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#102 Mar 19 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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EDIT: BBC and Sky News also reporting that Gadaffi has threatened attacks against NATO and UN airbases in Cyprus and Southern Italy, god Allah @#%^ing help him if he's that stupid.


No, it's the correct move as he has already lost.
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#103 Mar 19 2011 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's interesting to me that France as been the most vocal about the whole situation. Usually it's the US pushing for action at the UN. Reading BBC, it seems we took a backseat while France and the UK piped it up. Whatever gets the job done.
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#104 Mar 19 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully this will get resolved rather quickly and with minor US intervention (no US ground troops, etc).
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#105 Mar 19 2011 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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OmegaTyrant wrote:
Hopefully this will get resolved rather quickly and with minor US intervention (no US ground troops, etc).

From the sound of it, the US participation is going to be restricted to drones, missiles and support aircraft for refueling, surveillance and communications jamming. No manned combat flights.
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#106 Mar 19 2011 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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klausneck wrote:
It's interesting to me that France as been the most vocal about the whole situation. Usually it's the US pushing for action at the UN. Reading BBC, it seems we took a backseat while France and the UK piped it up. Whatever gets the job done.

It's actually kind of nice for the US to take more of a support role this time.
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#107 Mar 20 2011 at 2:35 AM Rating: Good
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Kastigir wrote:
klausneck wrote:
It's interesting to me that France as been the most vocal about the whole situation. Usually it's the US pushing for action at the UN. Reading BBC, it seems we took a backseat while France and the UK piped it up. Whatever gets the job done.

It's actually kind of nice for the US to take more of a support role this time.


Agreed. While I support the effort, I hope it stays as a support role. It's time some other NATO countries start taking the lead on stuff like this.
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#108 Mar 20 2011 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Kadhafi attacking Benghazi during what was supposed to be a cease fire is what's doomed him, it's gotten most of the EU to support NATO action. And now Kadhafi has pretty much declared war on the rest of the world, at least he's going out with a bang.
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#109 Mar 20 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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It's good NATO is leading this, the US doesnt' need to be seen to be steping on another Middle-Eastern/Northern African country.

It's kind of taken me by surprise we're going into Libya. Several months ago, I was hoping with all my heart we wouldn't, back when the US was talking about Libya getting nukes, and what a bad thing that would be. As far as I was concerned, no-one had a right to invade a sovereign nation, and nuclear détente is just something the world has to live with, and has been living with for a long time.

Then all the popular uprisings happened in the M-E against their own governments, and it seemed right to support what seems to be the majority of the citizenry in uprisings. Thankfully elsewhere the army wouldn't take on it's own citizens, but in Libya and elsewhere, foreign troops have been brought in, who don't care what the national citizens there want. That hardly seems fair, and I'm on the side of supporting citizens in a civil war like this.

At least where it's pretty clear where the numbers lie.

Edited, Mar 20th 2011 10:27am by Aripyanfar
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#110 Mar 20 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
OmegaTyrant wrote:
Hopefully this will get resolved rather quickly and with minor US intervention (no US ground troops, etc).
From the sound of it, the US participation is going to be restricted to drones, missiles and support aircraft for refueling, surveillance and communications jamming. No manned combat flights.
I like the sound of that.
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#111 Mar 20 2011 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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Kastigir wrote:
klausneck wrote:
It's interesting to me that France as been the most vocal about the whole situation. Usually it's the US pushing for action at the UN. Reading BBC, it seems we took a backseat while France and the UK piped it up. Whatever gets the job done.

It's actually kind of nice for the US to take more of a support role this time.
It seems US has been leading the strike so far under General Carter Ham. frickenbreakfastmeats!
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#112 Mar 20 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ironically, its those drones, missiles and support aircraft that are the single most expensive piece to an operation like this. Oh well, its good training for the missile crews. they don;t get to practice fire many of those for some reason.
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#113 Mar 21 2011 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
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Hopefully not only will this avoid making America seem like the big bad interloper in other nations' affairs, but will also send a message to the developing world that the developed world at large won't stand for these injustices. It'd be nice if the perception goes from US= bully, to developed nations= better keep your sh*t straight.
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#114 Mar 21 2011 at 4:48 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Hopefully not only will this avoid making America seem like the big bad interloper in other nations' affairs, but will also send a message to the developing world that the developed world at large won't stand for these injustices. It'd be nice if the perception goes from US= bully, to developed nations= better keep your sh*t straight.
It's still the West @#%^ing with the rest of the world. That's all the ME will see.
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#115 Mar 21 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Hopefully not only will this avoid making America seem like the big bad interloper in other nations' affairs, but will also send a message to the developing world that the developed world at large won't stand for these injustices. It'd be nice if the perception goes from US= bully, to developed nations= better keep your sh*t straight.


This has nothing to do with injustices. If Libya wasn't sitting on so much oil, the rest of the world would sit back and watch.
#116 Mar 21 2011 at 6:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
It's still the West @#%^ing with the rest of the world. That's all the ME will see.

In theory, that's why the West waited for the Arab League to agree with a no-fly zone before tkaing it to the UN. Qatar and the United Arab Emirates are supposed to be flying patrols so there's a ME presence.

Of course: "In theory..."
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#117varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 7:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#118 Mar 21 2011 at 8:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:

“They consulted the Arab League. They consulted the United Nations. They did not consult the United States Congress,” one Democrat lawmaker said of the White House. “They’re creating wreckage, and they can’t obviate that by saying there are no boots on the ground. … There aren’t boots on the ground; there are Tomahawks in the air.”




http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51595.html


At least W got approval from congress to deal with Iraq.

Is this where you start talking about Obama's unilateral decision to resolve this?


I could be wrong, but can't the president use the military for like... 60 or 90 days without going to Congress? I seem to recall that was done back in the beginning of Vietnam. If Obama expects the mission to last more than a few months he'll go to Congress.
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#119 Mar 21 2011 at 8:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Is this where you start talking about Obama's unilateral decision to resolve this?

Commander-in-Chief
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And you used to teach Social Studies? Hahahaha... thank God you failed out of THAT job.
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#120varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 8:40 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#121 Mar 21 2011 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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#122varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 10:52 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#123 Mar 21 2011 at 10:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Heh.
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#124 Mar 21 2011 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Obviously sarcasm isn't your cup of tea.
Ahahaha. Yeah, you were just being sarcastic. Suuuuuure...
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#125varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 11:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 3 pages later and not to many Dems jumping to defend Obama's current foreign policy blunder.
#126 Mar 21 2011 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
3 pages later and not to many Dems jumping to defend Obama's current foreign policy blunder.



I'm still scratching my head at how you can be against Obama taking military action in Libya. Like Iraq, Libya's got oil. Like Iraq, they have a dictator. Unlike Iraq, the UN actually supports taking military action. Unlike Iraq, the people rose up before we started fighting there. Unlike Iraq, we hopefully won't see any casualties nor a dragged-out war.

It's pretty much all good and no bad. We act as the world police, are seen as heroes, and get to fire off some explosives costing tax-payers millions of dollars. Might even get a good oil deal out of it. From a Republican POV, it's pretty much the perfect fight.
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#127 Mar 21 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
3 pages later and not to many Dems jumping to defend Obama's current foreign policy blunder.



I'm still scratching my head at how you can be against Obama taking military action in Libya. Like Iraq, Libya's got oil. Like Iraq, they have a dictator. Unlike Iraq, the UN actually supports taking military action. Unlike Iraq, the people rose up before we started fighting there. Unlike Iraq, we hopefully won't see any casualties nor a dragged-out war.

It's pretty much all good and no bad. We act as the world police, are seen as heroes, and get to fire off some explosives costing tax-payers millions of dollars. Might even get a good oil deal out of it. From a Republican POV, it's pretty much the perfect fight.

My first post in this thread was largely tongue in cheek. The difference is that this is a civil war. We have no business getting militarily involved in a civil war.

On Iraq, the United Nations Security Council passed multiple resolutions authorizing the use of force in Iraq. Suggesting that they didn't support the action is just a bit hollow.
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#128varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 11:55 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
#129 Mar 21 2011 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
3 pages later and not to many Dems jumping to defend Obama's current foreign policy blunder.



I'm still scratching my head at how you can be against Obama taking military action in Libya.
derrrr,

If Obama had done a 180 and declared the US will not intervene in Libya, do you suppose Varus would be placated,.. or would he too do a similar 180 to remain always, at all times, diametrically opposed to our pres?
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#130varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 12:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Elinda,
#131 Mar 21 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,

So in essence opposing Obama is the american freedom loving way to go.

I see.
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#132 Mar 21 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Elinda,

So in essence opposing Obama is the american freedom loving way to go.

I see.


That pretty much says it all. Varus is literally his own party of no Smiley: nod
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#133 Mar 21 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meanwhile, in Yemen, Al Jazeera is reporting that 60% of the army had defected and there are 'rebel' tanks at demonstrations now protecting the protesters.
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#134 Mar 21 2011 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Meanwhile, in Yemen, Al Jazeera is reporting that 60% of the army had defected and there are 'rebel' tanks at demonstrations now protecting the protesters.
That's pretty cool but also speaks pretty strongly to the fitness of Gadhafi as the leader of Libya.
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#135varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 1:25 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
#136varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 1:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#137 Mar 21 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
That pretty much says it all. Varus is literally his own party of no


No more taxes.

No more capitulation to radical muslims.

No more funding welfare.

No more capitulation to union thugs.

No more impractical greeny energy solutions.


You're right I am the party of no. I say yesno to freedom and yesno to personal choices and responsibilities.



You say no to peeps to be free to be Muslim, or Jewish or Hindi or Atheist, or Gay or Female. You say no to peeps to be free to organize on their own behalf. You say no to peeps to be free to breath clean air or drink clean water that has been unpolluted by others.


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#138 Mar 21 2011 at 1:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Meanwhile, in Yemen, Al Jazeera is reporting that 60% of the army had defected and there are 'rebel' tanks at demonstrations now protecting the protesters.
That's pretty cool but also speaks pretty strongly to the fitness of Gadhafi as the leader of Libya.

I'm not sure if I'm not following you or you're not following me. A significant portion of the Yemeni army (in Yemen, natch) is defecting after last week's protests in which Yemeni snipers fired upon demonstrators, killing at least forty.

Supposedly several commanders (including at least one armored division) have defected, which are the tanks now protecting the demonstrations.
Al Jazeera wrote:
Following a wave of defections, Mohammad Nasser Ali, Yemen's defence minister, appeared on state television on Monday maintaining that the army still backed Saleh.
[...]
But in the streets of Sanaa, the Yemeni capital, rival tanks were ranged against each other after three senior army commanders announced that they backed the protesters.
[...]
Earlier Major General Ali Mohsen Saleh, the head of the north western military zone and the head of the first armoured division, announced his support for the protesters.

Brigadier Hameed Al Koshebi, the head of brigade 310 in the Omran area, Brigadier Mohammed Ali Mohsen, who heads the eastern division, Brigadier Nasser Eljahori, the head of brigade 121, and General Ali Abdullaha Aliewa, an adviser to the Yemeni supreme leader of the army also deserted the president.


Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:55pm by Jophiel
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#139varusword75, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 1:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Elinda,
#140 Mar 21 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Meanwhile, in Yemen, Al Jazeera is reporting that 60% of the army had defected and there are 'rebel' tanks at demonstrations now protecting the protesters.
That's pretty cool but also speaks pretty strongly to the fitness of Gadhafi as the leader of Libya.

I'm not sure if I'm not following you or you're not following me. A significant portion of the Yemeni army (in Yemen, natch) is defecting after last week's protests in which Yemeni snipers fired upon demonstrators, killing at least forty.

Supposedly several commanders (including at least one armored division) have defected, which are the tanks now protecting the demonstrations.
Al Jazeera wrote:
Following a wave of defections, Mohammad Nasser Ali, Yemen's defence minister, appeared on state television on Monday maintaining that the army still backed Saleh.
[...]
But in the streets of Sanaa, the Yemeni capital, rival tanks were ranged against each other after three senior army commanders announced that they backed the protesters.
[...]
Earlier Major General Ali Mohsen Saleh, the head of the north western military zone and the head of the first armoured division, announced his support for the protesters.

Brigadier Hameed Al Koshebi, the head of brigade 310 in the Omran area, Brigadier Mohammed Ali Mohsen, who heads the eastern division, Brigadier Nasser Eljahori, the head of brigade 121, and General Ali Abdullaha Aliewa, an adviser to the Yemeni supreme leader of the army also deserted the president.


Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:55pm by Jophiel
No, or, yes. I had read your other post as saying that there was a report, out of Yeman, that the Libyan army was defecting...... take it from there. My bad.
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#141 Mar 21 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Is this where you start talking about Obama's unilateral decision to resolve this?

Commander-in-Chief
War Powers Resolution



Hi.

I'm just trying to figure out how your link helps in proving that Obama has powers to unilaterally, as El Presidente, declare war on Libya without going thru Congress...

You link says,

Quote:
The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541–1548) was a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat.


Libya wasn't a threat to the US and he didn't go thru congress.

I know he believes that he is allowed to murder and torture people because 'he's the prez' but attacking another country? Doesn't seem right to me (going by your own written rules).

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#142 Mar 21 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Is this where you start talking about Obama's unilateral decision to resolve this?

Commander-in-Chief
War Powers Resolution



Hi.

I'm just trying to figure out how your link helps in proving that Obama has powers to unilaterally, as El Presidente, declare war on Libya without going thru Congress...

You link says,

Quote:
The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541–1548) was a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat.


Libya wasn't a threat to the US and he didn't go thru congress.

I know he believes that he is allowed to murder and torture people because 'he's the prez' but attacking another country? Doesn't seem right to me (going by your own written rules).



Err...are we technically "at war"? We Americans get a little tricksy with that word's definition.
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#143 Mar 21 2011 at 3:23 PM Rating: Default
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Eske Esquire wrote:

Err...are we technically "at war"? We Americans get a little tricksy with that word's definition.


Dropping bombs into, and shooting missiles at another country with the intention of blowing stuff up and killing people....Yeah. I'd pretty much define that as 'war'.

Why? What would you call it?
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#144 Mar 21 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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#145 Mar 21 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
Hi.

Hiya.
Quote:
I'm just trying to figure out how your link helps in proving that Obama has powers to unilaterally, as El Presidente, declare war on Libya without going thru Congress...

Ok, sure. Glad to help.
Quote:
You link says,
Quote:
The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (50 U.S.C. 1541–1548) was a United States Congress joint resolution providing that the President can send U.S. armed forces into action abroad only by authorization of Congress or if the United States is already under attack or serious threat.

That's true. But had you read the entire thing, you would have seen it also says:
lolwiki wrote:
The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30 day withdrawal period, without an authorization of the use of military force or a declaration of war.

In short, the War Powers Resolution allows the Commander-in-Chief to deploy the military and then notify Congress with the reason. The Commander-in-Chief can only keep these forces active for sixty days without Congressional approval at which point there's a thirty day drawing-down period. It's basically a balance between the president's constitutional authority to command the military and Congress's authority to declare war. In this case, the UN Resolution passed on Thursday night with the forces first deployed into combat over the weekend (before Benghazi fell) while Congress was not in session -- in a perfect world, you would notify Congress first but then the perfect world apparently doesn't have Congress off on the weekends. Presumably, Congress was notified today.

I'm glad I could help.

Edited, Mar 21st 2011 4:35pm by Jophiel
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#146 Mar 21 2011 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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paulsol wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:

Err...are we technically "at war"? We Americans get a little tricksy with that word's definition.


Dropping bombs into, and shooting missiles at another country with the intention of blowing stuff up and killing people....Yeah. I'd pretty much define that as 'war'.

Why? What would you call it?


A "military action"? The problem is that there have been numerous historical precedents for the President to use military force in a short term and/or limited way without having to get Congressional approval before hand. These have usually been limited to small air strikes on terrorist camps, or to engage take quick action to protect interests and assets around the globe. This action pretty clearly went well beyond that, and frankly well beyond any previously accepted definition of a "no-fly zone".

I suspect that Obama is figuring out how hard it is to stand by his promise not to do anything unilaterally. The reality is that what the US, France, and UK are doing in Libya is the right thing to do (help the rebels defeat Khadaffi), but there's no way to get the UN to support that precise action. So instead of doing things unilaterally (or at least without UN approval), they got a resolution to do one thing (a no-fly zone), and are embarking on an entirely different military mission instead. I'm not sure if that's a better way to get around the UN's general opposition to any sort of firm "pick a side and win" approach to these sorts of situations.

I still maintain that had we (we being any combination of US, France, or UK) taken action 1.5-2 weeks ago, we probably could have allowed the rebels to win with just a no-fly approach *and* could have avoided the perception of overbearing western interference in this affair *and* avoided the inevitable second round of conflict that's going to happen as a result of that. All the rhetoric in the world about how this is the rebel's fight to win or lose doesn't change the fact that now that this level of involvement has been entered into, after having waited long enough for it to be clear that the rebels could not win without it, has erased any doubt that this result of this civil war will be entirely up to the actions of western powers.


IMO, that's going to cause us yet more problems down the line.
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#147 Mar 21 2011 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
So instead of doing things unilaterally (or at least without UN approval), they got a resolution to do one thing (a no-fly zone)...

Two things: Create/enforce the no-fly zone and prevent Gaddafi from attacking civilians or civilian population centers. Blowing up an armored column approaching Benghazi is within their mandate. Coordinating with the rebels to provide air support for a military match-up in the desert would (I expect) be another matter.

Edit: Apparently Obama met with Congressional leaders on Friday about Libya and sent a letter to the Speaker today. Constitutional consent crisis averted!
CBS wrote:
President Obama met with congressional leaders at the White House on Friday to discuss the situation in Libya, and today, he sent a letter to House Speaker John Boehner outlining the nature of the operations there.

"Left unaddressed, the growing instability in Libya could ignite wider instability in the Middle East, with dangerous consequences to the national security interests of the United States," the letter says. Mr. Obama added, "I am providing this report as part of my efforts to keep the Congress fully informed, consistent with the War Powers Resolution. I appreciate the support of the Congress in this action."


Edited, Mar 21st 2011 5:42pm by Jophiel
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#148paulsol, Posted: Mar 21 2011 at 4:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Surely that means that he needs to tell Congress within 48 hours that he has used the Military because the 'US was under attack', not "Oh, by the way, while you guys were lazing around at the weekend, I used our armed forces to attack a country that was of no threat to the US".
#149 Mar 21 2011 at 4:54 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:

Err...are we technically "at war"? We Americans get a little tricksy with that word's definition.


Dropping bombs into, and shooting missiles at another country with the intention of blowing stuff up and killing people....Yeah. I'd pretty much define that as 'war'.

Why? What would you call it?


Christ you're touchy lately. Smiley: rolleyes
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#150 Mar 21 2011 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
Surely that means that he needs to tell Congress within 48 hours that he has used the Military because the 'US was under attack'...

Nope, it doesn't.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#151 Mar 21 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
So instead of doing things unilaterally (or at least without UN approval), they got a resolution to do one thing (a no-fly zone)...

Two things: Create/enforce the no-fly zone and prevent Gaddafi from attacking civilians or civilian population centers.


There's some question as to whether the language was intended to allow for attacks on additional forces not related to air operations in order to accomplish that though.

Quote:
Blowing up an armored column approaching Benghazi is within their mandate.


Yet that's exactly what the Arab League is condemning. There's some obvious question as to whether they expected that the additional language to "protect civilians from attack" included blowing up every tank or artillery unit within 30 miles of any city currently held by rebels.

Quote:
Coordinating with the rebels to provide air support for a military match-up in the desert would (I expect) be another matter.


And dropping missiles and bombs onto (non-air) military bases and command and control locations in Tripoli? That would kinda be outside the mandate as well, right?

The point here is that there's some disagreement even on the application of the "protect civilians" language in the resolution, and the actions being taken go well beyond even that anyway. This is not being seen in the Arab world as mere protection of civilians. It's seen (correctly) as western military might being used to defeat Khadaffi and to kill his military forces. I happen to agree that that is what is necessary, but I'm not sure if this method of getting "approval" for the mission was really the right way to go about it.
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