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As per MSN, "Duke case reopens wounds for black women&qFollow

#52 Apr 18 2006 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
The reason for that is, FleaJo, is that under normal civilized behavior unwanted and forced sexual intercourse with a woman is rape. However, those circumstances do not apply to this particular thread or situation. ...


Why not? Everyone is protected under the law. If a drug deal goes bad and the dealer gets shot and dies on the way to the hospital, then the police will handle the situation as a murder. It doesn't matter if something illegal was taking place to cause the murder. It's still a murder.


#53 Apr 18 2006 at 1:45 PM Rating: Good
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And lest anybody think I am an unthinking or calloused cad, these are not some saintly boys who were spending their free time in the library preparing for the upcoming exams, no. Were they to apprehend a woman off the street and force her into their bachelor pad and have sex with her against her will, they should hang. Literally.

But what you are in essence doing is feeling terrible for the drug dealer who gets robbed of his goods while pushing his dope on the street corner. And despite all evidence to the contrary, maybe that young man out there surreptitiously shaking hands with total strangers through open car windows really isn't dealing drugs. Maybe he's just a very friendly fellow. Maybe. In some alternate universe perhaps.

Totem
#54 Apr 18 2006 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good
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Sure it is, Here'sJonny. But like using a double negative, raping a prostitute cancels the other out. C'mon, you can't tell me you truly believe that a hooker is traumatized by the act of sex?

Each of you appalled at this alleged crime are viweing it through your own eyes and experiences. Unless you are a prostitiute, your sexual experiences, good or bad, do not match what she does for a living. Casual, impersonal, rough, viscious, multiple partner sex is her stock in trade. Soft, intimate, loving moments are not what she plies unless that is what the customer is paying for.

The funny thing is, she is actually ******** entire community-- nay, the nation! -- and each of you are being raped, yet you don't recognise it. She has manipulated you into believing something which she is not: A good person.

Totem
#55 Apr 18 2006 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
Ahh, but Totes, you are showing that you have clearly never entered negotiations with a practitioner of the oldest profession. She may agree to ****-oral-watersports-fecalplay and any other number of obscene acts, but if you slip something in there that wasn't agreed on in advance, say a vegetable or bottle, you're not only breaching a contract but performing sex acts on an unwilling participant.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 14:59:54 2006 by Barkingturtle
#56 Apr 18 2006 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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No, kalaria, I am saying no man has the right to rape if a "normal" woman looks or dresses like she's asking for it. Normal as in what I would hope you are or as, say, FleaJo, DSD, Katie, etc. However, if you take up the profession of exposing your body, go into a private residence without security dressed to sexually excite, and then proceed to behave in a way that heightens those emotions, you surely must have a reasonable expectation to have sex that night. To not do so is foolish. Even moreso considering she is implicitly a hooker. It is what she does for a living.

What is at issue here was her price.

Decrying that traveling through a dark alley in a bad part of town unmolested is your right does not change the fact that by doing so alone and with no means of protecting yourself is, yes, asking for it. Just as much as saying stepping off the crosswalk with a truck bearing down on you at speed is your right, even though it is readily apparent to everybody else that doing so is a life-threatening action.

If it was rape, why is she surprised that it happened? And if she is not surprised, then why was she there in the first place? The simple answer is is because she was there for the sex.

Totem
#57 Apr 18 2006 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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I can see your point, Barking, but if sex is to be the end result, mere "regular" sexual intercourse can reasonably be expected, particularly in light of the ****-oral-watersports-fecalplay that was proffered. After all, the threshold of "normal" sexual activity was long since passed if that occured.

Totem
#58 Apr 18 2006 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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Your logic relies on a lot of 'implicit' presumptions which do not (or at least, should not) stand up in a court of law in any civilized country. Fenderputy brought up a good analogy about the murder of a drug-dealer. That's a pretty good point of reference, I'd say.

A prostitute is not "paid for people to rape her". With that debunked, your argument doesn't make sense.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 15:24:21 2006 by Eske
#59 Apr 18 2006 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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But she was not murdered. She, in essence, was robbed of her drugs, using the drug dealer analogy. No harm, no foul.

Totem
#60 Apr 18 2006 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Show me a court in this land that would take to trial, much less convict someone (other than the cops) of stealing drugs from a drug dealer.

Totem
#61 Apr 18 2006 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
But she was not murdered. She, in essence, was robbed of her drugs, using the drug dealer analogy. No harm, no foul.

Totem


So it's your opinion that a prostitute cannot be raped?
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#62 Apr 18 2006 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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TILT
Drugs are illegal in of themselves. Sexual intercourse is not.

You can argue that prostitution is akin to drug dealing but the comparison falls apart when you try to find something to compare the illegal drugs to.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#63 Apr 18 2006 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
But she was not murdered. She, in essence, was robbed of her drugs, using the drug dealer analogy. No harm, no foul.

Totem


I figured you'd say that. It'd be a fair counter if she accepted money for being raped after the fact. Until that occurs, it is a forced sexual encounter. Regardless of the pointless (and unfortunately typical) speculation that some people are doing about her reasons for going to the party, until she undergoes that physical act of saying 'I will have sex with you if you pay me X amount of cash', its not fair game. Now whether or not that occured is up to the circumstances of the trial, I guess.

I think what I'm trying to say is that it's a case by case thing. People can prostitute themselves, but each act of doing so is a one-and-done deal. It doesn't justify a future rape, nor as I said, does it give free reign for rape based upon presumption.

EDITed to add: Yeah Samira and Joph hit my points much more succinctly.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 15:29:57 2006 by Eske
#64 Apr 18 2006 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Paid sexual intercourse is illegal.

Totem
#65 Apr 18 2006 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Paid sexual intercourse is illegal.

Totem


But that only stands to reason if she was raped, and then paid them after the fact for it. You're using your hindsight to reverse the order of the events.
#66 Apr 18 2006 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Except in Nevada.

Totem
#67 Apr 18 2006 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Paid sexual intercourse IS prostitution. A brick of cocaine is not a drug deal.

Prostitution = Drug deal
Prostitution also = the drugs themselves?

Smiley: dubious
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#68 Apr 18 2006 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
However, if you take up the profession of exposing your body, go into a private residence without security dressed to sexually excite, and then proceed to behave in a way that heightens those emotions, you surely must have a reasonable expectation to have sex that night. To not do so is foolish. Even moreso considering she is implicitly a hooker. It is what she does for a living.


Rape is forcing someone to have sex you, against their will. Like I said before, based on the info and like you and some other people said, it looks like she was there for more than dancing. She didn't have any protection with her to handle a situation if it got out of hand. Im my opinion I think she was there maybe looking to make a few extra bucks and stuff got out of hand, so she played the race card.

If that is the case her bad decision had it consequence, but still doesn't excuse the act of rape, if it happened. To call all strippers hookers is generalizing, yeah I would say a lot of them get caught up in that, but it shouldn't define all of them.



Edited, Tue Apr 18 15:37:10 2006 by kalaria
#69 Apr 18 2006 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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No, Eske, I am drawing logical conclusions from what little we know about the case.
  • She was paid $400 in twenty dollar bills. Whether that was money for dancing or for sex is up for debate.

  • She is a stripper. Whether she is also a prostitute is up for debate.

  • She went back to the house twice during her visit. Why she did so is up for debate.
  • She claims there was forced non-consentual sex, but there is no DNA evidence. That is not up for debate.

  • Based on this alone, is that worthy of a grand jury? Apparently so, considering that they came back with a finding that there was sufficient evidence to go to trial. My feeling is that the men should be convicted of boorish behavior and the woman of terminally bad judgement, but that's just me.

    Totem


    Edited, Tue Apr 18 15:44:53 2006 by Totem
    #70 Apr 18 2006 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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    A brick of cocaine here in the US is a drug deal. There is no possible exculpatory reason to own a brick of cocaine.

    Totem
    #71 Apr 18 2006 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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    Renting the coochie by the minute = the drugs themselves

    Totem
    #72 Apr 18 2006 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    She claims there was forced non-consentual sex, but there is no DNA evidence. That is not up for debate.


    Thats why I believe she played the race card. She was there under questionable circumstances, so it looks bad for her in long run.
    #73 Apr 18 2006 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
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    Quote:
    Renting the coochie by the minute = the drugs themselves

    Totem


    XD, LOL, ok now that was funny.

    Having a brick of coke is more along the lines of possesion with intent to distribute, unless that is the same as a drug deal?

    <edit> nvm, something happened here in Ga they founf a mil worth a weed in his house, by a neighbors tip. They charged him with drug dealing, even though they didnt catch him in the act.
    If you got a brick of coke, pounds of weed your going to sell that ****, unless you have a huge drug problem. XD

    Edited, Tue Apr 18 15:55:47 2006 by kalaria
    #74 Apr 18 2006 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
    Good crack is just like crack.
    #75 Apr 18 2006 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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    Turtle wrote:
    Good crack is just like crack.


    You've heard the phrase "WRONG HOLE !!!!!" quite a bit haven't you?
    #76 Apr 18 2006 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
    Doesn't matter because she was getting paid, right?
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