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And... it's up the a$$ for Indians. Again.Follow

#27 Jan 07 2004 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Sure, but assimilation would go a long ways towards curing those ills. The continued insistance upon remaining as native as possible (excuse the pun) is akin to me wearing wooden shoes to work every day becuase I have reverence for the "old ways". There are better ways to do things. In general, Indians look to the past, not the future, and this is the singularly most limiting aspect about them. That, and a love for the fire water.

Totem
#28 Jan 07 2004 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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They're working on it. I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but Indian Higher Education is a recent movement, only about 30 years old. Indians are hauling themselves into a new world after years of clinging to resentment and old ways. I think there's a fair balance of old and new that makes for a culture can be respectful and observant of its past, while adjusting to the future.

I think it's the word "assimilation" that has such negative connotations and just rubs me the wrong way. It's reminds me of Latinos that want to marry whites so their children will be blue-eyed. That, of course, is(mostly)just the self-hate internal dialogue that one learns to fight as part of a social or ethnic minority.
#29 Jan 08 2004 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
Is this topic dead?

It seems that if you warped in time back when the mighty railroad was being built across the west and buffalo were slaughtered striping the indians of the food, shelter, and religion, there were people like talking about sending them to ND and slaughtering give me a break. Why do you try to rationalize crimes against humanity, that now are more subtle and benign (almost making culture extinct v.s no scholarship money)

I don't think native americans can be considered autonomous and should be considered a minority. They can not be classified as a separate government with means to tax, and distribute those funds to the their own people. Like one post said they were given the crappiest land. In my opinion that factor alone can cripple there means to thrive economically.

And check out the government once they saw how much casinos can make they changed laws so pratically any state can have a casinos also crippling another means that would make an indian reservation economically viable.

I feel no amount of reparation can justify what the settlers of America, our great nation, did to the native Americans and there perhaps even greater nation. Ask yourself this would be able to put a price on your childs life, priceless right is that less than or equal to any reparation made to native americans.

Can ignore me or rip up my grammar i don't care just wanted to put in my thoughts good topic
#30 Jan 08 2004 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
How long do "we" have to pay for crimes commited in the distant past? Hell, my grandparents moved here from Ireland, so my family wasn't even here, should I be responsible?

Everyone has the chance to make something of themselves in America. Even if you can't get a fancy scholarship, you can work your *** off and go to college, as many people have to do. The fact is, if you have the motivation, you can do it no matter what race you are. No one said it was going to be easy.



#31 Jan 08 2004 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking as a person who grew up near indian reserves and went to school with quite a few native americans.

"Good. **** EM"

I have never met a native american that wasent a piece of ****, not being racist I have just never met one who wasent a scumbag.
#32 Jan 08 2004 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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The reality is Indians can assimilate into modern American society and still retain their cultural heritage. What's that? Do I hear dissenters among our dear readers? If what I say is not empiracally true then why do Indians drive cars instead of horses? Why do they wear polyester instead of buckskin? Why do they operate casinos instead of... whatever Indians did with their spare time when they weren't scalping, getting into drunken brawls, and running away from John Wayne and the Lone Ranger.

The fact is they have assimilated what things they deemed convenient or desirable and chose to discard the rest. If cultural purity was what they were aiming for, then anything short of a life patterned after Indian society pre-European settlers is the only acceptable response.

In for a nickle, in for a dime.

If two hundred years from now blacks insist on living in ghettos because their ancestors did, it's their own choice, but don't blame it on me. And just because it was done in the past doesn't make it an intelligent choice. If the rez isn't working out for you, then it's time to leave and make something of yourself.

Let's face it. The myth of the "noble savage" is just that: a myth. There were no ecologically aware Native Americans, there were no Indians in tune with nature. They lived in one location for as long as the fauna and flora could support them and then they moved on (with the notable exception of the Pueblos). They ruined whatever land they resided on and then moved to fresh lands/enslavable enemy tribes.

The Indian reservation is an anachronism. An excuse to amount to nothing. And that's a goal anybody can aspire to.

Totem
#33 Jan 08 2004 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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As for the argument that they were here first, well, so what? What group of people who lost a war haven't been displaced, subjugated, killed off, enslaved, and hounded since the beginning of Time? It's the way things are. Deal with it.

If they could have held their own against European military, intellectual, medical, and economic supremacy then we wouldn't be having this conversation. As it is, they have gone the way of every other ethnic group/nation/class of people who lost a life or death battle. Commiserating and wishing for bygone days isn't going to improve things. Time to move on, Tonto.

Totem
#34 Jan 08 2004 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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The reality is Indians can assimilate into modern American society and still retain their cultural heritage. What's that? Do I hear dissenters among our dear readers?

Not me. That is why several have started leaving to get an education, and then returning to the rez to try to make it a viable place to live.

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They lived in one location for as long as the fauna and flora could support them and then they moved on (with the notable exception of the Pueblos).

Not only the Pueblos. The Lakota consider the Black Hills sacred, and have been there forever. One of few groups on or near their ancestral lands. They refuse to take Federal payment for it, and have for years.

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I have never met a native american that wasent a piece of sh*t, not being racist I have just never met one who wasent a scumbag.

A real shame. Not calling you a racist, but my experience with the handicapped is limited to a guy that zipped around my high school in an electric wheelchair grabbing crotches and asses. I have been exposed to the best of Indian society: Professors, cultural leaders, innovators. People that worked hard to get out of poverty and chose not to leave their communities but return and make them viable and pleasant. I suppose it's easier to understand as an immigrant, since you never quit feeling the pull of home, even if it was a crappy one.

#35 Jan 08 2004 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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A real shame. Not calling you a racist, but my experience with the handicapped is limited to a guy that zipped around my high school in an electric wheelchair grabbing crotches and asses.



Mmmmmm crotch and asses mmmmmmm...ohh ya, I don't really care what you think of the crippled community, because quite frankly the cripple community is just what you described, a bunch of self serving ******** who no one has the guts to tell them to stop, im not like that, and could care less if someone I never met thought that of me. Are you a bigot for thinking that, **** no.

Am I racists for thinking the vast majority of all Native americans are scum? Exactly, thats what racism is. God Bless America. ******* indians

#36 Jan 08 2004 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Message has high abuse count and will not be displayed.
#37 Jan 08 2004 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Bah forum broke again, my posts arnt showing up when I post them, don't know why im posting this. Probibly as an explanation for my double post if the two missing posts I posted show up at a later date.



post
#38 Jan 08 2004 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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They ruined whatever land they resided on and then moved to fresh lands/enslavable enemy tribes.
It's Indians like you who have ruined your own lands!! You'll not ruin mine!!

I don't know if I'd call the areas "ruined" rather than depleted. They sprung back in fairly short order, after all. Compare such to the "white man's" treatment of the American buffalo (still not recovered) and the passenger pigeon (extinct) and you get a better definition of ruined.

But, hey, you never know what might have been. If Europeans never came over and the Indians were left alone, there's no saying that right now they wouldn't have developed their own industrial revolution over the past couple hundred years, complete with deforestation, coal burning factories, strip mining and the rest of it.

Just for the joy of reading, the Straight Dope answers why the New World cultures never invented the wheel.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#39 Jan 08 2004 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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True, Jophiel. I was using the term ruined in the sense that enviromentalists use it when depleted would be a far morw accurate description.

Totem
#40 Jan 08 2004 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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But are you a bigot for saying that the majority of people behave like that when you observe it with your own eyes? @#%^ no.

Your experience, as much as you would wish it to, does not equal the sum of all experiences. Only to you. But I do understand why you would feel that way, given that you seem to have been exposed to some crappy Indians. Sucks that their behavior has been so awful that you can't even conceive of alternatives.
#41 Jan 08 2004 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ok so I hear everyones opinion and frankly I can't even tell you where I stand on the issue. One part of me says what happened to the Native Americans is not fair and has directly resulted in the poverty and substance abuse problems we see today. One part of me says for me to pay for it isn't fair, I didn't do it and I don't agree with what was done so why should I have to pay taxes for these multi-million dollar settlements.

All that said I have to ask those of you who feel that the natives don't deserve anything for what they've lost and that a conquered people should just suck it up - how do you feel about the Israelites reclaiming their homeland? After all is there much difference between the two situations?

They were run out of their country alot longer ago than the natives were pushed onto reserves. They returned and took back land from Palestinians who had nothing to do with the taking of their country.

Now I know that's an extreme simplification and there are many other factors like religion and the fact that they were allowed to take the land that was considered unusable in the beginning but the basic facts are the same.

Personally I spend alot of time sitting on the fence when it comes to these sorts of conflicts, I suffer from the ability to see both sides of a situation. Just curious on whether you feel the same way about both senarios or whether your opinion on Native issues is coloured by something more.

Cat
#42 Jan 09 2004 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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/raises his hand and opens his mouth, only to snap it shut

Don't get me started on the Palestinians and Israelis. Yes, there are commonalities such as Palestinian and Indians being a nomadic group of people clashing with a landed group (Israelis/Europeans), but I'd be really stretching it to draw analogies between the two.

Totem
#43 Jan 09 2004 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
Hey! We're both oppressed people. We are not good enough to be lumped in with your precious indians? F*ckin' Jihad on you! I come second in America and I tell you, a thousand times, I say holy mother of mohammed, there are a lot of Jews here. From Jordan, where I claim my refuge since the ******* zionist dogs drove me from my home, I come to make a place for my family and to earn money for the struggle back home. I would tell your indians the way to the heart of the Great Satan is through its children. Bomb the schools. Bomb the playgrounds. It is working for us, my friend. The infidel sons of Jacob will any day now come to see the light and give us their precious temple mount. By Allah, we shall all die martyrs, and in heaven receive 40 virgins. Or is that Virginia hams? God I hope it is the virgins. I go now friends, to make yet another point at the end of a gun. May I take many of those bastards with me.
#44 Jan 09 2004 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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I used to feed the ham out of my MREs to the Iraqi PoWs.

/covers his mouth with his hand and laughs

Tee hee!

Totem
#45 Jan 09 2004 at 6:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Or is that Virginia hams? God I hope it is the virgins.
No you don't. Smithfield ham rocks.


Next thing I know someone'll bring up Hitler.
#46 Jan 09 2004 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Next thing I know someone'll bring up Hitler.


Only in so much as the SAT question would be framed as follows:

Americans are to Indians and Isrealis are to Palestinians as ______ is to Jews.

a) Jackie Mason
b) Christ
c) Hitler
d) Joe Lieberman
e) None of the above
#47 Jan 09 2004 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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First of all, McD's sucks.

And if they want to give out scholarships, great. As Gbaji pointed out, the scholarships should be given out according to need not to race. But whatever, I still won't eat there.

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I was under the impression that if you were Native American you pretty much got a full ride for college anyways. Dunno, I grew up in Montana, spent 2 years living right on the edge of a reservation, finished up High School only 20 miles away, and I knew plenty of Indians who went to college and it was paid for. /shrug, maybe it's only certain tribes, or maybe it's just a Montana thing.

Unfortunately, few took advantage of it. I won't go into my experiences or thoughts on Native Americans, because it would turn into a book.

And to answer Moebius' quiz, it's E.
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#48 Jan 09 2004 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, eliminate the bit about Palestinians and Jews, and the answer is Hitler, although a more accurate answer would be Goering. Although it's common knowledge that Hitler used North America's treatment of the Indians as one of many justifications for racial purity. In Mein Kampf, he attributes a lower "mixture" of germanic races with natives as the cause of North America's social and economic success over South America (somewhat browner).

#49 Jan 09 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
You know, some of you people wouldn't recognize a joke if it bent you over and poked your nether regions with an engorged phalus.

Smiley: banghead

God, I love esoteric references to sex.
#50 Jan 09 2004 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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You know, some of you people wouldn't recognize a joke if it bent you over and poked your nether regions with an engorged phalus.
God, I love esoteric references to sex.


Damn. I did what I most hate. Took something so seriously that I couldn't pause for comedy. No more. You're right, and I humbly apologize for leaving you with your pants down around your ankles with your manhood at attention. Your comedic blue balls will pain you no longer.

That was fun.
#51 Jan 09 2004 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
A pox on you, flea. No one, and I mean [Red][/Red], makes me have to clean sugared soda out of my keyboard without at least getting a pox on themselves. That was damn funny.

RACK Flea.
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