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And... it's up the a$$ for Indians. Again.Follow

#1 Jan 06 2004 at 11:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Sniping Sweetpea
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http://indiancountry.com/?1073061036

Has anyone else seen this article about McDonalds not considering American Indians as minorities eligible for their scholarship program?

It really does amaze me that people think that Indians are rich off casinos when almost all have unemployment levels over 50%, plus rampant AIDS, diabetes, alcoholism, suicide... Some make money, it's true, but they sink it into their communities and most are still in the hole. It's like our very own third world nation. There is no minority, as a group, as poor as the Indians.

Way to keep screwing them, McDonald's.
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#2 Jan 06 2004 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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Yet another reason not to eat there. Along with the fact that their food blows.
#3 Jan 06 2004 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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Any minority charity type program that doesn't include all 4 officially recognized minorites (at least) should not be allowed to claim it's a minority program.
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#4 Jan 06 2004 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I am just curious, if an American Indian lives on a reservation, is he or she considered a minority by all of you? Or do they have to be living off the reservation? My curiousity goes to the idea that, while not in any way shape or form perfectly implemented or enforced, suggest indian reservations are "autonimous" entities, governments unto themselves, as it were. If we allow them, all be it treaty bound and poorly, to have their own laws, governments, etc., should we not then expect them, as a collective or individually, to provide their own grant/scholership/loan programs? At least to reservation residents. I have no comments either way on McDonald's scolarship program. Suffice to say I am too white to qualify for much of any financial aid, and on paper my parents had too much money to even get a subsidised loan. I am just inquiring as to the opinions of the board vis a vis the status of Indian tribes in this country.
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#5 Jan 06 2004 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
should not be allowed to claim it's a minority program.


That is discrimination against minority programmes.
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#6 Jan 06 2004 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yah-te-hay!

The paleface devils have given us heapum big bad medicine again. Crazy warpainted Ronald-of-the-big-yellow-shoes-and-bright-red-hair who is chief of Robull-robull and the Fry Guys did not parley with the Spirit People, savvy? Now his ghost will walk among the dead buffalo he has slaughtered to build his wig-wams with the golden rainbows.

Hear me now, Great White Leader! We will ask our ancestors to prevent Chief Ronald from entering the Hunting Grounds in the Sky but instead live among the squaw and clean our elk hides and crush the maize for our food.

Yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi-yi!

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#7 Jan 06 2004 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wow, Totem. You're going to hell. Smiley: laugh

Moebius, I consider Indians a minority because they make up about 1% of the population. If I move to Boston, it doesn't make me any whiter (unless you count the reflection).

As far as life on the rez, the higher education movement in Indian Country is only about 30 years old. In that time, businesses have been established that are somewhat self-supporting, but a large chunk of operating costs are from soft money, and I don't know if you've ever been to a bank but it's hell on your credit to only have grant dollars to show. Any loasn they get are high interst, and so it goes. The poorest reservations are at least a 4-5 hour drive away from a grocery store, let alone a hospital or a city. No one comes there. They put Indians there for a reason. Very few were allowed to remain in their ancestral homelands, and face isolation and the ensuing poverty and hunger that entails.






Edited, Tue Jan 6 13:26:01 2004 by Atomicflea
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#8 Jan 06 2004 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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I would imagine that it'd be horrible publicity if it were publicized enough.

Good thing I don't eat there.
#9 Jan 06 2004 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Moebius, I consider Indians a minority because they make up about 1% of the population


To me, that is the point. They don't make up a % of the population. The "they" that I am referring to are the res dwellers. I begion this knowing full well that I may end it in the blue, because anything remotely right wing gets bashed like a baby seal around here, but why don't we ascimilate the american indian? I live in Minnesota currently, and sometimes I feel like standing up in the middle of the Leech Lake band of Ojibwe's multi billion dollar casino and shouting, "Didn't we kick your asses 150 years ago? You bet your war-painted ass I want tax money." It's not like the British Empire. We didn't set up colonies. We conquered them, and sent them packing to the middle of nowhere. Some washington jack-ass was stupid enough to grant them limited autonomy and sign treaties with them. Now, 150 years later, they are a collection of 3rd world countries that could be easily eliminated with a re-integration plan.

Please, flame away and rate me down to nothingness. :)
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#10 Jan 06 2004 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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Well, I feel this way:

Yes, there should give some type of reparation to natives for "conquering" them and taking over their lands, destroying their culture and sending their asses packing to the middle of nowhere...and yes, there have been many concessions made and tax breaks given and yadda yadda yadda...but in another way, I have to wonder how long we will be responsible forpaying these reparations? Hundreds of years have passed now, since the landing of ol' whitey on these shores. I really don't know what is best....but the way things are doesn't seem to be the best all around option. Smiley: twocents

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#11 Jan 06 2004 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm. Where to start. How about here?
Quote:
Please, flame away and rate me down to nothingness. :)

I don't flame people I disagree with, and if I rated down based on lack of information that would be pointless as well. I love the fact that being an adult enables me to dicuss without having to convince. Your feelings of "I want" are very understandable. Disenfranchised people everywhere feel the same way.

Quote:
why don't we ascimilate the american indian?

Well, we're well on the way to extinguishing these cultures, don't worry. Just give it time. We already tried to send them to school to forget their culture and language, so I'm sure given enough time they'll just get bored and throw in the towel like any good people that could care less about their history.

Quote:
It's not like the British Empire. We didn't set up colonies. We conquered them, and sent them packing to the middle of nowhere.


Well, according to the previous quote, we're very much like the British Colonies. Any conquering force is the same, the innate belief that your culture is better, and that if someone lost their people/land/culture well then it's right and good, a sort of evolution because they're better off if they just live how you feel they should. The British were simply dumber and weaker than us and so were the Indians. I get you. What a clean way to look at it. Refreshing.

Quote:
I live in Minnesota currently, and sometimes I feel like standing up in the middle of the Leech Lake band of Ojibwe's multi billion dollar casino and shouting, "Didn't we kick your asses 150 years ago? You bet your war-painted ass I want tax money."

State taxes, which is what Indians don't pay, goes back to maintenance of local roads, schools etc. Rez roads, schools, etc are the trust responsibility of the Federal Government. Indians use casino money to subsidize these same systems, thereby reducing the federal money you or I would pay to support them. Feel free to take that state tax, however, and have the government up your taxes later on. In the meantime, Indians allow non-Indians in an equal state of poverty access to their roads, schools and health centers, with no additional "You're not Indian" fee. Imagine that.

Quote:
Some washington jack-ass was stupid enough to grant them limited autonomy and sign treaties with them.

That would be SEVERAL Washington Jackasses(Wjs). There are many, just like there are many tribes with many different cultures. There are just as many poor trusting bastards that believed the WJs when they signed away their lives and land in an effort to stop the decimation of their loved ones by gunfire and disease.

Quote:
Now, 150 years later, they are a collection of 3rd world countries that could be easily eliminated with a re-integration plan.

I propose this: Go sleep with as many Indian women as you can. As a matter of fact, everyone should sleep with everyone until we are all a nice golden tan, and then we can be a wonderful, homogenized nation with the occasional pink eyes and third nipple. I am hoping that the child support payments will be so plentiful as to completely vacate the rez, and then we can build a mall.

And just for the record, I talk to Hill folk all the time. Indians are what is called a "nonpartisan" issue.

Edited, Tue Jan 6 15:09:26 2004 by Atomicflea
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#12 Jan 06 2004 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a touchy subject, one that I'd rather not get involved in, but what the hey.

On one side, if I had to pay for all the dumb sh*t my Mom did, I'd be pissed and broke. Well, broke-er. But that is really minimal-izing the issue, since my Mom and I aren't great countries, nor have we ever been. Really this is an issue with Mc D's and the government.

Two or Three things could come of this.

Government says "That's bad, you need to include the Indians or we won't consider you a minority program" -probably won't happen

Government lets it slide, further showing that it's "Ok" to shaft the Indians. - very probable

People work hard at publicizing this and Mc D's changes their decision to avoid bad publicity. - could work, but who's going to do it?

But I feel the Indians have bigger problems than getting scholarships from Mc D's. How many Indians applied for it when they were allowed?

Skeet
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#13 Jan 06 2004 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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This is a touchy subject, one that I'd rather not get involved in, but what the hey.

On one side, if I had to pay for all the dumb sh*t my Mom did, I'd be pissed and broke. Well, broke-er. But that is really minimal-izing the issue, since my Mom and I aren't great countries, nor have we ever been. Really this is an issue with Mc D's and the government.

Two or Three things could come of this.

Government says "That's bad, you need to include the Indians or we won't consider you a minority program" -probably won't happen

Government lets it slide, further showing that it's "Ok" to shaft the Indians. - very probable

People work hard at publicizing this and Mc D's changes their decision to avoid bad publicity. - could work, but who's going to do it?

But I feel the Indians have bigger problems than getting scholarships from Mc D's. How many Indians applied for it when they were allowed?

Skeet
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#14 Jan 06 2004 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
Hmmmm......

Some company/group/individual/etc decides to give money away and they're flamed for it?

Smiley: oyvey
#15 Jan 06 2004 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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I don't flame people I disagree with, and if I rated down based on lack of information that would be pointless as well. I love the fact that being an adult enables me to discuss without having to convince. Your feelings of "I want" are very understandable. Disenfranchised people everywhere feel the same way.


You then, are a true anomaly here. Well met, though, to be sure. My feelings of "I want" are not, however, related to being disenfranchised. They are symptomatic of being human. More appropriately, People everywhere feel the same way.

Quote:
Well, we're well on the way to extinguishing these cultures, don't worry. Just give it time. We already tried to send them to school to forget their culture and language, so I'm sure given enough time they'll just get bored and throw in the towel like any good people that could care less about their history.


We are no where near extinguishing these cultures. That's why they live in squalor. Mexicans, El Salvadorians, Cubans, Germans, Russian, Swedes, Chinese, Filipinos, and many others manage to maintain their cultures to a degree while still moving in to prominent positions in this country, and relative assimilation.

Quote:
Well, according to the previous quote, we're very much like the British Colonies. Any conquering force is the same, the innate belief that your culture is better, and that if someone lost their people/land/culture well then it's right and good, a sort of evolution because they're better off if they just live how you feel they should. The British were simply dumber and weaker than us and so were the Indians. I get you. What a clean way to look at it. Refreshing.


Cultures grow, cultures flourish, cultures decline, cultures vanish. Welcome to World Civilizations 101. How does this happen, you as? Mostly through cultures growing, cultures conquering, cultures existing, cultures being conquered. It is the way of the world. There is nothing inherently sad or loathsome about the process. Finishing something we started centuries ago seems like a good idea to me. Procrastination for that long has to be a record (unless measured against Islam, which still can't bring itself to reform, or Catholicism, whose reformation did little to eliminate its gross inadequacies).

Quote:
State taxes, which is what Indians don't pay, goes back to maintenance of local roads, schools etc. Rez roads, schools, etc are the trust responsibility of the Federal Government. Indians use casino money to subsidize these same systems, thereby reducing the federal money you or I would pay to support them. Feel free to take that state tax, however, and have the government up your taxes later on. In the meantime, Indians allow non-Indians in an equal state of poverty access to their roads, schools and health centers, with no additional "You're not Indian" fee. Imagine that.


Fortunately, if we do take the state taxes, the government is not likely to raise taxes for too long, as doing so would doom the likely democratic regime to losing its power in the next election, reversing the tax. But, for argument's sake, fine. Don't tax the Indians. Grant gaming licenses to private enterprise on the border of the reservation and give them tax breaks. Threaten that and see how long the "hill people" complain about "I want"-ing a cut. I would also be happy to see them charge a "you're not Indian" fee. That would probably pay the costs of supporting the people who worked at the gas stations and diners on the reservation that go out of business because people drive around them.

Quote:
That would be SEVERAL Washington Jackasses(Wjs). There are many, just like there are many tribes with many different cultures. There are just as many poor trusting bastards that believed the WJs when they signed away their lives and land in an effort to stop the decimation of their loved ones by gunfire and disease.


No argument there.

Quote:
I propose this: Go sleep with as many Indian women as you can. As a matter of fact, everyone should sleep with everyone until we are all a nice golden tan, and then we can be a wonderful, homogenized nation with the occasional pink eyes and third nipple. I am hoping that the child support payments will be so plentiful as to completely vacate the rez, and then we can build a mall.


Go right ahead. I for one find few of them attractive. It's just a personal preference.

Quote:
And just for the record, I talk to Hill folk all the time. Indians are what is called a "nonpartisan" issue.


Ok.
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#16 Jan 06 2004 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Some points of clarification:
Quote:
disenfranchised.

I meant financially, but I'll accept the truth that most that most people "want." Even those that sit around all day and smoke pot. They want pot.

Quote:
these cultures

I didn't mean minorities, I was referring to the diverse Indian cultures, but again, most Latinos are mixed-race.

As for everything else, as you said, it's a divergence in our world views, and well, de colores. Big hug for you.
Kudos on not being an @#%^!Smiley: boozing


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#17 Jan 06 2004 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I meant financially, but I'll accept the truth that most that most people "want." Even those that sit around all day and smoke pot. They want pot.


It does make better sense now.

Quote:
I didn't mean minorities, I was referring to the diverse Indian cultures, but again, most Latinos are mixed-race.


I agree. I was referring to the diverse world cultures. Although, I think if you talked to most Puerto Ricans, they would staunchly defend that they have a culture entirely unique from, say Mexico or Columbia. It's laregely a native people, or indian, thing there though.

World views are funny like that. I would imagine we could find roughly 6 Billion different ones if we took the time to ask them all. :) It's just a pity I can't read spanish. :\
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#18 Jan 06 2004 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm going to second Madahme. Um... McD's is a private company. They are giving their money away. You, nor I, nor the government have any right to arbitrate how they give their money away or to whom.

I'm pretty sure that the exclusion of Native Americans had nothing to do with racism or whatever you think it may be, and everything to do with cost effectiveness. There's an overhead for every group of people you donate funds to. I'm betting it was simply a matter of a huge difference in numbers of other minority groups versus the number of Natives that just made it less cost effective to include them in the list of people the charity supported.


Of course. This brings up an issue I'm even more concerned with:

Why the hell do we distribute charity money based on race/ethnicity in the first place? The article even goes to point out that Asians as a group are quite well off, but some asian sub-groups are not. Clearly, it's the labeling that's flawed. The assumption that if someone is of a particular backround that they must be in need. It's silly at the core.


Why not just have a charity. Oh, I don't know... For poor people? Maybe not actually worry about their skin color or where their ancestors came from? Seems to me that if we didn't make such a big deal about which group is a minority and which isn't and all that, that maybe we'd actually appreciate a company giving money away instead of condemning them for it.


But that's just my opinion. What do I know?
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#19 Jan 06 2004 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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When I get more time I will elaborate. But the indians should get nadda. Hell, I say cut off ALL existing funding.

That, and why aren't smart people included in the program. They are by far and away the smallest minority.

Dark.
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#20 Jan 06 2004 at 6:15 PM Rating: Decent
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That, and why aren't smart people included in the program. They are by far and away the smallest minority.

Reminds me of a story, and a real uplifting one at that.

Once upon a time at my high school, there was a special school for the smart people filled with all sorts of honors and collage classes. Then the budget got cut and the program cancled for sports and the slackers who didn't do work anyway. The End.

Don't know why there's nothing for smart people Dark, seems a waste to give money to teach those who don't want to be taught, but that's how it is.

In regards to the Indians, they aren't that far out. One street down from where I live is one of the reservations, and I don't exactly live all that far out. Very handy though, tax free tabaco and drinks.

Personally, I think they make more on lawsuits there then those casinos or fed money. If you hit one of those free-ranging sheep or cows, were talking a grand plus (for just a sheep). Seems like they try, maybe not successfully though, to take the best of both worlds. They want the land, they want left alone, they want our money and they don't want to pay.
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#21 Jan 06 2004 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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@#%^ em.

Take all the Indians scattered across all the reservations in the US, herd them into North Dakota, convince them to secede, then let the ATF invade and kill them all. Or just let them secede and leave it at that. Canada needs another neighboring country to worry about.
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#22 Jan 06 2004 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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I don't usually take much interest in debates of this type, as they get drawn out and boring, and end up with the people involved merely insulting each other. This one, however, has been very interesting to read. (Thanks Flea and Moeb for keeping to the point and not getting ugly.)

My point of view has swayed back and forth during this thread, and after reading gbaji's post I realized why I had such mixed feelings.

We are taught that everyone is equal and should be treated as such. Then the government singles out races that "deserve" certain things over others. Isn't that a contradiction? Shouldn't charities/scholarships be open to everyone who needs them, despite race? How can we overcome differences if it is constantly pointed out how different we are?

America is and always has been a melting pot. We (except the American Indian) all came from elsewhere.

I also agree what with Moeb said about people holding on to their culture. If you have the desire to, you can. Does this mean that Indians should give up their reservations and join "us"? No. They should do what is right for them, but no one, including them, should be entitled to special treatment.

Just my opinion.
#23 Jan 06 2004 at 11:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I'm betting it was simply a matter of a huge difference in numbers of other minority groups versus the number of Natives that just made it less cost effective to include them in the list of people the charity supported.

I'm betting the groups that get money are inversely proportional to the negative publicity they would recieve should they be excluded. Indians don't have the manpower to bitch about anything. It's one of the same reasons that they're referred to as a minority within minorities. Not enough warm bodies, no voting power.

Quote:
Why not just have a charity. Oh, I don't know... For poor people? Maybe not actually worry about their skin color or where their ancestors came from?

The whole point of the article is that Indians are qualify just as well based on their average annual income. I'm all for helping the poor, since not all minorities need help. I'm much better off than quite a few white folks. However, if you're going to go by the "bootstraps" argument, then not even poor people deserve help, since we all should just make do and haul ourselves out of the mire with our wits and our can-do attitudes. It's a slippery slope.
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#24 Jan 07 2004 at 12:22 AM Rating: Good
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The thing is, it's hard to feel sorry for a culture which by the time the Europeans arrived hadn't even invented the wheel. If they are destitute and unskilled, whose fault is that? They weren't exactly going anywhere culturally, intellectually, and politically.

/shrugs

Survival of the fittest perhaps.

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#25 Jan 07 2004 at 4:46 AM Rating: Good
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"Why People Shouldn't Be given 'Free' Money"
Rant by Darkplage

All "Let's support stupid/lazy people funding" should be abolished. They do not 'help' people, only encourage stupid/lazy behaviour. To quote a wise person

A wise person wrote:
Give a dead sh*t money that they have not earned and you will supply them with booze and cigarettes for a day. Make them sell crack to get that money and hopefully they will get a liking for the stuff and you wont have to worry about them after a few months

Poetic licence provided by Poetic licence Inc.

Well. You get the idea.

I do not know that many people under the age of 23 that do not claim some form of government funded financial support. None of those I know DON'T go out every weekend and piss it up against the wall. Thatís right folks, I pay near 48% tax so my friends can go out and get fu*ked up. My parents pay near 48% so my friends can go out and get fu*ked up. (Money they could give to me so I could go out and get fu*ked up.) So I am a little anti help the "Needy" (Read: Want to go clubbing and can't afford to because they don't want to get a full time job because they couldn't imagine having to wake up at 8, go to work till 5, and ONLY go out one night a week.

As far as minorities (Read: People that like throwing around the word "Predigest" "Racism" and "Why are you beating brother with a steal poll") are concerned... Honestly you shouldn't have got me started...

I used to live in Mt Isa. sh*t hole of the globe. Aboriginals (Hence forth known on these boards as "Abbos") littered the street. Drunk as a wine-o that won the lotto. There were abbo children in hospital, a week old covered in scabies and riddled with disease. Their kids walked around the streets yelling "You fu*k'n white C*nts." throwing rocks at passing cars or buildings, sniffing paint on the streets. On pension day the pubs are filled with them, drinking until they can stumble but a few yards then fall over. (Hence how they littered the streets.)

"But where are all the police during this time?" I hear you ask. "Surly this anti social, destructive, repugnant and unwholesome behaviour isn't tolerated".

Well sadly yes. Because of all the paper work involved with arresting an Abbo, coupled with the discrimination law suits, which are of course, government funded, most don't.

"Why don't they simply pass out and sniff paint at home so tax payers cant see where their money has gone?"

Because their government built houses are continually burnt down. I sh*t you not, these people tear the walls down and burn them in a fire in the middle of their living room. "Why would they do that, that is insane!"

BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT KEEPS GIVING THEM MONEY BECAUSE SOME FU*K'N GENIUS DECIDED THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE A MINORITY, THEY SHOULD BE TREATED BETTER THAN THE REST OF US!

Where is my pay out? I could use some drinking money! I could uses some cash to feed my solvent abuse. A free house would be great! Near immunity to all laws could come in handy when I decide to commit near all crimes bar murder.

"Poor people. They never had a chance! Being brought up like that they could never become a useful part of society and contribute to a community like a civilised human being"

We tried to help... And the bastards went about suing the same government that was funding the law suit!

Then there was a whole heap bull about how we should all apologise for it... ďNational Sorry dayĒI really cant seem to recall kidnapping any children, with the intent of removing them from the above described conditions... Can you? Our Prime minister is a champ because he refuses to say it as well. He didnít do sh*t, and to claim responsibility for it would be ridiculous. I am just sorry that it didnít work.

They should be thankful the Brits found them! I am sure if a nationality with a better work ethic (such as the Japanese), or a nationality with a more... "diverse" menu (Such as the Vietnamese or Chinese) had taken an interest first, they would have been much worse off.

So in conclusion,

"You Abbos have ruined your lands, you shaln't ruin mine".

Fu*ck off and die.

Dark.

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#26 Jan 07 2004 at 9:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The thing is, it's hard to feel sorry for a culture which by the time the Europeans arrived hadn't even invented the wheel. If they are destitute and unskilled, whose fault is that? They weren't exactly going anywhere culturally, intellectually, and politically.


No one's asking for compassion. The U.S. Government has a trust obligation with Indians, and they are a federally recognized minority. That is a fact that will only cease to be true if lawmakers decide to revoke the trust, independent of how the population feels. Much like I don't agree with the war in Iraq, but I can't do a damn thing about it since my President can do as he pleases once he is in office. Vote for Janklow again once he gets out of jail. He has the same views.

I'm sure I don't have to tell you that 'unskilled' is subjective. I don't think a car mechanic in Iowa in the 50s was unskilled simply because my education surpasses his and my lifestyle and job requirements differ. Indians had their traditional medicine, their agriculture, and a rich spiritual culture. They died from diseases that they had never encountered, same as any organism that had not built up a defense. They had what they needed to live at the time, which is all any culture aspires to. It just happens that now we need more to live.

Hmm... Janklow link won't work since it has a bad word in it. here it is (remove the hyphen):
http://www.di-ckshovel.com/jank2.html


Edited, Wed Jan 7 09:48:03 2004 by Atomicflea
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#27 Jan 07 2004 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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Sure, but assimilation would go a long ways towards curing those ills. The continued insistance upon remaining as native as possible (excuse the pun) is akin to me wearing wooden shoes to work every day becuase I have reverence for the "old ways". There are better ways to do things. In general, Indians look to the past, not the future, and this is the singularly most limiting aspect about them. That, and a love for the fire water.

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#28 Jan 07 2004 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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They're working on it. I don't know if I mentioned it earlier, but Indian Higher Education is a recent movement, only about 30 years old. Indians are hauling themselves into a new world after years of clinging to resentment and old ways. I think there's a fair balance of old and new that makes for a culture can be respectful and observant of its past, while adjusting to the future.

I think it's the word "assimilation" that has such negative connotations and just rubs me the wrong way. It's reminds me of Latinos that want to marry whites so their children will be blue-eyed. That, of course, is(mostly)just the self-hate internal dialogue that one learns to fight as part of a social or ethnic minority.
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#29 Jan 08 2004 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Is this topic dead?

It seems that if you warped in time back when the mighty railroad was being built across the west and buffalo were slaughtered striping the indians of the food, shelter, and religion, there were people like talking about sending them to ND and slaughtering give me a break. Why do you try to rationalize crimes against humanity, that now are more subtle and benign (almost making culture extinct v.s no scholarship money)

I don't think native americans can be considered autonomous and should be considered a minority. They can not be classified as a separate government with means to tax, and distribute those funds to the their own people. Like one post said they were given the crappiest land. In my opinion that factor alone can cripple there means to thrive economically.

And check out the government once they saw how much casinos can make they changed laws so pratically any state can have a casinos also crippling another means that would make an indian reservation economically viable.

I feel no amount of reparation can justify what the settlers of America, our great nation, did to the native Americans and there perhaps even greater nation. Ask yourself this would be able to put a price on your childs life, priceless right is that less than or equal to any reparation made to native americans.

Can ignore me or rip up my grammar i don't care just wanted to put in my thoughts good topic
#30 Jan 08 2004 at 3:01 AM Rating: Good
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How long do "we" have to pay for crimes commited in the distant past? Hell, my grandparents moved here from Ireland, so my family wasn't even here, should I be responsible?

Everyone has the chance to make something of themselves in America. Even if you can't get a fancy scholarship, you can work your ass off and go to college, as many people have to do. The fact is, if you have the motivation, you can do it no matter what race you are. No one said it was going to be easy.



#31 Jan 08 2004 at 3:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Speaking as a person who grew up near indian reserves and went to school with quite a few native americans.

"Good. @#%^ EM"

I have never met a native american that wasent a piece of sh*t, not being racist I have just never met one who wasent a scumbag.
#32 Jan 08 2004 at 3:57 AM Rating: Good
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The reality is Indians can assimilate into modern American society and still retain their cultural heritage. What's that? Do I hear dissenters among our dear readers? If what I say is not empiracally true then why do Indians drive cars instead of horses? Why do they wear polyester instead of buckskin? Why do they operate casinos instead of... whatever Indians did with their spare time when they weren't scalping, getting into drunken brawls, and running away from John Wayne and the Lone Ranger.

The fact is they have assimilated what things they deemed convenient or desirable and chose to discard the rest. If cultural purity was what they were aiming for, then anything short of a life patterned after Indian society pre-European settlers is the only acceptable response.

In for a nickle, in for a dime.

If two hundred years from now blacks insist on living in ghettos because their ancestors did, it's their own choice, but don't blame it on me. And just because it was done in the past doesn't make it an intelligent choice. If the rez isn't working out for you, then it's time to leave and make something of yourself.

Let's face it. The myth of the "noble savage" is just that: a myth. There were no ecologically aware Native Americans, there were no Indians in tune with nature. They lived in one location for as long as the fauna and flora could support them and then they moved on (with the notable exception of the Pueblos). They ruined whatever land they resided on and then moved to fresh lands/enslavable enemy tribes.

The Indian reservation is an anachronism. An excuse to amount to nothing. And that's a goal anybody can aspire to.

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#33 Jan 08 2004 at 4:06 AM Rating: Good
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As for the argument that they were here first, well, so what? What group of people who lost a war haven't been displaced, subjugated, killed off, enslaved, and hounded since the beginning of Time? It's the way things are. Deal with it.

If they could have held their own against European military, intellectual, medical, and economic supremacy then we wouldn't be having this conversation. As it is, they have gone the way of every other ethnic group/nation/class of people who lost a life or death battle. Commiserating and wishing for bygone days isn't going to improve things. Time to move on, Tonto.

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#34 Jan 08 2004 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The reality is Indians can assimilate into modern American society and still retain their cultural heritage. What's that? Do I hear dissenters among our dear readers?

Not me. That is why several have started leaving to get an education, and then returning to the rez to try to make it a viable place to live.

Quote:
They lived in one location for as long as the fauna and flora could support them and then they moved on (with the notable exception of the Pueblos).

Not only the Pueblos. The Lakota consider the Black Hills sacred, and have been there forever. One of few groups on or near their ancestral lands. They refuse to take Federal payment for it, and have for years.

Quote:
I have never met a native american that wasent a piece of sh*t, not being racist I have just never met one who wasent a scumbag.

A real shame. Not calling you a racist, but my experience with the handicapped is limited to a guy that zipped around my high school in an electric wheelchair grabbing crotches and asses. I have been exposed to the best of Indian society: Professors, cultural leaders, innovators. People that worked hard to get out of poverty and chose not to leave their communities but return and make them viable and pleasant. I suppose it's easier to understand as an immigrant, since you never quit feeling the pull of home, even if it was a crappy one.

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#35 Jan 08 2004 at 8:01 AM Rating: Decent
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A real shame. Not calling you a racist, but my experience with the handicapped is limited to a guy that zipped around my high school in an electric wheelchair grabbing crotches and asses.



Mmmmmm crotch and asses mmmmmmm...ohh ya, I don't really care what you think of the crippled community, because quite frankly the cripple community is just what you described, a bunch of self serving @#%^s who no one has the guts to tell them to stop, im not like that, and could care less if someone I never met thought that of me. Are you a bigot for thinking that, @#%^ no.

Am I racists for thinking the vast majority of all Native americans are scum? Exactly, thats what racism is. God Bless America. @#%^ing indians

#36 Jan 08 2004 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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A real shame. Not calling you a racist, but my experience with the handicapped is limited to a guy that zipped around my high school in an electric wheelchair grabbing crotches and asses



Mmmmm ass and crotch mmmmmmmmm.....oh ya I had a point....Do I care that you think the entire crippled community is a bunch of lawless perverts who do as they please cause no one has the balls to tell them to stop. Nope, mostly because the majority of people in wheelchairs ARE like that, bunch of @#%^ing @#%^s who thinks the world owes them because they can't walk, well boo @#%^ing hoo you want to be called a handicapable son of a bitch. Behave like a normal human and be treated as such. No one owes you sh*t, take it up with your god (This is a mini rant directed at those @#%^ers at FARA who keep sending me there @#%^ing 'god loves you' pamphlets BAH!)

But are you a bigot for saying that the majority of people behave like that when you observe it with your own eyes? @#%^ no.

Am I a racist for assuming that the majority of Natives are scum sucking trailer trash because thats what I observe? @#%^ yes, thats what racism is. @#%^ing indians.
#37 Jan 08 2004 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Bah forum broke again, my posts arnt showing up when I post them, don't know why im posting this. Probibly as an explanation for my double post if the two missing posts I posted show up at a later date.



post
#38 Jan 08 2004 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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They ruined whatever land they resided on and then moved to fresh lands/enslavable enemy tribes.
It's Indians like you who have ruined your own lands!! You'll not ruin mine!!

I don't know if I'd call the areas "ruined" rather than depleted. They sprung back in fairly short order, after all. Compare such to the "white man's" treatment of the American buffalo (still not recovered) and the passenger pigeon (extinct) and you get a better definition of ruined.

But, hey, you never know what might have been. If Europeans never came over and the Indians were left alone, there's no saying that right now they wouldn't have developed their own industrial revolution over the past couple hundred years, complete with deforestation, coal burning factories, strip mining and the rest of it.

Just for the joy of reading, the Straight Dope answers why the New World cultures never invented the wheel.
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#39 Jan 08 2004 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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True, Jophiel. I was using the term ruined in the sense that enviromentalists use it when depleted would be a far morw accurate description.

Totem
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#40 Jan 08 2004 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
But are you a bigot for saying that the majority of people behave like that when you observe it with your own eyes? @#%^ no.

Your experience, as much as you would wish it to, does not equal the sum of all experiences. Only to you. But I do understand why you would feel that way, given that you seem to have been exposed to some crappy Indians. Sucks that their behavior has been so awful that you can't even conceive of alternatives.
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#41 Jan 08 2004 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Ok so I hear everyones opinion and frankly I can't even tell you where I stand on the issue. One part of me says what happened to the Native Americans is not fair and has directly resulted in the poverty and substance abuse problems we see today. One part of me says for me to pay for it isn't fair, I didn't do it and I don't agree with what was done so why should I have to pay taxes for these multi-million dollar settlements.

All that said I have to ask those of you who feel that the natives don't deserve anything for what they've lost and that a conquered people should just suck it up - how do you feel about the Israelites reclaiming their homeland? After all is there much difference between the two situations?

They were run out of their country alot longer ago than the natives were pushed onto reserves. They returned and took back land from Palestinians who had nothing to do with the taking of their country.

Now I know that's an extreme simplification and there are many other factors like religion and the fact that they were allowed to take the land that was considered unusable in the beginning but the basic facts are the same.

Personally I spend alot of time sitting on the fence when it comes to these sorts of conflicts, I suffer from the ability to see both sides of a situation. Just curious on whether you feel the same way about both senarios or whether your opinion on Native issues is coloured by something more.

Cat
#42 Jan 09 2004 at 1:14 AM Rating: Good
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/raises his hand and opens his mouth, only to snap it shut

Don't get me started on the Palestinians and Israelis. Yes, there are commonalities such as Palestinian and Indians being a nomadic group of people clashing with a landed group (Israelis/Europeans), but I'd be really stretching it to draw analogies between the two.

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#43 Jan 09 2004 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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Hey! We're both oppressed people. We are not good enough to be lumped in with your precious indians? F*ckin' Jihad on you! I come second in America and I tell you, a thousand times, I say holy mother of mohammed, there are a lot of Jews here. From Jordan, where I claim my refuge since the bastard zionist dogs drove me from my home, I come to make a place for my family and to earn money for the struggle back home. I would tell your indians the way to the heart of the Great Satan is through its children. Bomb the schools. Bomb the playgrounds. It is working for us, my friend. The infidel sons of Jacob will any day now come to see the light and give us their precious temple mount. By Allah, we shall all die martyrs, and in heaven receive 40 virgins. Or is that Virginia hams? God I hope it is the virgins. I go now friends, to make yet another point at the end of a gun. May I take many of those bastards with me.
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#44 Jan 09 2004 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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I used to feed the ham out of my MREs to the Iraqi PoWs.

/covers his mouth with his hand and laughs

Tee hee!

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#45 Jan 09 2004 at 6:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Or is that Virginia hams? God I hope it is the virgins.
No you don't. Smithfield ham rocks.


Next thing I know someone'll bring up Hitler.
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#46 Jan 09 2004 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Next thing I know someone'll bring up Hitler.


Only in so much as the SAT question would be framed as follows:

Americans are to Indians and Isrealis are to Palestinians as ______ is to Jews.

a) Jackie Mason
b) Christ
c) Hitler
d) Joe Lieberman
e) None of the above
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#47 Jan 09 2004 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
First of all, McD's sucks.

And if they want to give out scholarships, great. As Gbaji pointed out, the scholarships should be given out according to need not to race. But whatever, I still won't eat there.

I'm not exactly sure how it works, but I was under the impression that if you were Native American you pretty much got a full ride for college anyways. Dunno, I grew up in Montana, spent 2 years living right on the edge of a reservation, finished up High School only 20 miles away, and I knew plenty of Indians who went to college and it was paid for. /shrug, maybe it's only certain tribes, or maybe it's just a Montana thing.

Unfortunately, few took advantage of it. I won't go into my experiences or thoughts on Native Americans, because it would turn into a book.

And to answer Moebius' quiz, it's E.
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#48 Jan 09 2004 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, eliminate the bit about Palestinians and Jews, and the answer is Hitler, although a more accurate answer would be Goering. Although it's common knowledge that Hitler used North America's treatment of the Indians as one of many justifications for racial purity. In Mein Kampf, he attributes a lower "mixture" of germanic races with natives as the cause of North America's social and economic success over South America (somewhat browner).

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#49 Jan 09 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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You know, some of you people wouldn't recognize a joke if it bent you over and poked your nether regions with an engorged phalus.

Smiley: banghead

God, I love esoteric references to sex.
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#50 Jan 09 2004 at 1:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You know, some of you people wouldn't recognize a joke if it bent you over and poked your nether regions with an engorged phalus.
God, I love esoteric references to sex.


Damn. I did what I most hate. Took something so seriously that I couldn't pause for comedy. No more. You're right, and I humbly apologize for leaving you with your pants down around your ankles with your manhood at attention. Your comedic blue balls will pain you no longer.

That was fun.
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#51 Jan 09 2004 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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A pox on you, flea. No one, and I mean [Red][/Red], makes me have to clean sugared soda out of my keyboard without at least getting a pox on themselves. That was damn funny.

RACK Flea.
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