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#1 Dec 28 2013 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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This is the only site that I am scared to post anything. The rating system can be manipulated by cliques. A moderator set my rating back to normal after finding out how the site works. I still cannot get myself to post when I have questions. I just sit and wait for someone to post the same question I want to ask. See if someone answers them so I can find out what I want to know.
#2 Dec 28 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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This whole rate up/down system does restrict free speech and promote sheepy behaviour. If it only did so if you value the colour of your name, it wouldn't be that big a deal. My qualm is that posts can be nuked for having differing opinions. That just isn't cricket.
#3 Dec 28 2013 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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While probably not feasible with a site like this one, one feature on another board that I really like is the requirement to write a reason for downvoting ("neg-repping" in this case). Obviously, you could just type gibberish in the box, but if a post gets bombed by peopel without legitimate reasons, you could police it a bit better. Also, you are only allowed to give out a certain amount of ratings per 24-hr period, and can't rate the same person (in either direction) multiple times in a row.

While I wouldn't limit the overall amount of votes, perhaps a limit to the number of downvotes you could give out in a time period would work alright. I don't think green arrows should be restricted, though.
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#4 Dec 28 2013 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
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For one thing, don't care about your karma. And if you care so much about a karma system on a forum that you won't post for fear of going down, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the issue isn't with the system.

Caveat: if you're talking about the FFX or FFXIV forums, know that they're a particular kind of terrible and it has nothing to do with the karma system.
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#5 Dec 28 2013 at 7:54 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Caveat: if you're talking about the FFX or FFXIV forums, know that they're a particular kind of terrible and it has nothing to do with the karma system.
Smiley: lol
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#6 Dec 28 2013 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
This whole rate up/down system does restrict free speech and promote sheepy behaviour.
Great, another person who learned constitutional law from Duck Dynasty.
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#7 Dec 28 2013 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
For one thing, don't care about your karma. And if you care so much about a karma system on a forum that you won't post for fear of going down, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the issue isn't with the system.

Caveat: if you're talking about the FFX or FFXIV forums, know that they're a particular kind of terrible and it has nothing to do with the karma system.


Yes, I am talking about 14. They rated me down to sub-default and I did not know what it was. I could not see my own post and others could not either. I come from the Allahkazam period and forgot my original account. They did not have this system up in 2003 and kind of shock that the clique runners were old FF11 members from my old linkshell. I instantly knew what it was because two of them I had to kick for trying to get items by kissing A. I do not know what made ZAM think this was a bright idea when the same thing was going on years ago. Just people did not have to be scared to speak their mind and get set to not being seen. In addition, you pay for this, which made it worse because I paid a year. I feel if I pay I should not be able to be sub defaulted.

They need to make it that you can be rated down but your post can still be seen if its sub-default.
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#8 Dec 28 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
They need to make it that you can be rated down but your post can still be seen if its sub-default.
Click your name in the upper right. Click "Forum Settings". Change "Thread Filter" to "Never Filter". Now Sub-D posts won't be hidden from you.
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#9 Dec 28 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Also, reading through your posts, I might not necessarily have rated them down personally, but I can see why many of them were.

Edited, Dec 28th 2013 11:22am by Spoonless
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#10 Dec 28 2013 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:

They need to make it that you can be rated down but your post can still be seen if its sub-default.


The point of the karma system was specifically to allow for idiocy to be weeded out of the conversation, so that it didn't get derailed.

That mattered a lot more in the past, when the boards were much more active. Now it would only really matter for the XIV board, where it doesn't matter anyway, because the XIV board is the second level of hell.

Realistically, the problem is that the XI community on these boards is atrocious. Well, it was always elitist, with the game being what it was, but the individual job forums were usually pretty helpful (the warrior board, for instance, taking steps to get new Warriors level-appropriate GAxes).

But as the game aged, the newbies disappeared and people quit. So you really just ended up with a bunch of elitist idiots on a board padding their own and each other's inflated senses of self worth. When FFXIV's forums were created, a lot of them started posting there, too (for unsurprising reasons). That pretty instantly established the culture of the board as a FFXI 2.0 board, and it's not likely to change.

Let me put it this way - when FFXIV came out, a lot of posters on Zam's non-FFXIV board were playing it. We all just used a different thread in the general games forum to talk about the game, rather than gouge our eyes out with the XIV board.

TL;DR: If you don't have a thick skin, don't use the FFXIV board. Or the Asylum. Though the Asylum is a lot more inviting...
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#11 Dec 28 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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The karma system is working as intended.

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#12 Dec 28 2013 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:

They need to make it that you can be rated down but your post can still be seen if its sub-default.


The point of the karma system was specifically to allow for idiocy to be weeded out of the conversation, so that it didn't get derailed.

That mattered a lot more in the past, when the boards were much more active. Now it would only really matter for the XIV board, where it doesn't matter anyway, because the XIV board is the second level of hell.

Realistically, the problem is that the XI community on these boards is atrocious. Well, it was always elitist, with the game being what it was, but the individual job forums were usually pretty helpful (the warrior board, for instance, taking steps to get new Warriors level-appropriate GAxes).

But as the game aged, the newbies disappeared and people quit. So you really just ended up with a bunch of elitist idiots on a board padding their own and each other's inflated senses of self worth. When FFXIV's forums were created, a lot of them started posting there, too (for unsurprising reasons). That pretty instantly established the culture of the board as a FFXI 2.0 board, and it's not likely to change.

Let me put it this way - when FFXIV came out, a lot of posters on Zam's non-FFXIV board were playing it. We all just used a different thread in the general games forum to talk about the game, rather than gouge our eyes out with the XIV board.

TL;DR: If you don't have a thick skin, don't use the FFXIV board. Or the Asylum. Though the Asylum is a lot more inviting...


All the other boards seem dead to me. Can you give me links to other ones you're talking about. Even killingifrit.com looks completely dead now. Idi I feel like a old woman trying to find these boards online.
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#13 Dec 28 2013 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
The karma system is working as intended.

Administrator Kaolian


It does if you do not have mods for the boards. It also can make cliques if it's a small community. If it's a small community you should have at least one moderator.
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#14 Dec 28 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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We do. They generally have orange names with a thingy that says "admin" under their name. Users can self moderate as well by reporting various posts which immidiatly send them to all the admins for review, or by using the Karma system to rate things up or down.

Edited, Dec 28th 2013 11:23am by Kaolian
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#15 Dec 28 2013 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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You can try the FFXIV subreddit, which seemed alright. Though of course, Reddit has a voting system as well. Of course, your overall karma doesn't affect your individual posts' visibility.

http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv

As a side note, frequently bringing up your previous experience in FFXI and disparaging players who come from other, "easier" MMO backgrounds are probably going to get you downvoted on there as well. You should be fine with the more innocuous comments and questions, though. I'm not picking on you but those types of remarks, even in an otherwise decent post, tend to make people downvote, ignore the rest of your post, and move on.
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#16 Dec 28 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
This is the only site that I am scared to post anything. The rating system can be manipulated by cliques. A moderator set my rating back to normal after finding out how the site works. I still cannot get myself to post when I have questions. I just sit and wait for someone to post the same question I want to ask. See if someone answers them so I can find out what I want to know.


Here is a question, what exactly are your questions that your worried about posting? And to be honest i dont think i would worry to much about the rating system on these boards most the people here are most helpful, and will assist anyway they can. If you have a question about EQ or WoW I may be able to help....
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#17 Dec 28 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Rukkuss wrote:
Queen EmmanuellaLima wrote:
This is the only site that I am scared to post anything. The rating system can be manipulated by cliques. A moderator set my rating back to normal after finding out how the site works. I still cannot get myself to post when I have questions. I just sit and wait for someone to post the same question I want to ask. See if someone answers them so I can find out what I want to know.


Here is a question, what exactly are your questions that your worried about posting? And to be honest i dont think i would worry to much about the rating system on these boards most the people here are most helpful, and will assist anyway they can. If you have a question about EQ or WoW I may be able to help....


I do not have the questions anymore. I feel if you pay for this site unlike others with rating. It should not have a system where you cannot see your post and others cannot see your post unless they go out of their way to find out how to see it. My answers and questions would show like you are on ignore. I have ran sites myself before is why I made the comment. Why is it setup like this when people can manipulate a forum if it has cliques. You cannot delete post at all or anything. Those post can sit for who knows how long and still be down rated if you got no moderator taking care of that forum..
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#18 Dec 28 2013 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
This whole rate up/down system does restrict free speech and promote sheepy behaviour.
Great, another person who learned constitutional law from Duck Dynasty.

Constitutions? On the internet? I didn't mention a constitution.

All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.
#19 Dec 28 2013 at 5:17 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.
It's a double edged sword. Long time WoW players like to joke that the Oboards are a wretched hive of scum and villainy(as well as other things that aren't Star Wars references). And they always have been a bit of a cesspool of garbage you have to wade through to get to the islands containing things worth reading. Part of that is because, as the main forum for the game, it attracts a lot of the idiots who think that the company reads all the posts. The other part is that it's too big to really keep moderated. A karma system of some kind implemented at the very beginning might not completely eradicate the problem, but I suspect it might have mitigated it a bit.

Spoonless wrote:
As a side note, frequently bringing up your previous experience in FFXI and disparaging players who come from other, "easier" MMO backgrounds are probably going to get you downvoted on there as well. You should be fine with the more innocuous comments and questions, though. I'm not picking on you but those types of remarks, even in an otherwise decent post, tend to make people downvote, ignore the rest of your post, and move on.
I tend to agree, especially with the first sentence. After reading through the OP's posts in a particular thread in FFXIV, s/he did get fairly adversarial, especially towards casuals.


Oh, and of all the boards on here that I have frequented for any length of time, FFXIV is probably the one where I've seen the admins take the heaviest hand when dealing with the community. I don't think I've seen everywhere else where they step in nearly as much as they do there. Sure, maybe there are places where they converse just as much, but not to the level of intervening as mods on quite that scale.
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#20 Dec 28 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
This whole rate up/down system does restrict free speech and promote sheepy behaviour.
Great, another person who learned constitutional law from Duck Dynasty.

Constitutions? On the internet? I didn't mention a constitution.

All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.


I relatively rarely see opinion posts getting blasted unless they're genuinely stupid, not because they're disagreeing with the rater.

Exception, of course, being the FFXIV forum. Smiley: lol There you might get rated down just because you posted something and your name was blue.
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#21 Dec 28 2013 at 10:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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The FFXI and FFXIV forums tend to have an overall community that requests more administrator action than the other segments of the forums. Part of that is potentially due to population differentials, though even when the WoW forums were at their peak they didn't seem to have as many such requests. We try to keep things fairly common across the board segments with the exception of the Asylum, but we have always cracked down on things a bit more in the gaming forums since those are the ones you are more likely to see kids hanging out in, etc. Also there have historically been different personalities and board quirks at work. FFXI used to be absolutly death on some sort of windower modification. I have no idea what it was or why it was a big deal, but that topic probably caused more mutes in FFXI than it should have.
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#22 Dec 29 2013 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Rule number one of posting on Allakhazam: Karma doesn't matter. If you think it does, you're doing it wrong.
Rule number two of posting on Allakhazam: Only pansies filter posts.

Edited, Dec 29th 2013 2:06am by Turin
#23 Dec 29 2013 at 4:44 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
The FFXI and FFXIV forums tend to have an overall community that requests more administrator action than the other segments of the forums. Part of that is potentially due to population differentials, though even when the WoW forums were at their peak they didn't seem to have as many such requests. We try to keep things fairly common across the board segments with the exception of the Asylum, but we have always cracked down on things a bit more in the gaming forums since those are the ones you are more likely to see kids hanging out in, etc. Also there have historically been different personalities and board quirks at work. FFXI used to be absolutly death on some sort of windower modification. I have no idea what it was or why it was a big deal, but that topic probably caused more mutes in FFXI than it should have.
I was mostly just commenting on the fact that admins are heavier handed(by request, it seems) on the boards where you're most likely to hear complaints that they aren't heavy handed enough.

I find that part interesting, more than anything.
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#24 Dec 30 2013 at 4:58 AM Rating: Good
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We actually try to keep our bickering and in-fighting on the XIV board within ourselves/ to known posters - if someone is on post 1 and they post a question, they're not going to get jumped on because scaring off newbies is bad policy. (And even if it's a question some community members find stupid, karma doesn't affect you until post 10.)

Unfortunately, it's hard to shake off early first impressions.
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#26 Dec 30 2013 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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XIV is an interesting animal, but your name is familiar to me and as a relatively new user, that can only mean one thing. You said something that left an impression in some thread or another. I tend to remember folks who are antagonistic.

The windower thing I think had something to do with SE directly asking ZAM to quash those discussions. At the time they had a REALLY hard line approach to anything that enhanced or modded their game. It was very heavy-handed and frankly, made Alla look bad that you were so afraid of losing "Square Enix Community's" half a post every 5 years that you followed what they wanted, but that's what it was and we all dealt with it. I think Pikko had told us why in vague and abstract terms once after a particularly bad round of nukes, and that's the gist of what I remember.

The boards on XIV are a mix of old elite XI players and newer players who are coming from other mmos. There will be personality clashes. There are already cliques. Don't worry too much about your karma and posts being below sub-default. I don't know anybody on this board who would actually be able to answer your questions that has sub-default posts filtered.

In fact, those are sometimes the highlight of the day.
#27 Jan 03 2014 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:

All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.

They also have a lot of trolls, jerks, cnuts, socks and haters.

A reasonable opinion expressed in a respectful way will almost never result in a sub-default rating.



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#28 Jan 03 2014 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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It seemed like SE kind of had a DADT policy regarding Windower, though their official position was that it violated their TOS and using it was a bannable offense. I'm pretty sure Zam's policy regarding Windower discussions was basically that since it was officially against SE's rules and its use could result in a ban, discussion promoting it should be disallowed. Eventually, squabbles over this resulted in not being allowed to mention it at all (with how active the board one, it's much easier to just blanket ban the topic instead of having to review each individual case), though references to "that thing we can't talk about" were pretty frequent. It was a CYA tactic, similar to why we can't talk about selling accounts or in-game currency for games.

While you can make the argument that the basic Windower was harmless, it was also a platform for many more severely game-abusive tools. If it were just a stand-alone mod, I don't know that it would have been so strictly policed.
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#29 Jan 08 2014 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
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Demoncard wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Demoncard wrote:
This whole rate up/down system does restrict free speech and promote sheepy behaviour.
Great, another person who learned constitutional law from Duck Dynasty.

Constitutions? On the internet? I didn't mention a constitution.

All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.

I think what he meant (and he can speak for himself, really) is that freedom of speech only exists in the US Constitution, which guarantees it only in public spaces. In private spaces there is no such thing as freedom of speech.

Having said that, I do agree with your general point, that people are suppressed somewhat in offering their opinions where the karma system is used to actively "grade" opinions based upon the reader's own personal views, instead of the karma system being used to suppress trolls. Unfortunately, it seems rather intuitive to view the "green up arrow, red down arrow" as a representation of agree/disagree.

Any system is only as valuable as the input it receives.

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#30 Jan 08 2014 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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One person's striking conversationalist is another person's troll.

As a general rule, I rate people solely on the content of their posts. Is the question legitimate? Is the argument or response logical? Did they put any effort into spelling and grammar? (You may have the greatest post in the history of ZAM but if you spell like a certain poster in the XIV forums, who has repeatedly said he doesn't give a crap about how many typos he makes, you're not gonna get a green arrow from me. I probably won't actively downvote someone for spelling, but I certainly won't upvote them.)

The Internet has a larger problem, one that is more evidenced on less moderated places ... like Facebook. People have lost their internal censors. They say things in a public space that they would have previously kept to themselves, or only to their inner circle of closest friends. Like gossipy housewives on the telephone, they spread rumors or talk about people behind their backs - only they're talking directly to them instead since it's the Internet. This behavior is incredibly destructive in the long term, if someone lets their conversation escalate out of control and they're giving death threats.

Thing is, some people enjoy that kind of banter and back and forth. In ZAM, though, it's supposed to be kept to the Asylum.
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#31 Jan 08 2014 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Demoncard wrote:

All I'm saying is that on forums without rating systems, people have more varied opinions and posts that aren't a rephrasing of what other highly rated people have posted.

They also have a lot of trolls, jerks, cnuts, socks and haters.

A reasonable opinion expressed in a respectful way will almost never result in a sub-default rating.




What's a reasonable opinion? A palatable one? One that you like? One that matches yours? There are plenty of posts in the Asylum and OOT that are default or sub default that're politely worded, and are posted without the intention of annoying other people. Or were there, if they get nuked before I finish posting.

This is what I'm seeing; the green arrow is used to reward or encourage good posts, or ones that you like, posts that fail to interest you go unarrowed, and posts whose opinions you dislike or are drastically different to yours get red arrowed.
#32 Jan 08 2014 at 6:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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The karma system also gives forum posters the ability to assist with moderation. Threads that are really bad drop sub filter before they are nuked by the admins. Threads and posts that are rated up get left alone when we might have otherwise moved them for beign off topic, etc. Once you are up near a thousand or so posts (which is trivially easy to get these days it seems) you personally are pretty much immune to the effects of the Karma system anyways, so the only people it really has a major impact on are new posters, which are some of the primary targets to begin with. It's a system. Like any system, there are people who work to game the system, people who abuse it, people who benifit from it overmuch due to errors, and areas that can be tuned. The administrators are the checks and balances of the karma system. For example, I can at my discretion reset the karma of any sub default individual back to system default 3.00. All administrators can also apply unlimited up or down rates to an account to adjust for "Karma camping" system abuses, errors, or other such karma events. And we do correct things when we find ratebots or karma campers and the like, but otherwise we rarely intervene. It's my board to run, but the overall content, feel, direction and what is liked or disliked and rated as such belongs to the forum as a whole and all the people who post in it. Us administrators can shape and guide that, sometime quite forcefully, but we usually don't, because it annoys people.

Are there Cliques? Sure. Do they have an impact on day to day forum operating and ratings? No. If you could see the rating history of a given thread, you would be suprised to see who does the rating, why, and how frequently. I almost garuntee that the people you think are rating your posts, aren't. We don't care about why they rated it, Their reasons are their own. All I care about is that it doesn't become an attempt to artifically inflate or destroy a base karma across an entire person or thread, it isn't done via ratebots, and if two people want to rate eachother into oblivion that's fine with me.

It really does work pretty well overall, and where it doesn't, we fix it.

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#33 Jan 18 2014 at 7:11 PM Rating: Good
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cynyck wrote:
I think what he meant (and he can speak for himself, really) is that freedom of speech only exists in the US Constitution, which guarantees it only in public spaces. In private spaces there is no such thing as freedom of speech.


Is it private space if the site can be accessed and the posts read by anyone? These forums require a membership to contribute to, but anyone can read them, right? wouldn't that make them public?
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#34 Jan 18 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
cynyck wrote:
I think what he meant (and he can speak for himself, really) is that freedom of speech only exists in the US Constitution, which guarantees it only in public spaces. In private spaces there is no such thing as freedom of speech.


Is it private space if the site can be accessed and the posts read by anyone? These forums require a membership to contribute to, but anyone can read them, right? wouldn't that make them public?


I think the term "public" in this sense uses the legal definition of the word, and means under the authority of the Government. Public vs Private schools, etc.
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#35 Jan 24 2014 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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It may be helpful, have the default filter to "Never Filter" instead of "Default Filter", when a new users sign in the board. Then the user who cares the Karma will learn how to filter at his own pace.
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#36 Jan 24 2014 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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The default filter is set where it is to protect our more sensitive new users from potentially objectionable content. We will not be adjusting it, but thank you for the suggestion.
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#37 Jan 26 2014 at 5:15 PM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
The default filter is set where it is to protect our more sensitive new users from potentially objectionable content.


I'm pretty sure this doesn't work entirely as intended... Smiley: um
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#38 Jan 28 2014 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
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Demoncard wrote:


This is what I'm seeing; the green arrow is used to reward or encourage good posts, or ones that you like, posts that fail to interest you go unarrowed, and posts whose opinions you dislike or are drastically different to yours get red arrowed.
Check your glasses. You've got a green title with very few posts. That means you've been rated up - pretty significantly, and certainly more than you've been rated down.

The arrows are only for decoration - as is your karma score. But hey - be afraid, be very afraid that some anonymous person somewhere is going to click on one of your posts and ....rate it.


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#39 Jan 28 2014 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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I'm gonna rate you SO HARD.
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Banh
#40 Jan 28 2014 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, it grinds some people's gears more than others'.

Call it OCD, but when someone rates me down, I'd like to know why. Language barriers and various other obstacles that come with text-based communication often result in misunderstandings. When I see an anonymous rate-down, I can't help but think that it probably could have been avoided if the person on the other end had said something rather than mashing the down-arrow. This is where the OCD comes in, because knowing it might have been avoided can drive me @#%^ing nuts.

And while being rated down doesn't prevent you from posting here, as Kao just pointed out, it will drop you below the default filter at some point and then you're effectively blocked by anyone who hasn't changed the filter settings. The filter settings aren't exactly visible, so I imagine a lot of people don't even know you can change them.

Since we can now put people on ignore lists, and considering most spam threads disappear before or immediately after they go sub-default, I really fail to see how the arrows do anything except act as a release for frustrated people who wish to punish other posters.

The pedagogue in me is cringing.

Edited, Jan 28th 2014 10:16pm by Mazra
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#41 Jan 28 2014 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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Clicking the red arrow is so much more satisfying than trying to argue with some people.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#42 Jan 28 2014 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Clicking the red arrow is so much more satisfying than trying to argue with some people.

At the very least, it's faster. I find myself wishing for arrows anytime I'm on other forums.
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Wow, you've got an awesome writing style.! I really dig the narrator's back story, humor, sarcasm, and the plethora of pop culture references. Altogether a refreshingly different RotR journal (not that I don't like the more traditional ones, mind you).

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