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#177 May 06 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
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For the record, except for a few cases, I think the US is well past this number by a pretty significant magnitude.


Understatement of the year. :P


Well, it is a different number than the amount we outspend other countries by, since we have an incredibly wasteful defense triad.
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#178 May 06 2011 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Can anyone honestly argue that the Democratic party is *not* heavily about creating laws designed to impose specific social outcomes?

...Gbaji asked as Boehner prepares to spend millions of dollars on defending DOMA :D


Guess I should have read farther first. Um... That falls under the heading of opposing something the Dems are trying to do. Doesn't count. Find a social outcome the GOP wants to achieve for which they attempt to pass laws in order to create said outcome.
Abstinence only education

If you don't think that's trying to create a social outcome you are delusional

Edited, May 6th 2011 9:29pm by Sweetums
#179 May 07 2011 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
You don't want the minimum effective number of military forces, you want a bit above that, otherwise it incentivizes competing forces to overproduce such that it is no longer the minimum effective number.

It's a semantic point here, but I think it's one worth making. That's still the minimum number. Whatever the minimum amount is required to achieve a reasonable level of safety--however you choose to define a "reasonable level"--is the minimum amount. Tautologically, the minimum amount required to defend ourselves must provide defense, and if it doesn't then it was never the minimum amount.

I'm disappointed I haven't received a response from from Kaolian or any of the conservative leaning posters. I think the tpyical conservative or perhaps even independent view on liberals is that that are soft when it comes to the military for moral or ethical reasons, when my argument is that completely from the perspective of maximizing military strength (in a "present value" sense).
#180 May 07 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
You don't want the minimum effective number of military forces, you want a bit above that, otherwise it incentivizes competing forces to overproduce such that it is no longer the minimum effective number.

It's a semantic point here, but I think it's one worth making. That's still the minimum number. Whatever the minimum amount is required to achieve a reasonable level of safety--however you choose to define a "reasonable level"--is the minimum amount. Tautologically, the minimum amount required to defend ourselves must provide defense, and if it doesn't then it was never the minimum amount.

I'm disappointed I haven't received a response from from Kaolian or any of the conservative leaning posters. I think the tpyical conservative or perhaps even independent view on liberals is that that are soft when it comes to the military for moral or ethical reasons, when my argument is that completely from the perspective of maximizing military strength (in a "present value" sense).


Yep, but defense isn't necessarily a binary, you don't have to win for defense to have been sufficient, nor must you lose for it to have failed you.

Keep in mind also, that we are military liberals in the sense of general social outcomes, as if people like us ran the various countries militaries we'd end up with some of the most brutally effective response driven fighting forces, with much higher average nuclear response capabilities.

I'm sorry I'm ruining your plan. It was a good analogy.
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#181 May 07 2011 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Post-Moderns

13% of the public
What They Believe

* Generally supportive of government, though more conservative on race policies and the safety net
* Strongly supportive of regulation and environmental protection
* Most (56%) say Wall Street helps the economy more than it hurts
* Very liberal on social issues, including same-sex marriage
* One of the least religious groups: nearly a third are unaffiliated with any religious tradition
* Favor the use of diplomacy rather than force

Who They Are

* The youngest of the typology groups: 32% under age 30
* A majority are non-Hispanic white and have at least some college experience
* Half live in either the Northeast or the West
* A majority (58%) live in the suburbs
* 63% use social networking
* One-in-five regularly listen to NPR; 14% regularly watch The Daily Show


I actually favor force over diplomacy but other than that it's pretty much dead on.


Edit: Oooh, another.

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -4.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.67

My Political Compass


Edited, May 7th 2011 4:17pm by ShadorVIII
#182 May 07 2011 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Yep, but defense isn't necessarily a binary, you don't have to win for defense to have been sufficient, nor must you lose for it to have failed you.

It's binary in that you either meet the criteria you have established for a "reasonable defense" or you don't. You do have to win, with the word win being defined however you see fit.
#183 May 08 2011 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Can anyone honestly argue that the Democratic party is *not* heavily about creating laws designed to impose specific social outcomes?

...Gbaji asked as Boehner prepares to spend millions of dollars on defending DOMA :D


Guess I should have read farther first. Um... That falls under the heading of opposing something the Dems are trying to do. Doesn't count. Find a social outcome the GOP wants to achieve for which they attempt to pass laws in order to create said outcome.
Abstinence only education

If you don't think that's trying to create a social outcome you are delusional

Edited, May 6th 2011 9:29pm by Sweetums


He's probably say that it's not "changing a social outcome, just maintaining social integrity."
#184 May 08 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
Allegory wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I'm pretty certain not all you democrats are completely against any form of a military for one.

I don't know how other Democrats feel, but I see military allocation as a question of sustainability and growth. The concept is demonstrated fairly well in most RTS games. Pumping too many resources early on into your military strength slows down your economy, which in turn reduces your future military might. Typically you want to have the minimum number of units required to defend yourself so that you can pump the rest of your resources into growth. I see the goal as to maintain a minimum level of defense while building up the most fundamental force responsible for your growth. Building fighters now make you stronger in the present, but it takes resources away from conducting fighter research, which will give you strong fighters later on. Pumping funds into fighter research gives you stronger fighters in a few years, but it takes away from pumping money into infrastructure to increase the strength of your economy and thus increase the amount of money you can pump into fighter research, which increase the strength of your fighters later on. However pumping money into purely infrastructure projects takes away from resources into education, which slows the growth of your economy, which slows the growth of your fighter research, which detracts from the quality and number of fighters you can field.

I wouldn't want the U.S. to be stronger now when it means that ultimately it will be weaker in the next decades.

The benefits of being aggressive and proactive with your military also decrease as the number of opponents increase. In Risk it's a bad idea to spend all of your armies taking out a rival while another one sits there building up troops waiting for you to weaken yourself. Soft power is real power, because you want other people to spend their resources fighting your enemies for you.

The current U.S. military strategy is awful. We make absolute gains, but suffer comparative losses. We weaken ourselves to weaken one enemy, while other enemies stay the same or grow stronger. Nation building makes us weaker. Having too large of an army makes us weaker.


An obvious problem with the analogy is that, in most RTS games, military research and capability is divorced from actual combat (in that it does not improve either).

Of course, no analogy bears close analysis.

Edited, May 8th 2011 5:52pm by Kavekk
#185 May 09 2011 at 6:00 AM Rating: Default
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I started it with an open mind realizing that it isn't "perfect", but I had to stop at question 3 or 4. That is indeed a horrible written quiz. At least have a neutral answer available.
The point isn't to ask perfect questions though, the point is to analyse people. Do the quiz and see if it succeeds in doing that. Remember this aren't the same kind of questions you'd ask someone to personally figure them out. I'd be curious to see your result.

Oh and I'm post modern.

Edited, May 5th 2011 10:11am by Xsarus


Even so, that is a poor way to analyze people. This goes back to the argument I was having with Bsphil about bad stats. You can't corner someone into answering a way they normally wouldn't and then claim that it is representative. The questions don't have to specific to an exact belief/solution, but at least generic enough to where your answer might fit under a certain selection.. I think the second quiz does a much better job.

Anyways, I'll do both quizzes just for you...

Quiz 1:

http://people-press.org/typology/quiz/?result#new-coalition-democrats wrote:
New Coalition Democrats

10% of the public
What They Believe

Strongly pro-government
Upbeat about the country's ability to solve problems and an individual's ability to get ahead through hard work
Approve of regulation and environmental protection
More positive about business than other Democratic-oriented groups
Generally liberal on racial issues
Hospitable to immigrants: 78% believe they strengthen society
Very religious and socially conservative

Who They Are

56% are Democrats
Majority-minority group: 34% white, 30% black and 26% Latino
About three-in-ten are first or second generation Americans
55% have only a high school education or less
23% are not registered to vote
Only 34% read a daily newspaper
Half are regular volunteers for charity or non-profit groups

Quiz 2
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test wrote:
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64


That's a pretty level-headed score in my opinion..

Edited, May 9th 2011 2:06pm by Almalieque
#186 May 09 2011 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test wrote:
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64


That's a pretty level-headed score in my opinion.
So you think this is an accurate portrayal of your views? Take everyone's money through taxation then tell them how to live what's left of their lives? At least you're not Shador, you'll always have the going for you.
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#187 May 09 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
http://www.politicalcompass.org/test wrote:
Economic Left/Right: -1.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.64


That's a pretty level-headed score in my opinion.
So you think this is an accurate portrayal of your views? Take everyone's money through taxation then tell them how to live what's left of their lives? At least you're not Shador, you'll always have the going for you.


Sure why not, what's the problem?
#188 May 09 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Sure why not, what's the problem?
If you're happy with it, fine. I'm just anti-authoritarian. I think we need little to stop complete chaos, but that's very limited. Left or right on the taxation scale isn't an issue for me, its the dictatorships that bother me, not that your score puts you near that, but...
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#189 May 09 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure why not, what's the problem?


The telling people how to live their lives part. Also, whether the tax part is a problem or not really depends on how much you think taxes should be raised, are we talking small single digit percentages here, or are we talking extravagant unnecessary tax hikes?
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#190 May 09 2011 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Driftwood wrote:
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Sure why not, what's the problem?


The telling people how to live their lives part. Also, whether the tax part is a problem or not really depends on how much you think taxes should be raised, are we talking small single digit percentages here, or are we talking extravagant unnecessary tax hikes?
He wasn't even middle left, so I'm guessing small tax hikes, when adequately justified.
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#191 May 09 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Driftwood wrote:
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Sure why not, what's the problem?


The telling people how to live their lives part. Also, whether the tax part is a problem or not really depends on how much you think taxes should be raised, are we talking small single digit percentages here, or are we talking extravagant unnecessary tax hikes?
He wasn't even middle left, so I'm guessing small tax hikes, when adequately justified.


This...

I don't believe the government should have TOTAL control, hence why my score was 1.64, but I think there should be more than minimal government interaction, but I'm not 100% sure on how much. I just know if certain things weren't mandated, people would or wouldn't do certain things that we take for granted,i.e. minimum wage.
#192 May 09 2011 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
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He wasn't even middle left, so I'm guessing small tax hikes, when adequately justified.


Eh, fair enough.

My results.
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Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#193 May 09 2011 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't believe the government should have TOTAL control, hence why my score was 1.64, but I think there should be more than minimal government interaction, but I'm not 100% sure on how much. I just know if certain things weren't mandated, people would or wouldn't do certain things that we take for granted,i.e. minimum wage.


Hmm, I can sort of see your point there, though you could be a little more clear about the last sentence.
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Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#194 May 09 2011 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Driftwood wrote:
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I don't believe the government should have TOTAL control, hence why my score was 1.64, but I think there should be more than minimal government interaction, but I'm not 100% sure on how much. I just know if certain things weren't mandated, people would or wouldn't do certain things that we take for granted,i.e. minimum wage.


Hmm, I can sort of see your point there, though you could be a little more clear about the last sentence.


Meaning, if the government didn't mandate a certain pay wage, you can rest assured that people would be paid way below the minimum wage. Just look at the illegal immigration work force problem. That doesn't just happen in the U.S., that's everywhere. If you allow businesses to only pay people nickles and dimes off of what they make, they'll do it and they'll be successful because there will always be people unfortunate enough to need that money.
#195 May 09 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Meaning, if the government didn't mandate a certain pay wage, you can rest assured that people would be paid way below the minimum wage. Just look at the illegal immigration work force problem. That doesn't just happen in the U.S., that's everywhere. If you allow businesses to only pay people nickles and dimes off of what they make, they'll do it and they'll be successful because there will always be people unfortunate enough to need that money.


Assuming that you're saying that that's why we need the minimum wage laws, then I agree completely. The big question is, what constitutes a fair minimum wage? Personally, I think that it should rise with inflation, and the prices of the basic necessities and cost of utilities.
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I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#196 May 09 2011 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Driftwood wrote:
Assuming that you're saying that that's why we need the minimum wage laws, then I agree completely. The big question is, what constitutes a fair minimum wage? Personally, I think that it should rise with inflation, and the prices of the basic necessities and cost of utilities.
Its a good thing government moves slower than that though, because if it did move with inflation you'd see inflation jump far quicker.
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#197 May 09 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Its a good thing government moves slower than that though, because if it did move with inflation you'd see inflation jump far quicker.


True enough, the problem is that it tends to move slower than it needs to. I'll point out British Columbia and Alberta as examples of this. Things cost more there, but they pay the smallest minimum wage at $8.75 and $8.80 respectively. For comparison, here in Ontario, the minimum wage is $10.25.
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Alan Watts wrote:
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Eske wrote:
I've always read Driftwood as the straight man in varus' double act. It helps if you read all of his posts in the voice of Droopy Dog.
#198 May 09 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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Driftwood wrote:
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Its a good thing government moves slower than that though, because if it did move with inflation you'd see inflation jump far quicker.


True enough, the problem is that it tends to move slower than it needs to. I'll point out British Columbia and Alberta as examples of this. Things cost more there, but they pay the smallest minimum wage at $8.75 and $8.80 respectively. For comparison, here in Ontario, the minimum wage is $10.25.
It's hard to tie in wage with inflation.

Inflation is calculated differently by different entities but is usually based on the price trends of only certain goods. It's a moving target. It can also be artificially manipulated.

I think you'd be better off tying it in to the cost of living.

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#199 May 09 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
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Driftwood wrote:
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Its a good thing government moves slower than that though, because if it did move with inflation you'd see inflation jump far quicker.


True enough, the problem is that it tends to move slower than it needs to. I'll point out British Columbia and Alberta as examples of this. Things cost more there, but they pay the smallest minimum wage at $8.75 and $8.80 respectively. For comparison, here in Ontario, the minimum wage is $10.25.
Alberta's minimum wage is probably fine. In cities like Edmonton and Calgary where costs of living are higher, places that otherwise pay minimum wage pay more simply because they have to, or else they get no staff. Smaller towns where living costs are lower, the minimum wage is probably fine. This is based off my time in Calgary, which was pre-2008/09, so things could have changed.

Edited, May 9th 2011 11:14am by Uglysasquatch
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#200 May 09 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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Definitely not the case in the US, but our minimum wages are a state issue with an absolute minimum set by the federal gov't.

The irony? The minumum wage of NJ, which has one of the highest costs of living in the US, is technically below federal. They still have to pay the federal wage (which surpassed theirs a year or two ago), but it's still on the books at $7.10/hour.

/sigh
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#201 May 09 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
At least you're not Shador, you'll always have the going for you.


WTF? My score was middle left and only very mildly authoritarian. Isn't that about normal around here?

Edit: In fact, glancing at their page again, the closest historical figure to me is Ghandi. I'm a slightly more authoritarin Ghandi.

Edited, May 9th 2011 1:35pm by ShadorVIII
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