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Arizona birther bill passedFollow

#1 Apr 15 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Arizona Legislature approved a bill Thursday night that would require presidential candidates to prove they are U.S. citizens before their names could be placed on a state ballot.

The so-called "birther bill" got final approval by a vote of 40 to 16 in the state House, according to the website for the Arizona State Legislature.

The bill's author, Arizona State Rep. Carl Seel, a Republican, has repeatedly said the bill is not targeted at President Barack Obama.

"It's not about that," Seel said. "It's about future elections and maintaining the integrity of the Constitution."


I thought the Constitution gave Congress the ability to investigate this? Oh well, birtherism is back in the headlines, and Varus should be happy!
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#2 Apr 15 2011 at 7:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It technically does target Obama as he would likely run for reelection. Then we can all go on and on about useless topics on the news again instead of talking about actual issues facing us. like we do now! hawhaw.
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#3 Apr 15 2011 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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I don't get it. Arizona has no jurisdiction over non-Arizonians.
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#4 Apr 15 2011 at 7:56 AM Rating: Good
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And with that, Arizona takes a commanding lead over Texas as the dumbest state in the US.
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#5 Apr 15 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I don't get it. Arizona has no jurisdiction over non-Arizonians.


I'm not positive, but I assume they do have the final say over who they put on their ballot, correct? Like how Stephen Colbert ran in 2008, but only got on the ballot in S.C.

Of course, that's a little silly, as the certificate of live birth from Hawaii passes the government's requirements for proving citizenship.

And slight edit: it isn't passed until the governor signs it, technically. It passed their legislature 40-16.
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#6 Apr 15 2011 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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Seems a bit petty, but eh. They should extend it to any elected position so we're not stuck with true fiascos like Schwarzenegger again.
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#7 Apr 15 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Default
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You people really don't realize the extent of the gop landslides last fall do you? States have this right and they won't be the only. No matter how much Obama and the left want this issue to disappear, and marginalize anyone who discusses it, it's simply not going away.
#8 Apr 15 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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The text is a pretty neat read: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/50leg/1r/bills/hb2177s.pdf

Starts on page 3 and goes to page 4. Basically says "You need a long-form birth certificate or GTFO."
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#9 Apr 15 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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Locked,

Quote:
certificate of live birth from Hawaii


about that;

Quote:
His online Certification of Live Birth is a document that has been obtained for babies not born in Hawaii, because the state's loose laws required only a declaration by a family member or witness in the case of unattended births.


The newspaper notices of birth that she cited, several days after the birth, were generated automatically by the state health department and were given to the newspapers, which did not independently check them. The notice would have been generated by the system should someone have registered Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii, whether he was born there or not.


The president has declined – and has fought in court – efforts to obtain access to his college records, Punahou records, records as an Illinois state lawmaker, college application and financial aid information records, other college records, adoption records and others.

Little information has been revealed about his travels, including his time spent in Pakistan.


Even the marriage and divorce records for his mother have not been released.


Read more: Obama's half-sister joins eligibility talk-show tour http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=286353#ixzz1JbJBRU80



I'm sorry but you don't fight to have all your records sealed, and I mean all of them from birth to college to state lawmaker, unless you have something to hide.

#10 Apr 15 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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For what it's worth, I really don't care whether it passes or not. Its already too late for it to kick Obama out, and even if it prevents him from the next election ... well, that's the next election. The only next issue I have with the elections is Trump, so we'll see when that comes around. Like I said earlier, they should just make it all encompassing to prevent real fiascos, like Arnie.

Really a shame though. Here's my tax dollars paying for people to complain over two different birth certificates.
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#11 Apr 15 2011 at 8:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:

I'm sorry but you don't fight to have all your records sealed, and I mean all of them from birth to college to state lawmaker, unless you have something to hide.


Working in a University, I can tell you for a fact that all records on admissions, applications, and financial aid are naturally sealed - the only person able to access them is the actual person OR a legal guardian with signed permission. I'd say something like "You really can't be this dumb"... but you are.
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#12 Apr 15 2011 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
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The president has declined – and has fought in court – efforts to obtain access to his college records, Punahou records, records as an Illinois state lawmaker, college application and financial aid information records, other college records, adoption records and others.


None of which should be public knowledge anyway.
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#13 Apr 15 2011 at 8:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
For what it's worth, I really don't care whether it passes or not. Its already too late for it to kick Obama out, and even if it prevents him from the next election ... well, that's the next election.

If he chooses not to prove his citizenship in AZ to be on the ballot, it will call in to question his entire first term, potentially invalidating anything he signed during his time in office. There would surely be court challenges to everything passed that would have a good chance of succeeding if he didn't choose to provide the required documentation. If he provided the documentation after ignoring AZ and subjecting people to this garbage for all this time I'd look the other way while he got his *** kicked.
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#14 Apr 15 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Quote:

The president has declined – and has fought in court – efforts to obtain access to his college records, Punahou records, records as an Illinois state lawmaker, college application and financial aid information records, other college records, adoption records and others.


None of which should be public knowledge anyway.

Sorry, but anyone who wants to lead the country should have their whole life examined under a microscope.
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#15 Apr 15 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
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No doubt it would, and what a wonderful use of money that would be.
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#16 Apr 15 2011 at 8:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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States can make ballot rules such as number of signatures required, etc so it stands to reason that this doesn't violate the Constitution or anything. Not that I think Obama can't comply, but I would laugh my *** off if he just said "Pfftt... I'm not getting AZ's electoral votes anyway."

Speaking of, state presidential elections are really just decisions on electoral college participants. Technically, you could put anyone in the Democratic slot and, if he won, have the state's EC delegation cast their votes for Obama. That's be pretty funny as well.

Realistically, he'll provide some sort of qualifying information.
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#17 Apr 15 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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So basically your evidence that Obama was born in Africa consists of the fact that his aunt (grandmother) said he was born in Africa (Hawaii), and because he is a liar (black)?
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#18SwiftAusterity, Posted: Apr 15 2011 at 8:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Come on, you don't actually need to prove your side of an argument. Just prevent the opposite side from disproving it. how do you think religions have survived this long
#19 Apr 15 2011 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
Come on, you don't actually need to prove your side of an argument. Just prevent the opposite side from disproving it. how do you think religions have survived this long


Are you some ******* child of Alma's, or did you just discover that you can change the colors of the words in your post?

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 9:45am by Belkira
#20 Apr 15 2011 at 8:48 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Seems a bit petty, but eh. They should extend it to any elected position so we're not stuck with true fiascos like Schwarzenegger again.
Derr, the constitution only says the pres has to be born in the US. There have been a whole bevy of foreign born govs.

Or are you saying that foreigners aren't capable of running a government as well as someone born in the us? Simply making the statement proves it false....if you're a born and bred USA'er.
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#21 Apr 15 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
So basically your evidence that Obama was born in Africa consists of the fact that his aunt (grandmother) said he was born in Africa (Hawaii), and because he is a liar (black)?
..and he's a dirty liberal.
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#22 Apr 15 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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My signature has pretty much been the same on this board the entire time. (which admittedly has only been a month or so)

Additionally I've been using similar forum code for years that allowed font color changes.

You could, if you figured it out, use the "invisible" color ANSI code on my MUD as far back as 1998 to make "hidden" text which you had to have a similarly secret "see hidden text" option enabled to see on the other end.

So yeah, I've been using and enabling people to use "invisible" text online for over a decade.
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#23 Apr 15 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
So basically your evidence that Obama was born in Africa consists of the fact that his aunt (grandmother) said he was born in Africa (Hawaii), and because he is a liar (black)?
..and he's a dirty liberal.


I mentioned liar ;)
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#24 Apr 15 2011 at 8:53 AM Rating: Good
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Nah, just really saying if we're gonna get picky, let's get picky. The whole "Must be 100% US in every conceivable way to be President" never made much sense to me to begin with, as there really are no US people. We're a nation of mutts, you know. Just a fight both sides are butting heads over and wasting money that could be better used arguing over ... I don't know, sugar substitutes.

(Also: I never like Arnold Schwarzenegger.)

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 10:54am by lolgaxe
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#25 Apr 15 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Decent
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
My signature has pretty much been the same on this board the entire time. (which admittedly has only been a month or so)

Additionally I've been using similar forum code for years that allowed font color changes.

You could, if you figured it out, use the "invisible" color ANSI code on my MUD as far back as 1998 to make "hidden" text which you had to have a similarly secret "see hidden text" option enabled to see on the other end.

So yeah, I've been using and enabling people to use "invisible" text online for over a decade.


You do realize that there's not one forum skin that everyone uses. Really, it just looks stupid on the skin I'm using.
#26 Apr 15 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Default
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It's hidden to me, that's all I care about ;)

It has once again served it's purpose as well, which is described in my posting location text.
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#27 Apr 15 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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It seems odd that the law would allow an "early baptismal certificate" to serve as evidence of natural born citizenship given that babies aren't baptized immediately at birth (even among devout Catholics you have some lag time in there) and the church makes no attempt to authenticate the infant's birthplace or age. Or even records his birthplace on the certificate. I could have a baby born in Mongolia, bring him to the US two weeks later and have him baptized and I'd have a document that passes muster under the AZ state law.
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#28 Apr 15 2011 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
It seems odd that the law would allow an "early baptismal certificate" to serve as evidence of natural born citizenship given that babies aren't baptized immediately at birth (even among devout Catholics you have some lag time in there) and the church makes no attempt to authenticate the infant's birthplace or age. Or even records his birthplace on the certificate. I could have a baby born in Mongolia, bring him to the US two weeks later and have him baptized and I'd have a document that passes muster under the AZ state law.


If I had to guess it is because they "know" that Obama is an African (Hawaiian) Muslim (Christian).
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#29 Apr 15 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
It seems odd that the law would allow an "early baptismal certificate" to serve as evidence of natural born citizenship given that babies aren't baptized immediately at birth (even among devout Catholics you have some lag time in there) and the church makes no attempt to authenticate the infant's birthplace or age. Or even records his birthplace on the certificate. I could have a baby born in Mongolia, bring him to the US two weeks later and have him baptized and I'd have a document that passes muster under the AZ state law.


Seems like they just culled that part from the federal req's for Secondary Evidence of Citizenship:

Secondary Evidence of U.S. Citizenship

If you cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship, you must submit secondary evidence of U.S. citizenship. Determine what form of secondary evidence is most appropriate for your situation based on the descriptions below.

Early Public Records
If you were born in the United States and cannot present primary evidence of U.S. citizenship, submit a combination of early public records as evidence of your U.S. citizenship. Early public records must be submitted with a birth record or Letter of No Record. Early public records should show your name, date of birth, place of birth, and preferably be created within the first five years of your life. Examples of early public records are:

* Baptismal certificate
* Hospital birth certificate
* Census record
* Early school record
* Family bible record
* Doctor's record of post-natal care

Early Public Records are not acceptable when presented alone.


AZ requires two of them, and they're more strict about which ones.

Edited, Apr 15th 2011 11:18am by Eske
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#30 Apr 15 2011 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
It seems odd that the law would allow an "early baptismal certificate" to serve as evidence of natural born citizenship given that babies aren't baptized immediately at birth (even among devout Catholics you have some lag time in there) and the church makes no attempt to authenticate the infant's birthplace or age. Or even records his birthplace on the certificate. I could have a baby born in Mongolia, bring him to the US two weeks later and have him baptized and I'd have a document that passes muster under the AZ state law.
It seems odd that members of our secular government would even suggest paying heed to a religious certificate that is only issued to and by Christians.
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#31varusword75, Posted: Apr 15 2011 at 9:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
#32 Apr 15 2011 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Another hilarious thing is ********************************************************-birth-certificate-beck-delivers-message-to-birthers/]Beck (and O'Reilly) have both come out and said "His birth in America is legit, stop fighting such a dumb fight."[/link] The comments section of this article (from one of Beck's sites, TheBlaze) quickly turns on its own creator with comments like:
Quote:
Actually, I am beginning to think that Beck is washed up...
I think Beck has expended himself, and has nothing left
Last year I commented that Beck showed signs of backing down and it could be he’s sold out.
Beck is starting to sound like Alinsky in his ridicule of birthers. I am greatly disappointed by that development.
Sorry Glenn, but if the Communist and Chief refuses to do something simple like show the certificate, then obviously there is something wrong……I think Donald Trump is right on this one


Oh, delicious irony.

By the way, never read the comments at that site. It's like a Varus family reunion.
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#33 Apr 15 2011 at 9:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:

And people running for president should have the expectation that what they've done in college or as a lawmaker should be open to the public for scrutiny.


That is against the law Smiley: schooled
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#34 Apr 15 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
varusword75 wrote:

And people running for president should have the expectation that what they've done in college or as a lawmaker should be open to the public for scrutiny.


That is against the law Smiley: schooled


Since when do they care about the law?
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#35 Apr 15 2011 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
It's hidden to me, that's all I care about ;)

It has once again served it's purpose as well, which is described in my posting location text.


So you're posting to yourself...? Interesting.

Also, this thread isn't derailed. I wasn't participating in the actual topic beforehand, and no one else gives a shit about our side conversation. Two people does not a derail make.
#36varusword75, Posted: Apr 15 2011 at 9:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
#37 Apr 15 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Perhaps you should spend some more time in college learning what the word 'expectation' means.


Why do that when you could just look it up online for free? I thought you were against overspending.
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#38 Apr 15 2011 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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I'm all for a change of the law. Politicians (or really, any public figure) should be under scrutiny. If they want to be in the public eye, then put the bastards under a magnifying glass and let them deal with the consequences. My issue is the reason for this change is absolutely petty. Okay, his birth certificate isn't as complete (but still legit by the current standard) as the losers' party wants it to be. Instead of constantly going after the last guy, just make it so the next guy can't sneak through. Its like having a sworn statement of a police report thrown out because the suspect didn't cross the t in his name, and **** if I haven't seen that happen before.

Really, get the law made, and drop it for the current administration. He's not doing any worse at this than the last six or so guys.
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#39varusword75, Posted: Apr 15 2011 at 9:53 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lolgax,
#40 Apr 15 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
We don't know if it's complete or not. That's the problem.
So the problem is even more petty than I originally suspected.
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#41 Apr 15 2011 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
lolgax,

Quote:
Okay, his birth certificate isn't as complete (but still legit by the current standard) as the losers' party wants it to be


We don't know if it's complete or not. That's the problem.

That's because you don't want it to be complete. It was acceptable to the standards of the time. You change the standards and now Obama has to be reborn (in the USA) in order to meet those standards.
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#42SwiftAusterity, Posted: Apr 15 2011 at 10:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't expect to derail threads that have subjects which themselves are the most enormous derailments of national discourse in modern times.
#43 Apr 15 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't expect to derail threads that have subjects which themselves are the most enormous derailments of national discourse in modern times.

Aside from that, my ROI is already through the roof given my initial investment in the derailment was almost 0. Differently colored text added as a rider on a post that was actually on topic not targetting anyone specific; it's all about the ROI.
I feel stupider for reading this.
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#44 Apr 15 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Kinda a pointless bill. If they didn't print the name of a presidential candidate by denying the birth record presented from any other state, they'd be in violation of the Full Faith and Credit clause.

varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
certificate of live birth from Hawaii


about that;

Quote:
His online Certification of Live Birth is a document that has been obtained for babies not born in Hawaii, because the state's loose laws required only a declaration by a family member or witness in the case of unattended births.


The newspaper notices of birth that she cited, several days after the birth, were generated automatically by the state health department and were given to the newspapers, which did not independently check them. The notice would have been generated by the system should someone have registered Barack Obama's birth in Hawaii, whether he was born there or not.


The president has declined – and has fought in court – efforts to obtain access to his college records, Punahou records, records as an Illinois state lawmaker, college application and financial aid information records, other college records, adoption records and others.

Little information has been revealed about his travels, including his time spent in Pakistan.


Even the marriage and divorce records for his mother have not been released.


Read more: Obama's half-sister joins eligibility talk-show tour <lol WND article>



I'm sorry but you don't fight to have all your records sealed, and I mean all of them from birth to college to state lawmaker, unless you have something to hide.
He didn't fight to have the records sealed. The certificate of live birth is not used for "babies not born in Hawaii". Obama has not fought this in court, ever. Cases requesting other private information such as college records/applications have been thrown out because of their illegality on the part of the requesting party. It is Hawaii law that birth certificates can only be released to specific people under certain circumstances, which was done 3 years ago when the issue came up. If you were anyone else other than gbaji/Alma I'd be shocked at how much you can get factually wrong in one sitting.

varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
Working in a University, I can tell you for a fact that all records on admissions, applications, and financial aid are naturally sealed


And people running for president should have the expectation that what they've done in college or as a lawmaker should be open to the public for scrutiny.
No, "what they've done in college" should not be made public. That is completely contrary to the academic freedom of sifting and winnowing.

varusword75 wrote:
lolgax,

Quote:
Okay, his birth certificate isn't as complete (but still legit by the current standard) as the losers' party wants it to be


We don't know if it's complete or not. That's the problem.
Yes, we do.



Edited, Apr 15th 2011 11:49am by bsphil
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#45 Apr 15 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
He didn't fight to have the records sealed. The certificate of live birth is not used for "babies not born in Hawaii". Obama has not fought this in court, ever.

Well, I'm assuming his attorneys filed motions to dismiss. The reports that he spent a bajillion dollars hiding it are completely fabricated though. At best, people try to point to FEC declarations of $X to some law firm or another while ignoring the fact that a political campaign may have uses for lawyers beyond Birther nuttiness. Any campaign organization is going to keep attorneys on retainer anyway and getting them to fire off some boilerplate motions isn't exactly a major expense.
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#46 Apr 15 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
bsphil wrote:
He didn't fight to have the records sealed. The certificate of live birth is not used for "babies not born in Hawaii". Obama has not fought this in court, ever.
Well, I'm assuming his attorneys filed motions to dismiss. The reports that he spent a bajillion dollars hiding it are completely fabricated though. At best, people try to point to FEC declarations of $X to some law firm or another while ignoring the fact that a political campaign may have uses for lawyers beyond Birther nuttiness. Any campaign organization is going to keep attorneys on retainer anyway and getting them to fire off some boilerplate motions isn't exactly a major expense.
Fair, was mainly referring to the claim of drawn out, secret underground court battles with millions of dollars put up front by Obama to ensure his dirty secret would never reach the light of day.

I was inarticulate.
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#47 Apr 15 2011 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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SwiftAusterity wrote:
It's hidden to me, that's all I care about ;)

It has once again served it's purpose as well, which is described in my posting location text.


Well, stop being so self-satisfied about it, at least. No one thinks it's clever. No one thinks you are clever.

It's a stupid posting gimmick that suggests everyone's far more interested in what you really have to say (oh! he was being ironic! how droll) than they really are.
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#48 Apr 15 2011 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
Kavekk wrote:
SwiftAusterity wrote:
It's hidden to me, that's all I care about ;)

It has once again served it's purpose as well, which is described in my posting location text.


Well, stop being so self-satisfied about it, at least. No one thinks it's clever. No one thinks you are clever.

It's a stupid posting gimmick that suggests everyone's far more interested in what you really have to say (oh! he was being ironic! how droll) than they really are.
Smiley: laughSmiley: lolSmiley: nod
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Nilatai wrote:
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#49 Apr 15 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
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TILT
I use the EQ Classic stylesheet and have no idea what you people are talking about.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#50 Apr 15 2011 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
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16,039 posts
Jophiel wrote:
I use the EQ Classic stylesheet and have no idea what you people are talking about.
Ditto.

This is a true instance of blissful ignorance.
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Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#51 Apr 15 2011 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
Under A Thumb...
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10,008 posts
So under this new Arizona law, can the Prince of Belgium run and serve as President of the United States? Because Prince Philippe, Duke of Brabant, is a descendant of the Marquis de La Fayette, who was declared a natural born citizen along with every male heir in perpetuity.

That should pass the mustard right?
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