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Here's the thing about those Iraqi prisoners...Follow

#1 May 07 2004 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
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No question about it, the behavior of the prison guards was reprehensible. Acting in such a manner places a terrible blemish on the honorable conduct of the rest of the US military and could conceivably endanger the lives of soldiers presently serving in SW Asia. It increases the difficulty of the task that the Coalition is carrying. It makes more intractible those who already oppose us. And those prison guards who engaged in such behavior and those leaders in charge of those guards must be dealt with.

However, however the larger message being lost in the noise surrounding this incident is that democracy works.

As terrible as this situation is, such a public vetting of the process and the individuals involved is something which would not happen under the best of circumstances even in the most open of Arab nations, much less under Hussein where this kind of thing would be a minor issue.

Does this excuse what happened? No. But especially for Iraq this empiracally demonstrates that democracy in an open society functions, even if it might have taken a year to bear fruit. This is the lesson which we should come away with after the dust has settled and people have met with whatever justice is served.

Totem
#2 May 07 2004 at 11:02 PM Rating: Good
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However, however the larger message being lost in the noise surrounding this incident is that democracy works.
That may be the message. The message may be "the boys look out for themselves". We really won't know until people are actually being punished whether democracy works or if democracy lets you get off with a couple scapegoats.
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#3 May 07 2004 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
The first mistake was holding them in that place.

It's infamous, that place should be burned down, not used to store our captives.

#4 May 07 2004 at 11:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Perhaps, Jophiel, accountability is certainly important, but even if the soldiers receive little or no punishment if found guilty, the very fact that the press is holding the administration's feet to the fire on this situation is something to be emulated, especially if you are an Iraqi desiring a government that responds to public sentiment.

If the situation had not come to light then nothing good could have come from this. As it is, both nations can grow from this, despite the despicable behavior of those National Guardsmen. We will tighten up our standards of conduct, examine the consequences of going into war more closely next time, and Iraq gets a demonstration of why a society functions well when openness and accountability are built into the system.

Totem
#5 May 07 2004 at 11:25 PM Rating: Good
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And Skeet, you have a valid point as well, since the stigma associated with that prison may well have tainted anything to do with it's use regardless what occured when those pictures were taken.

Like Russians who connect the building the KGB resided in with atrocities even after democracy was embraced, so this particular building may be fixed in the mind of the average Iraqi citizen.

Totem
#6 May 08 2004 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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It's a fuc[b][/b]king disgrace. There's nothing good about it. There's no bloody silver lining this time, we acted exactly as what we tell the world we fight against. Who are you trying to convince?
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#7 May 08 2004 at 2:17 AM Rating: Good
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*Ahem*
Crimes Against Humanity
War Crimes

They may be Americans but they should still be tried, despite our country openly stating we are not playing by the (Geneva convention) rules.
#8 May 08 2004 at 2:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree Gitslayer, but if we tried everyone that has evidence against them wouldnt we be going against the current American way?
#9 May 08 2004 at 2:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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I disagree, Smash. While what happened is horrible, this will have the very effect in the military I described. They will tighten their act up, the government and the people will be more careful the next time we consider war, and hopefully the Iraqis will see that an open access press free from governmental reprisals is an effective watchdog.

I'm quite surprised you can't see this.

Totem
#10 May 08 2004 at 3:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem, you are right actually.

However, it would take a relatively high intelligence to appreciate your point in a situation where you live surrounded by anti-American propoganda. I don't think there will be many Abdul's in Iraq arguing this point.

It is an absolute disgrace, and has completely undermined any attempts to win the hearts and minds of Iraqi people. What stupid ******* savages those vile pieces of **** are.
#11 May 08 2004 at 3:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Pat, you sound surprised.

/wry grin

Totem
#12 May 08 2004 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, you know, given infinite time, a thousand monkeys with typewriters would eventually write the complete works of Shakespeare etc etc.

With your post count you have to get the odd post right, just by the law of averages. DUH!
#13 May 08 2004 at 4:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I suppose there is that...

But still! I got one right! Woo-hoo! Go me!

Totem
#14 May 08 2004 at 8:55 AM Rating: Decent
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You guys have to be kidding!! This is not just some isolated incident that will be dealt with, then gradually fade from memory. In the eyes of the average Iraqi this is just America doing what Saddam used to do to them.

And how will they know about your grandiose democratic actions that somehow put a positive spin on those evil actions? Bah humbug, the gate is open and the horse has bolted.

If America had any remaining credibility with the *antis* of the world it is well and truly destroyed now. You will never recover from this. Those photographs will live forever.
#15 May 08 2004 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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And last I heard they are punishing alot of people, from Privates to Generals. I think the list was leaked...along with the

Secret//NoForn

Classification. How nice.
#16 May 08 2004 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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Dissemination of classifed material? Democracy in action!

Totem
#17 May 10 2004 at 2:30 AM Rating: Good
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While I agree that the actions taken were deplorable. I don't think you're getting the point of the post.


Bluie wrote:
You guys have to be kidding!! This is not just some isolated incident that will be dealt with, then gradually fade from memory. In the eyes of the average Iraqi this is just America doing what Saddam used to do to them.


Yes. It will. You may wish it wouldn't, but it will. The whole point of the OP was to show how diametrically different we are from political systems like that which ruled Iraq before we came along. Those responsible are being prosecuted. Under Saddam, the actions (and much worse!) could and did happen. The overwhelming difference that will be seen is that while "people" still do deplorable things, the "system" we operate under does not allow those things to go unpunished.

Quote:
And how will they know about your grandiose democratic actions that somehow put a positive spin on those evil actions? Bah humbug, the gate is open and the horse has bolted.


Who's "you", and "they"? That's the point. We are a society of individuals. That means that sometimes, individuals and even groups of individuals will do things that the whole find deplorable. Um... That's the point. We are not all like that. We don't condone that. And we wont put up with that. It's not about positive spin. It's about showing how a system works. It's about showing in a very clear way that in a democracy, the will of the people as a whole matters, not just the will of the leadership.


Quote:
If America had any remaining credibility with the *antis* of the world it is well and truly destroyed now. You will never recover from this. Those photographs will live forever.



Again. You lump the entire nation together in one group, as though the average Iraqi is too dumb to understand that people are infividuals and don't always do what they are supposed to do. Heck. The biggest difference the Iraqi's will see is that their complaints and their protests about this issue *are* getting results and *are* being heard. Heck. The very fact that they are vocally decrying this shows that they understand in a very fundamental way the difference between us and Saddam. No one talked about the torture that went on under Saddam's rule for fear that they'd just be next. Clearly, they don't have that same fear today. If you don't think that change is significant, then you really don't understand the situation in Iraq at all.


Does this hurt our goals in Iraq? Certainly. But it does no good to just sit back and decry something. What exactly should the US government be doing *right now* that's different then what they are doing? A problem was found. They are addressing it and punishing those responsible.


We don't screen military personnel like we screen penal officers and police officers. We don't do that because within the US we have a very strong political opposition to using military forces as police or prison guards. This sort of thing was bound to happen. It would have been nice if someone had thought of that beforehand, but given the huge amount of other stuff going on (like trying to maintain order in the country in the first place in the midst of people blamining you evertime a US soldier gets killed), I'm not surprised that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners got a lower priority. I don't recall Smash once posting that no matter what else happens, we'd darn well better make sure that our personnel assigned to be prison guards in Iraq are properly trained and screened for the job. I recall a whole ton of posts about numbers of US troops in country, and numbers of casualties, and other military and political issues in Iraq.


We'll see what happens. I honestly think that this wont be as big a deal as many of you are making it out to be. There'll be a bunch of people court marshalled, and a punch of people going to prison. That's justice.
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#18 May 10 2004 at 4:59 AM Rating: Decent
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The more I read about this, the more I think that this sort of behaviour may be a matter of policy, and not just a few errant individuals. Originally people scoffed about tales of abuse coming from Guantanamo. Now I am not so sure, seems to me that this may be how PoWs are softened up so that they will talk.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1104009,00.html

Here is the rub. The original justification for war was over WMDs, which have not materialised, as we know. This has led to a change of position by Tony Blair and GWB, that it doesn't matter that WMDs were not found, the justification of the war is now that the Saddam regime was evil, and the war could be justified on humanitarian grounds. Unfortunately, this latest episode looks like one evil regime has been replaced by another.

It is a massively significant moment in this war. The coalition has shot itself in the foot. A complete political disaster. But hey, we get to discuss how disgraceful it is. Yay democracy!
#19 May 10 2004 at 5:07 AM Rating: Good
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Interestingly, on this side of the pond at least, the political fallout from the difficulties and problems stemming from the Iraq war have not materialized. It would appear that for US citizens that we were tired of Saddam yanking our chain every six months or so and if WMDs or democracy was the excuse to get rid of him, well, so be it. And if Iraq manages to figure out that democracy is a good deal, then all the better.

But it seems that we are not wringing our hands about what has transpired and for the present, are willing to stay the course, particularly when seen from the standpoint of June 30 being our departure date.

Totem
#20 May 10 2004 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
Its fairly easy to see most of the American populace was led to believe that Saddam and his countrymen were responsible for 9/11 and as such feel no remorse for the actions of our servicemen in treating these perpatrators.
#21 May 10 2004 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Interestingly, on this side of the pond at least, the political fallout from the difficulties and problems stemming from the Iraq war have not materialized.


Put the crack pipe down boy.
#22 May 10 2004 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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Looky.

http://www.weirdlinks.com/naked-iraqi-prisoners.htm
#23 May 10 2004 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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But it seems that we are not wringing our hands about what has transpired and for the present, are willing to stay the course, particularly when seen from the standpoint of June 30 being our departure date.

Imagine that, the most selfish arrogant ego-centric nation on earth isn't appaled at it's own atrocites.

How uussual. The good thing about Democracy is that you can bethe last civiized place on Earth where owning slaves is legal, kill nearly all of your indigenous population in a ruthless machine like way including using biological weapons, round up your citizens who look like the people you are fighting and put them in camps, and torture the people you're supposedly liberating...

and still ******* all around about how enlightened and wonderfull Democracy is. Look how well it's worked in the US!!

You apologists making excuses and ludicrous rationalizations about this being a "good thing" long term are fuc[/b]king pathetic.

I guess is was a good thing Saddam gassed the Kurds, right? It caused him to get rid of the WMD aftward...

That's the argument you dumb motherfuc[b]
kers are making.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#24 May 12 2004 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Hey, don't kill the messenger, Git and Smash. All I'm telling you is the result of poll after poll showing that Bush's numbers haven't really taken a hit regardless of what has happened over in Iraq. Moreover, Americans, by and large, still believe that it was necessary to remove Hussein regardless of any other aspect to the war.

Just because you may not agree with those sentiments doesn't mean that it isn't the norm for John Q. Public.

Totem
#25 May 12 2004 at 11:19 AM Rating: Good
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Bush approval ratings hit a new low in the polls
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#26 May 12 2004 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the realities of this war are just beginning to sink in for a lot of people.
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