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#1 Jul 11 2005 at 4:26 AM Rating: Decent
Hey everyone!

The other week, somebody was talking about a SMN LS, and I've been thinking that it is quite a good idea, seeing as there has just started a RDM/BLM LS, a Galka LS >_>, BST LS, and others.

So, if you'd be interested, please do let me know (and if there already is a SMN LS also let me know >_> <_< >_>)

I was gonna call it something like; Diciples(or however its spelt)OfBahamut or something along those lines >_>;

Be Well!

Calli xx
#2 Jul 11 2005 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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This will take some planning to do...

You should try to talk to Kydryn, Jerhyn, or Tribal or some higher level Summoner to see what their opinions are about this. It will take some leadership, organization, and discpline to get such stuff started.


PS:
Quote:
WHM 63


Since I now pop occasionally during weekend (for the one who observe, I was on for a little while during the weekend -_-). We can PT >.>;;;;;;

Amanada dies.


Edited, Mon Jul 11 12:04:21 2005 by scchan
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#3 Jul 11 2005 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Not to start another flame war, but why should this person talk to Kydryn, Jerhyn, or Tribal?? They didn't say that thay wanted them to JOIN the LS, so unless they (Kydryn, Jerhyn, or Tribal) are schooled in running an LS, what good will their input do? Anyone can find good info on BEING a SMN on this site, Killing Ifrit and others or just by doing the job and knowing what it entails. They don't need to bother higher level folks. I know Tribal and he's a busy guy plus he is NOT on the "Mentoring Program" list - the following are: Munkey, Laago, Lyonis. Don't know if Tribal would want to be spammed with questions and such about the job, but those people on the list signed up to be asked questions about SMN.

OP, you go! Being an LS leader isnt that easy, but you could do it! If I didn't already have like 6+ pearls lying around my Inventory and Mog House I would be very interested. Heck, I still may be some day, so please post here and let us know how your project is going! I wish you luck on getting this off the ground. My best friend and co-worker is a high level SMN and I ask him many questions about the job (he doesn't mind) so feel free to send me a PM here or in-game with SMN questions! I am only a lv 22 (just shy of 23) all but 3 elemental avatars and all but Fenrir (but have 2 whispers towards bauble...). I would be more than happy to play with you all too!

Best of luck!!
#5 Jul 11 2005 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
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I mean just to get some peer advice in getting stuff done. It takes connections to get stuff done in FFXI... That is just the way it is.

And there is no need to unleash a rate down for that. If you disagree what I say, we can discuss openly. IMO Rate downs are reserved for the use of improper language or ettique, not for people who have different opinions.
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#6 Jul 11 2005 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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1,332 posts
I'm already spammed by people who have questions about the Summoner job. That's nothing new. =P

As far as linkshells go, people equip linkshells mostly because they want to do things (events, Ballista, etc.) with the people in them. Most people have linkshells so they can draw help from others, and give help in return, and in a Summoner linkshell, you should be prepared to fight lots of avatars and do lots of Carbuncle Mitts runs. That's how the interest will stay in such a linkshell.

Other reasons why someone might take up a job-specific LS: Needing advice about the job, ranting about the job, or even a break from their normal LS's doings. I'm normally a very busy Summoner, but every now and then I know I could use a break from the HNM scene.
#7 Jul 11 2005 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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A key problem with SMN LS that I can see is that a SMN party (SMNX5 + BRD) is not really possible until level 65+. Using BST LSs as a comparison, a lot of motivation having such LS is to organize BST events and PTs. In other words, a lot of lower level SMNs will get excluded from such SMNs PT. As Jeryhn says, he always get asked for SMN questions. That is because there are only handful of high level SMNs (regardless NA or JPs, high level SMNs are really rare).

Avatar prime fights (with the exception of Fenrir) usually do not really need a specifc LS... Any LS with good amount of 60+ can do that easily. I remember long time ago when I am a noob, Safara once told me how hard Shiva fight now... Now Shiva is so easy to kill compare to a lot of NMs.

Edited, Mon Jul 11 15:28:30 2005 by scchan
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#8 Jul 11 2005 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
/em crawls in a hole now.
#9 Jul 11 2005 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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:O

Nebz, you got your Evoker Spats yet? And why do you crawl into a hole? Let me hug you back out~
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#10 Jul 11 2005 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
yea, got my spats before I came back... got them last monday (4th of July holiday) I believe... spent about 3hrs waiting for everyone to gather in the Cloister... but finally went in and got them. I was killed when the tank wouldn't run in and get link agro... so they linked on me first.. needless to say, I was barely able to hit ctrl-j before they killed me, let alone fire off Astral Flow.

As for crawling in the hole... I'm hiding cause I was forgotten and feel worthless ;;. Oh well, I'm pretty sure a pearl exists for me anywho...

/em becomes nervous and scared.

Right Calli?
#11 Jul 11 2005 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Quote:
And there is no need to unleash a rate down for that. If you disagree what I say, we can discuss openly. IMO Rate downs are reserved for the use of improper language or ettique, not for people who have different opinions.


Who is that comment geared towards? Anyways, don't take it so personal. Its a message board, not your best buddy since kindergarden. Also, watch your negativity... it may get you rate downs too...


Anyways, enough about you, the OP wants to create an LS and now they are being told it's not a good idea since low level SMN will be left out. That was not very supportive there folks. Take a moment to look at it from another view - there would be a variety of LV's in the LS and the close ones can join together. And who said anything about SMN+BRD parties? Is that the only way a SMN can LV?? Noooooo... so please refrain from negativity folks, the OP didn't ask for a "...please tell me why this idea would not work..." thread. Look for pitfalls but also look for positives. There are many SMN only LS's out there in case you haven't looked around the boards much. Go over to KI and look at their SMN forum... LOTS of SMN ls's... some VERY sucessful, some small and some that have failed. But seeing as how this is the first here on Cerberus, we will have to see how it goes!

Also, SMN will need outside help for a lot of the things they need, so yes they will need "connections", but not just high level SMN's. The Carby Mitt fight will defo need more than SMN... and depending on the avatar fight, 2-3 SMN and a RDM or BRD is plenty.

I think it's a great idea Callista! You can get a variety of LV's together and have a deep knowledge pool and help group. And I am sure the ppl in the LS will have other jobs leveled too so they can contribute with those also when needed.

It's refreshing to see a high level like yourself being positive and helpful Jerhyn!! Keep it up!! Have you found that a BST and SMN duo do well?? I have been doing it at my level and we do pretty ok... but I know my hi-lv SMN friend used to solo bombs and now duo's with his gf who is a high lv BST and they do very well also.
#12 Jul 11 2005 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
Aliiyah kinda pointed on something...

perhaps you can make it a support LS... (a LS of support jobs such as SMN, RDM and BRD)

or perhaps an LS of odd jobs (such as bst, smn, drg & brd)... basically those that are over looked quite a bit when a pt slot becomes available.
#13 Jul 11 2005 at 5:38 PM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Hmmm... you may be onto something there... I know my poor DRG has no LS either. I do know there is a BST LS though.... I think Clifford or his bro started it.

Hmmmm.... there's a thought too Calli! Maybe make it the kinda "odd job out" LS... unless you wanted it to be more specific... then the other jobs just cloud up your pure SMN dream! ^^ LOL!
#14 Jul 11 2005 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
I never really liked the idea of job only or race only linkshells, they limit your resources and opportunities for friendship imo. Plus summoner is a job that requires alot of work and a high level job first to accomplish certain things like fenrir and carby mitts. I think this Ls would only take advantage of the high level summoners and such, but I think that's how it is in all these kinds of linkshells. Especially this new manaburn LS, although blm and rng parties are nice, sometimes i think people forget the value and strength of a regular old fashioned party.

That's my $.02 ^^/
#15 Jul 11 2005 at 6:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I am not trying to be negative, just an opinion to make things work.

Anyway...... If anyone needs help with Summoner stuff, I will be on during weekend, and you can try to catch me for help. Any well balanced 60+ PT can fight any avatar prime except Fenrir.

Fenrir is completely another issue..... I agree with Banigaru that people may take advantage of people in getting Fenrir... This is my take:

It is good to be able to find help for Fenrir, but it is not a neccessary must. A lot of people that do have Fenrir actually have a higher level job already. It is very hard to leech Fenrir with a regular 70+ Fenrir fighting PT because nearly everyone are needed to contribute for the win. Then you will have to ask 5 70+ Summoners to get it for you, and there are very few (I may know only like 5-6 NAs that can do that) ... That is when connections count, and this is where help abuse may come in ><

To organize a SMN help LS, there should be guidelines to who can get it so abusing will not be an issue -- otherwise it will be unfair to a lot of high levels.
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#16 Jul 11 2005 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
As I said...it was just a thought ;_; =P
#17 Jul 11 2005 at 10:35 PM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Like I said before Callista, it IS a very good idea and I think you should do it!! You never know how it will go until you try it. Take the things that people here said in stride and with a huge grain of salt too. You never know how things will turn out! You could form a huge and properous LS!

Just keep me posted!! /tell Aliiyah in game or PM me on here!!

/hugs Calli




</em wonders if the negative poster is happy with crushing another thread and person's ideas...>
#18 Jul 11 2005 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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304 posts
I think its a good idea too, and I think when any job specific ls there could be problems with people only wanting or demanding help when they come in and not even for a social asspect. I'm currently in a very social ls (BlueRequiem) and we do our best to make sure everyone is welcome and can ask for help, but at the same time, we do keep an eye on the new recruits when we have them to make sure they aren't going to cause any negative waves or use people. If they do *boot*.

Sure, a SMN ls could be used to fight vaatars like Fenrir and the other 6, but its not like the issue hasn't or cannot arise in other job specific lses. In a WHM ls (if there is one o.O WHM United!) People could be used for Erase, or NIN for Utusemi:Ni. Of course these things will arise, but be like Amanada said and be weary of who you invite, or atleast keep an eye on them if your pursue this idea.
#19 Jul 11 2005 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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296 posts
Quote:
perhaps you can make it a support LS... (a LS of support jobs such as SMN, RDM and BRD)

or perhaps an LS of odd jobs (such as bst, smn, drg & brd)... basically those that are over looked quite a bit when a pt slot becomes available.

So THAT'S What you were talking about when you mted me earlier today. I like the Idea ^^. an all summoners linkshell...If you people actually go through with this, let me know and i'll take a pearl ^^. But my main linkshell will still be the Pirates. Arr. I'd make a new Informational thing about the linkshell on my website ^^. Yay Summoners!
#20 Jul 12 2005 at 7:07 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
</em wonders if the negative poster is happy with crushing another thread and person's ideas...>


Now now, can't we all just get a *ong?
#21 Jul 12 2005 at 7:09 PM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Not when ppl make other posters feel like their ideas and thoughts are not worthwile...

It was nice to meet and party with you finally Nebz/Krem!! ^^

Edited, Tue Jul 12 20:09:50 2005 by lewbaby
#22 Jul 13 2005 at 10:06 AM Rating: Decent
Eh, I happen to know from a personal basis that Amanada has had his fair share of helping with carby mitts and the smn's he helped showed little to no grattitude for them at all.

I think Amanada is just trying to point out the fact in an all SMN ls, you're going to have MORE of these kinds of people. Ones that expect others to help them get AF, Carby Mitts, Avatar Whipspers and eventually Fenrir.

No one minds helping friends... and no one minds helping nice people from time to time. When you start getting antsy about time and telling the person helping you when he/she needs to be leaving to the Temple... or habitually disregard the person's advice while in a deadly zone. Ex: "If I get agro, just watch. I don't want your sneak/invis to wear off"; then person gets agro'd and the other joins in the battle. First swing forces sneak and invis wear off and now the other player is agro'd by everything the helping player wasn't.

IMO, Amanada was just trying to prevent from the unavoidable greedy/selfish SMN who thinks everyone's purpose in game is to help him/herself only. These are usually the ones that get upset when a whm won't cross a zone to raise them or teleport them out of Windurst simply cause the whm's HP is in Jueno and doesn't want to change it for just one person's teleport. I'm just trying to give some examples... Amanada didn't mean to reject or crush the idea... just giving some insight on some things that could become. This is very valuable and should be taken into heavy consideration as some sort of rule for the LS if the LS were to be carried out. In no way was Amanada saying: "Don't do the LS, it's a bad idea."

Now please, I don't wanna see a new friend goin at it with an old friend... so can't we all just get a *ong? ^.~
#23 Jul 13 2005 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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As I high level, I really do not mind helping someone. Helping is fun, but also it is good for the person to be helped to let the helper to have fun. I have tons of experience that helping for fun becomes frustration -- people not being smart and get aggroed, do not research the mission/quest.

There are people who expect you to help him/her to even look up all the details of the fights, or sit around not helping the mission expecting the others to do all the work for him/her. Just a few weeks ago, I got /anon tell from a person in Upper Def. Tower asking me to help to kill Archduke. I asked him/her what level is him/her. He said low 50s. I tell him this is leeching, he says I can sit back and heal and sing basic songs (the /anon person is a Bard)... This is the altitude that makes helpers angry and frustrated.

As a mage, at least it does not cost me a lot of gil to help... Ask a Ranger or Ninja for help, and see what they will say.

Helpers themselves have the right to have fun, and share the joy when other people look "shiny" in new AF or access to new areas. That has become something of abuse sometimes.

Callista and Nebz are someone that I am willing to help -- posting here showing gratitude that they are grateful of being helped, makes helpers happy too. However, I have a fair share of encounters that my experiences are completely opposite.

Send me a tell during the weekend if you want me to help this weekend... If I am not on your Friends List, you can send a tell to Zicrod, Diosa, or Fiercelink.... They can track me down >.>;
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
#24 Jul 13 2005 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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4,475 posts
scchan wrote:
This will take some planning to do...

You should try to talk to Kydryn, Jerhyn, or Tribal or some higher level Summoner to see what their opinions are about this. It will take some leadership, organization, and discpline to get such stuff started.


PS:
Quote:
WHM 63


Since I now pop occasionally during weekend (for the one who observe, I was on for a little while during the weekend -_-). We can PT >.>;;;;;;

Amanada dies.


Edited, Mon Jul 11 12:04:21 2005 by scchan


Haha. Knew you couldn't resist.

Quote:
No one minds helping friends... and no one minds helping nice people from time to time. When you start getting antsy about time and telling the person helping you when he/she needs to be leaving to the Temple... or habitually disregard the person's advice while in a deadly zone. Ex: "If I get agro, just watch. I don't want your sneak/invis to wear off"; then person gets agro'd and the other joins in the battle. First swing forces sneak and invis wear off and now the other player is agro'd by everything the helping player wasn't.


I get this with my main LS..-_-..needless to say I was DEMANDED to help someone out with a garliage key. :/

*is going to look for a new one*

Edited, Wed Jul 13 15:17:40 2005 by Zaleshea
#25 Jul 13 2005 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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292 posts
Nebz... I am not fighting, just enlightening ^^... I like to look at things from more than one person's point of view and hopefully they and other readers can see that there ARE other points of view to consider. I am well versed in critical thinking and tend to look at situations from many different sides. IMO it looks like Speedly is too (and Speedly is just downright funny! Love the sig!) Ama, Bani, you (Nebz) and others had some valid points, but some were also "flippable" and not so valid.

Maybe I missed it, but who asked for help in any of their posts to get any SMN gear and avatars? The OP's thread was asking about starting a new LS not about getting help for SMN gear/avatars. Putting help "pitfalls" in reply to the OP was like putting the cart before the horse and sounds like some personal venting more than anything... which is cool... venting is goooooooood.

Sooooo since the thread has moved onto venting about people abusing help and not showing appreciation, I will go with that flow.

Helping lower lv's goes hand in hand with this game - as a matter of fact it's part of the game just as leveling is. SE wanted to create a way for people to get to know each other, meet other cultures and learn about other jobs through helping each other as well as through XPing, quests and missions. I know I have learned many things about other jobs by watching those higher than myself do their jobs while helping me. Sometimes learning and having fun does get lost when trying for AF and certain RARE or RARE/EX drops, as the people that wanted the items are about to explode with joy!! In some cases, they are exploding with greed or as Ama put it "leeching" and those are the people you need to avoid for future help requests. Or you also have the right to say, "No thanks!" and leave it at that.

I am in several LS's and I offer my help as whatever character can help no matter what, to the people below me, just leveling up other jobs or just needing some help. I help others as I have been helped. I also have had my share of people who I have helped who have not thanked me in any way. It stung for a second but in the end, I really didn't care because I just felt accomplished in helping them and I usually had a lot of fun. And I have helped those people again! I don't need to see my name posted on Alla or KI to know that I am an extremely nice and very helpful person, you can pretty much ask anyone who knows me. I have even helped out when I was pretty low (many things that I was too low for) and died helping - even after 50 and before the XP nerf, so I lost a lot of XP - but didn't mind and just laughed it off. Went out the next day and got the XP back. It's just part of the game.

So if you don't want to "get used" or help people without a "thank you" and gushing over you in-game or posted online, don't help people. That will stop the feelings you get of being taken advantage of. Also as for being asked to look stuff up before helping people, some people don't have PC's and can't look up the info on quests and missions and will need others to do it. There are people out there who only have the PS2. I have met them in party, on quests and missions, and in LS on many occasions. Plus, PERSONALLY I always want to look it up for myself anyways. That way I KNOW what is going on - I know I do not like to go into any fight or quest NOT knowing what do or where to go. It's hazardous to ones character's life. It's like going on a road trip from one end of the US to the other with no map ... O.o And if you KNOW these people have PC and can look it up but are being lazy, tell them to do it. Then if they still don't, just don't help them. It's up to your own personal preference. I always have a spare PC next to me when I play to keep myself aware... but I am also a nerd and have like 5 PC's and a laptop over and above my PS2 (which I don't play on anymore >.>)...

Quote:
I think Amanada is just trying to point out the fact in an all SMN ls, you're going to have MORE of these kinds of people. Ones that expect others to help them get AF, Carby Mitts, Avatar Whipspers and eventually Fenrir.


Now, I really have to disagree with you on that Nebz. Carby mitts are a luxury item IMO, not a necessary one, and I again say that you are not going to bring an alliance of only SMN to get them, which is the same deal for AF items. So an all SMN LS will not be "used" for those items solely. Also I know many people that have done the avatar battles as other jobs. I was lucky and as my 60+ RDM was ASKED to come for Refresh and to sit there and look pretty. Nothing more, easiest way to get avatars/whispers ever. Also, it took my best friend IRL&IG who is a high lv SMN, (and I am gonna drop his name now b/c he said I could) Suraklin, many tries to get his Fenrir avatar as a lv 63+ SMN... and do you want to know why? He had to beg and PAY people to help him... that is complete BS in my book becasue you know that the people who helped him already got Fenrir by getting help from others and NOT by paying others. To protect the "innocent" I won't name drop the many who requested he pay them... you greedy people all know who you are. And he lost his first time and still had to pay the people! He was so upset he had to take a break from the game. No purple pup and out hundresds of thousands of gil.... I digress slightly. My point is this: Any job will need help getting the things that they will need for their jobs... some earings, armor, weapons, etc... it's not just a SMN. So a SMN only LS will have no more needs than any other job specific LS or any LS in general...

Also, Suraklin told me that there have been other SMN only LS's that have been started here on Cerberus that have come and gone, but only due to the leader and LS mates having many other LS's and commitments. Like everyone has posted Calli, a LS will take a lot of work, but it can be done.
#26 Jul 13 2005 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree SE designs this game to have people look out each other and help each other out -- that is part of the fun of the game, and I really enjoy doing so.

I do not mind getting "used" as long as I get fun from it. At the same time, there are people "uses" other people in manners that are not fun. I am open to joining a job LS if it is fun, sociable, and well managed.

Sometimes LS leaders need to be able ensure the "quality of fun" within the LS. This means leaders need to organize LS events, and take effort to weed out/manage dramas or elements that depereicate the value of the LS. Running a LS is not an easy task, and will require leadership. But a well ran LS will bring joy to the leaders and members.

Edited, Wed Jul 13 16:51:40 2005 by scchan
____________________________
Amanada (Cerberus-Retired) (aka MaiNoKen/Steven)
-- Thank you for the fun times in Vana'diel

Art for the sake of art itself is an idle sentence.
Art for the sake of truth, for the sake of what is
beautiful and good — that is the creed I seek.
- George Sand

A designer knows he has achieved perfection,
not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to take away.
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
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