PatriotismFollow

I'm a Patriot. I'm patriotic. I'm proud of being an Englishman, a European, a Lancastrian.

It doesn't make me any better than anyone else; just something that I hold dear.

But Nationalism - that "My country, Right or Wrong" mentality - well that's what fuelled the 3rd Reich (pre-emptive Godwins call), invaded the Falklands and was used to tru to justify the rape of the 3rd world by various western regimes (from the British Empire to the Coalition Oil-Rush in the Gulf).

I despise Nationalism.

So where's the line in the sand? What's the difference between Patriotism and Nationalism?

Who should I feel OK to be proud of being English, but not proud of being White? Neither were choices within my control?

Why should I despise UK and US immigration policy as elitist and xenophobic?

Discuss.

Dance monkeys! Dance!

This is exactly why I enjoy the company on goats.

Patriotism I think is generally being proud of your country, while nationalism is being blinded by your pride in your country.

Though I'm not sure about some of the immigration policies various countries hold are such a bad idea, considering if someone is working illegally in the country they may be likely to not be getting a legal wage or be paying taxes to really be able to help with supporting the country they reside in.

Generally illegal immigrants will probably gravitate towards low skill and low paying jobs, and so having people not even getting payed minimum wage probably helps to keep wages down accross the board for such jobs which generally just seems a bit sad. I know Canada already seems to have some guest worker programs operating that seem to do alright so it's not as though there isn't an example to emulate.

Considering some of the cultural conflicts surrounding illegal mexican immigrants in the US, people may feel like Mexicans should try to become more a part of the US and learn english and such given most people in the US probably come from families that came to this country long in the past and losing much all connection to any older languages or cultures they possessed (in my case, I doubt many are all that familiar with Moravia even existing).

Everything does when you're 12.

I don't see patriotism as having anything to do with pride. It's humility, at its heart - a realization that one has a long way to go to measure up to the best one's country has to offer, coupled with a sense of how much has already been offered over the years. A patriot sees problems and wants to fix them, because he loves his country and wants it to always be the best possible.

Nationalism is jingoism, in my mind's definition. It's flag waving and refusal to admit problems. It's denying that other countries have any rational reason to fear or hate one's own. It's selective blindness.

Maybe you should think about what it means to be "proud" of something.

Can you really be proud of something that is completely out of your control? The fact you were born in England, that you are from Lancashire, that are you are white, that you are male, that you have two arms... You did not achieve any of these things. They happened to you, purely by a mixture of coincideneces and luck.

So what is there to be "proud" about?

I think "pride" comes from a sense of personal achievement. not from something over which you have absolutely no control.

Would you be less proud had you been born in Spain? In Italy? Probably not.

To me, none of this "pride", just affiliation. You find the "good" things about England, and associate with them as though they were your own. But, really, they are not. Thjey are other's people's achievment. The fact you were born in England gives you a right to have something in common with these people (you were born on the same island), but apart from that? Not much...

To me, patriotism and nationalism are exactly the same thing. People who don't want to appear violent and war-mongering use "patriotism", but it's the same. It's associating with something bigger than you, and feeling "part of it" for one reason or another. It's the same as white supremacists. All they have in common in the fact they are white. What is there to be "proud" about? Nothing...

I'm obviously not saying that it's exactly the same (white supremacist bring other races into the equation), but conceptually, it is the same need to belong to something bigger than you, to find a common point with a bunch of other people. "We're white", "we're English", "We're Europeans", "We're ******* fans". But deep down, there is nothing more to it than that.

SO, IMO, you are not wrong to be happy you are English, it would've been worse had you been Zimbabwean. But "proud" is just not the right word, I dont think...

Just my 2 Euros...

Fu[Aliceblue][/Aliceblue]ck off ****.

His own ***.

Its amazing how much can be pulled out of it, even more amazing how much is already stored within.

Was your Mom smoking Aids-Pole while she breast-fed you, di[Azure][/Azure]ck-wad?

Nationalism by any connotation implies an assumed superiority of a nation or race. (Quick! Go scuttle off to a dictionary and find some denotation that to your simplistic mind argues against this. You know the difference between denotation and connotation, right?)

I feel a swell in my chest when I see the Union Jack flying over Buckingham Palace, when I see our soldiers marching immaculately in line at the trooping of the coloUr or a state event, or see an Olympian weeping as their nation's flag is held above them when their national anthem acknowledges their victory.

I also acknowledge that if my Pakisatan-born neighbour sees the white crescent on a green flag he feels the same. He can feel a warm reminder of where his ancestors are from that made him the man he is. We're both happy citizens of a country that allows us to celebrate our heritage.

I was touched to see Amir Khan (A devout Moslem with a broad Lancashire Accent) hold up his Athens Gold Medal draped in two flags that mean a lot to him; the Union Jack and the Pakistani Flag. A Great Englishman indeed.

But when I see the Union Jack waved by neo-*****, the bile rises in my throat, just as it does when I see the Palestinian Flag wrapped around Suicide Bombers, or the Stars'n'Stripes waved by pointy-hatted cross burners.

I hear Moe getting all misty-eyed and Viking about some scandinavian who uprooted a few generations back, Joph waxing lyrical about the former glories of Poland, and Flea'lo expounding the joys of Peruvian cuisine and culture. That's cool.

As Ian Anderson sang: "Everyone is from somewhere, Even if they've never been there". I know what he means.

But flag-waving jingoistic bastards who can justify torture, invasion and subjugation under the "my flag pwns your flag" rule make me wanna blow chunks.

Once again, you've missed the point entirely and proved yourself to be the Arsylum's Global Village Idiot.

Your *** is my plaything, simpleton!

Extremisn of any form breeds unacceptable consequences. Nationalism is just one of those.

What I see is that nationalists gain power due to the current situation of missrepresentation of goverment in places like the EU where the peoples wishes are not adhered to. The brussels beaurocracy telling the populace what they should want, so arrogant it beggars belief. That gives rise to nationalism, the opposite of the Eurocrat dream, what I see as a natural reaction. People need their voice, and if not heard by their governments, they will make their voices known ....

"The only good Pole is a Deed Pole"

/runs and hides

Fair point