Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Atheism or agnosticism?Follow

#552 May 05 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Ailitardif wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Ailitardif wrote:
Marriage to anyone yes...not sure why you want "anything" included though...


Because they are people who claim to be in love with objects and they are prevented from marriage benefits based on current laws.


Get back to me when objects are people.
Alma seems to believe that objects have the same level of sentience as homosexuals.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#553 May 05 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,642 posts
Almalieque wrote:
How not? They are both equally charged with the responsibility of raising the child. Each parent is doing different things to make that a success.


I've explained this to many times in so many posts, it's just not worth it. You know what I'm talking about. You disagree with me. Me saying it to you over and over so you can say, "NO! You're WRONG! That's not right!" is even more idiotic than responding to you in the first place.

Almalieque wrote:
You just admitted the connection in your prior post.


Connection =/= contradition.

Almalieque wrote:
Meaning just that. In those two scenarios, it is about as fair as you can get, but you have reasons against them. So, you can't simply say "oh, it can't ever be fair", you just have arguments against solutions that would make it fair or as fair as it can get.


It makes it more fair for the guy, less fair for the child and the woman. Therefore, I do not like your options, Sam I Am.

Almalieque wrote:
I didn't know English was that confusing. I presented two one sentence scenarios. You read them with predetermined thoughts of my argument. It happens all of the time on this forum. Nilatai and you have yet provided me a sentence that even implied that a man should have a say-so in the matter. If you provide a "confusing" sentence, then I'll concede to your accusations. Until then, I'm not going to apologize for your lack of comprehension.


Yeah, again. Explained it to you over and over, as has Nilatai. Your lack of comprehension isn't my issue. You've since explained to me that you don't think the father should have any say, but that the government should be the one that forces her to carry on an unwanted pregnancy. Ok, fine. Still idiotic, but ok. I misunderstood, as did everyone else reading your post, I understand now.

Almalieque wrote:
By that, you mean able to physically talk and express their opinion? Or do you mean actually having legal right to deny or attempt to deny an abortion?


Talking and expressing their opinion and the woman taking it into consideration.

Edited, May 5th 2011 10:05am by Belkira
#554 May 05 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
5,159 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Majivo wrote:
On an unrelated note to anything else happening, Alma, please quit citing your (alleged) comp sci degree as though it somehow makes you an expert in how physical sciences work. The fact that it has the world "science" in it is not related to the scientific method - at least not the parts of comp sci that you work on.


That was my point, thanks for stating that. Even if I were wrong on his accusation of the scientific terminology, that doesn't make me an idiot of ALL sciences. A geologist probably wouldn't be able to hold a conversation in Biology, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know anything about science.

First of all, you are an idiot in all sciences; this is a necessary subset of you being an idiot in all things in general. Second, your (alleged) knowledge of comp sci is one hundred percent irrelevant here. Therefore, please quit referring to it as if it matters one bit.
#555 May 05 2011 at 9:17 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Ailitardif wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Ailitardif wrote:
Marriage to anyone yes...not sure why you want "anything" included though...


Because they are people who claim to be in love with objects and they are prevented from marriage benefits based on current laws.


Get back to me when objects are people.


Get back to me when that somehow disqualifies the discrimination.

Nilatai wrote:
Okay. Why? Justify your position.


Your entire argument is based on "If you own it, then you you have COMPLETE ownership of it". Well, under that logic, the body is completely owned by the woman, therefore, she has a complete say in what she does with her body, (within already defined laws). The fetus, is owned by BOTH party members, so under your logic, the outcome of the fetus is determined by both party members. She can only have a total control over the fetus if she completely owns it.

Quote:
Oh good, you provided links. That still doesn't change that fact that your claim that theories arise from lack of facts is true, when in fact the exact opposite is.


Oh, really? I figured you would respond as such after I posted that...

Scientific theories are constructed to explain, predict, and master phenomena (e.g., inanimate things, events, or behavior of animals). A scientific theory can be thought of as a model of reality, and its statements as axioms of some axiomatic system. The aim of this construction is to create a formal system for which reality is the only model. The world is an interpretation (or model) of such scientific theories, only insofar as the sciences are true.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#556 May 05 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
50 posts
I find it hilarious that you still can't see why those quotes you provide don't support your statement that theories arise from lack of facts.
____________________________
"Cogito Ergo Sum" - Rene Descartes
#557 May 05 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
After Alma posted that definition which pretty much contradicts what he'd said, I'm fully convinced that he is in dire need of remedial reading classes, and that his alma mater's accreditation should be brought into question.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#558 May 05 2011 at 9:32 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Your entire argument is based on "If you own it, then you you have COMPLETE ownership of it". Well, under that logic, the body is completely owned by the woman, therefore, she has a complete say in what she does with her body, (within already defined laws). The fetus, is owned by BOTH party members, so under your logic, the outcome of the fetus is determined by both party members. She can only have a total control over the fetus if she completely owns it.
That's not my argument at all. My argument is you shouldn't force someone into submitting to the will of someone else, and that the rights of the woman trump the rights of the foetus. Want to know why? Because the woman is a sentient being with rights and the foetus simply isn't.

Almalieque wrote:
Quote:
Oh good, you provided links. That still doesn't change that fact that your claim that theories arise from lack of facts is true, when in fact the exact opposite is.


Oh, really? I figured you would respond as such after I posted that...

Scientific theories are constructed to explain, predict, and master phenomena (e.g., inanimate things, events, or behavior of animals). A scientific theory can be thought of as a model of reality, and its statements as axioms of some axiomatic system. The aim of this construction is to create a formal system for which reality is the only model. The world is an interpretation (or model) of such scientific theories, only insofar as the sciences are true.
Oh good, you posted another link that doesn't support your statement that theories arise from lack of facts...

We learn facts, and we create models from those facts. The model can then be used to make predictions based on the original data. Any new facts that do not completely align with the model can be integrated to improve said model. That is what a theory is, Alma. Can you see why your statement is completely fallacious now?

Edited, May 5th 2011 11:36am by Nilatai
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#559varusword75, Posted: May 05 2011 at 9:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Guenny,
#560 May 05 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
******
43,650 posts
That's not even close to how that phrase works.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#561 May 05 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
A foetus is like the potentially sweet classic car you and a friend split costs on. You decide to keep it in the garage, mainly because your friend doesn't even have an assigned parking space. Eventually, you're fucking sick of that pile of **** in your garage, but your friend insists that you keep it, and you really want to punch him because you just want your fucking garage back.

Oh, but a child isn't like a sweet classic car, you say?

I know! I actually want one.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#562 May 05 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
11,946 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Ailitardif wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Ailitardif wrote:
Marriage to anyone yes...not sure why you want "anything" included though...


Because they are people who claim to be in love with objects and they are prevented from marriage benefits based on current laws.


Get back to me when objects are people.


Get back to me when that somehow disqualifies the discrimination.

ITT, Alma suggests either:
A. Objects can consent, and/or
B. Gays are not people.
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#563 May 05 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Belkira wrote:
I've explained this to many times in so many posts, it's just not worth it. You know what I'm talking about. You disagree with me. Me saying it to you over and over so you can say, "NO! You're WRONG! That's not right!" is even more idiotic than responding to you in the first place.


Don't pretend that you weren't just saying "NO! You're wrong!". I was only mimicking you.


Belkira wrote:
Connection =/= contradition.


You're correct, it isn't. It's the connections that you made in your statements that lead to the contradiction.

Belkira wrote:
It makes it more fair for the guy, less fair for the child and the woman. Therefore, I do not like your options, Sam I Am.


Abortion isn't fair to the child, so that is a common factor. So in scenario 1, the woman does whatever she wants and the man does whatever he wants. In scenario 2, neither can do whatever they want.

Belkira wrote:
Yeah, again. Explained it to you over and over, as has Nilatai. Your lack of comprehension isn't my issue. You've since explained to me that you don't think the father should have any say, but that the government should be the one that forces her to carry on an unwanted pregnancy. Ok, fine. Still idiotic, but ok. I misunderstood, as did everyone else reading your post, I understand now.


In the past week, I admitted at least twice in using the word verbiage to explain my point. I have no problem doing it again, if that were the case. In this scenario, I don't see it. I asked you and Nilatai to show me where exactly my statements mislead you and both of you were unable to produce anything. At that point, I'm not going to admit to anything that you simply misunderstood.

Belkira wrote:
Talking and expressing their opinion and the woman taking it into consideration.


Wow, how generous of you to think it's fair to allow a man to talk....

Majivo wrote:
First of all, you are an idiot in all sciences; this is a necessary subset of you being an idiot in all things in general. Second, your (alleged) knowledge of comp sci is one hundred percent irrelevant here. Therefore, please quit referring to it as if it matters one bit.


Ahhh.. Here I thought that you were arguing objectively. I see now you're just emotionally lashing out of me because of your general dislike of me. You're just babbling stuff to hear yourself talk. The simple fact that you claim that Comp Sci is 100% irrelevant in a discussion of proofs and theories is evident enough of your idiocy.


____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#564 May 05 2011 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Nilatai wrote:
That's not my argument at all. My argument is you shouldn't force someone into submitting to the will of someone else, and that the rights of the woman trump the rights of the foetus. Want to know why? Because the woman is a sentient being with rights and the foetus simply isn't.


If that's the case, then the man has no say in the fetus. If you're saying that the woman can do whatever she wants to the fetus, then the responsibility is solely on her. If and only if the man has a say in the development of the fetus is the responsibility of the fetus split. With power, there's responsibility.

Nilatai wrote:
Oh good, you posted another link that doesn't support your statement that theories arise from lack of facts...

We learn facts, and we create models from those facts. The model can then be used to make predictions based on the original data. Any new facts that do not completely align with the model can be integrated to improve said model. That is what a theory is, Alma. Can you see why your statement is completely fallacious now?


/sigh... Let's take this one at a time...

Give me an example of a scientific fact and give me an example of a scientific theory and explain to me why they are what they are.

____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#565 May 05 2011 at 11:25 AM Rating: Good
******
43,650 posts
LockeColeMA wrote:
A. Objects can consent, and/or
B. Gays are not people.
I've never had a toaster say no to my Poptart.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#566 May 05 2011 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
11,946 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
A. Objects can consent, and/or
B. Gays are not people.
I've never had a toaster say no to my Poptart.


SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!
SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!
SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!

Didn't you ever have **** ed? Smiley: tongue

Edit: I have met people who legitimately believed that if a woman agrees to come back to your house for a drink after dinner, she is consenting to sex. Not even mean trashy folks; one was in fact a pretty normal guy. Well, he was Israeli, but mostly normal as any American. He was just raised that if a girl acts a certain way that she knows can be taken as sexual, it will be, and no one should act shocked about it.

Edited, May 5th 2011 1:31pm by LockeColeMA
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#567 May 05 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
LockeColeMA wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
A. Objects can consent, and/or
B. Gays are not people.
I've never had a toaster say no to my Poptart.


SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!
SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!
SILENCE IS NOT CONSENT!

Didn't you ever have **** ed? Smiley: tongue


Reminds of the propaganda the Army tries to sell about not being able to consent while drunk. I presented the situation where a drunk woman sexually approaches a sober man, who "silently fights back". The result, a double rape case. Completely idiotic.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#568 May 05 2011 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
We Does Not Hugglez
*****
10,245 posts
LockeColeMA wrote:
I have met people who legitimately believed that if a woman agrees to come back to your house for a drink after dinner, she is consenting to sex.

Wait, what? When did that stop being true? Hell, I always thought if I paid for dinner she owed me anyway.
____________________________
I had a very witty signature once, but apparently it offended the sensibilities of some of the frailer constitutions that frequent this particular internet message board.

[The rest of this message has been censored and I can't tell you what I actually think of you]
#569 May 05 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
11,946 posts
MoebiusLord wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
I have met people who legitimately believed that if a woman agrees to come back to your house for a drink after dinner, she is consenting to sex.

Wait, what? When did that stop being true? Hell, I always thought if I paid for dinner she owed me anyway.

I think he actually believed that too. Can't remember though, it was years ago.
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#570 May 05 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Almalieque wrote:
If that's the case, then the man has no say in the fetus. If you're saying that the woman can do whatever she wants to the fetus, then the responsibility is solely on her. If and only if the man has a say in the development of the fetus is the responsibility of the fetus split. With power, there's responsibility.
No the man has no say in whether the foetus continues to grow in the woman's uterus or not. While in an ideal situation couples should come to a consensus on the subject, ultimately the woman has the final say. A man should not and can not force her into keeping/aborting a pregnancy if that is counter to her wishes. Once that decision is out of the way(assuming the pregnancy is not terminated), both parents bare responsibility for supporting and raising the child. These are two separate issues.



Almalieque wrote:
/sigh... Let's take this one at a time...

Give me an example of a scientific fact and give me an example of a scientific theory and explain to me why they are what they are.

Oh goodie, you're going to teach me things. Okay, here we go!


Scientific fact - Evolution has taken place. We know this from fossil records, DNA sequencing, observations between closely related species, etcetera.

Scientific theory - The Theory of Evolution. This theory outlines the current knowledge and support for evolutionary biology, and is used to predict what results we can expect to find to support the facts. It also explains the mechanisms by which evolution can take place, such as natural selection.

More details can be found here.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#571 May 05 2011 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,642 posts
Almalieque wrote:
I was only mimicking you.


No, you were asking me to explain something. Keep up.

Almalieque wrote:
You're correct, it isn't. It's the connections that you made in your statements that lead to the contradiction.


It's really not, if you understand what I'm saying. Which it doesn't seem like you do.

Almalieque wrote:
Abortion isn't fair to the child, so that is a common factor. So in scenario 1, the woman does whatever she wants and the man does whatever he wants. In scenario 2, neither can do whatever they want.


At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it.

Almalieque wrote:
In the past week, I admitted at least twice in using the word verbiage to explain my point. I have no problem doing it again, if that were the case. In this scenario, I don't see it. I asked you and Nilatai to show me where exactly my statements mislead you and both of you were unable to produce anything. At that point, I'm not going to admit to anything that you simply misunderstood.


Who is asking you to admit to anything...? I explicitly stated that I misunderstood you, but I get it now. And yet, you're arguing with me...? /facepalm

Almalieque wrote:
Wow, how generous of you to think it's fair to allow a man to talk....


Yeah, it really doesn't matter what I say now. You are **** bent on disagreeing with me no matter what I say. It actually IS pretty generous, all things considered. As a woman, it is completely within my power to get pregnant, find out about it, get an abortion, and never, ever tell the person who impregnated me. However, in admitting that I am unlike the women who "use a pregnancy as a weapon" or a "way to make money," you respond cuttingly and suggest that it's not enough. Too bad, bud.
#572 May 05 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Nilatai wrote:
No the man has no say in whether the foetus continues to grow in the woman's uterus or not. While in an ideal situation couples should come to a consensus on the subject, ultimately the woman has the final say. A man should not and can not force her into keeping/aborting a pregnancy if that is counter to her wishes. Once that decision is out of the way(assuming the pregnancy is not terminated), both parents bare responsibility for supporting and raising the child. These are two separate issues.


That's your problem, they are not two separate issues, because that child was the same sack of cells earlier in her body. Just because you want to make an arbitrary distinction (i.e, tadpoles aren't frogs) doesn't change that.

If the woman has total control over the development of the fetus, she accepts total responsibility for the child if the man tells her ahead of time that he can not afford it. It's plain and simple.

Nilatai wrote:
Oh goodie, you're going to teach me things. Okay, here we go!


Scientific fact - Evolution has taken place. We know this from fossil records, DNA sequencing, observations between closely related species, etcetera.

Scientific theory - The Theory of Evolution. This theory outlines the current knowledge and support for evolutionary biology, and is used to predict what results we can expect to find to support the facts. It also explains the mechanisms by which evolution can take place, such as natural selection.


Great examples! You stated in your last post that these models of facts are used to make predictions. Furthermore, any new facts that contradict the model will be integrated and the model will be adjusted. Is that an accurate summary?
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#573 May 05 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Belkira wrote:
At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it
Stole my analogy biatch! D:
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#574 May 05 2011 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Belkira wrote:
No, you were asking me to explain something. Keep up.


I asked you to provide me proof of an accusation. Besides, that reference was to the "No, you're wrong" I replied that way only because you did.

Belkira wrote:
At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it.


You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't. Of course you do, that's the entire reason why you're having an abortion in the first place. We're talking about children, not animals or parasites. If that fetus weren't growing into a child, then you would have a point. Given that you made a conscious decision "Oh, snap, I don't want to have a CHILD", your action is a direct reflect on the future of the child.

Belkira wrote:
Yeah, it really doesn't matter what I say now. You are **** bent on disagreeing with me no matter what I say. It actually IS pretty generous, all things considered. As a woman, it is completely within my power to get pregnant, find out about it, get an abortion, and never, ever tell the person who impregnated me. However, in admitting that I am unlike the women who "use a pregnancy as a weapon" or a "way to make money," you respond cuttingly and suggest that it's not enough. Too bad, bud.


I'll give you credit there, that IS polite when you think of the absolute worst. At the same time, if you have ultimate power over the fetus, then the man is really irrelevant. I would assume that a woman would only discuss it with the man if she was unsure on what she what to do or planned on keeping it. I don't see her saying anything if she absolutely don't want it.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#575 May 05 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Almalieque wrote:
That's your problem, they are not two separate issues, because that child was the same sack of cells earlier in her body. Just because you want to make an arbitrary distinction (i.e, tadpoles aren't frogs) doesn't change that.

If the woman has total control over the development of the fetus, she accepts total responsibility for the child if the man tells her ahead of time that he can not afford it. It's plain and simple.
Tadpoles aren't frogs, though. You may as well be saying a foetus is a 50 year old. Doesn't make it true.

The distinction is anything but arbitrary. At 24 weeks, a foetus has proximately a 50% chance of survival outside of the womb, which before 24 weeks it does not have. This makes it a viable life form. Doesn't make my point that a foetus' rights don't supersede the mother's wrong either.

I have to ask a question here, and I want you to be honest. Were you, one of your friends or a family member trapped into paying for a child you don't want? Because that seems to be where all your arguments are coming from.



Almalieque wrote:
Great examples! You stated in your last post that these models of facts are used to make predictions. Furthermore, any new facts that contradict the model will be integrated and the model will be adjusted. Is that an accurate summary?
This is going to be good, I can tell. Yes, that's what I said.

Edited, May 5th 2011 2:28pm by Nilatai
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#576 May 05 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,642 posts
Nilatai wrote:
Belkira wrote:
At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it
Stole my analogy biatch! D:


I'm sorry. I admit I've been skipping some of your posts because I know that I agree with them. :(

Almalieque wrote:
You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't. Of course you do, that's the entire reason why you're having an abortion in the first place. We're talking about children, not animals or parasites. If that fetus weren't growing into a child, then you would have a point. Given that you made a conscious decision "Oh, snap, I don't want to have a CHILD", your action is a direct reflect on the future of the child.


Sure. But that also doesn't infringe on any rights of this not-yet-child, either. It can't be unfair to something that doesn't yet exist or has not yet developed.

Almalieque wrote:
I'll give you credit there, that IS polite when you think of the absolute worst. At the same time, if you have ultimate power over the fetus, then the man is really irrelevant. I would assume that a woman would only discuss it with the man if she was unsure on what she what to do or planned on keeping it. I don't see her saying anything if she absolutely don't want it.


I disagree. You're assuming an awful lot about the entire population of women in this country. If a man had gotten me pregnant and I didn't want a kid, I would still let him know what was going on. To me, it's his right (not in a legal way, of course) to know about this, and we can discuss what he wants and what I want. Ultimately, it's my decision. But if he can come up with a really excellent reason or somehow convince me that keeping the baby is a good idea, I'd be willing to hear him out.

I can only assume, but am willing to hear you say otherwise, that you feel that women are all this way because you think getting an abortion is an easy decision. It's certainly not. There may be a few women for which it is, but they are in the vast minority. Every woman I know, and while I have no evidence to this I can only assume that the huge majority of women consider an abortion a HUGE deal. They know EXACTLY what they're doing. They know EXACTLY what will happen to that clump of cells if she doesn't take any action to the contrary. They know that they have to live with their decision forever.
#577 May 05 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Belkira wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Belkira wrote:
At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it
Stole my analogy biatch! D:


I'm sorry. I admit I've been skipping some of your posts because I know that I agree with them. :(
Ish okay, I forgive you. It's a good analogy. :P
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#578 May 05 2011 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Nilatai wrote:
The distinction is anything but arbitrary. At 24 weeks, a foetus has proximately a 50% chance of survival outside of the womb, which before 24 weeks it does not have. This makes it a viable life form. Doesn't make my point that a foetus' rights don't supersede the mother's wrong either.


It is absolutely arbitrary as it's part of every person's development and life. All society has done was to pick a time in that life development to say it's ok to stop life. Everyone started from the same place, so it's completely arbitrary.

Nilatai wrote:
I have to ask a question here, and I want you to be honest. Were you, one of your friends or a family member trapped into paying for a child you don't want? Because that seems to be where all your arguments are coming from.


I wasn't, as for any real friends, none that I know of. I hear people complaining about child support all of the time, but none said that they didn't want the child.

Nilatai wrote:
This is going to be good, I can tell. Yes, that's what I said.


Slow down, don't jump ahead, that's how you always end up debating something that I never said.

Let's take the fact of "Evolution taking place" for example. Can there be any new information that doesn't align with the fact "Evolution took place",i.e. Evolution didn't take place, and still have the statement "Evolution took place" be considered a fact?

It's a little wordy, so let me know if it's written in a way hard to understand.

Belkira wrote:
Sure. But that also doesn't infringe on any rights of this not-yet-child, either. It can't be unfair to something that doesn't yet exist or has not yet developed.


The fact is, that is a stage of everyone's life. Just as I said above to Nilatai in this post. All you have done is picked an arbitrary time in a person's life and said "it's ok to prevent further life development in this stage". It doesn't matter if we developed from rocks. If it is known that our first stages of life are rocks and you have a rock that you know will turn into a person, by destroying that rock, you have made a conscious decision to end that life development.

So, it indeed becomes unfair when someone other than that rock or slab of cells decided to say "you're not worth to continue life anymore". I'm not sure how you not see the connection. I mean, what if your parents told you "I wish we had aborted you?" How would that make you feel?

Belkira wrote:
I disagree. You're assuming an awful lot about the entire population of women in this country. If a man had gotten me pregnant and I didn't want a kid, I would still let him know what was going on. To me, it's his right (not in a legal way, of course) to know about this, and we can discuss what he wants and what I want.


I'm just going off what I see in real life and in court shows. I despise court shows, but sometimes I get placed in those situations, i.e. barber shops. I've heard many stories of men being shafted from a pregnancy. Of course I don't believe that all women do that, but to believe it isn't a noticeable percentage is denial.


Belkira wrote:
I can only assume, but am willing to hear you say otherwise, that you feel that women are all this way because you think getting an abortion is an easy decision. It's certainly not. There may be a few women for which it is, but they are in the vast minority. Every woman I know, and while I have no evidence to this I can only assume that the huge majority of women consider an abortion a HUGE deal. They know EXACTLY what they're doing. They know EXACTLY what will happen to that clump of cells if she doesn't take any action to the contrary. They know that they have to live with their decision forever.


I've actually already stated that I believe it is a hard decision as I've talked to women who had abortions. I also stated that the difficulty of the decision is completely irrelevant to the action. Once it's done it's done. It doesn't matter how hard the decision is. That's why I'm not arguing about that, because it doesn't matter if that were the hardest decision in your life, everything that we've been talking about will remain unchanged.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#579 May 05 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Gurue
*****
16,288 posts
Belkira wrote:


Almalieque wrote:
Abortion isn't fair to the child, so that is a common factor. So in scenario 1, the woman does whatever she wants and the man does whatever he wants. In scenario 2, neither can do whatever they want.


At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it.


You're right. It is a parasite. Feeding off you, making you sick, bloated, miserable for months...

Ugh.
#580 May 05 2011 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Nadenu wrote:
Belkira wrote:


Almalieque wrote:
Abortion isn't fair to the child, so that is a common factor. So in scenario 1, the woman does whatever she wants and the man does whatever he wants. In scenario 2, neither can do whatever they want.


At the time of the abortion, it is not a child yet. A child is something that has been birthed. You could just as well be saying that removing a tapeworm isn't fair to the tapeworm.

Yes, I just compared a fetus to a parasite. No, I will not apologize for it.


You're right. It is a parasite. Feeding off you, making you sick, bloated, miserable for months...

Ugh.
I think to make them understand, you have to call the fetus a "welfare recipient" and the mother the "nanny state."
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#581 May 05 2011 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
******
43,650 posts
Almalieque wrote:
You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't.
That tapeworm is a life. How can you be pro-LIFE if you make such distinctions between one life and another? I thought "all life is sacred."
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#582 May 05 2011 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
11,946 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't.
That tapeworm is a life. How can you be pro-LIFE if you make such distinctions between one life and another? I thought "all life is sacred."
And toasters. Very sacred.

Edited, May 5th 2011 4:19pm by LockeColeMA
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#583 May 05 2011 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,642 posts
Almalieque wrote:
The fact is, that is a stage of everyone's life. Just as I said above to Nilatai in this post. All you have done is picked an arbitrary time in a person's life and said "it's ok to prevent further life development in this stage". It doesn't matter if we developed from rocks. If it is known that our first stages of life are rocks and you have a rock that you know will turn into a person, by destroying that rock, you have made a conscious decision to end that life development.


You know what else is "just a stage in everyone's life?" Sperm. And eggs. Should we outlaw menstruation and ****

Almalieque wrote:
So, it indeed becomes unfair when someone other than that rock or slab of cells decided to say "you're not worth to continue life anymore". I'm not sure how you not see the connection. I mean, what if your parents told you "I wish we had aborted you?" How would that make you feel?


That's what a guy does whenever he **** into a gym sock. And yeah, sometimes, those slab of cells aren't worth continuing life or development anymore. Circle of life and all that ****

Almalieque wrote:
I'm just going off what I see in real life and in court shows. I despise court shows, but sometimes I get placed in those situations, i.e. barber shops. I've heard many stories of men being shafted from a pregnancy. Of course I don't believe that all women do that, but to believe it isn't a noticeable percentage is denial.


/facepalm

Almalieque wrote:
I've actually already stated that I believe it is a hard decision as I've talked to women who had abortions. I also stated that the difficulty of the decision is completely irrelevant to the action. Once it's done it's done. It doesn't matter how hard the decision is. That's why I'm not arguing about that, because it doesn't matter if that were the hardest decision in your life, everything that we've been talking about will remain unchanged.


First of all, when it's done, it's not just "done." It affects a woman for the rest of her life in a lot of cases. Second of all, the point was that I'm speculating how you get your opinion of women and that you really just don't understand what's going on when you're talking about deciding to abort.

Looks like I was right.
#584 May 05 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't.
That tapeworm is a life. How can you be pro-LIFE if you make such distinctions between one life and another? I thought "all life is sacred."


Who said I was "pro-life"? My problem isn't with the act of abortion, but the rules and regulations surrounding the act.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#585 May 05 2011 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You do realize that those cells will turn into a child right? That tapeworm isn't.
That tapeworm is a life. How can you be pro-LIFE if you make such distinctions between one life and another? I thought "all life is sacred."


Who said I was "pro-life"? My problem isn't with the act of abortion, but the rules and regulations surrounding the act.
If by that you mean, "if I want her to keep the baby, then she has to listen to me, but if I don't want her to keep the baby, then I don't have to listen to her."
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#586 May 05 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Belkira wrote:

You know what else is "just a stage in everyone's life?" Sperm. And eggs. Should we outlaw menstruation and ****


That's not a stage of our lives, because the sperm doesn't turn into a person nor do a woman's eggs. When sperm is able to turn into people, then you would have a point. Nice try though.

Belkira wrote:

That's what a guy does whenever he **** into a gym sock. And yeah, sometimes, those slab of cells aren't worth continuing life or development anymore. Circle of life and all that sh*t.


Read above. So answer the question. How would you feel if your parents told you that they wish they had aborted you?

Belkira wrote:
First of all, when it's done, it's not just "done." It affects a woman for the rest of her life in a lot of cases. Second of all, the point was that I'm speculating how you get your opinion of women and that you really just don't understand what's going on when you're talking about deciding to abort.

Looks like I was right.


First of all, when it is done, it is done. The action is over. I didn't say that there weren't any feelings and emotions attached. I actually said the opposite in my example to you with my friend who considered her second pregnancy a blessing. The actual action is done, there is no reversing it.

Second of all, the point I was making to you is that I do understand that it is a difficult decision, but that level of difficulty doesn't change the topics that we are talking about, i.e. the rules and regulations of abortion. You're just fighting back with pure emotion now, "oh, it's so tough". WTF cares? That has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of abortion.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#587 May 05 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
****
6,470 posts
Belkira wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'm just going off what I see in real life and in court shows. I despise court shows, but sometimes I get placed in those situations, i.e. barber shops. I've heard many stories of men being shafted from a pregnancy. Of course I don't believe that all women do that, but to believe it isn't a noticeable percentage is denial.


/facepalm


Heh. Sounds just like gbaji!
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#588 May 05 2011 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalady wrote:
I'm just going off what I see in real life and in court shows. I despise court shows, but sometimes I get placed in those situations, i.e. beauty shops. I've heard many stories of women being shafted from a pregnancy. Of course I don't believe that all men do that, but to believe it isn't a noticeable percentage is denial.


____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#589 May 05 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Eske Esquire wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
I'm just going off what I see in real life and in court shows. I despise court shows, but sometimes I get placed in those situations, i.e. barber shops. I've heard many stories of men being shafted from a pregnancy. Of course I don't believe that all women do that, but to believe it isn't a noticeable percentage is denial.


/facepalm


Heh. Sounds just like gbaji!


I mean what is more evident than testimonies of people? I'm not making an overall judgment, but to pretend that it doesn't happen a lot is also silly.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#590 May 05 2011 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Gurue
*****
16,288 posts
Quote:
How would you feel if your parents told you that they wish they had aborted you?


What has this got to do with anything?

If parents are telling their kids they wish they had aborted them, I think we've got bigger problems than abortion rates. I think someone needs to be calling child services.
#591 May 05 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque wrote:


Read above. So answer the question. How would you feel if your parents told you that they wish they had aborted you?
Well, how would you feel if your hypothetical girlfriend said "I'm not ready to marry you?" It would probably sting a little bit, but you'd probably get over it. Of course, fetuses don't really feel anything.

Now, how would you feel if your hypothetical wife, after a few years of marriage, said, "I regret marrying you?"

Timing: socially aware people know that it's important!


Edited, May 5th 2011 4:17pm by Sweetums
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#592 May 05 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,642 posts
Almalieque wrote:
That's not a stage of our lives, because the sperm doesn't turn into a person nor do a woman's eggs. When sperm is able to turn into people, then you would have a point. Nice try though.


Of course they do, given the right conditions. Just like a fetus turns into a child, given the right conditions.

Almalieque wrote:
Read above. So answer the question. How would you feel if your parents told you that they wish they had aborted you?


You read above.

And if my parents would be telling me that, then they're probably pretty **** parents and my life would probably suck, so I'd probably wish they had done so, as well.

Almalieque wrote:
First of all, when it is done, it is done. The action is over. I didn't say that there weren't any feelings and emotions attached. I actually said the opposite in my example to you with my friend who considered her second pregnancy a blessing. The actual action is done, there is no reversing it.


Of course not... Who said it could be reversed??

Almalieque wrote:
Second of all, the point I was making to you is that I do understand that it is a difficult decision, but that level of difficulty doesn't change the topics that we are talking about, i.e. the rules and regulations of abortion. You're just fighting back with pure emotion now, "oh, it's so tough". WTF cares? That has nothing to do with the rules and regulations of abortion.


I'm not arguing anything, just explaining my thought on why you are as fucked up as you are when it comes to women.
#593 May 05 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Belkira wrote:


Of course they do, given the right conditions. Just like a fetus turns into a child, given the right conditions.


Uhhh.. no. A sperm by itself will not turn into a person, so until that is able to happen, you have no argument. Those conditions of a fetus are natural without any need of assistance from you or anyone. If you leave it alone, it will grow. It may die, but it still is growing towards a human. A sperm will never do that. Give it up.

Belkira wrote:

And if my parents would be telling me that, then they're probably pretty sh*tty parents and my life would probably suck, so I'd probably wish they had done so, as well.


First of all, I feel bad for you to think that you would wish that you were dead just because your parents would say that. Anyway, my point is that you made an emotional attachment to that clunk of cells and thought about you. Your argument differentiates the first forms of life with human life, saying it's ok to have abortions because it isn't a person. Under your logic, you shouldn't be hurt because they weren't talking about YOU, but the parasite that turned into you.

Of course that's stupid, because you know that clunk of cells WAS you and by removing it, it's removing your existence. We don't make that separation in everyday life, only when someone is arguing for abortion.

Belkira wrote:

Of course not... Who said it could be reversed??


You said that isn't just done when it's done, but it is. I was referencing to the action, not any emotions.

Belkira wrote:
I'm not arguing anything, just explaining my thought on why you are as **** up as you are when it comes to women.


And that's not based on anything but your emotional attachment to the right to have an abortion.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#594 May 05 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,681 posts
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:
I'm not arguing anything, just explaining my thought on why you are as @#%^ed up as you are when it comes to women.


And that's not based on anything but your emotional attachment to the right to have an abortion.
And your attitude towards marriage, love, social skills, I mean, this list goes on and on.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#595 May 05 2011 at 4:01 PM Rating: Excellent
****
6,470 posts
I have the potential to play in the NBA. Ergo, I am an NBA player, and am entitled to all of the compensation typically provided to an NBA player.


Someone pay me 7 million dollars.

Edited, May 5th 2011 6:01pm by Eske
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#596 May 05 2011 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque wrote:
[

Belkira wrote:
I'm not arguing anything, just explaining my thought on why you are as @#%^ed up as you are when it comes to women.


And that's not based on anything but your emotional attachment to the right to have an abortion.


alma wrote:
That all changed when I found out how trifling some women were, using babies as a way to make money.


You say that women use pregnancy as a "weapon." You weasel your way out of it by saying, "well, not all women do it!" but it's your focus. The entirety of your philosophy with regards to abortion is couched in terms of conflict against women. The cornerstone of your philosophy is this: women are vituperative shrews. You don't even provide any statistics--you take it as self-evident that a sizable population women are conniving to ruin a man's life vis a vis the lucrative investment of childbirth. If it were not, you would not be using it as the default scenario.


Strangely enough, none of your ire (save maybe a token amount) is directed towards men.


____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#597 May 05 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Almalieque wrote:
It is absolutely arbitrary as it's part of every person's development and life. All society has done was to pick a time in that life development to say it's ok to stop life. Everyone started from the same place, so it's completely arbitrary.
Did I not explain how the 24 week mark isn't arbitrary?



Almalieque wrote:
I wasn't, as for any real friends, none that I know of. I hear people complaining about child support all of the time, but none said that they didn't want the child.
Okay, just curious.


Almalieque wrote:
Slow down, don't jump ahead, that's how you always end up debating something that I never said.
M'kay.

Almalieque wrote:
Let's take the fact of "Evolution taking place" for example. Can there be any new information that doesn't align with the fact "Evolution took place",i.e. Evolution didn't take place, and still have the statement "Evolution took place" be considered a fact?

It's a little wordy, so let me know if it's written in a way hard to understand.

You mean like, if we found fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian? Well no, that would completely debunk the whole thing. The fact would cease to be fact and the theory would break down.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
#598 May 05 2011 at 4:51 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,949 posts
Ugly wrote:
And your attitude towards marriage, love, social skills, I mean, this list goes on and on.


Oooh, I am dying to hear your explanations, especially "social skills". go...


Sweetums wrote:
Almalieque wrote:


Belkira wrote:
I'm not arguing anything, just explaining my thought on why you are as @#%^ed up as you are when it comes to women.


And that's not based on anything but your emotional attachment to the right to have an abortion.


alma wrote:
That all changed when I found out how trifling some women were, using babies as a way to make money.


You say that women use pregnancy as a "weapon." You weasel your way out of it by saying, "well, not all women do it!" but it's your focus. The entirety of your philosophy with regards to abortion is couched in terms of conflict against women. The cornerstone of your philosophy is this: women are vituperative shrews. You don't even provide any statistics--you take it as self-evident that a sizable population women are conniving to ruin a man's life vis a vis the lucrative investment of childbirth. If it were not, you would not be using it as the default scenario.




Beside me initially saying "some", that was what caught my eye of the unequal responsibility, which is what my entire argument is based on. If I truly felt that way about women, I would have always expressed the feelings that you misconstruing.

Sweetums wrote:

Strangely enough, none of your ire (save maybe a token amount) is directed towards men.


So I guess you missed the ENTIRE conversation on deadbeat dads huh?

____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#599 May 05 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
******
43,650 posts
The funniest thing my dad ever said was "You were one beer away from impregnating a sock." I turned out pretty well.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#600 May 05 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Good
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
Almalieque wrote:

Sweetums wrote:

Strangely enough, none of your ire (save maybe a token amount) is directed towards men.


So I guess you missed the ENTIRE conversation on deadbeat dads huh?


Tell me where your view of deadbeat dads factors into your stance on abortion.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#601 May 05 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
Drunken English Bastard
*****
15,263 posts
Sweetums wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

Sweetums wrote:

Strangely enough, none of your ire (save maybe a token amount) is directed towards men.


So I guess you missed the ENTIRE conversation on deadbeat dads huh?


Tell me where your view of deadbeat dads factors into your stance on abortion.
It was something about how deadbeat dads are in favour of abortion so abortion is bad.
____________________________
My Movember page
Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 34 All times are in CDT
Aethien, Anonymous Guests (33)