"died for our sins"Follow

My 2 Cents...


It's about the Gospel. Jesus died on the cross so that our sins could be forgiven... But, i believe our sins could've been forgiven long before the crucifixion of Christ. I feel his crucifixion was an act of publicity... Now the whole world knows of God, religion, and the crucifixion of Christ. This was over 2000 years ago, and people are still talking about it like it was yesterday... There will always be those who deny a higher existance, but without the gospel, those who have faith will fade away...


And consider this, humans as a race, are young. We can't possibly know all the answers to the questions yet...But it doesn't make them any less real.

Boy, did YOU miss the bus somewhere in this discussion.

Your analogy of the little old lady dying has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Job wasn't a faithful person dying a perfectly normal death at the end of a long and healthy life. According to the Bible, Job was a many being tormented by Satan WITH THE ENCOURAGEMENT of God, because God had a point of ego to confirm. Basically, it went something like this:

God: My homeboy Job is so righteous, dude, NOTHING could make him diss me
Satan: I call Bullsh[/black]it. Betcha I could torture him enough to make him diss you
God: Nuh-uh, no way, man. Not this cat Job. He's WAY too righteous for your sh[black]it
Satan: Naah, no one's that righteous. I could pull it off
God: Could not!
Satan: Could too!
God: yeah, sure, fine, whatever. I'll take that bet. Go ahead and do your worst, your *** will get royally pwned!




And again, your analogy has nothing to do with anything. This wasn't someone standing helplessly by while something awful they couldn't prevent happened, this was someone ENCOURAGING something awful to happen to stroke their own ego. A closer analogy was the teacher/bully one made above, or if we were to stick with yours, would be the bystander pointed the six muggers toward the hapless other guy, and got a good **** on and chortling in amusement as they mugged him.

Ergo, my original assertion: God is an as[black][/black]shole.


Edited, Sun Apr 16 07:42:56 2006 by Ambrya

So my analogy wasn't what the base principle was? God sat idly by when he could've done something? I'm not saying your wrong for believing God is an *******, because I don't know, never met the guy.





Before changing your definition of an ******* my analogy was right on. Someone sat idly by and didn't do anything to help, just like your first definition says.

They imported. The whole Jesus over-turning tables at the temple thing was because the temple courtyard was filled with guys looking to make a buck off the observant Jews by selling doves for sacrificing.

I think also that the religious doctrines would start to make less sense.. being that many of the laws and codes were made to keep order in an agrarian society.. so things like keeping track of holidays, sacrifices for crop abundance... and other such things would have less of a hold on the minds of a more urban culture...

so some new ideas needed to be added..

Sometimes I question my unmitigated hate for everyone and then someone like Moe comes along and shows me the way. I love you man!

Maybe Jesus went to hell, beat Satan in strip poker four thousand times in a row before Satan had enough and kicked him out.

Perhaps Satan saw Jesus enter Hell and was like "Hell no! Not that dude again, he's like the son of God, my sworn enemy! I don't care about rules being rules, send him the fu[/black]ck back!"

Or perhaps religions are just an excuse created by people who were afraid of death.

Meh.

I would've believed more in God and all that if Jesus, hanging on the cross, had said "Haha, ya fu[/black]cking nubs! Spikes through my feet and hands you say? Well, how about I counter that with burning skin and boiling blood? How you like them apples? Ooh, ooh, it hurts, boo hoo. Here, have some snakes and a little frog swarm as well. It's an old trick Moses taught me. Ya, watch them jump around going 'ribbit' all the time. Hmm. Oh well, I'm off ya stupid bastids" and *poof* he's gone.

But no no, let's get killed. Yeah. Holding back on superpowers is a good way to convince people that you are a god. It's like Superman going "I'm not going to stop that nuclear missile. I could fly up and toss it into outer space with little effort for I am Superman. But I won't because you need to choose to believe in me."

I could do that. Would you believe me to be Superman if I said that? Why not?

Funny how people so easily accept that there is a greater meaning with life than just eating, breeding and dying like all the other animals do. I guess humans are different from animals and that our shared DNA has nothing to with evolution and everything to do with God being lazy when he created the species.

But as my uncle always said, there are three things one should never discuss with friends: religion, politics and horses. So I'll leave the religious debate and save it for another day.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 20:16:24 2006 by Mazra

Or maybe Jesus died and went to the relm known as hell. Destroyed Satan and hell itself. Now if you believe in Christ and ask him to forgive our sins you'll go to Heaven. If not, you'll be reincarnated on earth. Or maybe, Or maybe...

Thought I would get back to this thread. Allow me to wade into the Quagmire that is Catholic theology. I am not an expert so bare with me.

The concept you are looking for is Atonement.

Humanity lives with Original Sin. Adam disobeyed the will of the Lord and thus invoked the Wrath of God. This wrath has been down the generations. While a newborn hasnt committed any personal sins they are faced with Original Sin and are therefore born spiritually dead. Now a spiritually dead person can have faith and do good acts but it doesnt do him any good when it comes to getting in Gods good graces.

To remedy this glaring problem God took on Human flesh in the form of Jesus Christ. Jesus in the end died for our sins. It was not a suicide but rather a sacrifice. God sacrificed his corporeal form, his son that is in fact himself in order to atone for the Original Sin. Thus he gave us access to the kingdom and showed his infinite mercy by taking it upon himself to even the score. Those that partake in the body of Christ through baptism, worship and the sacraments have access to the holy spirit and are wiped clean of original sin

Moving on to the Harrowing of Hell

I could start quoting 1 Peter or Epistle to the Ephesians but the basic jist is that upon dying on the cross Jesus entered the realms of the dead. Not heaven. Of course the realms of the dead consist of more than just Hell, you have Purgatory, Limbo etc. As Lucy states you won't find a reference to the Harrowing of Hell in the Bible. Its probably one of those things that was built up in order to help deal with the question of 'what happens to good people in the Bible who lived before Christ and therefore were unable to enter Heaven?".



Edited, Tue Apr 18 23:52:39 2006 by bodhisattva

Edited, Wed Apr 19 01:31:09 2006 by bodhisattva

As Lucy states you won't find a referebce to the Harrowing of Hell in the Bible.

In the Catholic church, tratidion and the Bible are equal dogmatically. Which, frankly, makes a lot more sense than arbitrary translation 100000934 of the english from the roaman from the greek from the aramaic being held as cannon.

They strike me as both being foolish in their own way.

Well, they're both methods of controlling massive amounts of people and resources via a fairy tale about a guy getting nailed to a tree 2000 years ago.

So yeah. Foolish is a good word.

Only three days? I thought it was forever or nothing.

I should probably know a bit more about these things being that I'm officially a Catholic, but I just can't take it seriously.

If I can just go there for three days I could turn it into a sort of tour. Three days in Hell, four nights in Heaven and perhaps another 75 years as a mortal again. That would be sweet.

While we're at the subject, does anyone know if the Bible mentions whether or not pets are allowed in Heaven/Hell? I'd like to go there, but not without my cat.