Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Why we went to warFollow

#77 May 12 2004 at 5:01 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
It's not coldness or callousness when I say that what we are doing in Iraq is well worth the cost we are paying. Sure. We should certainly attept to minimize our casualties. But to suggest that we shouldn't be there at all? Or that the goals we have are bad ones? I simply don't agree with that at all. We will never know how many US citizens we will save by taking this action. I think that's better then having another 9/11, don't you?[


and thats just the problem too many think that attacking Iraq was about more then greed. It simply beyond any reasonable doubt was not about terroism, or WMD. It was about oil and the need for those in power to accumulate more wealth. Be honest with yourself, erm nm forgot who I was speaking too. North Korea presented more of a threat and continues to present more of a threat. Iraq simply doesnt, but they represent the intrests of the Saudi Arabians whom the Bushes have accepted so much money from that the rest of us cant even comprehend the numbers.

I was wrong about Bush losing the election, you are right the only thing that protects as things currently stand is the 8 year rule. Bush and his cronnies will steal the election as the did before. They will unveil Bin Laden in October and wouldnt be suprised if they ammended the Constitution so he could be President for more then 8 years. The corruption of the current administration knows no bounds and is only perpetuated by the rich, ignorant, and lottery winners like yourself.

Bottom line is we should have never gone to Iraq now that we are there we must finish it in our favour. I sincerely doubt this will happen unless the current administration and its supporters are replaced by people who can think outside of their pocketbook.
#78 May 12 2004 at 8:24 AM Rating: Good
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Quote:
Charon actually bulldozed an entire community
Charon? Mythical boatman of the river Styx?

I'm... sailing... away...
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#79 May 12 2004 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Patrician wrote:
Quote:
The more long term mission is to fight the so called "War on Terror"


The primary goal of a war must be to decrease external threat to a nations safety. Fundamentally. It is very easy to intelligently speculate that this war will increase the risk, and incidents, of terrorist attacks.


Ok. We tried the diplomatic method and ended up with 9/11. Again. What basis are you using to assume that this kind of attack wont happen again if we don't do something?

Quote:
What does "holding nations accountable for harboring/supporting terrorist organizations" achieve? I can be a terrorist tomorrow if I am sufficiently motivated to become one! Al Quada has terrorist cells in most countries. They don't require the support of nations to exist. They require motivation to exist, and it can be argued that this war provides motivation - in fact it multiplies it hundredfold. Ask the people of Madrid.


It does a lot. Any unhappy person can form a "terrorist organization". But unless that group has support (money and training), and a place safe from law enforcement, they have a hard time being more then an annoyance. The difference between the Michigan Militia and Al-queda, besides the specifics of their goals, is that the militia knows they'll be caught and arrested if they start blowing up buildings or tossing gas into subways.

You make the nations culpable and they have a motivation to deal with those groups. One only needs to look at what's going on in Libya right now to see that this part of the "war on terror" is working. Sure. We may **** of a few more people in the process. But I believe that we'll have fewer organized and supported attacks in the future as a result of this new doctrine.

It wasn't the numbers of members that made 9/11 happen. It was Bin-laden's funding and the tacit support of the Taliban government in Afghanistan that allowed Al-queda to do what they did. We knew about Al-queda for years before 9/11/2001. We knew about Bin-laden as well. Clinton launched cruise missiles at their headquarters in Afghanistan, remember? By 1996ish we knew they were responsible for the first WTC bombing. We knew they were responsible for two separate embassy bombings. We knew they were responsible for the USS Cole. We were unable to do anything about it because they were hiding in a nation with which we did not have any extradition treaty and which refused to do anything about them.

So yeah. Targeting nations that harbor terrorist groups is the right approach. Not doing so is why 9/11 happened. I think by correlary, we can say that we may be avoiding the next attack by adopting this doctrine of holding nations responsible. Dunno. Seems to make sense to me...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#80 May 12 2004 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
****
5,372 posts
Quote:
Ok. We tried the diplomatic method and ended up with 9/11. Again. What basis are you using to assume that this kind of attack wont happen again if we don't do something?


This kind of attack has already happened since we started doing something. Madrid. I don't believe you can fight a "War on Terror". Minimising terrorism involves decreasing the amount of motivation that causes it. Suicide bombers need very strong motivation. Invading a country with "shock and awe", blowing up people's houses, capturing, humilating, torturing and killing innocent civillians very clearly increases the motivation of many would be terrorists. Ask Nick Berg.

The only way to protect agaist 9/11 style attacks is to reduce the reasons why America is hated enough for such an attack to happen. You honestly think this war is achieveing that?

We will see. In 20 years time, when Iraqi children who have lived through this war and seen their Mommy's limbs blown off, and Daddy get anally raped by with a broomstick with laughing American guards watching, have grown up and are old enough to do anything about it.
#81 May 12 2004 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
You had plenty of chances to join up before now Gbaji (you're 35 now and I think the max enlistment age is 34...hmmm...how many years has it been since 9-11?)! I really hit a nerve there, eh? (Note to self: hawks get really sensitive when you bring up the fact that they've never even served in the military.)

FYI, I have a BA in Poli Sci, a MLIS, and live a comfortable life. And I EARNED it with my own two hands. Luck had little to do with it. I signed up, served my time, went to school on my G.I. Bill, joined the Reserve, got my degrees, and then my job. I have nothing to whine about, this isn't about me you stupid f*ck! Some people have a perspective that includes more than their own self-interest. And if all those bad things actually did happen to you, I'm truly sorry (unless it could've been simply your own stupidity that led to them...hmmm). But the only thing more insufferable than opinions of somebody who hasn't suffered are those of somebody that didn't learn from their suffering (or maybe in your case learned the wrong things).

How can you be in favor of what is going on right now and not be willing to be a part of it? That's an easy one, be a hypocrite. You're leading from the rear right? Well put on a camo skirt and get some OD pom-poms cheerleader. You are CALLOW, a FOOL, and a COWARD. You know less than nothing about the military, politics, or war. So, to the wise at least, it's you and your opinions that are IRRELEVANT (did you get word-of-the-day toilet paper or something?).

Bottom line: put up or shut up. Your words are meaningless and forgettable. Shall I ask my recruiter buddy about waivers for 35 year olds?

I've got all day to teach you about yourself.

Edited, Wed May 12 14:39:43 2004 by elevenbravo

Edited, Wed May 12 14:54:12 2004 by elevenbravo

Edited, Wed May 12 14:57:29 2004 by elevenbravo
#82 May 12 2004 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
*****
10,291 posts
elevenbravo wrote:
I really hit a nerve there, eh?


Smiley: lol

Skeeter, you reading this?

____________________________
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#83 May 12 2004 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Eleven? So you're saying you have a degree in Poli-sci and the best you can do is: "If you haven't served in the military, then you are a coward and are unqualified to have an opinion on politics".

Um... Yeah. I'd maybe get my money back on that if I were you...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#84 May 12 2004 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
Trying not to, thanks.

Smiley: wink2
#85 May 12 2004 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
****
8,619 posts
Not to rain on your parade Elevenbravo but speaking as a member of the forces i can say this.

Military service does nothing to improve your ability to make good political desicions, nor does it make you an expert on what the military should and shouldn't do.

In my experiance the members of the US forces have an IQ averaging less than those who have not served in the forces. I would much rather trust a business mans view on Iraq than a Marines.

Of course it is a generalisation, but a group of soldiers with drink inside them has to be one of the most antisociel and obnoxious gathering of human beings on the planet.

Thats a fact, i know i am one of them.
#86 May 12 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Default
I see you -for once- forgot how to use the quote feature on the message board Gbaji. Could that be because you intentionally misquoted me in an attempt to distort my message? What I'm saying is that if you are in favor of the war and unwilling to serve in the military, you better have a damn good reason (e.g., be disabled), otherwise the logical inference is that you are at least a hypocrite and/or coward. If you are anti-war your veteran status is IRRELEVANT.

I've got ALL day.

Edited, Wed May 12 15:16:43 2004 by elevenbravo
#87 May 12 2004 at 2:14 PM Rating: Default
Tarv,
I think most people are stupid, in and out of the services. But, that's not my point. My point is people should put their money where their mouth is. That's all. Not too much to ask.

Edited, Wed May 12 15:15:18 2004 by elevenbravo
#88 May 12 2004 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Quote:
I've got ALL day.
Get a job, hippy.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#89 May 12 2004 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
*****
10,291 posts
Smiley: laugh

Oh Jophiel...

____________________________
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#90 May 12 2004 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Hey! Whatever floats your boat. I'll quote you then...

elevenbravo wrote:
What I'm saying is that if you are in favor of the war and unwilling to serve in the military, you better have a damn good reason (e.g., be disabled), otherwise the logical inference is that you are at least a hypocrite and/or coward. If you are anti-war your veteran status is IRRELEVANT.


So. Just to be sure I've got this right:

If I'm in favor of the war, but not a veteran, I'm a hypocrite/coward/whatever. But if I'm anti-war, then veteran status doesn't matter.

Isn't that a double standard? Aren't you basically saying that only veterans can be pro-war?


And let me also get one thing very straight. I'm not "pro-war". I'm simply not rabidly anti-war. There's a difference. If the Congress and the President had decided that Iraq really wasn't a threat sufficient to go to war, and I was sitting on the sidelines arguing that we should "Go over there and waste a few ragheads", then you could lable me "pro-war".

Simply stating that I'm willing to accept the decision that the people we voted into office and gave the power to make said decision simply means that I don't have an overwhelming disagreement with the decision that was made. I don't "blame Bush", or "blame Congress" for making a decision. It's their decision to make. They made it. I'm willing to let them play out their hand and then see how things turn out. I'm willing to accept that maybe the fact that they are in the positions they are in means that they have both the perspective and the *right* to make that decision. I'm willing to accept that they are probably better informed on the details of that choice then you or I, or anyone else posting here is. Because of those reasons, I'm not going to sit back and critisize every little thing they do. And I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to make up reasons and justifications and vague accusations about how their choice was "wrong".


Get it? I don't want US soldiers to die any more then the next guy. I do however, respect that I'm not the Commander in Chief of the US, and I'm not the Congress that authorized the action in Iraq. It's certainly silly to second guess those two bodies in the context of military actions purely for the reason that US soldiers will die. Um... That's why they have those powers. To make that decision. Not me. Not you. Not anyone on this board.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#91 May 12 2004 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
Quote:


If I'm in favor of the war, but not a veteran, I'm a hypocrite/coward/whatever. But if I'm anti-war, then veteran status doesn't matter.

Isn't that a double standard? Aren't you basically saying that only veterans can be pro-war?

This ins't a commentary on the concept, but no, it's clearly not a double standard. It's merely saying that to be in favor of putting people in a position where burning peices of metal slice through their stomachs and their intestines spill out onto the ground and their freinds you should have seen something along those lines in the past. Anti war people have seen the absence of war, pro war people often haven't seen war.

That's just a standard. Like saying "If you don't have kids you can't really argue for lowering the age of consent". You might agree with the concept, but it's not a double standard.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#92 May 12 2004 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
**
466 posts
Why can't we all just get along?
#93 May 12 2004 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Smasharoo wrote:
Quote:


If I'm in favor of the war, but not a veteran, I'm a hypocrite/coward/whatever. But if I'm anti-war, then veteran status doesn't matter.

Isn't that a double standard? Aren't you basically saying that only veterans can be pro-war?

This ins't a commentary on the concept, but no, it's clearly not a double standard. It's merely saying that to be in favor of putting people in a position where burning peices of metal slice through their stomachs and their intestines spill out onto the ground and their freinds you should have seen something along those lines in the past. Anti war people have seen the absence of war, pro war people often haven't seen war.

That's just a standard. Like saying "If you don't have kids you can't really argue for lowering the age of consent". You might agree with the concept, but it's not a double standard.



I still say it's a double standard. That logic, if you accept it, works both ways. Someone who's never been in the military and has never fought in a war would presumably also be unable to determine what sort of military actions were "justified", or "worth it" as well.

A person who's anti-war and who's never served could be so just as much out of ignorance of the facts of war as one who's pro-war (and in my experience, this is the more likely of the two actually). Limiting the follow up of that logic only to the pro-war side is a double standard. In your example about the age of consent, the logic works the same whether you're talking about lowering or raising it. His argument is the equivalent of saying that anyone can argue for raising the age of consent, but only parents can argue for lowering it.


And that's a double standard. Someone is either capable of debating the issue, or is not. You may choose to argue one side or the other of an issue based on your own personal beliefs or experiences, but there's no logic to saying that someone is qualified to argue one side, but not the other.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#94 May 12 2004 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts
Nah it's still just a standard. A *double* standard requires both sides to be equal.

You're arguing that it's an unfair standard, and I'd agree with you, but I think you're confused as to what a double standard is.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#95 May 12 2004 at 9:02 PM Rating: Default
i read through this whole thing and i dont think anyone mentioned the real reason why we went to war.........bush is a dumb ***!!!

amen
#96 May 12 2004 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
I think what underlies what he is saying is that it is not right for some rich prick to be sitting in his condo in Maui, making decisions to send men to their death like they are resources and not people.

It's like me saying, I am willing to sacrifice someone else's life to achieve my goals, but not my own, and therefore how can anyone really take my opinion seriously.

If you can't say that you would give your own life for something, then you have no right to send someone else to their death, otherwise you are the hypocrite, and you are the one with the double-standard.

What he was saying seemed pretty simple to me!

#97 May 12 2004 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
Quote:
bush is a dumb ***!!!

It's ignorant people like you that are the reason other countries have contempt for Americans. I hope you shrivel up and die.

Twiztid
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#98 May 12 2004 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
*
135 posts
Man, I love this place.
#99 May 12 2004 at 9:13 PM Rating: Default
lol ok so what do u think of president bush
#100 May 12 2004 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Smasharoo wrote:
Nah it's still just a standard. A *double* standard requires both sides to be equal.

You're arguing that it's an unfair standard, and I'd agree with you, but I think you're confused as to what a double standard is.


Eh? I think you don't understand what a double standard is:


Main Entry: double standard
Function: noun
1 : BIMETALLISM
2 : a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another; especially : a code of morals that applies more severe standards of sexual behavior to women than to men


Definition two is almost a textbook example of what Eleven was claiming when he said that only veterans can be "pro-war".
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#101 May 12 2004 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji

You said
" Oh no! But the media is telling us what's "really happening". They're the voice of the common man. They're telling you what the corporate/government fat cats don't want you to know. Really!

Ummm ! Well Why does the Media Insist on providing a Daily body count months after the major conflict has ended? Why the every-hour-on-the-hour death totals? With Long, Somber faces the networks report, "Today,two more soldiers were ambushed and died in Iraq." What are we supposed to do with that information?
Think about it.

Why don't these Journalists give us a dialy body count resulting
from Car crashes? Did you know the number of deaths on American highways far exceeds the number of deaths related to the defense of our Nation? In 2002, 42,815 Americans died in auto related crashes. That's 117 deaths every day. Which means virtually the same number of people die each day on our highways as have died in the entire period of active combat in Iraq.

I think it is to Demoralize the resolve of the people and our troops. It is to erode American support for the President in his war on terrorism. Period.

Democrat Congressman Jim Marshall went to Iraq to see our progress for himslef and returned angered by the way the media has been distorting the news. Contrary to most reports, he found our troops to be Encouraged, Energized, and making amazing strides in restoring order and rebuilding infrastructure.

Marshall said, "I'm afraid the news media are hurting our chances. They are dwelling upon the mistakes, the soldiers killed, the wounded... The falsely bleak picture weakens our natinoal resolve, discourages Iraqi cooperation and emboldens our enemy."

Thanks to the warped picture of reality by the media, the polls have shown remarkable post-war drop in support for the president.

That's another reason why I think the military should do a media blackout.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 348 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (348)