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Arizona birther bill passedFollow

#52 Apr 15 2011 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I don't get it. Arizona has no jurisdiction over non-Arizonians.


Before reading further, you don't vote in a national election. The only actual national election is the vote cast by the Electoral College. When you vote for Senator or Representative, you are voting within your district or state to send a representative of your district or state to Congress. When you vote for president, you're voting within your state to elect Electoral College representative from your state who will then vote for President.

The states decide the rules for their elections (within certain restrictions of course). They absolutely can set eligibility requirements for a name to appear on the ballot. And given that what they're asking is pretty easily within the bounds of the requirement for the office itself, it's unlikely that this requirement can be successfully challenged (but I'm sure that wont stop some from trying).

Personally, I think it's a great idea. More states should follow suite. Since the federal government has shown no interest in closing this potential loophole, the states absolutely can and should step up to the plate and do it themselves.


But to respond more directly to your post. This doesn't affect voters outside of Arizona. What it means is that any candidate for president who hasn't provided those credentials cannot appear on the Arizona ballot (and presumably would also be barred from write-in as well). Meaning that if (for example) Obama doesn't provide this information to Arizona he automatically can't get any EC votes from that state. The sticky point is that as I pointed out earlier, you don't vote for the candidate. You vote for an EC member from that candidates party. All the Dems would have to do to circumvent this would be to put "Democratic Party Candidate" on their application and tell people to vote for the Democratic party candidate. The Arizona law presumably can't bar the Electoral College from voting for whomever they wish, so there is a loophole there I believe.


EDIT: Having thought about it a bit more (and read through the rest of the posts), they'd have to come up with an actual person to put on the ballot (since that person would have to present a birth certificate as well). As someone pointed out earlier, they could just put a proxy in place and have people vote for that person. The question is how much this would be seen as just more ridiculous twisting of the rules to avoid presenting a full legal document which most people would assume should be required as proof anyway.

It's a good approach because it doesn't specifically say "We're looking at you Obama!", but if every other candidate on the ballot in AZ (hah! Except maybe one other IIRC) files a full complete form birth certificate and appears by name there, and Obama doesn't, but he instead has some other person stand in for him, a whole lot of people will start to wonder wtf is up with that.

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 2:33pm by gbaji
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#53 Apr 15 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Elinda wrote:
I don't get it. Arizona has no jurisdiction over non-Arizonians.


Before reading further, you don't vote in a national election. The only actual national election is the vote cast by the Electoral College. When you vote for Senator or Representative, you are voting within your district or state to send a representative of your district or state to Congress. When you vote for president, you're voting within your state to elect Electoral College representative from your state who will then vote for President.

The states decide the rules for their elections (within certain restrictions of course). They absolutely can set eligibility requirements for a name to appear on the ballot. And given that what they're asking is pretty easily within the bounds of the requirement for the office itself, it's unlikely that this requirement can be successfully challenged (but I'm sure that wont stop some from trying).

Personally, I think it's a great idea. More states should follow suite. Since the federal government has shown no interest in closing this potential loophole, the states absolutely can and should step up to the plate and do it themselves.


But to respond more directly to your post. This doesn't affect voters outside of Arizona. What it means is that any candidate for president who hasn't provided those credentials cannot appear on the Arizona ballot (and presumably would also be barred from write-in as well). Meaning that if (for example) Obama doesn't provide this information to Arizona he automatically can't get any EC votes from that state. The sticky point is that as I pointed out earlier, you don't vote for the candidate. You vote for an EC member from that candidates party. All the Dems would have to do to circumvent this would be to put "Democratic Party Candidate" on their application and tell people to vote for the Democratic party candidate. The Arizona law presumably can't bar the Electoral College from voting for whomever they wish, so there is a loophole there I believe.


EDIT: Having thought about it a bit more (and read through the rest of the posts), they'd have to come up with an actual person to put on the ballot (since that person would have to present a birth certificate as well). As someone pointed out earlier, they could just put a proxy in place and have people vote for that person. The question is how much this would be seen as just more ridiculous twisting of the rules to avoid presenting a full legal document which most people would assume should be required as proof anyway.

It's a good approach because it doesn't specifically say "We're looking at you Obama!", but if every other candidate on the ballot in AZ (hah! Except maybe one other IIRC) files a full complete form birth certificate and appears by name there, and Obama doesn't, but he instead has some other person stand in for him, a whole lot of people will start to wonder wtf is up with that.

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 2:33pm by gbaji


Are you trying to derail the thread into a debate on how stupid the EC is in the first place? You probably don't think it's stupid because it hooked W up with a cushy job for four years (i say four because W won the popular vote for his second term).

Edit: Oh crap! It worked!

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 5:51pm by Ailitardif
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#54 Apr 15 2011 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Are you trying to derail the thread into a debate on how stupid the EC is in the first place? You probably don't think it's stupid because it hooked W up with a cushy job for four years (i say four because W won the popular vote for his second term).


Is that honestly what you got out of that? Because that's a bit insane. I'm not making any judgment about the process at all. I'm just clarifying how the process works in the context of the topic of this thread.
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#55 Apr 15 2011 at 4:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
EDIT: Having thought about it a bit more (and read through the rest of the posts), they'd have to come up with an actual person to put on the ballot (since that person would have to present a birth certificate as well). As someone pointed out earlier, they could just put a proxy in place and have people vote for that person. The question is how much this would be seen as just more ridiculous twisting of the rules to avoid presenting a full legal document which most people would assume should be required as proof anyway.

Yeah, it was a joke. I mean, they could technically do it (and note the italics there), but no one was seriously suggesting that they would.

I assume they'll run out the clock to the last minute, letting you and the rest of the Birthers work yourselves into a lather and then hand over whatever they need and leave you guys looking stupid. I assume the whole reason they haven't bothered yet is because it's more beneficial for them to watch a select group of wingnuts embarrass the party and turn on their own more rationally minded fellows at the moment. For all the "But why hasn't he??" wailing, the real question is: Why WOULD you when you don't have to and can instead watch Republicans spend time and money on this rather than anything fruitful? When the time comes, you say "Oh, yeah. There ya go" and leave them sputtering and saying "But... but... but...!!"

A select group of Republicans have caught on to this and tried to warn the rest but, happily, most of you are still barking at the shadows and chasing your tails :)
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#56 Apr 15 2011 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Are you trying to derail the thread into a debate on how stupid the EC is in the first place? You probably don't think it's stupid because it hooked W up with a cushy job for four years (i say four because W won the popular vote for his second term).


Is that honestly what you got out of that? Because that's a bit insane. I'm not making any judgment about the process at all. I'm just clarifying how the process works in the context of the topic of this thread.


Eh, can't win them all.
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#57 Apr 15 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Really, you don't even have to put "Democratic Party Candidate". You could slap any eligible name on there in the Democratic Party slot (provided owner of said name met the qualifications) and just have the College delegates cast their votes for Obama. The Electoral college is a federal procedure and the AZ rules don't apply once the Democratic or Republican electors have been chosen.

Again, purely in the theoretical. No one is actually going to do this.

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 5:13pm by Jophiel
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#58 Apr 15 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I use the EQ Classic stylesheet and have no idea what you people are talking about.
Ditto.

This is a true instance of blissful ignorance.
#59 Apr 15 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I've been thinking about birtherism recently and part of me wonders: what if Obama himself (or someone on his side) that started it as a distraction, or seeing how it was a distraction, they decided to run with it?

Think about it. If this was really bad for Obama/the left I think the media would probably try to keep hush hush about it. Instead they have no problems with it and are using it to make fun of people.
#60 Apr 15 2011 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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KingWinterclaw wrote:
Think about it. If this was really bad for Obama/the left I think the media would probably try to keep hush hush about it. Instead they have no problems with it and are using it to make fun of people.

The crazier the conspiracy, the more genius Obama appears.
#61 Apr 15 2011 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I bet Biden thought of it. He's not really sleeping all the time, he's thinking up genius new ways to troll.
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#62 Apr 15 2011 at 5:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kaelesh wrote:
That should pass the mustard right?


Pass muster, you yutz.

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Edited, Apr 15th 2011 4:37pm by Samira
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#63 Apr 15 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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At this point isn't it a little pedantic to even care if he was born on US soil? He was raised as a US citizen and spent most of his life here. Most of us don't know for sure where we were born. We don't remember-- could all be a conspiracy cooked up by our parents! If your parents revealed to you tomorrow that you weren't actually born on US soil, would you consider yourself any less a US citizen? And if so, aren't you retarded?
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#64 Apr 15 2011 at 5:53 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Most of us don't know for sure where we were born.
I find that a little hard to believe.
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#65 Apr 15 2011 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Most of us don't know for sure where we were born.
I find that a little hard to believe.


You don't remember it do you? Don't you think that's awfully strange for you to not remember your own birth? The most important day of your life!? It's all a hoax, perpetrated by your parents to ensure your U.S. citizenship! Where's my tinfoil hat?!
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Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

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Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#66 Apr 15 2011 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Most of us don't know for sure where we were born.
I find that a little hard to believe.


You don't remember it do you? Don't you think that's awfully strange for you to not remember your own birth? The most important day of your life!? It's all a hoax, perpetrated by your parents to ensure your U.S. citizenship! Where's my tinfoil hat?!


This is exactly why we need time travel...
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#67 Apr 15 2011 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
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Not so much remember, but I know I was born at Mount Sinai Hospital in Manhatten. Of course, I am one of those egotistical highly proud Eyetalian New Yorkers. So might be an exception to the rule. I just find it hard to believe people wouldn't know where they were born.
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#68 Apr 15 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Not so much remember, but I know I was born at Mount Sinai Hospital in Manhatten. Of course, I am one of those egotistical highly proud Eyetalian New Yorkers. So might be an exception to the rule. I just find it hard to believe people wouldn't know where they were born.


We only know where we are told we were born...my parents are liberal (ie. liars) and documents can be forged.
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#69 Apr 15 2011 at 6:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm just going on record and mentioning I realize I've gotten myself wooshed, and my defense is the second Indiana Jones movie just came on.
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#70 Apr 15 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'm just going on record and mentioning I realize I've gotten myself wooshed, and my defense is the second Indiana Jones movie just came on.


That's one of my top four favorite Indiana Jones movies!
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#71 Apr 15 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Just when I thought that my state couldn't pander to idiots more I click this thread.

I think I'm gonna go down a pint of ice cream...
#72 Apr 15 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira wrote:
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Come on, you don't actually need to prove your side of an argument. Just prevent the opposite side from disproving it. how do you think religions have survived this long


Are you some **** child of Alma's, or did you just discover that you can change the colors of the words in your post?

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 9:45am by Belkira


I already received my taxes..... I have no children.
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#73 Apr 15 2011 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, it was a joke. I mean, they could technically do it (and note the italics there), but no one was seriously suggesting that they would.


I got that. I was just examining all the possibilities there as well.

Quote:
I assume they'll run out the clock to the last minute, letting you and the rest of the Birthers work yourselves into a lather and then hand over whatever they need and leave you guys looking stupid.


Sure. But it's a win-win for the right though. As someone pointed out (and I think you and I have both discussed this aspect in the past), the whole "birther" thing is a great gimmick for the left and it's certainly possible that the whole reason for the legal actions is specifically so they can stretch this thing out and allow their surrogates in the media to make fun of conservatives over it.

This puts a hard clock on that though, doesn't it? Either he has to do something absurd (like use a proxy), or he has to provide the documents. The birthers get what they want and the GOP gets the issue put behind them and the Dems lose the free jokes on cable TV.

And if along the way, this creates a process which strengthens the constitutional requirements for holding the office of President going forward (which has been my reason for caring about this issue), then the American people all win as well! It's a good thing IMO.

Quote:
A select group of Republicans have caught on to this and tried to warn the rest but, happily, most of you are still barking at the shadows and chasing your tails :)


I don't think anyone is really unaware of that aspect of the issue Joph. This resolves the issue.
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#74 Apr 15 2011 at 7:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Kachi wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Most of us don't know for sure where we were born.
I find that a little hard to believe.


You don't remember it do you? Don't you think that's awfully strange for you to not remember your own birth? The most important day of your life!? It's all a hoax, perpetrated by your parents to ensure your U.S. citizenship! Where's my tinfoil hat?!


This is exactly why we need time travel...


China just banned time travel, and if they control the entire world in the future, then no time travel would exist. Therefore there would be no way to come back from the future to change the banning of time travel by china, or preventing them from taking over the world, and preventing time travel.
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#75 Apr 15 2011 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'm just going on record and mentioning I realize I've gotten myself wooshed, and my defense is the second Indiana Jones movie just came on.
That's one of my top four favorite Indiana Jones movies!
Note that I don't even consider the fourth movie in the top four.
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#76 Apr 15 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
At this point isn't it a little pedantic to even care if he was born on US soil?


There is that pesky Constitution though.

Quote:
He was raised as a US citizen and spent most of his life here.


Except for that time where he lived until the age of 10 in Indonesia of course. But other than that, he was raised as a US citizen and spent most of his life here. How much of your cultural and social identity had you formed by age 10? A good amount, right? Obviously, this doesn't disqualify him legally, but your statement isn't really accurate.


Quote:
Most of us don't know for sure where we were born. We don't remember-- could all be a conspiracy cooked up by our parents! If your parents revealed to you tomorrow that you weren't actually born on US soil, would you consider yourself any less a US citizen? And if so, aren't you retarded?


But it's not how you consider yourself. If that turned out to be true, you would legally not be a US citizen. And that *does* kinda matter.


And at the risk of spinning this off on another tangent, the purpose of that restriction really is to ensure that the person holding the office of President does not have conflicted loyalties. The assumption being that someone born in the US and raised by US parents would be most likely to hold strictly US loyalties. I would assume that had Obama been raised in Hawaii his entire life and not lived for more than half of his first 10 years on foreign soil being raised by a foreign stepfather, nobody would care that much about the actual birth documentation. But the combination of someone who lived a large portion of his formative years on foreign soil and any question at all about his birth certificate lends more people to want to take a closer look. He clearly doesn't match the spirit of the law as written, but it's not that spirit we apply. So any possibility that he also doesn't meet the letter of the law is going to be examined and explored.


And despite some craziness over this issue (on both sides), the request for examination of the full documents is not really unreasonable. Not for such an important position in our government. And kudos to Az for finally doing the right thing. I mean, it would have been nice for Obama to do the right thing three years ago, but he chose to make political hay out of it instead, so it falls to someone else to take action. And this action by Az is exactly the right thing to do. The courts have failed us on this, so it's time for someone to pass a law.

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 6:19pm by gbaji
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#77 Apr 15 2011 at 7:20 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Kaelesh wrote:
That should pass the mustard right?


Pass muster, you yutz.

<3


I live in America. It's mustard you commie whore.

I just want a Chicago Dog.
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#78 Apr 15 2011 at 7:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'm just going on record and mentioning I realize I've gotten myself wooshed, and my defense is the second Indiana Jones movie just came on.
That's one of my top four favorite Indiana Jones movies!
Note that I don't even consider the fourth movie in the top four.


If you take away most of the plot points, actors, and green screens it was actually pretty good (I'm referring to Harrison Ford wearing the hat)
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#79 Apr 15 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
I'm just going on record and mentioning I realize I've gotten myself wooshed, and my defense is the second Indiana Jones movie just came on.
That's one of my top four favorite Indiana Jones movies!
Note that I don't even consider the fourth movie in the top four.


That really was a bad movie.
#80 Apr 15 2011 at 9:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
But it's a win-win for the right though.

lulz
Quote:
This puts a hard clock on that though, doesn't it? Either he has to do something absurd (like use a proxy), or he has to provide the documents. The birthers get what they want and the GOP gets the issue put behind them and the Dems lose the free jokes on cable TV.

It's adorable that you think these people will just say "Oh! So I was wrong then! Hahahaha... boy, was I silly!"

The idea that there's some singular silver bullet that will make the scary Obama-monster go away is what these people live and breathe for. The birthers will never get "what they want" because what they actually want is an easy solution to the pathological fear they've been taught by the crazed Right.
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#81 Apr 16 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
I mean, it would have been nice for Obama to do the right thing three years ago
That's the point you've missed for 3 years: he did do the right thing three years ago. But that doesn't really stop a conspiracy theory in the same way that people still believe 9/11 was an inside job and that people still believe the Earth is flat. Conspiracy theories thrive on confirmation bias, only growing stronger in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
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#82 Apr 17 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Except for that time where he lived until the age of 10 in Indonesia of course. But other than that, he was raised as a US citizen and spent most of his life here. How much of your cultural and social identity had you formed by age 10? A good amount, right? Obviously, this doesn't disqualify him legally, but your statement isn't really accurate.


Right, if you ignore that everything about my statement was accurate, then it wasn't really accurate.

It must be exhausting being this willfully, defiantly ignorant. Imagine what you could do with all that energy if you weren't constantly fighting against the tide of reality.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#83 Apr 17 2011 at 12:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I love that Gbaji takes three years abroad (Oct 1967 (age 5)-June 1970 when he spent the summer with his grandparents in Hawaii and then went to live permanently in 1971), ignores the presence of his Kansas-born mother, and tries to weave little scare stories from it. Oh noes! He lived there until he was 10!! Now he doesn't have the right social identity and national loyalties!!

Oh, yeah... once that birth certificate is on file, ALLLLLLL those crazy Birther conspiracy theories will just stop right then and there! There's no pathological fear here at all :D

Edited, Apr 17th 2011 1:56am by Jophiel
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#84 Apr 17 2011 at 1:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I think that Obama is just going to hold out until the GOP does something silly like choose Trump as their candidate, then he will drop the bombshell and completely destroy Trumps current running platform.
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#85 Apr 17 2011 at 1:03 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
I think that Obama is just going to hold out until the GOP does something silly like choose Trump as their candidate, then he will drop the bombshell and completely destroy Trumps current running platform.


That would be so awesome that I would probably **** myself.
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#86 Apr 17 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I have nothing of any importance whatsoever to add to this thread.

"Follow Suit", as in one of the four suits in a deck of cards.

ETA: For clarification:
Gbaji wrote:
More states should follow suite


Edited, Apr 17th 2011 6:50pm by stupidmonkey
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#87 Apr 17 2011 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
The text is a pretty neat read: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/hb2177s.pdf

Starts on page 3 and goes to page 4. Basically says "You need a long-form birth certificate or GTFO."

I don't have a long form and I was born in Jersey =/ (that might be why =/) My children and my husband have long forms though.

DO certain states just not issue long forms?
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#88 Apr 17 2011 at 10:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, it's up to the state.

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#89 Apr 17 2011 at 11:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, it's up to the state.



I'm slow..I apologize. So, since my state didn't issue a long form, I'm essentially screwed if I were to want to run for political office in Arizona? (not sure why I would want to run for office..)
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#90 Apr 17 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I assume so, although I confess I haven't been paying close attention.

My take on this is that it won't take four years for this to filter through the court system and be dismissed as unconstitutional. But we'll see; maybe it's written better than most reactive laws tend to be.

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#91 Apr 18 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
I assume so, although I confess I haven't been paying close attention.

My take on this is that it won't take four years for this to filter through the court system and be dismissed as unconstitutional. But we'll see; maybe it's written better than most reactive laws tend to be.


Not sure if it's unconstitutional or not (maybe it is), but I would definitely think it violates the Privacy Act (again, maybe not?). Of course, making laws that violate other laws happens a lot.
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#92 Apr 18 2011 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it would seem to violate the "full faith and credit" clause. Some political analysts have weighed in on this already; here's a fairly accessible write-up that also mentions a bill in Arkansas that tried to impose term limits by leaving people off the state ballot if they'd already served two terms.

Here's the full faith and credit discussion specifically:

Quote:
Arizona’s bill, if it becomes law, would also seem to be vulnerable to a challenge under the Full Faith And Credit Clause. Section 1 of Article IV of the Constitution requires states to give full faith and credit to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. This includes accepting as genuine records from a sister state that have been officially certified under seal from the appropriate record keeper. Under Arizona’s law, the Hawaii Certification Of Live Birth, which is an official document from the State of Hawaii, and the only birth record that the state releases. By failing to accept this document, even for the limited purpose that this law is written for, Arizona would be failing to give full faith and credit to the records of not just Hawaii, but every other state that only issues COLB’s as birth records.


Bolding mine.

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#93 Apr 18 2011 at 6:43 AM Rating: Good
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But see, faith is a religious concept, and they're not about to mix church and state.
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#94varusword75, Posted: Apr 18 2011 at 8:18 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#95 Apr 18 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Fact is Obama will never lose the support of democrats regardless of what he does or who he is.
And Republicans will never lose the support of republicans, no matter what. Kind of funny how bias works.
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#96 Apr 18 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Quote:
I assume they'll run out the clock to the last minute, letting you and the rest of the Birthers work yourselves into a lather and then hand over whatever they need and leave you guys looking stupid.
If that were the case it would have served him better to have released them the first time around.

Why? Again, he's better served by having the Birthers of the fringe Right wing embarrassing the party. There was no need to release them the first time around because it was never hurting his campaign. Instead the nutbags on the Right spent their time and money pursuing this rather than anything actually productive.
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#97varusword75, Posted: Apr 18 2011 at 10:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#98 Apr 18 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:

Well except they aren't the fringe. Republicans are seeing Obama as either intentionally divisive or a someone who's got something to hide.


Right, so, business as usual then?
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#99 Apr 18 2011 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:
Again, he's better served by having the Birthers of the fringe Right wing embarrassing the party.


Well except they aren't the fringe. The people are seeing Obama as either intentionally divisive or a someone who's got something to hide.


Don't pretend that the majority of the people believe this garbage.
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#100 Apr 18 2011 at 10:36 AM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
I think that Obama is just going to hold out until the GOP does something silly like choose Trump as their candidate, then he will drop the bombshell and completely destroy Trumps current running platform.


Well if Trump is dumb enough to base his entire campaign on that particular topic, then yes. Else, it's no different than any other lies said and done during politics.

It's actually kind of ironic, all of this work is probably hurting The Governator from ever becoming president. I'm sure he would give President Obama a "run for his money" without actually having to provide anything.
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Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#101Almalieque, Posted: Apr 18 2011 at 10:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nope, I just polled 10 people, apparently majority of the United States believes so.
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