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teaching our children to..guess....Follow

#1 May 04 2006 at 7:50 PM Rating: Default
fourth grade math under "no child left behind".

ok, first the concept, substituting an easy number to multiply with to make doing it easier in your head.

for example, 17 x 38. substitute 20 for 17, and 40 for 38 so you have 20 x 40. simple. 800. now, finding the "reasonable" answer. would a "reasonable" answer be 783? sure, you added numbers to your multiplier thus the answer to the problem would "reasonably" be less than 800.

my daughter had a timed math test in school today. she brought it home. an "F".

why? because she finnished late and didnt answer them all? nope, finnished before most of the other kids.

because she got all the answers wrong? nope, 25 math problems and every one was absolutly correct.

she failed because the teacher wasnt trying to teach them to solve the math problem, she failed because the teacher wanted the "reasonable" answer.

tell me, wouldnt the CORRECT answer be a "reasonable" answer to you?

the purpose? to teach kids how to find fast, REASONABLE answers on a standardized multiple guess test to get a good score on the FCAT.

i celebrated her test at home. not a single flaw.

the Bush addministraition working.....HARD....to make a generation of IDIOTS he can relate to.
#2 May 04 2006 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Make an appointment with both the teacher and the principal. Bring the test. Have the teacher explain to the principal why your daughter got an F for a test she clearly aced. If you dont get the results you want, head to the superintendant. If that fails, go to the media. Just not Fox
#3 May 04 2006 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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In a world where schools fail at teaching real math skills, is it really so suprising they resort to teaching them how to make guesstimates?
#4 May 04 2006 at 8:09 PM Rating: Default
Make an appointment with both the teacher and the principal. Bring the test. Have the teacher explain to the principal why your daughter got an F for a test she clearly aced.
-------------------------------------------------

already done. unfortunatly, the material was approved and supplied by the state of florida school board.

yep, spacifically designed by a group of florida educators to enhance math skills amoung grade school children. seems florida was lacking in the math department. sooo, instead of helping the ones not doing well, we are punnishing the ones who ARE doing well. dumbing down basic math for the masses to show an across the bord increase in state math scores.

i could take it to the Bush(jeb) appoointed director of education in this state if i want. hell, he approved it.

the very political principle did politly explain to me how the people who developed this material have much more experience in teaching than i do.....basically, your an idiot and you dont know what your talking about and we do.....by by, have a nice day, i will think on what you said....

seriously thinking of either pulling my kid out of math class at school and getting a private tutor, or going private school all together.

im luck, i can afford to fix my problem. 100 percent correct. that sure sounds lie a bit more than "reasonable" to me. im so proud of her. now, how to encourage her finding the correct answer....without totaly underminning her teachers authority and her respect for the rest of her teachers.

lot more at stake here than a **** poor teaching agenda.
#5 May 04 2006 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Pandering to the lowest common denominator...the real American way.
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#7 May 04 2006 at 8:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
my daughter had a timed math test in school today. she brought it home. an "F".

why? because she finnished late and didnt answer them all? nope, finnished before most of the other kids.

because she got all the answers wrong? nope, 25 math problems and every one was absolutly correct.

she failed because the teacher wasnt trying to teach them to solve the math problem, she failed because the teacher wanted the "reasonable" answer.


Wow. That is ridiculous! I'm in school to become a teacher right now, and that sounds so crazy. I'm sorry your daughter failed in their eyes, but it sounds like she's a bright girl! \^_^/

Quote:
In a world where schools fail at teaching real math skills, is it really so suprising they resort to teaching them how to make guesstimates?


Not surprising, but disappointing nonetheless. During my grade school-high school career, I always had trouble with math. It wasn't until I got to college and had to take developemental classes that I really learned any of it! When I become a teacher, I want to make sure that doesn't happen to anyone else.
#8 May 04 2006 at 8:48 PM Rating: Good
The concept is sound (though saying that the correct answer is anything but the actual value is not). I don't think that it's a technique that should be taught to a class but for those that are less analytical it helps with mathimatics immensely.

12 * 19 might be difficult for some students but 12 * 20 is much easier. This is effectively twenty 12's and since we are attempting to find nineteen 12's the correct answer would be:

12 * 20 - 12
(12 * 10)(2)-12
120 * 2 - 12
240 - 12
228

In grade school it is a great skill to use when trying to tutor students having a difficult time with the class and even as an adult it is very effective when using very large numbers which are normally not as readily solved without pen and paper.

, but like Angsty said we did already have this convorsation when one of y'alls little people had a similar problem.
#9 May 04 2006 at 8:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Is "reasonable answer" sort of like estimation? I only ask because I remember learning to estimate when I was young. We weren't supposed to give the "correct" on the tits answer either. I remeber thinking it was the stupidest thing in the world. I only bring this up because, even though I hate Bush, I think stuff like this has happened previous to him.

#10 May 04 2006 at 8:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Pandering to the lowest common denominator...the real American way.

Because self-esteem is more important than learnin' the maths....
#11 May 04 2006 at 8:53 PM Rating: Default
I am 13 right now and a couple of years back we had to do the same thing, and in my perticular case the teacher just basicly wanted us to guess and we got it right...get the exact answer and she counted it wrong.


Or it could be becuase I live in Texas.
#12 May 04 2006 at 9:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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shadowrelm wrote:
the Bush addministraition working.....HARD....to make a generation of IDIOTS he can relate to.
I have as many issues with NCLB and Bush as the next guy (hell, probably more) but your gripe here is with either the school, the district or the state. The district set the curriculum, the teacher (probably) made up the test and the state maybe had something to do with the district curriculum.

Unless the state's own standardized testing grades students wrong for getting the correct answer instead of the "reasonable" answer, there's no reason for the teacher to penalize for it. But that has nothing much to personally do with Bush.
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#13 May 04 2006 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the real issue, actually, is that they're trying to teach compliance and following instructions. If the curriculum states how the children are supposed to perform their work, that's how they should do it. Creative (even proper) thinking isn't encouraged until they know what they're supposed to do, first. That's what standardized means - making sure they're all thinking along the same lines. It's learning how to learn.

At least, that's what I was always told when I had trouble in school - I was too focused on learning interesting facts and theories, not how to comply to standards. That I was too smart for my own good.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#14 May 04 2006 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Regardless, if the intent is to teach children to do "well enough" for the standardized test (and I'm sure that was it), there's no practical reason to penalize someone for getting the correct answer. But that's a problem to be had with either the teacher, the school or the district.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#15 May 04 2006 at 9:51 PM Rating: Good
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Um... What was the stated objective for the test though?

Clearly, your daughter was not asked to give the correct answer for the question. She was asked to provide the correct estimate for the answer. If the curriculum she's studying says to round numbers to their nearest value (presumably 5s and 10s), and then multiply, and the test was specifically testing her ability to do that, then by not following the instructions, she failed the test.


I'm not going to get into whether or not we *should* be teaching kids how to quickly estimate math results, but the point is that this test was (presumably) specifically testing her ability to do that. If you're given instructions on the test that say to round every value in the equation to the nearest 5 or 10, and then multiply and write down the result, and you don't do that, then you deserve to fail the test. For failing to follow directions if nothing else.


It's actually kind of amusing because this is actually a concept you learn in higher math classes, and definately in science classes. You follow formulas to arrive at the correct result for the formula. It's not necessarily the correct mathmatical result, but one of the things you have to unlearn in higher math (especially in things like algorithms) is that not all values are arrived at via straight math. They are derived by following the formula. And if the formula says to round numbers at a particular stage in the equation, that's what you do because otherwise you aren't following the formula correctly.


This kinda reminds me of a test where the instructor writes out a super hard test, but at the top it says to simply write your name and hand it in. Those who read the instructions and follow it get an A. Those who don't fail. Assuming the test instructions were clear, your daughter didn't fail because of a lack of mathmatical knowledge but because she didn't follow the instructions on the test. In life, you have to know what you're doing and you figure that out by following instructions (or making them youself). Doing something other then what you were supposed to do, even if you did it incredibly well, does not mean you succeeded...
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#16 May 04 2006 at 10:00 PM Rating: Decent
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"no child left behind"


No child gets left behind affected Jersey also. They fired basically all the cool intresting teachers that made learning fun (and didnt have tenured) got fired. Then they proceeded to hire non-qualified teachers who didnt where deoderant or wore the same shirt everyday. And the PMS teachers. This happened to the middle school in my town and they have new teachers every 2-3 years and its starting to happen to the high school.

EDIT:Spelt teachers wrong

Edited, Thu May 4 23:09:42 2006 by Garess
#17 May 04 2006 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, we've had this discussion once before.

I'm with Gbaji on this one. If it turns out that the test specifically asked for rounding or estimation, and the student did not follow the directions, then she earned an F.

I also understand the education method that I'm assuming they were trying to teach. Situations will arise in later education where having good estimation skills will allow a student to quickly guage whether their answers are reasonable. Additionally, certain processes in calculus are specifically based upon estimation. It's an important skill to have.

Education isn't always about teaching a formulaic "here's the question - this is the answer" approach. Sometimes it's about teaching a mental process, and I'm guessing that's what the teacher was going for.

gbaji wrote:
This kinda reminds me of a test where the instructor writes out a super hard test, but at the top it says to simply write your name and hand it in. Those who read the instructions and follow it get an A. Those who don't fail


My high school physics teacher did that to us as our first quiz of the year. I failed it :(

Edited, Thu May 4 23:12:29 2006 by Eske
#19 May 04 2006 at 10:16 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
There comes a time when one may have to make snap decisions, and having to work it all out may take too long, or simply be impractical.

Don't follow directions, get the F you deserve.


I would understand a guesstimating test for 9th grade+ maybe 8th grade. But for a 4th grader to take a test such that makes you have to think that way is somewhat "whack". I aslo had a test like that in 4th grade but it didnt count. Only two kids passed.
#21 May 04 2006 at 11:46 PM Rating: Good
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shadowrelm wrote:
barely coherent rant


Shadowrelm, this is the second time you have posted a rant like this and it's the second time I've found myself thinking that the idea that YOU, who cannot even capitalize properly, much less spell basic elementary-level words like "administration" or "finished" properly, should make even a pretense at caring about the state of the education system, is a joke.

Estimating, and even guesstimating, has a very distinct real world value. There is a reason it's taught in schools. For example, you go to the grocery store. You have $100 to spend on groceries. Everthing in the grocery store is priced $xx.99 or $xx.97 or $xx.95. If you buy 5 items at $3.97 each, is it not more REASONABLE to estimate that you are going to be spending $20 on those items, than to take the time to come up with $19.85 exactly?

The reason your daughter failed her test is because she didn't follow directions. The teacher gave directions telling her to solve the problems using a particular method that has a valid, real-world application, and therefore is important to know. Rather than doing it the way the teacher instructed her to do it, she did it another way. Therefore, she did not follow directions. Therefore, she got the answer wrong. It's no different than failing an algebra test because the teacher tells you to show your work and instead you just write down the answer. Even if the answer is correct, IF YOU DON'T FOLLOW INSTRUCTIONS, YOU DON'T PASS THE TEST. Because part of the testing process is not just judging whether or not you have the ability to come up with the right answer, but whether or not you have the ability TO PERFORM THE PROCESS NECESSARY TO COME UP WITH THE RIGHT ANSWER. It's not always about the answer. Sometimes, it's about learning to THINK a certain way in certain situations. That is a valuable real-world lesson that our children NEED to learn.

Instead of teaching your daughter to be a whiner when something doesn't go her way, and instead of teaching her disrespect for the judgement and authority of her teachers, teach her the value of doing things the way she's told to do them.

And STFU, estimating skills were taught in our school systems long before Bush took office and the FCATs came into common use.

#22 May 05 2006 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
Meh, it has it's uses - granted.

I remeber this when I was back in grade school and iirc they normally do want you to round to the nearest 5. None the less, given that your daughter did it in the aloted time given to guesstimate, didn't cheat (of course not), and didn't use a calculator I say more power to her! Bright girl - get 'er tested for gifted status!

When I lived in Florida it was something like one of the top 3 or 5 states for education and I believe that it still holds this honor so if you believe that shes above the current course material nows the time to do something about it. Grade school classes can go a long way to preparing your child for the future. I still havn't forgotten the amazing 5th grade teacher I had - he made middle school classes seem trivial because he related the basic concepts so well that he was able to move on to harder course work.

The gifted program in Florida can be very effective and leads into honors and AP courses in middle and high school as well. All in all it is a great opportunity which you should grasp now before she accepts the mold that public school basic curriculum will place on her. Not only that, if she takes Honor and AP courses in the future you both will find that her horizons will be lined with golden doors waiting and open for her. A single AP test with a score of 4 or over (out of 9) can result in 6 free credit hours in college or university that will not have to be taken and counted as passed. Further, by preparing now for these classes she will have a much easier time maintaining her GPA and very well could graduate in the top of her classes leading to many, many chances for a nearly free-ride (if not just that) scholarship and a very proud parent.

I know that grade 4 seems very young to be thinking about college but if theres one thing I've learned it's that it is never to early to consider the future of your [child's] education. One thing a parent doesn't enjoy hearing is that their cute small child will grow into a teenager and then an adult but the fact is that it happens much faster then you could have ever imagined. From the moment they were born a race to stay one step ahead began.

Guesstimating is a great skill but she seems like a very smart young girl and I wouldn't be suprised if the concepts have already permeated her brain so that she's already using the teachnique to find not only a guess but the actual answer as well without even realizing it. As it stands anyway, once she progresses (many years from now) with higher level math the only time guesstimating is really a valid excuse even when you need to find something quickly (under a minute) is guessing a square-root.

A simple example being sqrt6 where we know it's between 2 (sqrt4) and 3 (sqrt9). An extra second or two reveals it's around 2.45ish.

Until then, the majority of classes will want the correct answer anyway.

Ask the school guidance counselor / academic advisor to set up an ESE-Gifted test. You won't regret it.

Goodluck
#23 May 05 2006 at 12:27 AM Rating: Good
Shadowrelm, I made an avatard in honour of this thread. Enjoy.
#24 May 05 2006 at 12:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:

Shadowrelm, this is the second time you have posted a rant like this


You new around here, or did you mean the second time within the past few days?
#25 May 05 2006 at 12:42 AM Rating: Good
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Chtulhu wrote:
Ambrya wrote:

Shadowrelm, this is the second time you have posted a rant like this


You new around here, or did you mean the second time within the past few days?


I remember him posting on this exact subject a few weeks ago. I know he has posted other rants, but on this particular subject, it's been a while.

#26 May 05 2006 at 12:44 AM Rating: Good
He rants about everything, and it always invariably leads back to the Bush administration.
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