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#552gbaji, Posted: Apr 13 2011 at 8:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What's funny is that everyone claims this. But "everyone" is just repeating the claim. The law says this, so they must be in compliance with the law, right? So you're saying that not one penny of federal dollars paid for the building the abortion was performed in, or the salary of the person who handled the paperwork, or the counselor who spoke to the person who got the abortion, or the nurse who led her into the room, or the doctor who performed the procedure, or the cost for his parking space outside, or the paper the forms were printed on, or the equipment used to print said forms, or for any follow up care, or prescriptions, painkillers, advertisements, informational pamphlets, or any portion of anything the person who received an abortion interacted with in any way from the first moment she stepped into the door until she left after fully recovering from the procedure?
#553 Apr 13 2011 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
Wow, if you had any proof of this, you'd have a real scoop! Good luck with that.
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#554 Apr 13 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
What's funny is that everyone claims this. But "everyone" is just repeating the claim.

Whereas, if you read something in LifeNews.com, it MUST be true despite the lack of any supporting evidence. Everyone ELSE is just repeating stuff they heard though.
Quote:
So you're saying that not one penny of federal dollars paid for the building the abortion was performed in, or the salary of the person who handled the paperwork, or the counselor who spoke to the person who got the abortion, or the nurse who led her into the room, or the doctor who performed the procedure, or the cost for his parking space outside, or the paper the forms were printed on, or the equipment used to print said forms, or for any follow up care, or prescriptions, painkillers, advertisements, informational pamphlets, or any portion of anything the person who received an abortion interacted with in any way from the first moment she stepped into the door until she left after fully recovering from the procedure?

Proving a negative. Are you saying that one penny WAS? If so, show your work because a lot of people would love to hear it.

Well, technically people would yawn about 99% of that stuff since that's not how 'funding abortion' is classified any more than 'funding religion' is classified for federal grants to faith-based charities.[/quote]

[sm]Edited, Apr 13th 2011 10:07pm by Jophiel
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#555 Apr 13 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Could you just do me a favor and explain what the birth certificate lie is? I haven't heard about this.


Were you perhaps in orbit two years ago? How could you not know about that?

Short version: some right-leaners don't think that the candidates' vetting process is sufficient and insist that Obama needs to put his birth certificate on public display to prove that he wasn't actually born in Kenya.
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#556 Apr 13 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Default
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Samira wrote:
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Do they do other things? Sure. They do the occasional breast exam and whatnot, but I don't think anyone is under the misconception that abortion isn't the primary business that planned parenthood engages in.


Cite, please.



For what? Is there anyone who hears the name "Planned Parenthood" and doesn't immediately associate it with abortion? It is by far the largest single provider of abortion services in the US. As I stated earlier, businesses stand out for what they do that others don't, not the other way around. There are lots of health clinics which do not perform abortions (most of them in fact, since they refer their patients elsewhere). Meanwhile Planned Parenthood refers many of the services they provide to other health care providers (other than abortions, which are largely performed on sites owned by Planned Parenthood). Why is that? Because those other services can be obtained almost anywhere, so where it's cost effective, Planned Parenthood will refer rather than undertake the overhead for the care themselves. But they're pretty much it in terms of abortion services.


That's why I said what I said. It's what they do, so to speak. It's certainly what they are known for most. We can quibble over total numbers of services and visits and whatnot, but that really just sidesteps the larger issue, doesn't it?
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#557 Apr 13 2011 at 9:08 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Proving a negative. Are you saying that one penny WAS? If so, show your work because a lot of people would love to hear it.


I'm not the one assuming that there isn't. Get it?

As I said though, there is one way to ensure that the claim being made about no federal funds going towards abortion is true. And it's the one the GOP proposed.


Why do you oppose this if you already assume it must be true? It's not like portions of the original planned parenthood organization haven't spun off over time and for various legal reasons as well (primarily their advocacy and lobbying wings). They could spin off their non-abortion business (or vice versa depending on where they want the name to stay). Why not do this and be 100% sure that no federal dollars are going towards abortion?
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#558 Apr 13 2011 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
Do they do other things? Sure. They do the occasional breast exam and whatnot, but I don't think anyone is under the misconception that abortion isn't the primary business that planned parenthood engages in.
Cite, please.
For what? Is there anyone who hears the name "Planned Parenthood" and doesn't immediately associate it with abortion?

Vague statements about public perception is almost as good as real factual, sourced information. Good job!
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#559 Apr 13 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Well, technically people would yawn about 99% of that stuff since that's not how 'funding abortion' is classified any more than 'funding religion' is classified for federal grants to faith-based charities.


Interesting that you brought that up. Faith based charities have to be legally and financially divorced from their church organizations completely right now in order to qualify for funding under federal law, don't they? So the money that you drop into the basket each Sunday does not go into the same bucket that the money the federal government hands out to the "St John's soup kitchen" goes into.


Isn't the GOP really just asking for the same rules to apply?


Edited, Apr 13th 2011 8:15pm by gbaji
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#560 Apr 13 2011 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Proving a negative. Are you saying that one penny WAS? If so, show your work because a lot of people would love to hear it.
I'm not the one assuming that there isn't. Get it?

"Assuming there isn't" is meaningless, especially since "isn't" isn't a violation of the law. If you want a change to the law, then support it by offering evidence that the current law doesn't work. In other words, prove to us that funds are actually being used in violation of the law.
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Why do you oppose this if you already assume it must be true?

Why do I have to defend not being convinced by logical fallacies that rely on me proving a negative rather than you making an actual case?
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#561 Apr 13 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Proving a negative. Are you saying that one penny WAS? If so, show your work because a lot of people would love to hear it.
I'm not the one assuming that there isn't. Get it?

"Assuming there isn't" is meaningless, especially since "isn't" isn't a violation of the law.


Irrelevant. The claim was that 0% of federal funding went towards abortion. But the only way to know that is if the money from federal funding is kept completely separate from the money used for abortion. Which is not true.

It's just like the kid who borrows $100 from his dad to buy school books and the dad finds $100 of pot in his room the following day. He's angry because his money was spent to buy pot, but his son insists that he spent his own $100 on the pot and not the $100 he got for school books.

That's a weak argument, but that's the only one you got I guess!
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#562 Apr 13 2011 at 9:26 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Samira wrote:
Quote:
Do they do other things? Sure. They do the occasional breast exam and whatnot, but I don't think anyone is under the misconception that abortion isn't the primary business that planned parenthood engages in.
Cite, please.
For what? Is there anyone who hears the name "Planned Parenthood" and doesn't immediately associate it with abortion?
Hahaha, that's quite the citation.
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#563 Apr 13 2011 at 9:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Faith based charities have to be legally and financially divorced from their church organizations completely right now in order to qualify for funding under federal law, don't they?

No.
ACTMag.com wrote:
What can be funded with federal dollars is "education" and "human services," and both are provided in pregnancy centers. What cannot be funded is proselytization or the promotion of religion, evangelization, and religious services. Your organization can continue to promote religion, evangelize, and even hold religious services if you receive federal funds, but you cannot do these things with tax dollars. Federally funded services must be provided separately in time and/or place from your religious services.

It then goes on to say that you can hold a federally funded prenatal class in a training room while using the kitchen of the same building for a Bible study on a different day (or presumably even on the same day since it's "time and/or place"). There is no concern about the same building being used for both purposes or the same organization holding both events. But, according to you, Planned Parenthood simply must be held accountable if we think they use a single penny in a building that also has abortion services.

Edited, Apr 14th 2011 7:38am by Jophiel
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#564 Apr 13 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
That's a weak argument, but that's the only one you got I guess!

Expecting you to show a violation of the law before supporting a change to the law is weak? Well, if you say so.
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#565 Apr 13 2011 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Things also associated with abortion:
  • Wire Clothes Hangers
  • Stairs
  • Falcon Punches
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#566 Apr 13 2011 at 9:34 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Things also associated with abortion:
  • Wire Clothes Hangers
  • Stairs
  • Falcon Punches

There's also Fetus Flusher, and Baby-B-Gon.
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#567 Apr 13 2011 at 9:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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And pennyroyal tea. Let's all go after herbal suppliers.

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#568 Apr 13 2011 at 9:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll note that the linked article also says:
Quote:
For example, if you have a federally funded abstinence education program (as approximately fifty centers do), [...] it has a separate budget and special reporting responsibilities to the federal government

Planned Parenthood already keeps separate records. You can see an example in this audit conducted by the state of Texas.

http://www.dshs.state.tx.us/WorkArea/linkit.aspx?LinkIdentifier=id&ItemID=8589943023

(board code doesn't like that format of URL)

Edited, Apr 13th 2011 10:56pm by Jophiel
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#569 Apr 13 2011 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Proving a negative. Are you saying that one penny WAS? If so, show your work because a lot of people would love to hear it.
I'm not the one assuming that there isn't. Get it?

"Assuming there isn't" is meaningless, especially since "isn't" isn't a violation of the law.


Irrelevant. The claim was that 0% of federal funding went towards abortion. But the only way to know that is if the money from federal funding is kept completely separate from the money used for abortion.
lol

No, the way to prove that is to find a penny that goes to abortion. Logic 101, it's called a "counterexample".

So for the claim "absolutely no federal funding goes to abortions", the counterexample would be to find any value of federal funding at all that goes towards abortions. Get to it.



Edited, Apr 13th 2011 11:04pm by bsphil
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I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#570 Apr 14 2011 at 6:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji is basically saying that, if the University of Florida (where I work) wants to host a convention (like our yearly convocation for the graduating class), they need to make a separate organization entirely to buy food. Why? Because state and federal funding cannot be used to purchase food here. Even that wouldn't work though, because the same people who work at UF would need to also work for this new organization. They would receive two paychecks, and a separate job form would need to be filled out for the new organization. And even though state funding could be used to rent the building or pay the salaries of the workers, this separate organization cannot receive it. Because they're buying food, and you can't really prove that it's not the federal funds being used, right?

Luckily, the real world does not work like this, because it's fucking idiotic. Instead, organizations receiving federal funds are required to show separate accounts. Funds from the government can be applied only to specific categories (like overhead or building rental). One of the categories that cannot be covered is anything directly related to the abortion process. Like the University of Florida, PP follows these rules because if they didn't they would not only lose their funding but could also would be sued for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars.

The point being, they can prove that government funds aren't being used for abortion procedures. I don't even know why gbaji tried this argument. What he should be saying is something like "well, the same doctors who give out condoms perform abortions and they get paid through federal funding!" Thing is, that's perfectly legal (same as us getting paid by government funding despite me using another fund to buy food for events).

The proper way to combat this, as I said before (and gbaji ignored or missed), is to pass legislation against it. The Hyde Amendment already dictates that this process is to be used. A budget, or a CR, is not a place to change policy. I mean, unless you like attaching unpopular measures to must-pass legislation.

Edited, Apr 14th 2011 8:37am by LockeColeMA
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#571 Apr 14 2011 at 6:53 AM Rating: Good
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I think Viagra is offensive. If god wants you to have an erection, he'll give you one. I wonder how many of our law-makers are getting Viagra through their taxpayer-funded health insurance??








Edited, Apr 14th 2011 3:00pm by Elinda
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#572 Apr 14 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Could you just do me a favor and explain what the birth certificate lie is? I haven't heard about this.


Were you perhaps in orbit two years ago? How could you not know about that?

Short version: some right-leaners don't think that the candidates' vetting process is sufficient and insist that Obama needs to put his birth certificate on public display to prove that he wasn't actually born in Kenya.


I knew about that, I was asking what Obama's lie was. He said he lied about the certificate. There is no way in **** the dems would run a candidate that wasn't born in America, that would be even more idiotic than believing they would.
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#573 Apr 14 2011 at 7:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
I think Viagra is offensive. If god wants you to have an erection, he'll give you one. I wonder how many of our law-makers are getting Viagra through their taxpayer-funded health insurance??








Edited, Apr 14th 2011 3:00pm by Elinda


So what god is **** now? Or is he just a sexual deviant.
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#574 Apr 14 2011 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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So what god is **** now? Or is he just a sexual deviant.


Not gay, but supportive...who the **** do you think created rainbows?
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#575 Apr 14 2011 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Ailitardif, Star Breaker wrote:
Quote:
So what god is **** now? Or is he just a sexual deviant.


Not gay, but supportive...who the **** do you think created rainbows?


I always assumed they were a naturally occurring phenomenon caused by sunlight shattering into an array of colors through water. You can also create them artificially, kind of like erections.
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#576varusword75, Posted: Apr 14 2011 at 7:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) atard,
#577 Apr 14 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
I'm all for eliminating funding for murdering life
Why do you hate Soldiers, and why do you want to keep serial killers alive?
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#578 Apr 14 2011 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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Vanus,

So you actually believe that Obama was not born in Hawaii and I'm the half-wit?

Hey pot, this is the kettle, you're black.

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#579 Apr 14 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
I'm all for eliminating funding for murdering life
Why do you hate Soldiers, and why do you want to keep serial killers alive?


My favorite is when people are pro-life and pro-death penalty. If they were robots their heads would explode...luckily they are immune to logic.
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#580 Apr 14 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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You can't be pro-life and anti-zombie. Jus' saying.
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#581 Apr 14 2011 at 8:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
Luckily, the real world does not work like this, because it's @#%^ing idiotic.


The real world does work like this and it is idiotic. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm really not sure what you were trying to say here. If you have two separate bank accounts, you can easily track which one you use to pay for things. gbaji (and apparently now you) seem to say you can't. A "fund" doesn't necessarily have to be a separate bank account, but you track the money just like it is. If your fund runs out of money you can't take money from another fund and say it's the same thing.

It seems like you're saying federal tax dollars have some magical pixie dust on them that gets tainted if the exact same dollar isn't used. You must be **** when you deposit a dollar bill with a mustache on Washington's face into your account, and don't get the same exact dollar back when you withdraw some cash Smiley: frown

Edited, Apr 14th 2011 10:03am by LockeColeMA
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#582varusword75, Posted: Apr 14 2011 at 8:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Atard,
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I'm all for eliminating federal funding for religious organizations just the same as I'm all for eliminating funding for murdering life. Of course i'm also for ending the practice of murdering life but that's another thread.


You still claim that abortion is murder, can you please provide me with proven facts supporting that claim. I know this is just you church bred opinion and that you won't actually find any undeniably proven facts that conception = life. While I agree in limits on abortion (typically after 21 weeks when the fetus is matured to the point that it can survive outside of the womb, prior to the 21 week period it can not do so.) It should stand as a choice before hand since the fetus/cellular ooze is not capable of surviving outside of the host.

So dazzle me with factual information....and no I don't want to see joe blow from the church saying its bad cuz god said so.
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#584 Apr 14 2011 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
I'm all for eliminating federal funding for religious organizations

That's fine and good for you. The point was that Gbaji's bizarre ideas of what counts as funding abortion (or funding religion, I guess) aren't the governmental reality. For instance, you need to keep separate pay records but you can have employees who work both sides of the building. Likewise, you can pay the rent on a building that provides abortions but at a reduced percentage. This isn't some special leniency given to Planned Parenthood, it's how all similar grants work.
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#585 Apr 14 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:

Quote:
So you actually believe that Obama was not born in Hawaii and I'm the half-wit?


No. Why should I? Because he says so? I tend to rely on evidence rather than promises when dealing with politicians regardless of party line.


Lawl irony when there's zero evidence he was born in Kenya, and several very good pieces that he was born in Hawaii Smiley: rolleyes
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#586 Apr 14 2011 at 8:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
I'm all for eliminating federal funding for religious organizations

That's fine and good for you. The point was that Gbaji's bizarre ideas of what counts as funding abortion (or funding religion, I guess) aren't the governmental reality. For instance, you need to keep separate pay records but you can have employees who work both sides of the building. Likewise, you can pay the rent on a building that provides abortions but at a reduced percentage. This isn't some special leniency given to Planned Parenthood, it's how all similar grants work.


This. Joph said it better in one paragraph than I did in several posts, but that was my entire point right there Smiley: glare
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#587varusword75, Posted: Apr 14 2011 at 8:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
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varusword75 wrote:


Joph,

I'm all for eliminating funding for murdering life.


This is a value statement and useless if you're trying to determine what medical procedures will be covered by various funding sources and what won't.
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#589 Apr 14 2011 at 8:18 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
Atard,

What about people that are pro life and anti death penalty?

How does that work for ya?


Quote:
So you actually believe that Obama was not born in Hawaii and I'm the half-wit?


No. Why should I? Because he says so? I tend to rely on evidence rather than promises when dealing with politicians regardless of party line.


Not that I can personally provide it, but what evidence would satisfy you? Since the Hawaiian govt. Has confirmed his birth and provided a birth document, I am assuming that only a time-machine so you could actually witness it would do?
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#590varusword75, Posted: Apr 14 2011 at 8:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,
Quote:
zero evidence he was born in Kenya
Well besides his aunt saying she saw him born there of course.
Giggle.
varusword75 wrote:
There's also this;
Quote:
The New York Times has contended that Hawaii has "confirmed" that the online document is authentic, however no state official has publicly verified it is Obama's Certification of Live Birth. They have said they have Obama's records, but they haven't detailed what information they include.
So by official ... would a statement by ... say ... the Director of Hawaii Health Department suffice?
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#592 Apr 14 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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ITT: gbaji thinks it's "guilty until proven innocent."
#593 Apr 14 2011 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:
The liberal democrats have ignored this issue for 5yrs. No matter how much they want it to go away it simply isn't.


Just like Obama's presidency, eh?

Loser.
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#594 Apr 14 2011 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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varusword75 wrote:


The liberal democrats have ignored this issue for 5yrs. No matter how much they want it to go away it simply isn't.

It lives on in the hearts, souls and forum posts of our countries dearest dimwits.
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
zero evidence he was born in Kenya


Well besides his aunt saying she saw him born there of course.

Gosh, you're worse than Senator Kyl Smiley: laugh Do you mean his step-grandmother?
Quote:
What Liddy was referring to is actually an affidavit filed by a street preacher named Ron McRae, who conducted an interview with Sarah Obama, the second wife of President Obama's grandfather, through a translator. (Sarah Obama is not the president's biological grandmother, but he calls her "Granny Sarah.")

In that interview, Sarah Obama does in fact say at one point that she was there for her grandson's birth. But that was a mistake, a confusion in translation. As soon as a jubilant McRae began to press her for further details about her grandson being born in Kenya, the family realized the mistake and corrected him. And corrected him. And corrected him. (The audio is available for download here.)

Here's the conversation:

MCRAE: Could I ask her about his actual birthplace? I would like to see his birthplace when I come to Kenya in December. Was she present when he was born in Kenya?

OGOMBE: Yes. She says, yes, she was, she was present when Obama was born.

MCRAE: When I come in December. I would like to come by the place, the hospital, where he was born. Could you tell me where he was born? Was he born in Mombasa?

OGOMBE: No, Obama was not born in Mombasa. He was born in America.

MCRAE: Whereabouts was he born? I thought he was born in Kenya.

OGOMBE: No, he was born in America, not in Mombasa.

MCRAE: Do you know where he was born? I thought he was born in Kenya. I was going to go by and see where he was born.

OGOMBE: Hawaii. Hawaii. Sir, she says he was born in Hawaii. In the state of Hawaii, where his father was also learning, there. The state of Hawaii.


Nice evidence - and even more hilarious that you don't even know what it actually was, or who said it Smiley: nod
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#596 Apr 14 2011 at 8:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Locked,

Quote:
. If you have two separate bank accounts, you can easily track which one you use to pay for things. gbaji (and apparently now you) seem to say you can't


I'm not saying they can't; i'm saying they won't. I've seen how huge bureaucracies (UT and Knox co public schools) function and funds get mixed and matched all the time. It's just a fact. That you think any sizable organization operating at the same place and receiving funds from the federal govn isn't going to have the money co-mingling is absurd, even for you.


Wow, you worked in their accounting departments, just like me? Man, we're totally on par in this conversation Smiley: laugh
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#597 Apr 14 2011 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Locke,

Wth? You beat me to it. Also, who have to stop the interview earlier, otherwise it ruins vanus' argument.

@ vanus,

Your logic is bad and you should feel bad.
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#598 Apr 14 2011 at 8:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Varus wrote:
I've seen how huge bureaucracies (UT and Knox co public schools) function and funds get mixed and matched all the time. It's just a fact

If only there was some way to audit them from time to time and make sure they're following the rules... you know, kind of like I gave a link to.
Belkira wrote:
ITT: gbaji thinks it's "guilty until proven innocent."

Gbaji might be Niobia's mysterious internet laywer.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#599 Apr 14 2011 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
ITT: Gbaji doesn't understand accounting.
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#600 Apr 14 2011 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
ITT: Gbaji doesn't understand accounting.

Gbaji's not going to listen to any so-called accounting "experts" when it's just obvious that he's right. LifeNews told him so.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#601varusword75, Posted: Apr 14 2011 at 9:26 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Locked,
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