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Kerry's hearing things againFollow

#1 Jun 04 2004 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
He's doing it again

If he does not have someone who will stand next to him and say these things publicly, why does he even say things like this? Give me the opportunity to talk to him and a lot of vets and active duty I know and we will tell him where he stick his ideas, and the sun don't shine there.
#2 Jun 04 2004 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Polling of military households shows he's right. I'm having a little trouble seeing what it is you have a problem with him saying.

This may be the first election in decades where the military trends Blue.
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#3 Jun 04 2004 at 10:37 PM Rating: Decent
I have a problem with him saying he's hearing things, but the people that are supposedly talking don't have the balls to stand next to him publicly and voicing their opinions publicly.

He has had world leaders tell him publicly it is time for a change but he won't say who and now the US Military. That is what I have a problem with.

Let's see who is standing beside him and whispering this **** in his ear. Don't give inuendo, give substance and live people saying this into a camera.
#4 Jun 04 2004 at 11:08 PM Rating: Decent
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There are decorated veterans who stand with the man daily. When you win a Silver Star feel free to question their and his' sacrafices and right to state what they believe and what they hear from veterans and active duty military.

Untill then you appear not only ignorant, but unworthy to crtisize a man who's sacrafice in service to this nation massively eclipses your own.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#5 Jun 05 2004 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Untill then you appear not only ignorant, but unworthy to crtisize a man who's sacrafice in service to this nation massively eclipses your own.


How can I be ignorant when I read a story and respond to what is written.

A silver star is an honorable award, however throwing the silver star away is not. The man deserves absolutely no more respect from me regarding his service to the country, unless he had continued to serve his country for an entire career.

Don't criticize my service to this country when you have absolutely no facts about my service or how it has been performed. I've dedicated 20 years of service to our country and if that is not as honorable or more honarable than Kerry's service in your opinion then that is fine, but it is irrelevant to this discussion. It's all about sacrifice, how much did you sacrifice for your country? 3 or 4 years.

Quote:
The presumptive Democratic presidential nominee added: "But the numbers of active duty people quietly coming and saying we need a change, we need to build a modern military, we need to do the things necessary to protect our troops, we need to have all our allies on the ground in Iraq ... that's what this race is about."


Like I said he is doing it again. What more proof do you need?





Edited, Sat Jun 5 13:45:42 2004 by Stok
#6 Jun 05 2004 at 2:52 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
A silver star is an honorable award, however throwing the silver star away is not. The man deserves absolutely no more respect from me regarding his service to the country, unless he had continued to serve his country for an entire career.


Um, he was a prosecutor for our country and a senator, besides being a war hero and serving in the reserves. So I reckon he has served the US for his entire career.
#7 Jun 05 2004 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Um, he was a prosecutor for our country and a senator, besides being a war hero and serving in the reserves. So I reckon he has served the US for his entire career.


And I have spent my entire career serving our country without any political ambition. My life is not upto public scrutiny, but his is, and I have EVERY right to criticize and critique a Presidential Nominee as much as any Liberal has to criticize and critque the current Commander in Chief and call him a liar.

Smash may refute this but my perception was he was referring to Kerry's service on Active Duty, not his entire career.

Kerry is making reference to things "told him" that he is unwilling to substantiate. Shall we put what happened in Vietnam on the side for this debate and let's discuss the fact that the man speaks but is unwilling to back it up. I'd hate to have a President who talks tall but doesn't carry a big stick.
#8 Jun 05 2004 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Stok wrote:
I'd hate to have a President who talks tall but doesn't carry a big stick.

As opposed to a President who carries a gun, and shoots first and asks questions later?

I'm not a big fan of Kerry, I'm one of those people who will be voting for him because he's not Bush. But one thing I do like about him is the ability to hold two opposing thoughts in his head at one time. Bush never admits he's wrong, never takes blame, never changes his mind. Kerry served in the military and yet is able to refrain from being gung-ho, go america, die-hard republican like many veterans. He is able to recognize that dissent is GOOD for the nation, as evidenced by his public denouncement of Vietnam and throwing away his medals (or ribbons or whatever).

#9 Jun 05 2004 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I believe that active duty personal have rules which prevent them from openly voicing support for political candidates. So someone on active duty can't stand next to Kerry and speak up in support of him.

The President can get away with have active duty personal stand next to him, as long as he doesn't claim it's a campain rally.

So I expect we'll see his campain use alot of pictures with military in the background in political ads for the months to come.



Edited, Sat Jun 5 21:11:48 2004 by ElneClare
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In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#10 Jun 05 2004 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Stok, what is it exactly you take issue with? That he's not naming private citizens so that they can be smeared by the opposite political party?

Quote:

It's all about sacrifice, how much did you sacrifice for your country? 3 or 4 years.

If you're referrig to me, try twelve years. If you're referring to Kerry he was wounded three times in combat. He left a war that he thought was morraly wrong because he was eligible to do so because of being wounded three times.

It boggles the mind that you'd be questioning the character of a man who risked his life multiple times for his brothers in Vietnam when the standard for comparison is George W Bush. If he was running against John McCain you'd have a leg to stand on, but he isn't. He's running against a man who used his socio-economic status to avoid having to fight while Kerry, who certainly could have done the same chose to put his life at risk for this country.

Pick something else to critizise the man about, this just won't wash.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#11 Jun 05 2004 at 10:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Frighteningly enough, I agree with Smash. The man did three(?)years of active duty. That he threw away a commendation given to him during a war he didn't agree with might say something about his politics (or morals, if you prefer) but does not erase the fact that he risked his life and was wounded in the service of his country.

Had he deserted or dodged the draft you might have a leg to stand on here. I'm not singing Kerry's praises in general, just suggesting that you pick your battles better ...

Edited, Sat Jun 5 23:11:31 2004 by ValkyrieBuffinstuff
#12 Jun 05 2004 at 10:49 PM Rating: Decent
I'm not critizing John Kerry's Service. He served honorably and received the Silver Star, I can not disrespect the man for that action. He is a hero who fought for his country and a brave soul. I RESPECT JOHN KERRY FOR BEING A SOLDIER!

What I can criticize is the fact that twice now he tells us that private people tell him things and that he will not divulge specifically who. It is events like this that if you won't back your story up with facts, then just don't say anything.

It was you Smash that I was asking how long you served. And serving any time with a an Honorable discharge is worthy of respect whether it be 4 years, 20 or more.

#13 Jun 05 2004 at 11:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I would think that the servicemen in question are fighting the Iraq war and are reluctant to come forward publicly and criticize it. Not only would it make them subject to the scrutiny of their peers in the military, but it would probably give fuel to the terrorists to know that the American soldiers are losing heart or some silly thing.

Makes sense to me.
#14 Jun 06 2004 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

What I can criticize is the fact that twice now he tells us that private people tell him things and that he will not divulge specifically who. It is events like this that if you won't back your story up with facts, then just don't say anything.

So, just to be clear, you want Kerry to name specefic active duty military personel who support him politicaly??

There's one tiny flaw with your desire.

IT'S ILLEGAL FOR ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY PERONEL TO PUBLICALLY SUPPORT ONE PARTY OR THE OTHER

They can ONLY do so annonymously.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#15 Jun 06 2004 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
The way I see it, Military service doesn't matter anyways...At least that is what Clinton said. Or does it now? Ill have to ask CLinton
#16 Jun 06 2004 at 8:24 AM Rating: Decent
Duh! HOw foolish of me to see what is going on. Not only is it wrong for World leaders to come right out and say that they endorse Kerry because a change is needed, but also that Citizens of our Armed Forces will hold their tongue publicly because it is wrong to publicly endorse a Presidential Nominee.

Since it is wrong for these two groups of people to endorse Kerry publicly, then the entire US Electoral and Voting process must be a conspiracy to overthrow the current US Administration and anyone supporting Kerry is a conspirator. Oh give me a break.

Since it is illegal as you say then show me the LAW and Military Regulations that states members of the Armed Forces are not allowed to support a nominee for the office of US President, by publicly acknowldeging support. Because if it is illegal to show support of one candidate over the other then the next logical step would be that it is also illegal for anyone in the Armed Forces to vote for anyone that is not the current Commander in Chief.

Even though Kerry has potential and credentials to be President, his comments about other peoples statements are truly worrisome.

I mean think about it, behind closed doors in the White House, top advisors and intelligent weenies informed President Bush that they believed Iraq had weapons of Mass Destruction and that was one reason to invade the country. Now based on "hearsay and conjecture" we went to war, since the war has taken place and no substantial WMD have been found (that we know of) the President is a liar, because he had people telling him stuff that now he can not substantiate because we have not found any substantial amount of WMD.

Now Kerry who is a Nominee for the Democratic Party's Presidential bid has on more than one occassion stated that world leaders and members of America's Armed Forces state that it is time for a change in the White House, yet he will not substantiate these rumors and this hearsay. So in my opinion John Kerry is lying until he can provide proof that these groups have privately endorsed him as a candidate. Until this happens, until the proof is provided, Kerry is lying.

Of course these people probably have done what Kerry says they have and truly I have no doubt that this may be true, but until I see proof Kerry is a liar.
#17 Jun 06 2004 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Seriously Stok, put down the crackpipe.

Assertions made to congress to justify a war, and political campaign speeches do not fall into the same arena of analysis.
#18 Jun 06 2004 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
says who?
:) ;) :D :P

Edited for Deathwysh.


Edited, Sun Jun 6 11:19:07 2004 by Stok
#19 Jun 06 2004 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
IT'S ILLEGAL FOR ACTIVE DUTY MILITARY PERONEL TO PUBLICALLY SUPPORT ONE PARTY OR THE OTHER

So, by that explanation, they can be little whiney ******* because they don't like the fact that they have been sent to do what they signed up knowing full well they might have to do, as long as they do it anonymously, to a Democrat who will end their suffering by cutting their funding?

Sweet.
#20 Jun 06 2004 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Assertions made to congress to justify a war, and political campaign speeches do not fall into the same arena of analysis


Assertions that at the time had the almost the entire UN's agreement on and the US Congress. Damn he had so many people publicly agreeing with him that the course of action being taken was a good action. But is now a liar, even though a good number of people agreed. Compared to someone who says he has support of people that want to change the current administration because of the war in Iraq and are supposedly Active Duty Military but he is unwilling to divulge his sources. Hmmm looks to me that it falls into the same arena, the two issues are about the same thing the war in Iraq and who lying or who has lied.

No crack pipe smoking here, just looking at the situation from a side you don't agree with.
#21 Jun 06 2004 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
says who?


With arguments like this you undermine what little credibility you still have.
#22 Jun 06 2004 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
Oh get a grip and a sense of humor. Oh wait no smiley face, sorry :)

Edited, Sun Jun 6 11:18:18 2004 by Stok
#23 Jun 06 2004 at 10:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Stok, How many civic lessons do you need?

I didn't serve in the military, but I was a navy wife for 8 years. I knew, even before my ex went back on active duty, that the miltary couldn't endorse political cannidates. This law goes back to the very writing of the consttuion and the decison to put Military command in the hands of the President as the civilian Commander in Chief.


If anyone in the chain of command ordered that members of the armed services vote for the Commander in Chief, it would be an illegal order. In years past, any Federal empolyee was prevented from partcipating in polical parties or election campains. Now they can as private citizens, as long as they don't do so at their job.

____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#24 Jun 06 2004 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
ElneClare,

Before I speak I know full well what the law says, to do therwise would be Smasharooish.

Quote:
Can: Register, vote, and express a personal opinion on political candidates and issues, but not as a representative of the Armed Forces. Military members who reside outside of their state of legal residence (whether assigned to a different state, or overseas) may vote by absentee ballot. See the Federal Voting Assistance Program Web site for complete details.

Cannot: Use contemptuous words against the officeholders described in 10 U.S.C. 888 (10 U.S.C. 888 lists the following officeholders: President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which the military member is on duty).

It's interesting to note at this point that Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) makes it a crime for commissioned officers to use contemptuous words against the above officeholders. Commissioned officers who violate this provision can be court-martialed for a direct violation of Article 88. But, what about enlisted members and warrant officers?

DOD Directive 1344.10 - POLITICAL ACTIVITIES BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES ON ACTIVE DUTY, extend these same requirements to all individuals on active duty. Active duty enlisted members and warrant officers who violate these provisions can be charged under Article 92 of the UCMJ, Failure to Obey an Order or Regulation.

So, what about retired members? Well, DOD Directive 1344.10 only applies to active duty, so retired enlisted and warrant officers can pretty much say anything they want concerning the above office-holders. However, Article 2 of the UCMJ specifically states that retired members are subject to the provisions of the UCMJ. Does that mean that retired commissioned officers are prohibited from using contemptious words against the above officeholders? Technically, yes. A retired commissioned officer who utters contemptuous words against the President or other designated officeholders is technically in violation of Article 88. However, DOD Directive 1352.1 - MANAGEMENT AND MOBILIZATION OF REGULAR AND RESERVE RETIRED MILITARY MEMBERS, prohibits recalling a retired military member to actively duty solely for the purpose of subjecting them to court-martial jurisdiction. Therefore, unless that retired commissioned officer was recalled to active duty for other purposes, it would not be possible to subject them to court-martial for a violation of Article 88.


Quote:
Can: Promote and encourage other military members to exercise their voting franchise, if such promotion does not constitute an attempt to influence or interfere with the outcome of an election.
Cannot: Use official authority or influence to interfere with an election, affect the course or outcome of an election, solicit votes for a particular candidate or issue, or require or solicit political contributions from others.

Can: Make monetary contributions to a political organization, party, or committee favoring a particular candidate or slate of candidates, subject to monetary limitations under federal law.

Cannot: Make campaign contributions to another member of the Armed Forces or an employee of the Federal Government.

Cannot: Make campaign contributions to a partisan political candidate.

Cannot: Solicit or receive a campaign contribution from another member of the Armed Forces or from a civilian officer or employee of the United States for promoting a political objective or cause.

Cannot: Solicit or otherwise engage in fundraising activities in Federal offices or facilities, including military reservations, for a partisan political cause or candidate.

Can: Sign a petition for specific legislative action or a petition to place a candidate's name on an official election ballot, if the signing does not obligate the member to engage in partisan political activity and is done as a private citizen and not as a representative of the Armed Forces.

Can: Write a letter to the editor of a newspaper expressing the member's personal views on public issues or political candidates, if such action is not part of an organized letter-writing campaign or concerted solicitation of votes for or against a political party or partisan political cause or candidate.

Cannot: Allow or cause to be published partisan political articles signed or written by the member that solicits votes for or against a partisan political party or candidate.

Can: Join a political club and attend its meetings when not in uniform.

Cannot: Serve in any official capacity or be listed as a sponsor of a partisan political club.

Cannot: Speak before a partisan political gathering of any kind for promoting a partisan political party or candidate.

Cannot: Participate in any radio, television, or other program or group discussion as an advocate of a partisan political party or candidate.


Cannot: Conduct a political opinion survey under the auspices of a partisan political group or distribute partisan political literature.

Cannot: Sell tickets for, or otherwise actively promote, political dinners and other such fund-raising events.

Can: Attend political meetings or rallies as a spectator when not in uniform.

Cannot: Attend partisan political events as an official representative of the Armed Forces.

Cannot: March or ride in a partisan political parade.

Can: Serve as an election official, if such service is not as a representative of a partisan political party, does not interfere with military duties, is performed while out of uniform, and has the prior approval of the Secretary concerned or the Secretary's designee.

Cannot: Participate in partisan political management or campaigns, or make public speeches in the course thereof. Cannot: Perform clerical or other duties for a partisan political committee during a campaign or on an Election Day.

Cannot: Participate in any organized effort to provide voters with transportation to the polls if the effort is organized by, or associated with, a partisan political party or candidate.

Can: Display a political sticker on the member's private vehicle.

Cannot: Display a large political sign, banner, or poster (as distinguished from a bumper sticker) on the top or side of a private vehicle.

Cannot: Campaign as a nominee, or as a candidate for nomination, for civil office, except as authorized directly below.

Can: As long as they are not serving on EAD (Extended Active Duty, which equals 270 days) , enlisted members and Reserve officers may hold partisan or nonpartisan civil office if such office is held in a private capacity and does not interfere with the performance of military duties.


Need another lesson?

I know that the military can not tell some one how to vote. Get a sense of sarcasm. Please!!!

Edited, Sun Jun 6 11:43:57 2004 by Stok

Edited, Sun Jun 6 11:43:11 2004 by Stok
#25 Jun 06 2004 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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hard to be scarcasic when you're trying to deal with connection problems and read posts at the same time.

Right now I'm wishing we hada firearm to use on our linksys router, but then Jonwin couldn't play EQ while I get my Abuse fix. I have had better connections with dial-up then with this router and concast. Any suggestion on a new router to buy once I take a hammer to this one would be welcome. I hate the thought of going back to dsl and losing connections everytime the wind blows.

Well since you understand and can quote at length the regs, then why have you been beating a dead horse for 3 days? Guess I'll see your answer in 30 minutes as I wait for pages to load.

Elne

____________________________
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare

This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#26 Jun 06 2004 at 11:42 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Well since you understand and can quote at length the regs, then why have you been beating a dead horse for 3 days? Guess I'll see your answer in 30 minutes as I wait for pages to load.


1. Too bad about your connection, I hope the situation gets resolved quickly.

2. It is not a dead horse if people keep replying, is it?

3. The issue still is not whether Active Duty Military can or can not voice thier opinion, the issue is Kerry provides no proof that specific people have made the statements he claims.

4. The liberals on this board always make a post that is anti-liberal into a drawn out discussion on nitpicking detail before the main topic eventually gets over run by frivilous bull ****.

5. Informed people can make informed decisions and opinions. One thing that was learned early in my military career was to understand the regs and laws so that I would not be a "vicitm" of the system. I was actually waiting for one of the "Liberals" who stated something was illegal to prove their point. Too bad that I had to show them the proof, but alas one Liberal is much like all the others.

6. Liberals keep the people down because they spout **** that sounds good, knowing that a good majority of their audience will believe them regardless.

Hava a nice day.
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