Bleh.Follow

So this is a recurring theme in my life. I'm Catholic, I have a great faith in God I accept Jesus blah blah blah. However, I'm flabbergasted by the way certain people approach religion in this country. In Peru at the time I left, everyone I knew was Catholic, but there was a pretty healthy doubt of anything said by the church or any priests. Faith was a personal thing, and I was raised to think that the minutiae didn't much matter. However, since '87 when I came here, I occasionally run into some religious fanatic that really thinks he/she knows the way of things (which I have no problem with) and tries to convert me to their way of thinking (which I do have a problem with).

I've explored many faiths on my own, out of curiousity, and I've even practiced them, but always in a spirit of inquisitiveness. As much faith as I have, I know that it's nothing I can bludgeon someone with until they think like me, nor is it something I feel would be snuffed out by reading the Post's horoscope, therby consigning me to hell.

I made a comment to a guy I work with today about medicine, and he told me he only took natural herbs because drugs are DRUGS could have adverse effects. I told him that many natural medicines are also harmful and have side effects, blah blah. At this point, he quoted a Bible passage that he used to support natural medicine. I told him that this didn't mean much to me, because although I had faith, I don't take the Bible all literal like that to the point of making me exclude things I won't know for sure until after I'm dead. He said that he had proof of all things, and that it was in the Bible. I wouldn't take umbrage, expect you can use the Bible to support just about anything, so I told him that if it was proof enough for him then that's all that matters. I didn't want to get into it with a co-worker, but I realized today this attitude really bothers me because in my heart of hearts, I think it's ignorant.

Burn the Bible. Set fire to it and watch it turn to ash.



How does that make you feel?


Judging by your writing above, you might feel a temporary twinge of disgust at the idea (as it destroys the holy work of a given religion), but you could probably get over it. It's no different than flag burning, or the destruction of any other type of property. It probably matters very little given the number of bibles of any particular translation in circulation at this moment.

The problem is the folks who, if you burned a bible, would attempt to do you great physical harm. They are plentiful in this country. I believe you know quite a few people like this in your personal life.


This is offered as an illustrative example. If you have faith and belief, the Bible itself means very little. It is a symbol and an icon, a repository of stories, but it is in no way the whole of the religion. It is only a book.

The problem folks are the ones who don't believe in the religion so much as in its trappings. They say the right prayers and go to the church on Sunday. They listen to the local priest and sing the appropriate hymns when called for. They love their Bible (oh yes they do!), and they can quote you passages at length without really understanding the meaning behind them. They are practicing religion, a higher-order function of the human brain, with all the sophistication of south pacific cargo cults.

They have come to believe not in God, not in Jesus, not in the message behind those personifications of the faith -- All they really believe in is the structure. After all, you can't reach out and touch God, but your Bible's always close to hand.

That's where I see the problem.

Edited, Wed Mar 22 17:03:22 2006 by Wingchild

So if your brother tries to convert you, you have to stone him, and it isn't a metaphor. The Bible scares me. I prefer the Easter and Christmas types, personally. (Actually, it looks like this example just applies to Israelites, but who the hell knows.)

It's annoying to me when people say that fanatics twist their religions to make them violent. It looks the other way around to me.

Edited, Wed Mar 22 17:32:02 2006 by Vorpalfist

I would recommend The End of Faith by Sam Harris. Amazon

***** that. American Gods by Neil Gaiman. They're in your living room.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!








on a more serious note, it's human nature. Relgion is just a critical area where it is seen most. And it's not just one specific religion. We see it more in the Judeo Christian type because it is the most common. But it's everywhere in every type of cult you will find.


Some peopls have the desire to take things further than they should, making them feel more "rightous" when in honesty, it's more like a bandaid, hiding the insecurities they feel towards life and as a human. Just nod your head, let your eyes glaze over, and walk away knowing their overzealous attitude is most likely just a cover up without them even knowing it.




Speaking of religion I had a chuckle today. I was behind a car with a monstrous bumper sticker that said "Jesus: its the reason for the season" and had the three wise men. I could never do it, but I wanted to pop out and let her know that in fact, Jesus was not born on CHristmas but the holiday was moved to the time to converge it with the pagan holiday Solstice, in order to help the religious convergance of the Pagans. But then I remembered I would have been talking to a mental brick wall, like the same ones we had on our doorstep today preaching about their God.


Edited, Wed Mar 22 18:38:31 2006 by DSD

Right, of course. I only mentioned it because I thought you might find it interesting from a purely educational standpoint, if you're at all curious about the subject matter.

(Though I've never read it, myself)

EDIT: lucky 7's!

Edited, Wed Mar 22 18:53:57 2006 by Eske

AFter posting on here for 2 or so years.. I find the need to be careful now wehn I'm in conversations with "real-life" people, lest I start verbally flaming them for their stupidity.

It's kinda fun, the mental equivalent to eating large ammounts of St. John's Wart.

Pascal managed.

But let's be fair here. Sure. A lot of "bad things" have been done in the name of religion. And certainly religion is full of some pretty questionable things. However, in order to "blame religion", you really need to argue that those bad things would not have happened if religion had not been involved. And personally, I think that's a *very* hard point to argue.

Hitler didn't kill people because of a religious belief. Neither did Stalin. The rape of Nanking had nothing to do with religion. Neither did the massive killings under Mao. Neither did the massive killings by Mr. Pot (Pol, not Marijuana). Rwanda? Not about religion. Darfour? Nope.

In fact, it's pretty hard to find any significant number of deaths that can be directly attributed to the believers of one religion killing another group because their faith directs them to do so. The closest we can come in modern times is Islamic terrorism, and even then there's question as to whether the motives are truely religious instead of political, and even if you add up all the deaths caused by Islamic terrorists over the last 40 years, it doesn't equal the number killed by any single person I listed earlier. Heck. Saddam killed more people between 1980 and 2000 then have ever died from Islamic terrorist attacks. And he doesn't really even make the list of the biggest mass killers of the last century.


I'm certainly not condoning or excusing anything. I am saying that if we're going to talk about something as broad as "religion", that we should take it in context of other broad ideas. And on that scale, socialism is *waaaaay* ahead.

Your faith (or lack of it) should be absolute. I'm arguing in blind advocacy of man-made religious dictates, or blind denial of the possibility of a Higher Power, for that matter. Either is equally disappointing to me.

Talk to me when you come back from the dead and let me know the way of things. Until then, don't assume you know, and don't assume that your Will to Feel Like Jesus's Star Pupil (or The Voice of Reason) surpasses someone's Right to Free Will.

Edited, Thu Mar 23 08:31:35 2006 by Atomicflea

/nod

A few years ago I decided I was going back to church. I had gone just about every Sunday up through high school and even part way through college, but since then I had drifted away from it. I still have my personal beliefs but I just wasn't interested in organized religion at all. It had been about 5 years since I had really been to church.

So, I decided to shop around all the churches in my community to find the one that was right for me. I tried a few and eventually found this one. I happened to go on the week before they started an orientation type class. I decided to attend the orientation and see what it was all about.

So, for 6 weeks in a row, instead of regular service I went to the orientation. We weren't in the same room with all of the church members and we didn't get to hear the sermons. It felt like an attempted brainwashing. We had lessons about all the fundamental beliefs of the church.

Then, in the last week of the orientation, they decided it was time to discuss financial matters. They went into great detail with us about how we were supposed to tithe. They made it clear that our tithe was to be calculated based on our gross pay, not our net pay. We actually spent over an hour discussing the details of how much money we should give to the church. I had the impression that they would have taken the money directly out of my pay if they could. We still had not even attented an actual service. It was at this point that they wanted people to sign up to become church members.

I left as soon as possible and I didn't go back. This experienced completely turned me off of organized religion once again.