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#52 Mar 16 2011 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
When they have 75% of the country under their control as the Libyans did, let me know. Or else, you know, just grab random examples and say they're all the same.



So, you only think oppressed poeple are deserving of your military largesse if they look like they might win?

Ok. Gotcha.
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#53 Mar 16 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Who would be stupid enough to side with the losers?
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#54 Mar 16 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm guessing that's somehow supposed to be stinging coming from someone whose opinion is to stay home and just watch everyone suffer?

Color me ever-so-hurt :(

But I suppose now that the Libyans are begging for help and the Arab League said "There should be a no-fly zone", this is the best you have left. Oh well, Paulsol says "fuck them", so there ya go. If you can't help everyone, best thing to do is to help no one.
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#55paulsol, Posted: Mar 16 2011 at 2:19 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) The arabs and africans can sort Libya out if they want to. They have common borders. You don't. Its none of your business.
#56 Mar 16 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
The arabs and africans can sort Libya out if they want to. They have common borders. You don't. Its none of your business.

And yet the Libyans are asking for our help. Oh well, screw you guys... none of our business. Have fun dying!

You're ALL heart!

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If you end up fighting on one side or another in Libya, then why not Bahrain/Syria/Saudi/Coted'Ivoire/Nth Korea/Burma

And why should I adopt one cat if I can't adopt EVERY stray cat, right? Why turn in one criminal if I can't stop ALL crime? Why preserve one patch of ground if I can't stop EVERY rainforest for deforestation?

Sorry Libyans! Beg more for help but Paulsol says you're just shit not to be bothered with unless we save the entire planet!
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#57 Mar 16 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Paul if our government didn't sell weapon systems to dictators, we would lose what few manufacturing jobs still available for the Blue Collar workers in America. Smiley: wink

Death, it what we sell best here in the land of the Free (That is free as in only for those that make over 250k and/or a major donor to both political parties war chests.)
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#58paulsol, Posted: Mar 16 2011 at 2:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And you're so enthusiastic to join the ware in Libya...why, exactly?
#59 Mar 16 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
And you're so enthusiastic to join the ware in Libya...why, exactly?

I said why. I'm more curious why you're so worried about America (Britain, France, et al) getting involved and why you're so convinced that the Libyans are not worth helping. No one is asking you to do shit.
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Offer genuine assistance (not more weaponry) when the dust settles.

Shovels for their graves?
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#60 Mar 16 2011 at 3:11 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
paulsol wrote:
And you're so enthusiastic to join the ware in Libya...why, exactly?

I said why. I'm more curious why you're so worried about America (Britain, France, et al) getting involved and why you're so convinced that the Libyans are not worth helping.



because theose countries have a pretty atrocious record when it comes to 'helping'. Not sure why you think it would be better this time. And you dont say why you are so keen to help the Libyans, as opposed to the Bahrainis/Saudis/Burmese etc.


Jophiel wrote:
No one is asking you to do shit.



And your suggestion in bringing peace to an area is to use more weapons. Awesome logic. I guess there's some money to be made tho'. More jobs for the US?


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Shovels for their graves?



Its not my fault you have no imagination.
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#61 Mar 16 2011 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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#62 Mar 16 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
And you dont say why you are so keen to help the Libyans, as opposed to the Bahrainis/Saudis/Burmese etc.

Sure I did. I noted that we had a much greater chance for success (well, did) in Libya. Then you started in with "Oh ho! You'll only help people when you think you might win!" because that's so much worse than refusing to help anyone at all.

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And your suggestion in bringing peace to an area is to use more weapons. Awesome logic.

Sure. You know, to disable the ones being used to kill the rebels? You know, how every report in the last week about the rebels losing ground attributed it to rocket and fighter attacks? The same ones that had Libyans begging for support? Silly me, they were probably asking for something besides weapons!

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I guess there's some money to be made tho'. More jobs for the US?

Yup, me with my long record of war-mongering for the benefit of the military-industrial complex. You got me.

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Its not my fault you have no imagination.

It's your fault that you'd rather let them die though, so you have at least one area for improvement.
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#63 Mar 16 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
paulsol wrote:
And you dont say why you are so keen to help the Libyans, as opposed to the Bahrainis/Saudis/Burmese etc.

Sure I did. I noted that we had a much greater chance for success (well, did) in Libya.




I said wrote:
So, you only think oppressed poeple are deserving of your military largesse if they look like they might win?



....And in the meantime continue to actively support oppression in all the countries that you benefit from that oppression.






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#64 Mar 16 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
paulsol wrote:
And you dont say why you are so keen to help the Libyans, as opposed to the Bahrainis/Saudis/Burmese etc.

Sure I did. I noted that we had a much greater chance for success (well, did) in Libya.




I said wrote:
So, you only think oppressed poeple are deserving of your military largesse if they look like they might win?



....And in the meantime continue to actively support oppression in all the countries that you benefit from that oppression.








But Libya specifically requested this level of military intervention. That makes it different from the other countries that you named. And as Joph said, what's the implication here? That we shouldn't help one unless we help all the others?

Edited, Mar 16th 2011 5:39pm by Eske
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#65 Mar 16 2011 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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The lesson here is that Paulsol is more worried about whining and bitching about the US than actually seeing anyone get helped.

While I don't think people are only "deserving" of help if it looks as though we might win, I do believe that it's worth taking things situation by situation and not making blanket comparisons of one spot to another. The US can (could) accomplish something with air strikes in Libya that it couldn't accomplish in North Korea or Bahrain or whatever else is on his hit parade of places we need to save if we're going to help anywhere else. The Libyan rebels could have been helped with a no fly zone in a way that such a zone would be meaningless elsewhere.

There's legitimate reasons for not wanting to get involved. I disagree that that reasons should lead to that conclusion but those reasons sure as hell aren't "You're not saving every other spot in the world so there!"
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#66 Mar 16 2011 at 5:21 PM Rating: Default
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but those reasons sure as hell aren't "You're not saving every other spot in the world so there!"


Thats not even close to what my reasons are for the West to get involved in yet another war.


I believe that given the chance people will achieve what they believe to be right for themselves. After all they are the ones willing to fight for it.


You seem to believe that they are incapable of that on their own without the civilised West showing them how to do it.

Its not a very charitable view of their abilities imo.


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#67 Mar 16 2011 at 5:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol wrote:
You seem to believe that they are incapable of that on their own without the civilised West showing them how to do it.

Its not a very charitable view of their abilities imo.

Again, that would so very very cutting if, you know, they weren't begging for our help. But great point!

"Hey, fuck you guys! If you cared enough, you'd do it yourself! Just like we did except for that help from France..."
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#68 Mar 16 2011 at 5:33 PM Rating: Good
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paulsol wrote:
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but those reasons sure as hell aren't "You're not saving every other spot in the world so there!"


Thats not even close to what my reasons are for the West to get involved in yet another war.


I believe that given the chance people will achieve what they believe to be right for themselves. After all they are the ones willing to fight for it.


You seem to believe that they are incapable of that on their own without the civilised West showing them how to do it.

Its not a very charitable view of their abilities imo.




No. It's the rational recognizance that with modern tools of war, A group equipped with modern tools and weapons can slay another at 1000 to 1 odds, and then they alone measure whether their actions are just. It's the rational recognizance that we have superior killing tools than a civilian population. It's the recognizance that having those capabilities means we do have the power to decide a conflict, and in a way that improves our situation. Americans did not win their independence from Britain without the help of outside nations willing to give them weapons, and those weapons were orders of magnitude less powerful than modern weapons.

A revolution without adequate weaponry in the modern age is genocide.
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#69 Mar 16 2011 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
No, reserving your support until it is needed is a perfectly valid strategy. It's much better for the rebels politically if they overthrow Qaddafi without outside intervention, so not coming out of the gate with heavy pressure is actually preferable. However, now that they are in much rougher shape, they will be more open to (And appreciative of, politically, which is to our benefit) outside aid.


Even if that were the strategy (and I'm not sure it was), it wouldn't work. If your concern is making it look like the rebels are somehow beholden to us for their success, then waiting until they really need our help kinda defeats the purpose.


I don't think you understood what TLW was saying there.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#70 Mar 16 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Default
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
No, reserving your support until it is needed is a perfectly valid strategy. It's much better for the rebels politically if they overthrow Qaddafi without outside intervention, so not coming out of the gate with heavy pressure is actually preferable. However, now that they are in much rougher shape, they will be more open to (And appreciative of, politically, which is to our benefit) outside aid.


Even if that were the strategy (and I'm not sure it was), it wouldn't work. If your concern is making it look like the rebels are somehow beholden to us for their success, then waiting until they really need our help kinda defeats the purpose.


I don't think you understood what TLW was saying there.


I bolded a few more words which you apparently skipped right over that show that I did.

I'll also admit that my sentence wasn't as clear as it could have been. Replace it with:

"If your concern is that it might appear as though the rebels are beholden to us for their success...". Re-reading it, it occurs to me that you could interpret what I wrote to mean the exact opposite of what I meant. I wasn't clear what direction the concern lies. To be clear though, I was saying that if you don't want it to look like the rebels only succeeded because we helped them, then waiting until they really need our help and then swooping in to save the say is pretty counter productive.
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#71 Mar 16 2011 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
I'll also admit that my sentence wasn't as clear as it could have been.


Fair enough. The only answer there is not helping them at all, regardless.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#72 Mar 16 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll also admit that my sentence wasn't as clear as it could have been.


Fair enough. The only answer there is not helping them at all, regardless.

Mission accomplished?
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#73 Mar 16 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Christian Science Monitor wrote:
The rebel-held Libyan city of Ajdabiya has come under a withering rocket and warplane assault from Muammar Qaddafi’s forces as leaders of the stalled revolution continued to plead for an international no-fly zone. Mr. Qaddafi's son boasted that the revolt would soon be crushed.

Let them take care of it themselves if they really want it. They don't want our help anyway! A no-fly zone would do nothing!
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#74 Mar 16 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll also admit that my sentence wasn't as clear as it could have been.


Fair enough. The only answer there is not helping them at all, regardless.


Not at all. I was just saying that *if* the whole plan was to wait until the rebels really needed our help, then doing so out of a respect for the rebel's desire to not appear to need our help is a really dumb reason for doing so. A legitimate reason would be that we do in fact want the rebels to be beholden to us, so that we can gain a seat at the table if/when they win.

Honestly, the whole point is kinda moot. Like I said before, the rebels started asking for help with the Libyan air forces over a week ago, and we did nothing but talk about it. Now, those air forces have been used in critical battles which have forced the rebels back to a point where I don't think it's possible for them to recover. Wait and see turned into "wait and ensure we have no choice to make anymore".
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#75 Mar 16 2011 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Christian Science Monitor wrote:
The rebel-held Libyan city of Ajdabiya has come under a withering rocket and warplane assault from Muammar Qaddafi’s forces as leaders of the stalled revolution continued to plead for an international no-fly zone. Mr. Qaddafi's son boasted that the revolt would soon be crushed.

Let them take care of it themselves if they really want it. They don't want our help anyway! A no-fly zone would do nothing!



Theres some doctors in the main hospital in Bahrain pleading for help to protect their patients from Bahraini and Saudi troops too. Its not too late for you to wade in there and do some good. Or were you waiting for things to develop a bit more first?
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#76 Mar 16 2011 at 8:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, and...?

Are you still clinging to this pathetic "But then what about... THESE GUYS??" argument? Are you trying to compare the current situation there to the one in Libya?

I also missed the part of that article where doctors were calling for military intervention. Of course, the whole "But they never ASKED for help!" thing was your stupid excuse for why no one should get involved, not mine. I just keep showing how wrong you are for saying it.

Edited, Mar 16th 2011 9:21pm by Jophiel
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#77 Mar 17 2011 at 4:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Looks like we did attempt to arm the Libyans, but the covert channels were blocked due to another revolution in Saudi Arabia.

Meaning I was right, and the correct moves were being taken, they just failed.
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#78 Mar 17 2011 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
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Also, British assassins are more like Mr. Bean than Mr. Bond. At least they were picked up by the guys they weren't trying to kill.

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#79 Mar 17 2011 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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Why exactly we decided to fly in our amphibious marines instead of the SAS is a bit worrying...
#80 Mar 17 2011 at 6:28 AM Rating: Good
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Xakz wrote:


Why exactly we decided to fly in our amphibious marines instead of the SAS is a bit worrying...


Because they needed covert wetworks agents, and diplomats to discuss their use, not a point strike team. Totally different skill-sets.
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#81 Mar 17 2011 at 6:59 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Xakz wrote:


Why exactly we decided to fly in our amphibious marines instead of the SAS is a bit worrying...


Because they needed covert wetworks agents, and diplomats to discuss their use, not a point strike team. Totally different skill-sets.


Clearly it worked a treat

Edit: Just noticed it doesn't like the word "sniggers". Wonder why...

Edited, Mar 17th 2011 9:02am by Xakz
#82 Mar 17 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Xakz wrote:
Edit: Just noticed it doesn't like the word "sniggers". Wonder why...

Varus.
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#83 Mar 17 2011 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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Xakz wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Xakz wrote:


Why exactly we decided to fly in our amphibious marines instead of the SAS is a bit worrying...


Because they needed covert wetworks agents, and diplomats to discuss their use, not a point strike team. Totally different skill-sets.


Clearly it worked a treat

Edit: Just noticed it doesn't like the word "sniggers". Wonder why...

Edited, Mar 17th 2011 9:02am by Xakz


Uh, yeah they botched it. I thought that was the point?
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#84 Mar 17 2011 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Xakz wrote:
Edit: Just noticed it doesn't like the word "sniggers". Wonder why...

Varus.


Surely you could say that about everything and be right 99% of the time?

Timelordwho wrote:
Uh, yeah they botched it. I thought that was the point?


Meh it's a slow day here though I found it funny reading that article and hearing the rebels question why nobody told them in advance, what with the stability there and all. Least they didn't attempt to shoot the helicopter down I guess...
#85varusword75, Posted: Mar 17 2011 at 7:46 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#86 Mar 17 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Meh it's a slow day here though I found it funny reading that article and hearing the rebels question why nobody told them in advance, what with the stability there and all. Least they didn't attempt to shoot the helicopter down I guess...


Well, the rebels don't have all that coherent a governing body to tell, plus there is a sensitivity element to it, and they send actual diplomats to negotiate.
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#87 Mar 17 2011 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Like remember that time when we liberated a people from a homicidal mass murdering dictator just a few years ago?
Jophiel previously wrote:
While I don't think people are only "deserving" of help if it looks as though we might win, I do believe that it's worth taking things situation by situation and not making blanket comparisons of one spot to another.

Nice try?
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#88varusword75, Posted: Mar 17 2011 at 10:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#89 Mar 17 2011 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Grats on missing the point!
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#90 Mar 17 2011 at 10:47 AM Rating: Default
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varusword75 wrote:
Jophed,

Quote:
If you can't help everyone, best thing to do is to help no one.


You're right. Like remember that time when we liberated a people from a homicidal mass murdering dictator just a few years ago?




Dude, at least read the thread before making an idiot of yourself. Once you've done that, read this:

sarcasm (ˈsɑːkæzəm)

— n
1. mocking, contemptuous, or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult
2. the use or tone of such language
#91 Mar 17 2011 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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Joph,

I was making my own point thank you very much.

#92 Mar 17 2011 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
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paulsol wrote:
I hoe all the armchair warriors who want to have a no-fly zone over Libya enforced are willing to do the same for the Bahrainis....
Quote:

Military troops have opened a large-scale assault against hundreds of anti-government protesters occupying a landmark square in Bahrain's capital.

That really depends on how much our friendly neighborhood Saudis are getting involved. It would be a shame if we ended up opposed to the Desert Kingdom...
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#93 Mar 17 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
I was making my own point thank you very much.

As much as I'm sure your mom told you that you were a unique snowflake, you were really just reciting Paulsol's argument from the other angle. Which was just as stupid as when he made it.
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#94varusword75, Posted: Mar 17 2011 at 3:03 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#95 Mar 17 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Whatever makes you feel special.
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#96 Mar 17 2011 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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The UN Security Council voted in favor of a no-fly zone in Libya including "all necessary measures" to protect civilians. No votes against although Germany, Russia & China abstained.


Edited, Mar 17th 2011 5:59pm by Jophiel
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#97 Mar 19 2011 at 10:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm wondering how serious this is going to get, Gadaffi has clearly lost the plot and is now "apparently" threatening the west and the members of the UN in response to the resolution. He also seems to have not complied with the ceasefire. NATO and UN Airforces are arriving in Cyprus and there's reports that French fighter jets are already in the skies and en-route to Libya.

Do people think this is going to get a lot worse very soon?
The US administration has been a bit cautious with this situation, i can see why as well. He (Obama) most likely wants to avoid another Iraq, something the British/French Prime Minster's (David Cameron/Nicholas Sarkozy) have been keen to put out.


I hope to god that David Cameron and the whole UK House of Commons summons Tony Blair for questioning about his involvement with Gadaffi and by an extension the release of the Lockerbie Bomber. Blair has some serious answering to do, he's meant to be an envoy for the reigon now... what a joke.

Edited, Mar 19th 2011 12:14pm by Tatham
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#98 Mar 19 2011 at 10:21 AM Rating: Good
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They were reporting on the news tonight that French Fighter Jets are in Libya, and all I can think was that in twenty-four hours those jets will be flying back in surrender.
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#99 Mar 19 2011 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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#100 Mar 19 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Al Jazeera is reporting that French planes have attacked Libyan tanks.
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#101 Mar 19 2011 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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I give it a month until Gadaffi either flees the country or is captured/killed.
This is going to re-ignite the rebel cause, seeing cruise missiles and fighter jets blowing the sh*t out of your enemy must be uplifting...

EDIT: BBC and Sky News also reporting that Gadaffi has threatened attacks against NATO and UN airbases in Cyprus and Southern Italy, god Allah @#%^ing help him if he's that stupid.

Edited, Mar 19th 2011 6:44pm by Tatham
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