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#452 May 04 2011 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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It was more of a direct "attack" on the people in this forum who started screaming "OMG He can only mean invasion!! How wrong!! How little he knows!!" when Obama made those remarks back in 2007.

If those people happened to be primarily Republican, then I guess it's mainly Republicans now trying to scramble and cover for themselves instead of just admitting that they were wrong.
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#453 May 04 2011 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
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Not to put too fine a point on it, but we did, in fact, invade Pakistan. We left shortly there after, but it was an invasion.
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#454 May 04 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
but it was an invasion.

In the same sense as Gbaji's "If you pick an apple instead of grapes, it's discrimination!" argument, I guess.

What occurred was not what anyone commonly refers to as an "invasion" regardless of technical accuracy.
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#455 May 05 2011 at 12:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone else seen the new pictures of the helicopter tail they have been showing? Turns out it was a highly classified "stealth" low radar low noise helicopter that was half RAH-66 Comanche, half Blackhawk.
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#456 May 05 2011 at 2:06 AM Rating: Good
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Highly suspect, Kao. Needs to be further vetted for accuracy. The word we got here in the 'Stan was that it was a CH-47 that went down.
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#457 May 05 2011 at 4:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Are you honestly suggesting that you didn't post that statement as a contrast to Republicans? You didn't mean "Good thing we elected Obama, because he promised to do this sort of attack and the Republican's were against it!"? Cause that sure seemed to be your intent to me.


Not speaking for Joph here, but my point of view is that many people on the right were vocal about, shall we say, doubting that Obama would use the military in this way. Those are the guys who are now saying that, for example, the President deserves no credit for the operation, that it was purely military and he had nothing to do with it.

As for helicopters, I can't believe those things EVER stay up.

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#458 May 05 2011 at 6:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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The other 2008 general election candidate for president, John McCain, stated on several occasions that he would not send Special Ops into Pakistan to get bin Laden without Pakistan's permission, even if he knew exactly where bin Laden was.

One can sit now and say "Well, he would have!" except there's absolutely no evidence to support this.
CNN 2007 wrote:
"Sen. John McCain condemned Mike Huckabee Monday for saying that, as president, he would strike at terrorists inside Pakistan's borders with or without permission from the country's leadership... Sen. Barack Obama made similar comments about Pakistan in August, which McCain criticized at the time as irresponsible, as did several of Obama's Democratic rivals."
Political wire wrote:
In July 2008, Larry King asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), "If you were president and knew that bin Laden was in Pakistan, you know where, would you have U.S. forces go in after him?"

McCain said he would not.

"Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why: because Pakistan is a sovereign nation."
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#459 May 05 2011 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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I think in this case any protest Pakistan could possibly give over the "invasion" is drowned out by the fact he was living in the suburbs of a major city, chilling less than a mile away from the military academy.

US: If you guys have him, we're gonna take him.
Pakistan: We don't know where he is. We'll help you look.
US: (figures out where he is, says NOTHING)
Pakistan: Nope, no bin Laden here. (Looks under the nearest tribal mountain) **** he's good!
US: Uh, we found him. *YOINK* Dude, he was in your living room.
Pakistan: Oh my! Uhhhh however did he get in there! *whistles innocently*
US: Yeah, whatever. Thanks for your lack of help here guys.
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#460varusword75, Posted: May 05 2011 at 7:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Kao,
#461varusword75, Posted: May 05 2011 at 7:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#462 May 05 2011 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Clinton was wrong too. Did you think it would bother me to say that? But I didn't support her in the primary and she wasn't a general election candidate.
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#463varusword75, Posted: May 05 2011 at 7:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#464 May 05 2011 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Yet you defended Clintons inaction.

lolwut?
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#465varusword75, Posted: May 05 2011 at 8:06 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#466 May 05 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:
lolwut?


That's kind of how I feel trying to decide which of the 4 stories that has been put by the administration is accurate.



Did you see the staged photo of their reaction?


I didn't see that, those bastards! Link?
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#467 May 05 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Good
Can't we all just agree that the world is a better place without Usama in it?

Let's have a smoke, lean back, & enjoy the afterglow of this fantastically executed (-minus one very expensive chopper) military action.

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#468 May 05 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
That's kind of how I feel trying to decide which of the 4 stories that has been put by the administration is accurate.

I was more surprised that anyone would seize upon reports in the first hours after a military event and assume that they're accurate.
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#469 May 05 2011 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:
lolwut?


That's kind of how I feel trying to decide which of the 4 stories that has been put by the administration is accurate.



Did you see the staged photo of their reaction?



If it was staged, Obama would have been in front of the computer, any computer. He was not in front of a computer at all. Instead, he was just sort of sitting off to the side looking like he needed a stiff drink.

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#470 May 05 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Instead, he was just sort of sitting off to the side looking like he needed a stiff drink.
After two years of Birther conspiracy theorists, and the realization of 6 years of Deather conspiracy theorists, you'd want a drink, too.
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#471 May 06 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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LOL. I wish this was my Facebook friend. :(
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#472 May 06 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
I think in this case any protest Pakistan could possibly give over the "invasion" is drowned out by the fact he was living in the suburbs of a major city, chilling less than a mile away from the military academy.

US: If you guys have him, we're gonna take him.
Pakistan: We don't know where he is. We'll help you look.
US: (figures out where he is, says NOTHING)
Pakistan: Nope, no bin Laden here. (Looks under the nearest tribal mountain) **** he's good!
US: Uh, we found him. *YOINK* Dude, he was in your living room.
Pakistan: Oh my! Uhhhh however did he get in there! *whistles innocently*
US: Yeah, whatever. Thanks for your lack of help here guys.


My take on it went like this:

US: Hey, did you know that bin Laden was inside your country?
Pakistan: What?
US: Yeah, he had an estate in the suburbs.
Pakistan: bin Laden's not in Pakistan.
US: No, not anymore...
Pakistan: Huh?
US: Bye.
Pakistan: ???
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#473 May 06 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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In Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, born and raised
In Afghanistan where I spent most of my days
Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool
And all shooting some doods outside of Kabul
When a couple of Americans, they were up to no good
Started making trouble in my neighborhood

I got in one little fight And I got Scared
I Lived in a cave for about seven or eight years,
was tired of sitting on a dirt floor and switched gears
Left Afghanistan for Abbottabad, I was finally there.
Though I should have stayed home Instead,
as the Americans found me and now I’m dead

Edited, May 6th 2011 10:05pm by lolgaxe
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#474 May 06 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Highly suspect, Kao. Needs to be further vetted for accuracy. The word we got here in the 'Stan was that it was a CH-47 that went down.


I dunno, i'd be willing to bet money it was a blackhawk derivitive at this point. I Think I finally figured out whats been bugging me about the tail case and the wierd bulge at the bottom though. It's a Coanda effect tail.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?197635-The-mysterious-helicopter-involved-in-the-Osama-Bin-Laden-raid/page34
[img]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1422/800xmt.jpg[/img]

I'd bet the tail rotor wasn't even spun up when they were hovering. It probably only kicks in when the rotor head speed starts to exceed the ability of the coanda thrust to provide stationkeeping. It would explain the much larger elevator plane somewhat, and why it looks swept forward towards the leading edge. I'd be willing to bet they are ducting the main powerplant exhaust all the way out the tail to cool it and still make use of the residual thrust. There's definitly a drive linkage / torque tube heading to the tail, but it looks like there might be a piece of ducting there too. Or maybe they are just using an internal impeller.
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#475 May 06 2011 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
My take on it went like this:

US: Hey, did you know that Bin Laden was inside your country?
Pakistan: What?
US: What ain't no country I ever heard of. Do they speak English in What?
Pakistan: What?
US: English mother @#%^er, do you speak it?
Pakistan: What? No, I don't speak English, can you talk in Urdu?
US: Say What again. I dare you. I double dare you.
Pakistan: What?
US: (Boom) And that's confirmation. he's just been taken out, and is being airlifted for a sea burial.
Pakistan: What?
US: Yeah, he had an estate in the suburbs.
Pakistan: Bin Laden doesn't live here, stop calling, you crazy.
US: No, not anymore...
Pakistan: Huh?
US: Bye.
Pakistan: ???



Well, we were talking to them in English. They had no idea what we were yelling into the receiver.

Edited, May 7th 2011 1:59am by Timelordwho
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#476 May 07 2011 at 12:48 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Totem wrote:
Highly suspect, Kao. Needs to be further vetted for accuracy. The word we got here in the 'Stan was that it was a CH-47 that went down.


I dunno, i'd be willing to bet money it was a blackhawk derivitive at this point. I Think I finally figured out whats been bugging me about the tail case and the wierd bulge at the bottom though. It's a Coanda effect tail.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?197635-The-mysterious-helicopter-involved-in-the-Osama-Bin-Laden-raid/page34
[img]http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1422/800xmt.jpg[/img]

I'd bet the tail rotor wasn't even spun up when they were hovering. It probably only kicks in when the rotor head speed starts to exceed the ability of the coanda thrust to provide stationkeeping. It would explain the much larger elevator plane somewhat, and why it looks swept forward towards the leading edge. I'd be willing to bet they are ducting the main powerplant exhaust all the way out the tail to cool it and still make use of the residual thrust. There's definitly a drive linkage / torque tube heading to the tail, but it looks like there might be a piece of ducting there too. Or maybe they are just using an internal impeller.


Err...sure. So, were all those technical-sounding things that you mentioned designed to make it quieter or something?
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#477 May 07 2011 at 1:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:

Err...sure. So, were all those technical-sounding things that you mentioned designed to make it quieter or something?


If they did what i suspect they did, much, and have the added benifit of lowering the infrared signature of the engines at the same time.
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#478 May 07 2011 at 1:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Just looking through CNN and these two popped up:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/07/afghanistan.taliban.bin.laden/

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/06/pakistan.bin.laden/index.html?hpt=T2

I would assume both the Taliban and Al'Qaeda confirmation would be enough. Probably not enough for the deathers though, at least until they see the body in person.
#479 May 07 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Paskil wrote:
Probably not enough for the deathers though, at least until they see the body in person.
Doubt that, what with Kennedy. People that want a conspiracy will find a conspiracy, no matter what.
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#480 May 07 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Paskil wrote:
Probably not enough for the deathers though, at least until they see the body in person.
Doubt that, what with Kennedy. People that want a conspiracy will find a conspiracy, no matter what.

Well, why don't we just send all the Deathers to the bottom of the Arabian Sea so they can look for themselves.
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#481 May 07 2011 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, why don't we just send all the Deathers to the bottom of the Arabian Sea so they can look for themselves.


I'd just like to say, I approve of this plan.
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#482 May 07 2011 at 11:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lulz.

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#483 May 09 2011 at 2:51 AM Rating: Good
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Kao wrote:
I dunno, i'd be willing to bet money it was a blackhawk derivitive at this point. I Think I finally figured out whats been bugging me about the tail case and the wierd bulge at the bottom though. It's a Coanda effect tail.

I'd bet the tail rotor wasn't even spun up when they were hovering. It probably only kicks in when the rotor head speed starts to exceed the ability of the coanda thrust to provide stationkeeping. It would explain the much larger elevator plane somewhat, and why it looks swept forward towards the leading edge. I'd be willing to bet they are ducting the main powerplant exhaust all the way out the tail to cool it and still make use of the residual thrust. There's definitly a drive linkage / torque tube heading to the tail, but it looks like there might be a piece of ducting there too. Or maybe they are just using an internal impeller.


...seems like modified UH-60

Seems like someone said, "Hey, we got these rides out back. Need a little dusting off, but work fine".
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#484 May 09 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Default
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Meant to reply to this last week, so here:

Jophiel wrote:
The other 2008 general election candidate for president, John McCain, stated on several occasions that he would not send Special Ops into Pakistan to get bin Laden without Pakistan's permission, even if he knew exactly where bin Laden was.

One can sit now and say "Well, he would have!" except there's absolutely no evidence to support this.
CNN 2007 wrote:
"Sen. John McCain condemned Mike Huckabee Monday for saying that, as president, he would strike at terrorists inside Pakistan's borders with or without permission from the country's leadership... Sen. Barack Obama made similar comments about Pakistan in August, which McCain criticized at the time as irresponsible, as did several of Obama's Democratic rivals."
Political wire wrote:
In July 2008, Larry King asked Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), "If you were president and knew that bin Laden was in Pakistan, you know where, would you have U.S. forces go in after him?"

McCain said he would not.

"Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why: because Pakistan is a sovereign nation."


That's a gross misinterpretation of what was said. He did not say that he wouldn't send special ops into Pakistan without permission. He said that it was irresponsible for a candidate to say that he would ahead of time. His statement to Larry King that he "wouldn't go there" is about not answering the question because Pakistan is a sovereign nation, not about whether he would or wouldn't order such a thing if it was warranted.

His point then, and the reason Obama was criticized about this, is that it's wrong for a presidential candidate to make such a proclamation. What you don't want to have happen is for a president to be sitting in the situation room with a set of decisions before him with serious political and human life ramifications factoring a statement he made to an interviewer while running for office 3 years earlier into his decision making process. That was the reason for the criticism of Obama's statement. It was not about whether we should or should not take the very action he was proposing (duh!), but about whether we should be saying what we would do in said future hypothetical situation ahead of time.

Edited, May 9th 2011 6:03pm by gbaji
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#485 May 09 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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So it wasn't intended to be a factual statement.
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#486 May 09 2011 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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When I look at the word osama I sometimes see the word obama... terrible but it is my brain's fault:

Quote:
Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn’t mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
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#487 May 09 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
So it wasn't intended to be a factual statement.


No. He didn't actually say what is being claimed. Not even remotely the same thing.


Even before Joph started slinging around quotes, my response was that he had misrepresented what conservatives cared about (shocking, I know!). It was not about opposition to taking out a terrorist leader if the opportunity presented itself, but that Obama was effectively nailing himself down in terms of military options when the first interviewer came along and asked the question.

It was about the inexperience that showed. Joph's repeating the tail end of what was silly media spin back when it happened and is no less silly today.
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#488 May 09 2011 at 8:14 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
but that Obama was effectively nailing himself down in terms of military options when the first interviewer came along and asked the question.
And yet it worked. Really well, too.
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#489 May 09 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
So it wasn't intended to be a factual statement.


No. He didn't actually say what is being claimed. Not even remotely the same thing.


Even before Joph started slinging around quotes, my response was that he had misrepresented what conservatives cared about (shocking, I know!). It was not about opposition to taking out a terrorist leader if the opportunity presented itself, but that Obama was effectively nailing himself down in terms of military options when the first interviewer came along and asked the question.

It was about the inexperience that showed. Joph's repeating the tail end of what was silly media spin back when it happened and is no less silly today.

I'd be more concerned about a leader who believed that his answer given in an interview should prohibit him from ever making a contrary decision down the road if the evidence should point him towards that option.
#490 May 09 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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How dare a politician make a claim and follow through with it!
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#491 May 09 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That's a gross misinterpretation of what was said. He did not say that he wouldn't send special ops into Pakistan without permission. He said that it was irresponsible for a candidate to say that he would ahead of time.

I suppose wishy-washy non-answers work too when you're unable to commit to getting the job done.

Edited, May 9th 2011 9:29pm by Jophiel
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#493 May 10 2011 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
but that Obama was effectively nailing himself down in terms of military options when the first interviewer came along and asked the question.
And yet it worked. Really well, too.


It's not about the specific question. Any president of any party would have done the exact same thing Obama did under those circumstances. Is anyone seriously suggesting otherwise?

It's about the stupidity of answering the question in the first place. Because what if the next interviewer asks a question that isn't so obvious and easy? What if he follows up with a question like "Ok. What if you had actionable intelligence that OBL was hiding in the UK?", or "What if he's hiding in China?". Now what does he do? Say that he wouldn't order an attack? Does the interviewer then get to go through the entire list of nations of the world and force the president to tell us all which countries he'd be willing to invade to kill a top Al-queda member and which he wouldn't?


It's just a dumb thing to do. Everyone else in the political arena understood this. Obama didn't. He's fortunately learned since then, but it was absolutely correct to criticize him for saying it.
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#494 May 10 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Any president of any party would have done the exact same thing Obama did under those circumstances. Is anyone seriously suggesting otherwise?

It's safe to say that we're lacking any evidence to the contrary.

Good thing you've cried so hard, so many times about Obama's supposed "non-answers" as you praise McCain for being a world-class pussy and refusing to commit but you're just SURE you know what he would have done.
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#495 May 10 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
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It's just a dumb thing to do. Everyone else in the political arena understood this. Obama didn't. He's fortunately learned since then, but it was absolutely correct to criticize him for saying it.


Except that he wasn't lying. And his ratings have jumped because of it.

And McCain's response was that OBL wasn't a priority. He didn't say "only if we had sufficient evidence." He said he wouldn't do it. Stop acting like he just declined to answer the question. He DID answer it--he said no.
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#496 May 10 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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What if he follows up with a question like "Ok. What if you had actionable intelligence that OBL was hiding in the UK?",


Good question. And it should be asked, because theres a lot of people in the world atm who are wondering quite how far the US is prepared to go with this.
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#497 May 10 2011 at 3:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
Quote:
What if he follows up with a question like "Ok. What if you had actionable intelligence that OBL was hiding in the UK?",


Good question. And it should be asked, because theres a lot of people in the world atm who are wondering quite how far the US is prepared to go with this.

If he was hiding in the UK, I have no trouble believing we wouldn't have needed to go in and get him. He'd be just as dead with different shooters.
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#498 May 10 2011 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Quote:
What if he follows up with a question like "Ok. What if you had actionable intelligence that OBL was hiding in the UK?",
Good question. And it should be asked, because theres a lot of people in the world atm who are wondering quite how far the US is prepared to go with this.
Depends if the UK was just as inept at finding OBL as Pakistan, assuming they were even trying. I agree its an ugly issue, one I'm not particularly proud of, but you gotta put the line somewhere.
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#499 May 10 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
If he was hiding in the UK, I have no trouble believing we wouldn't have needed to go in and get him. He'd be just as dead with different shooters.

Pretty much. The Pakistan question was a question because the Pakistan-US "alliance" under Bush was a complete joke and foreign aid boondoggle. It's still a joke but Obama has done dramatically more to get a little value out of our billions in aid than his predecessor.

Edited, May 10th 2011 4:06pm by Jophiel
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#500 May 10 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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What if he was being hidden by the Saudis?
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#501 May 10 2011 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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paulsol wrote:
Quote:
What if he follows up with a question like "Ok. What if you had actionable intelligence that OBL was hiding in the UK?",
Good question. And it should be asked, because theres a lot of people in the world atm who are wondering quite how far the US is prepared to go with this.
Pakistan and the UK aren't equivalents.
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