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#52 Apr 04 2004 at 10:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah. You're right. I can't imagine why I might think you'd use the phrase to imply that the mission wasn't really accomplished, and that the "accomplishment" wasn't really that great anyway. Seems like I nailed you perfectly on your Somalia comparison to me...

It just hit me. You really are that slow.

There isn't a comparison to Somalia because no one landed on aircraft carrier, or held a press confrence, or leaked a memeo or whatever...

That victory was at hand and our mission in Somalia, which again was to aleviate the massive starvation and suffering of children was accomplished.

Seems like you pulled Somalia out of your *** because you had to find a failure on a simmilar scale during a Democratic administration....

Why again?

Because your guy has ****** up so astonishingly badly that the only way you can possibly try to defend him is to compare him to a simmilar failure while a Democrat was in office?

COULD THERE BE ANY MORE CLEAR EVIDENCE OF YOU PATHETIC PARTISAN HACKERY???

Your instant response to a failure by this administration is to compare it to one by a previous administration. One that's not even vaguely analgous. You may as well have compared it to the Bunker Hill Massacre.

You're pathetic.

You can't define what the military mission is in Iraq BECAUSE NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IT IS. Clear mission?

It clearly wasn't to remove Saddam from power or we'd have left. It cleary isn't to transfer power to the Iraqi's or we'd be leaving in June. The mission in Iraq now can only be seen as:

Occupying the country indefinately while defending against constant armed resistance

A recipe for deaths of Americans.

Just how many people have to die and be maimed for life before you'll be able to for once in your ******* life look past partisan poltics and call this war what it is:

A personal unilateral wet dream of a tiny minority of people in the Defense Department who believed we'd be welcomed as liberators.

There's no strategic reason for it. There was no pressing need to invade. There was money for people freindly to the administration and there was revenge for ten years of anti-american rhetoric. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfawitz et all have had a ***** to invade Iraq since they came into office.

That's not a secret. I've been saying it for years, and people far more reputable than I have too.

Now, people are dead because of it.

Tell me why they had to die. Tell me the reason thousands of kids who aren't old enough to buy a beer have to live the rest of their lives short an arm or a leg.

Why?
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#53 Apr 05 2004 at 2:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Holy Moronic posters Batman!

Um... Smash? Did you *read* the quote you posted?


Smasharoo wrote:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_19

FALLUJAH, Iraq - In a scene reminiscent of Somalia, frenzied crowds dragged the burned, mutilated bodies of four American contractors through the streets of a town west of Baghdad on Wednesday and strung two of them up from a bridge after rebels ambushed their SUVs

Mission Accomplished.


Read it. Now read it again. See the line: "In a scene reminiscient of Somalia..."

That's where the comparison to Somalia was Smash. What the hell did you think I was talking about?


Look. If you're going to argue something, at least have a freaking clue what the heck you started the topic about. Honestly Smash. I've been trying for the last 3 posts to figure out why the heck you were trying to say that your statement "mission accomplished" was not a statement about how Iraq had supposedly devolved to a situation reminiscient of the disaster in Somalia, only to finally realize that you apparently didn't bother to read the quote you posted when you started the topic.


Ok. So you are now saying that your two word response "Mission accomplished" in fact had *nothing* to do with the quote you made before the statement. And anyone who made the connection between quote and your statement right after the quote is "slow". Got it...


I'm literally falling off my chair laughing about this one Smash. This is one for the record books...
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#54 Apr 05 2004 at 2:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ok. Now that I've finished laughing about your apparent insistence that your post about the quote had nothing to do with the quote, I'll get back on topic.


You were alledgely in the military Smash. Does any military operation have just one phase with one goal?

Goal one: Take over Iraq via military force. Done.

Goal two: Find and detain/kill the leadership of the original Iraqi regime. Done and done.

Goal three: Maintain order and as much stability as possible until a new Iraqi government can be put in place. Still in progress.


See how that works? You set a goal and you achieve it. Then you move to the next goal. That's how rational people solve problems Smash. That's what the current administration is doing. You can't get to goal 3 without completeing goals one and two first.

Are you really that dense as to think that this final bit will be easy? Or that it will be bloodless? Why do you think that the violence has stepped up recently? Random chance? Nope. It's because we're getting close to achieving that third goal, and some folks desperately don't want us to.


Look. I have no idea what the long term goal is once a government has been established in Iraq. Will we continue to have a military presense there? I think that's largely going to depend on the new government. If they want us there, we'll likely stay. If they don't, we'll leave. What are you saying we should do? Just abandon them now? Leave when we are a few months away from success?

Dunno Smash. It really sounds more to me like you desperately want the US to fail here purely so you can blame the current US administration on the failure. But I'm partisan? Sheesh! Yes. Things are not all roses and niceness in Iraq. But we have made huge progress and we are still making progress. I'm willing to give the current plan at least a shot at success. You are condemning it based on what *might* happen. Why don't we wait until after June and see what happens...
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#55 Apr 05 2004 at 4:00 AM Rating: Default
gbaji wrote:
See how that works? You set a goal and you achieve it. Then you move to the next goal. That's how rational people solve problems.
While I agree on this quote to 100% it does tragically no longer reflect whats going on in Iraq.

The US military (and government) doesn't set goals any longer - it simply reacts. In Iraq the US gets dictated their current tactic and agenda by the enemy each day a bit more.

There's no way to win a war if you fight it the way someone else enforces you to. Take a look at history facts - and try to remember that not only the US fought wars ;-)

Edited, Mon Apr 5 04:59:22 2004 by Leiany
#56 Apr 05 2004 at 4:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think you are mixing up "goals" (why are we here?), with "actions" (what are we doing today?).


When setting a goal, it needs to be reasonably obtainable, clear, and something that benefits you in some way.

How you go about achieving that goal can change from day to day. I don't think that "reacting" to a changing situation is bad in any way. Quite the opposite. I'd be really concerned if our military didn't react to things going on around them.


A football team may have a goal of winning the game (getting the most points on the board in 1 hour of play). How exactly they achieve that goal can change dramatically during the course of the game. They may also have a longer term goal of going to the playoffs. That may require completely different actions. Each game strategy will need to vary based on the team they are playing. Further, they may set a goal of getting to the Superbowl. Again. Different strategies for the playoffs. Maybe you hold back your starters a bit so they are fresh on that championship game? Maybe you go all out to get home field advantage. Tons of variables are involved, and you'd better adjust your play to the situation. Finally, you might set a goal of winning the Superbowl. Once again, you'll vary your strategies as you go along based on the other team, and what you've done while achieving those earlier goals.


No one would suggest that if a coach changes the plays during a game that he no longer wants to win. So why assume that reacting to military situations means that your military has no plan to win. It means that we're being flexible enough to allow us to ovecome obstacles between us and our goals. Nothing more...
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#57 Apr 05 2004 at 4:26 AM Rating: Default
gbaji wrote:
When setting a goal, it needs to be reasonably obtainable, clear, and something that benefits you in some way.
you just outed yourself as the narrow-minded @$$hole you sound like. smash is right about you, no wonder you don't saw any goals achieved in somalia.



#58 Apr 05 2004 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
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So where does "finding and destroying WMD" fit in our list of objectives in Iraq? Or is that not an issue anymore? "Never mind, apparently all our info was wrong, but since we've already occupied the country..."
#59 Apr 05 2004 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Will we continue to have a military presense there? I think that's largely going to depend on the new government. If they want us there, we'll likely stay. If they don't, we'll leave
Do you honestly believe that?

Or, better put, do you honestly believe we'll let Iraq set up a government that doesn't want US forces on its soil?
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#60 Apr 05 2004 at 2:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Leiany wrote:
Quote:
When setting a goal, it needs to be reasonably obtainable, clear, and something that benefits you in some way.
you just outed yourself as the narrow-minded @$$hole you sound like. smash is right about you, no wonder you don't saw any goals achieved in somalia.



Did the axis of the universe shift in the last 24 hours?

Put the rhetoric aside. I'm talking about goals here. Nothing specific. Just a broad definition. Are you telling me that you set goals for your self that are of no benefit to you at all? Isn't that kind of silly?

By extension, are you suggesting that our government, which we vote into office, and which we pay for in taxes should set goals that don't benefit anyone in the US in any way?

I know this may come as a surprise to you, but we do things like "feed the hungry" because it benefits us as a nation to do things like that. It looks good on the PR sheet, and it makes people happy. I never said that "benefit" had to be monetary or political. Feeling good about yourself is also something that benefits you, and can also be a valid goal.


I would like to add though that we failed pretty miserably at getting any significant amount of food to the hungry in Somalia. I don't say we didn't achieve goals in Somalia because feeding hungry people isn't a legitimate goal. I said it because we actually did fail at feeding the hungry in Somalia. There's really nothing complicated about it. We just failed.



Joph. Do you really think anyone wants to keep US soldiers in Iraq for a minute longer then we have to? Our "goal" is not to keep soldiers anywhere. Our goals include a stable government in Iraq that will be friendly with us, and perhaps aid us in stabilizing the rest of the region (and sell us oil for cheap! ;) ). I'm quite certain that if we can do that without using US military forces, we'll take that option.


It's also a matter of what you consider "military presense". We've had military bases in Germany since the end of WW2. Does that mean that our soldiers were walking around Germany playing bully? The world really is made up of shades of grey. There's a huge range between "no military" and "miltary control" within a nation. I'm hardly someone setting policy, but I'd be surprised if we don't end up somewhere much closer to the "no military" side of the range within the next year.

Edited, Mon Apr 5 15:48:13 2004 by gbaji
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#61 Apr 05 2004 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I meant bases and the like. You make it sound as if the Iraqi government went on July 1 and said "Ok, now scram" we'd happily pack up our bags and take every trace of ourselves out of the country. I'm saying there's no chance we'd allow a government to be set up that wasn't going to allow us military access and bases in the region.

Note you said "military presence". In my mind, if you have some soldiers, tanks, a couple helicopters, etc there you have a military presence. Military control or martial law is, of course, a different matter completely.
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#62 Apr 05 2004 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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I have a cousin who served as a captain in the special operations division in both Afghanistan and Iraq, hence seeing pictures like this really do hit close to home. Each day I pray for our service men/women to come home safely to their loved ones and families. It is a very sad fact that this type of brutality will continue.

We must not forget that Iraq has seen 30 years of brutal dictatorship. This dictatorship was not just one man, but rather ingrained into a very powerful sub-culture. Ruthlessness was rewarded with cars, homes, and hefty government paychecks. Brutality lead to advancement and ethics to your fellow Iraqi did not exist. The regime fell but the society did not. These people are still out there, and believe that brutality is still the most effective way to invoke change and establish control.

There still is a glimmer of hope. Although not widely reported by the press many of the Muslim clerics in Fallujah denounced the attacks, stating that it was an affront against Islam to mutilate a corpse. Previously these voices were easily silenced. Iraq needs to go through a social reformation and this will not be an easy or immediate process for them. Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd will need to learn how to live in peace with one another. Pulling out now would most likely lead to civil war and genocide.

If one remembers correctly the Kurdish army was not allowed to advance into the Sunni triangle for this precise reason.
#63 Apr 05 2004 at 3:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Certainly. My response was to Smash, who was making it sound like we'd have military forces in country in a Vietnam type situation, even after this Summer.

I think it'll be much closer to what we had in Germany, then Vietnam. But then Smash was too young to protest Vietnam, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this bothers him, so he's just hoping for something similar to happen so he can pull out his parents "make love not war" banners and start marching.
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#64 Apr 05 2004 at 6:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Certainly. My response was to Smash, who was making it sound like we'd have military forces in country in a Vietnam type situation, even after this Summer.

Of course we will. Have you bothered to look at any of the planning for post transition Iraq and where our troops will be stationed?

Quote:

I think it'll be much closer to what we had in Germany, then Vietnam.

Yeah, that's insane. Nice sentiment, but insane.

Quote:

But then Smash was too young to protest Vietnam, and I have a sneaking suspicion that this bothers him, so he's just hoping for something similar to happen so he can pull out his parents "make love not war" banners and start marching.

I've been in places where the average person on the street would want me dead if they knew I were American Military.

Have you?

I've been shot at. I've seen people get shot. I've been involved in a decision making process that ends with other human beings loosing their lives.

Have you?

I'd like nothing more than for all violence to end in Iraq and for the Iraqi people to welcome us with open arms.

In all seriousness. I have no desire to see US troops die. I have no desire to see the US fail at anything.

That's more conservative propaganda you've dutifully lapped up that liberals want to see this war fail. That we want America to fail.

That couldn't be farther from the truth. The facts are what they are.

The situation in Iraq is no more stable today than it was before Saddam was captured. It's no more stable today than it was the day Baghdad was taken.

That's not me wishing it to be so. The troops dying every day aren't in my imagination. The mobs of civilians cheering the dragging of US bodies through the streets aren't a hallucination I had.

You seem to see objective observations about this war as anti-american and with an objective in mind. You're wrong.

I don't know what the answer is in Iraq at this point. To be honest it's probably to send *MORE* troops there. But I've been saying that since the 4th ID first outran it's supply about a year ago. Before the wat started I commented that the warplanners were in love with air power and special ops and that we wouldn't have enough troops on the gound.

I still think that. If you put me in charge of Iraq tommorow with power to do whatever I wanted, I'd tripple the amount of troops on the ground and accelerate the training of Iraqi security forces with an eye towards a US exit by 2006.

I think that's the best we can do at this point.

That doesn't mean I think it was a good idea to get us to that point.

"We shouldn't be there" isn't the same as "We should leave now".

I've never said that, I don't believe that, and I've never implied it. I have said we'd have been better off with UN troops there in the place of US troops. If you could replace all of the US troops with UN troops I'd probably go that route.

None of that matters, however, because you aren't going to argue for against anything based on the facts, you're just going to color me as an anti-war activist and argue against Martin Sheen because it's far to difficult to argue against me.

You're a classic armchair General. Never had the balls to put yourself in harms way buy gung ho as hell about other people risking their lives. Just like your leader.
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#65 Apr 05 2004 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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Ah... Ok. So you basically agree with me on every aspect of Iraq with the exception that I don't feel the need to post a body count to this forum once a week, complete with color comentrary presented in a way that appears critical of the process.

Got it. Why didn't you say that from the beginning? It would have prevented a lot of unecessary posting...

Edited, Mon Apr 5 20:46:14 2004 by gbaji
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#66 Apr 05 2004 at 7:54 PM Rating: Default
gbaji wrote:
I don't say we didn't achieve goals in Somalia

Just to prove you to be the lying moron who perfectly fits as one of Bushs dedicated followers - you had!
gbaji wrote:

Ok... So it took toppling a nation's leadership and moving said nation to the bring of democracy to get the same sort of action that Clinton brought us in Somalia while accomplishing... nothing...

You better stick to the EQ forum to play the expert on anything

Edited, Mon Apr 5 20:58:36 2004 by Leiany
#67 Apr 05 2004 at 9:11 PM Rating: Good
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Leiany wrote:
Quote:
I don't say we didn't achieve goals in Somalia

Just to prove you to be the lying moron who perfectly fits as one of Bushs dedicated followers - you had!


Leiany wrote:
Quote:

Ok... So it took toppling a nation's leadership and moving said nation to the bring of democracy to get the same sort of action that Clinton brought us in Somalia while accomplishing... nothing...

You better stick to the EQ forum to play the expert on anything


Um... Look. It's bad enough you're going to take my statement out of context, but to deliberately quote only half a sentence? Let's look at what I actually said:

gbaji wrote:
I don't say we didn't achieve goals in Somalia because feeding hungry people isn't a legitimate goal. I said it because we actually did fail at feeding the hungry in Somalia. There's really nothing complicated about it. We just failed.



There is nothing at all contradictory in my statements. I said that Somalia was a disaster that achieved nothing at the cost of US soldier's lives. You claimed that my statement that we achieved "nothing" was because we didn't define "feeding the hungry" as a goal. I responded by saying that "feeding the hungry" was indeed our goal. We just failed at achieving it.

What's not to understand? We went to Somalia to feed the hungry. It turned out the the warlords were confiscating the food and selling it for weapons. We decided to take some half-assed measures to "deal with" those warlords. All we accomplished was to **** of a bunch of Somalis and get some Rangers killed. Then we left. End result was that we fed very few hungry people, but managed to turn a group of people who otherwise had no opinions of us into enemies. "Mission accomplished" indeed...


My point was to contrast the two. In Somalia, we did not accomplish any of our goals, while pissing people off and getting US citizens bodies drug through the streets. In Iraq, we've toppled a regime, captured or killed the primary leadership of that regime, and are on the brink of establishing a new government for the Iraqi people. And yes, the cost of accomplishing all of that has been a death toll of 610, including some US citizens drug through the streets. Dunno. Seemed like a perfectly obvious contrast to make at the time. Actually seemed like a no-brainer to me...

Edited, Mon Apr 5 22:15:55 2004 by gbaji

Edited, Mon Apr 5 22:16:33 2004 by gbaji
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#68 Apr 06 2004 at 2:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Ah... Ok. So you basically agree with me on every aspect of Iraq with the exception that I don't feel the need to post a body count to this forum once a week, complete with color comentrary presented in a way that appears critical of the process.

Got it. Why didn't you say that from the beginning? It would have prevented a lot of unecessary posting

You agree it was an abysmal failure that unnessicarily cost the lives of US troops?

That it was poorly planned?

That it was driven by simple greed and petty vegance?

That it pulled resources away from the fight with Al Queda?

Just want to be clear. We're in agreement, right?

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#69 Apr 06 2004 at 5:09 AM Rating: Default
*ROFL* Now comes the real funny part:
gbaji wrote:
All we accomplished was to **** of a bunch of Somalis and get some Rangers killed. Then we left. End result was that we fed very few hungry people, but managed to turn a group of people who otherwise had no opinions of us into enemies.

Hm....so regarding Iraq Bush pissed off the UN and part of the NATO and got some 100 people killed. And the soldiers kept staying and staying and staying....

As the world did NOT ask Bush to topple the regime in Iraq (with the small side effects of flattening half of Bagdad, killing and injuring 100ds of civilians and even some western journalists) I wonder what the accomplishment was regarding the history book....
#70 Apr 06 2004 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
In Iraq, we've toppled a regime, captured or killed the primary leadership of that regime, and are on the brink of establishing a new government for the Iraqi people.


I'm doubtful of the last part of that one. Iraq has a long way to go before it can start governing itself to any effect. An entire town was just taken over by a renegade militia; the Iraqi police are negotiating to regain their stations. We may have toppled a regime and disposed of the leaders, but we replaced that with a power vacuum that we, the great and powerful US Military, can't even fill. There is no way Iraq will be able to secure and police itself without heavy outside military influence, in which case it's still an occupation. That means more casualties, and it looks like things are getting worse now instead of better. 700 dead by May, 1000 this summer. Will we lose 2,000 by the start of next year? Will we get shot in the as[b][/b]s as we pull out?
#71 Apr 06 2004 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Again Deb. You're guessing what will happen. You don't know.

The situation in Iraq differs from that in Vietnam by one very important aspect: There is no hugely popular leader in Iraq that's in opposition to us. What we're seeing right now, is some pretty organized factions using guerilla style tactics to attempt to impede or manipulate the government process in Iraq. They're able to garner support from the populace via both fear of the "other factions", and fear the the promises of an Iraqi governmen from the US are lies.

I think that once a government is established, we'll start to see this type of action die down. That's, of course, dependant on the makeup and actions of the new government, but when the "people" of Iraq realize that the new regime will not consist of a wave of gestapo style arrests and suppression of "their faction", support for the insurgents will fade.

Will there continue to be problems? Certainly. However, the general populace will view the insurgents as the "bad guys", instead of the liberators of "their side". The factioning in Iraq has not yet gotten to the polarization point (and hopefully wont before June). As long as the general populace has not yet broken into faction fighting before the new government takes power, the trend we're seeing will reverse itself.


And Smash. I agreed with you that we should have sent a larger contingent to police Iraq after the war. I also agree that it would have been better to have had the UN do this instead of us. How you move from those very sensible critisisms to the whining in your next post is beyond me. There's a difference between: "They should have used more troops for the occupation" and "They're incompetant and have cost US soldier's lives". I also don't necessarily agree with the idea that this takes away from resources that could be used against Al-queda. New flash Smash. We've already taken afghanistan. We need inteligence operatives, not miltary personnel. We're not taking anything away from that. However, if we want to really impress upon governments like Syria and Sudan just how serious we are about holding nations responsible for "harboring terrorists" (I think that's how it was put), then the military action in Iraq serves as a very nice, and not terribly subtle message that will probably accomplish a hell of a lot more in that region then years of "talks".
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#72 Apr 06 2004 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Again Deb. You're guessing what will happen. You don't know.


Aye, that's true. I don't know what will happen. I'm just wondering what crystal ball you're looking into, that shows the extremist clerics and their radical groups suddenly turning over and making peace when this government comes into power.

Quote:
That's, of course, dependant on the makeup and actions of the new government, but when the "people" of Iraq realize that the new regime will not consist of a wave of gestapo style arrests and suppression of "their faction", support for the insurgents will fade.


What about when they realize their new regime is a hand-picked US puppet government? Oops, sorry, didn't mean to jump the gun again. Who knows who will have the real power this summer?

I had more to say, but it's lunch time and I'm beginning to digest my own intestines. I'll finish up my Smash-inspired pseudo-democratic ramblings later.
#73 Apr 06 2004 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Heh. Just took a lunch break myself.

Debalic wrote:
Aye, that's true. I don't know what will happen. I'm just wondering what crystal ball you're looking into, that shows the extremist clerics and their radical groups suddenly turning over and making peace when this government comes into power.


Sure. It'll get worse before it gets better. That's for sure. However, it's not the small number of extremist clerics and their followers that are the threat *after* a new government is in place. They are a threat *before* that happens. The reason they've been stepping up attacks is because each faction fears that the other(s) will have the power when the dust settles, so they figure if they can stop the process, they can change the battlefield into one they know how to fight.

You've got to understand the structure of these factions. There are large groups of people who are part of one group or another (most broadly, Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd). The bulk of those groups are regular people who just want to get on with their lives. However, there is a very real fear from them that if one of the other factions gains complete power, that they as a group will be persecuted under the new regime.

This is where the extremists come in. They feed this fear. They pre-empt this fear by staging attacks designed to make both their own people and the other factions worry about the future. They know that if they can polarise the bulk of these factions into open warfare, that any "shared power" solution will fail. That's their strategy. That's what the attacks are about. Why you'll see crowds cheering is simply the result of fear tactics at work. This is not new. Crowds cheered in Germany in the 30s, not because things were great, but because the finger was pointed at someone else. Leaders cheered when Saddam systematically eliminated his opponents when he took power, not because they loved Saddam, but because they were terrified that if they didn't, that they'd be put on "the list" of people to be eliminated.

This is how fear tactics works. It's very easy to get otherwise moderate people to put on the appearance of radicalism. No one wants to look like they are on the other side when bombs and guns are going off. It's just that simple.

Quote:
What about when they realize their new regime is a hand-picked US puppet government? Oops, sorry, didn't mean to jump the gun again. Who knows who will have the real power this summer?



You're right. We don't know. However, overwhelmingly, the bulk of the population in Iraq is much more fearful of one of the other factions in Iraq gaining full power then they are of the US government. Yes. Despite all the rhetoric to the contrary, that's the truth. They are looking to the US to be the impartial party. Surprised by that? Don't be. The fear of the "US occupation" is largely one brought up by US citizens afraid of the power being exerted by their own government (and a general distaste for such things, which is healthy actually). However, in this case, as long as the government isn't polarized along faction lines, the bulk of the population will be very happy with it.

Long term, we need to avoid too much interference with this government. But in the short term, it really isn't that much of a problem. Remember, you're dealing with a nation of people who've lived under a pretty brutal power for the last 30ish years. The concept of a "puppet government", while it plays well on American TV, is way down on the list of concerns to the Iraqi's in general. What does that mean? Trade with the US? Is that a bad thing? The rebuilding of their infrastructure and industry? Is that a bad thing?

All that matters is that after the new government is in place, the bulk of the populace does not fear that their government will send the secret police around through their neighborhood and take them away for "questioning" in the middle of the night. Honestly! Any government that can promise that (and rebuilding) will be accepted by the people. Once that happens, the dynamic changes. Those clerics with their radical followers begin to be seen as the cause of problems, not the path to "protection for our faction". The bulk of the population, instead of looking at them as potential saviors, will see them as agitators who are just getting people killed. That's what will happen in July when the new government takes power.

Does that mean that the violence will stop? Not at all. But it will signal a turning point for Iraq. The people will view the violence differently, and that's a huge change. As long as the government can be reasonably effective at using the legal system to find and prosecute those radicals, they will retain popular support of the people. In time, you'll see the "people" of each faction literally turning in their own extremists (that'll take awhile though).


Sure. That's me looking through my crystal ball. I may be wrong. But that's my prediction. I'm willing to let the process continue and see what happens. At this point, we kinda don't have a choice anyway, so what's the point in whining about it?

Edited, Tue Apr 6 18:15:50 2004 by gbaji
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#74 Apr 06 2004 at 7:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Random Tangent:

Hans Blix, he of the now-irrelevant search for WMD, states that Iraq was better off with Saddam.
#75 Apr 06 2004 at 8:04 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with Hans Blix is that he's a man who does his calculations based on what the current status is "right now", with not even a tiny bit of trend analysis or forward looking thought on the matter.

Sure. "right now", Iraq is worse off then they were under Saddam's regime. Um... I'm fairly certain that in the winter of 1777, the US was worse off then we were under Brittish rule. I'm also pretty sure that in 1862, we were worse off then we were before starting the Civil War.

It's the long term view that's missing from pretty much everything he's every said. "Oh. I don't see any WMD right at this moment, so Iraq presents no threat...", "Well, the Iraqi people are worse off right now then they were before the war started". Ok. That's wonderful captain obvious, but not terribly helpful.

In 10 years, will the Iraqi people be better off then they were before we invaded? That's an entirely different issue.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#76 Apr 06 2004 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:

This is how fear tactics works. It's very easy to get otherwise moderate people to put on the appearance of radicalism. No one wants to look like they are on the other side when bombs and guns are going off. It's just that simple.


You sound like me talking about Bush's march to war.

Edited, Tue Apr 6 21:23:34 2004 by Meadros
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