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#52 Sep 04 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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If you get a crit on a proc'd Scathe it will be massive and sexy. Enhanced Scathe is at 24, so anytime after that you should start seeing spikes of damage. It'll be great for fates. Since I've been doing them as SMN I've been spamming Ruin II which is instant but doesn't get the double damage component which I would love, so I'm looking forward to that.
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#53 Sep 04 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Good
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Anakte wrote:
Right, the recast of Scathe is 2.5 seconds (and I believe all GCDs are, it was never lowered to 1.5 was it?), so it doesn't matter if it is instant, it takes the exact same amount of time to move from one Scathe to the next as one Blizzard to the next. Aside from movement, the other place it might be useful is when a mob is about to die and the front loaded damage might hit but the cast time might not (as in zerged fates) but as far as rotation it's still not going to be worth it.

That said, it's a very minimal difference, and the time you spend in Umbral cycle once you have Blizzard III is also minimal, but on a standing fight Blizzard will beat out Scathe in pure damage. If you're in a fight where you're moving a lot or randomly, a missed cast of Blizzard will be detrimental, so you may choose to use Scathe *just in case*. But if you know you can stand still, choose Blizzard.


It certainly seems that Scathe is faster than Blizzard I.

Also, I was wrong, Fire I is the only thing that will trigger a Fire III Firestarter.

And finally, I swapped Scathe for Lightning 2. It is quick, DOT (130 initial, ticks of 70 or 80 at lvl 50) and 5% chance on each tick to spawn a free Thunder 2 that stays available for a reasonable amount of time. And the DOT effects as the mob is slept. Not bad. I didnt give it much of a go last time, and the damage / speed ratio is better with Thunder II because the amount of time it takes to cast is much faster and the damage done is not too much less than Thunder III. I like it. I started throwing it into my rotation as the first inital spell cast after lethargy.
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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
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#54 Sep 04 2013 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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A single Scathe is faster than a single Blizzard for sure, it's instant cast and that makes the damage front loaded. But considering the gcd and a long boss fight, the idea of it being in a rotation is not beneficial. Let's say over a long fight you were to use either Scathe or Blizzard I as filler in the Umbral cycle and over this fight you had the opportunity to use 50 of them.

Blizzard I: 50 x 150 = 7500 potency worth of damage
Scathe: (120 x 40) + (240 x 10) = 7200 potency worth of damage

So, over the course of the fight, you lose 300 potency worth of damage, and the first 49 casts don't matter if the damage was front loaded or if it came after the cast was finished.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#55 Sep 04 2013 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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jhariya wrote:
The few times I've been able to get past the 1017 I have been working on THM. I'm enjoying it, but not sure if I am playing it properly. I went through Sash twice and thought I was doing well enough. And by that I mean nobody was critical of how I was playing. I slept what I could and alternated bliz/ fire. By doing so I never ran out of mp. Then I noticed a shout where another THM was trying to get a group and he was boasting that he was better than your average THM. I'm sure he was probably just running his mouth, but it did make me wonder if I'm not cutting it.

Thoughts?


The fact that you know where your priorities are as a class with support spells, already screams loudly to me that you're cutting it. Boasters like the one you mention tend to be lazy players.
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#56 Sep 04 2013 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Anakte wrote:
A single Scathe is faster than a single Blizzard for sure, it's instant cast and that makes the damage front loaded. But considering the gcd and a long boss fight, the idea of it being in a rotation is not beneficial. Let's say over a long fight you were to use either Scathe or Blizzard I as filler in the Umbral cycle and over this fight you had the opportunity to use 50 of them.

Blizzard I: 50 x 150 = 7500 potency worth of damage
Scathe: (120 x 40) + (240 x 10) = 7200 potency worth of damage

So, over the course of the fight, you lose 300 potency worth of damage, and the first 49 casts don't matter if the damage was front loaded or if it came after the cast was finished.


Scathe isn't instacast like Lethargy, there is a small delay.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers (especially since you did not incorporate the boosts that Blizzard gets from Astral, but the damage output feels nearly equal in practice over the long run. The only reason I would choose blizzard over scathe is because I prefer to use the transmutate and cast both spells so rarely that the overall difference in speed is negligible (I use them as low cc fillers when I am waiting for mana to regenerate, or when I am saving mana for adds).
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Character Name: Valk Ayree
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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
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#57 Sep 04 2013 at 9:56 AM Rating: Good
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Well, casting animation delay or not, it falls within the 2.5 gcd window to make it "equal" to Blizzard in terms of cast time spent. I'm also only talking about filler in the Umbral cycle, I won't be casting anything but Fire I, Fire III, and Thunder procs during the Astral cycle, and a Blizzard III to end the cycle. I don't think there's a cast time benefit to Blizzard during the Umbral cycle so it should still be a 2.5 second cast, and I also don't believe Blizzard has a damage benefit during the Umbral cycle but all of that is something I want to test when I can.

And yes, the damage is very nearly equal, I was just pointing out that in the long run, mathematically speaking, Blizzard I is better filler in the Umbral cycle than Scathe for any rotation that doesn't involve movement.
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BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#58 Sep 04 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Anakte wrote:
Well, casting animation delay or not, it falls within the 2.5 gcd window to make it "equal" to Blizzard in terms of cast time spent. I'm also only talking about filler in the Umbral cycle, I won't be casting anything but Fire I, Fire III, and Thunder procs during the Astral cycle, and a Blizzard III to end the cycle. I don't think there's a cast time benefit to Blizzard during the Umbral cycle so it should still be a 2.5 second cast, and I also don't believe Blizzard has a damage benefit during the Umbral cycle but all of that is something I want to test when I can.

And yes, the damage is very nearly equal, I was just pointing out that in the long run, mathematically speaking, Blizzard I is better filler in the Umbral cycle than Scathe for any rotation that doesn't involve movement.


I think that we are debating to prove the same point.

Edited, Sep 4th 2013 11:01am by Valkayree
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Character Name: Valk Ayree
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http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
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#59 Sep 04 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yea I'm not sure how you and I started going back and forth on it, my point was more to Hallie earlier because they suggested using it in standard rotation, and mentioned a 1.5 sec gcd which isn't true. 1.5 sec might be the cast animation, although I think it's significantly faster.
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Anakte Grey
BLM 50 SMN/SCH 50 WHM 40
MRD 26 DRG 30 MNK 30 GLA 25

http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/416469141_Vt5aq-XL-2.jpg
#60 Sep 04 2013 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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Anakte wrote:
Yea I'm not sure how you and I started going back and forth on it, my point was more to Hallie earlier because they suggested using it in standard rotation, and mentioned a 1.5 sec gcd which isn't true. 1.5 sec might be the cast animation, although I think it's significantly faster.


I don't know, I don't have a parser. I go on gut feeling Smiley: schooled
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Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Ul'Dah; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#61 Sep 05 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Any chance an Admin would move this thread to a permanent spot in the THM class forum?

#62 Sep 05 2013 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Gnu wrote:
Any chance an Admin would move this thread to a permanent spot in the THM class forum?




Maybe it needs to be there. I am getting tired of retyping my rotation (assuming people actually give a damn) Smiley: tongue
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Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Ul'Dah; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
#63 Sep 05 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
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Valkayree wrote:
Gnu wrote:
Any chance an Admin would move this thread to a permanent spot in the THM class forum?




Maybe it needs to be there. I am getting tired of retyping my rotation (assuming people actually give a damn) Smiley: tongue


I do, I do.

Not sure if anyone actually goes to the Class forums, but having useful information posted there would probably be a good start.
#64 Sep 05 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Gnu wrote:
Any chance an Admin would move this thread to a permanent spot in the THM class forum?


Done.
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#65 Sep 23 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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As soon as this got moved the discussion stopped permanently. So sad.
#66 Sep 25 2013 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
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I'm still checking in on the thread from time to time, but yea thread seems dead.
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#67 Sep 25 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
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I just recently found the BLM job forum. Since classes become fairly irrelevant toward lvl 50, the BLM forum is going to get a good deal more use. I sent Thayos a msg hoping they may change the drop down navigation to represent Job forums a bit more clearly.

Until then, try here.

Edited, Sep 25th 2013 4:17pm by Gnu
#68 Sep 25 2013 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
...you can cast fire 3 and receive half cast time and then mash your fire key to receive a fire with half cast time as well.


Ok, I'm finally starting to understand what you mean by this. That is just a glitch? possibly will be fixed?


#69 Sep 25 2013 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gnu wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
...you can cast fire 3 and receive half cast time and then mash your fire key to receive a fire with half cast time as well.

Ok, I'm finally starting to understand what you mean by this. That is just a glitch? possibly will be fixed?


It's not a glitch per se, it's a consequence of the game mechanics. You do not get stacks of Astral Fire/Umbral Ice upon casting a Fire/Frost spell, the buff stacks are applied when the spell hits a target (and possibly does damage). If your follow-on Fire cast starts before the initial Fire III hits the target - and it should if you aren't dancing around - it also receives the cast speed buff from UI3.
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#70 Oct 01 2013 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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cartec wrote:
Gnu wrote:
HitomeOfBismarck wrote:
...you can cast fire 3 and receive half cast time and then mash your fire key to receive a fire with half cast time as well.

Ok, I'm finally starting to understand what you mean by this. That is just a glitch? possibly will be fixed?


It's not a glitch per se, it's a consequence of the game mechanics. You do not get stacks of Astral Fire/Umbral Ice upon casting a Fire/Frost spell, the buff stacks are applied when the spell hits a target (and possibly does damage). If your follow-on Fire cast starts before the initial Fire III hits the target - and it should if you aren't dancing around - it also receives the cast speed buff from UI3.


I live off of that mechanic. I also like the one where you get the firestarter, drop another Fire I, and just as the cast animation starts, mash the FireIII proc for an instant Fire III followup. Its how I get 2 second 1500+ dmg spikes. I can bust a gaol by myself with that combo.

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 4:06pm by Valkayree
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Character Name: Valk Ayree
Server: Lamia; Ul'Dah; Free Company Leader - The Swarm (Swarm)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/character/1746889/
- Blue Mage? FTW? -
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