While I agree that the actions taken were deplorable. I don't think you're getting the point of the post.
Bluie wrote:
You guys have to be kidding!! This is not just some isolated incident that will be dealt with, then gradually fade from memory. In the eyes of the average Iraqi this is just America doing what Saddam used to do to them.
Yes. It will. You may wish it wouldn't, but it will. The whole point of the OP was to show how diametrically different we are from political systems like that which ruled Iraq before we came along. Those responsible are being prosecuted. Under Saddam, the actions (and much worse!) could and did happen. The overwhelming difference that will be seen is that while "people" still do deplorable things, the "system" we operate under does not allow those things to go unpunished.
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And how will they know about your grandiose democratic actions that somehow put a positive spin on those evil actions? Bah humbug, the gate is open and the horse has bolted.
Who's "you", and "they"? That's the point. We are a society of individuals. That means that sometimes, individuals and even groups of individuals will do things that the whole find deplorable. Um... That's the point. We are not all like that. We don't condone that. And we wont put up with that. It's not about positive spin. It's about showing how a system works. It's about showing in a very clear way that in a democracy, the will of the people as a whole matters, not just the will of the leadership.
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If America had any remaining credibility with the *antis* of the world it is well and truly destroyed now. You will never recover from this. Those photographs will live forever.
Again. You lump the entire nation together in one group, as though the average Iraqi is too dumb to understand that people are infividuals and don't always do what they are supposed to do. Heck. The biggest difference the Iraqi's will see is that their complaints and their protests about this issue *are* getting results and *are* being heard. Heck. The very fact that they are vocally decrying this shows that they understand in a very fundamental way the difference between us and Saddam. No one talked about the torture that went on under Saddam's rule for fear that they'd just be next. Clearly, they don't have that same fear today. If you don't think that change is significant, then you really don't understand the situation in Iraq at all.
Does this hurt our goals in Iraq? Certainly. But it does no good to just sit back and decry something. What exactly should the US government be doing *right now* that's different then what they are doing? A problem was found. They are addressing it and punishing those responsible.
We don't screen military personnel like we screen penal officers and police officers. We don't do that because within the US we have a very strong political opposition to using military forces as police or prison guards. This sort of thing was bound to happen. It would have been nice if someone had thought of that beforehand, but given the huge amount of other stuff going on (like trying to maintain order in the country in the first place in the midst of people blamining you evertime a US soldier gets killed), I'm not surprised that the treatment of Iraqi prisoners got a lower priority. I don't recall Smash once posting that no matter what else happens, we'd darn well better make sure that our personnel assigned to be prison guards in Iraq are properly trained and screened for the job. I recall a whole ton of posts about numbers of US troops in country, and numbers of casualties, and other military and political issues in Iraq.
We'll see what happens. I honestly think that this wont be as big a deal as many of you are making it out to be. There'll be a bunch of people court marshalled, and a punch of people going to prison. That's justice.