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#1 Dec 17 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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There have been frequent complaints about the lack of moderation in the ffxi forums. Understandably so, since vlor is the only one who actively moderates any of them, and there's only so much he can do, which leaves very little moderation done. Most job/server forums are completely unmoderated, etc. It's simply impossible for vlor to effectively moderate one of the busiest forums on the site by himself, and unreasonable to expect him to.

In this thread i suggested that people use the report button more, as it of course is the easiest and fastest way to get admin attention. However as blowfin was getting it, it's just not really happening, at least not as much as it probably should, based on how often complaints come up.


Back in the ask an admin thread kao mentioned volunteer moderators, and it seems like that may be a decent option to explore for the ffxi forums. Being such an old game, i understand not wanting to hire admins for the game just to help moderate the forums. However i'm sure there are people who spend time on the forums anyway who wouldn't mind spending some time helping keep the quality of the forums up.

Although i rather dislike heavy moderation myself, and prefer the more hands off moderation that zam uses, it doesn't appear to be working too well for the ffxi forums, and i think even just one or two volunteers could help a lot.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 11:33pm by Kaolian Lock Thread: thread has been covered, so noted.
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#2 Dec 17 2010 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?
#3 Dec 17 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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Pikko wrote:
Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?
I don't see why that's relevant.
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#4 Dec 17 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just find it ironic that most of the moderation work we do is because of you, yet here you are calling for more moderation.
#5 Dec 17 2010 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Rog is only doing this because no one else would, which was all started by a thread in =10. While Rog might be the source of "90%" of 11s moderation, that has to do because people make and derail pointless topics that should of been locked long before a scene is caused.
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#6 Dec 17 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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That's not what i'm doing. I don't want more moderation. I think it's fine how it is. However many people don't think it's fine, which is why i made the thread; because the people who think it's a problem don't seem to be willing to make it.

Anyone who knows me at all knows i like to help people. This isn't the first time people have said that they think zam has abandoned ffxi, and doesn't care about it anymore. It's understandable that zam doesn't want to hire anyone for ffxi. However i think the only reason this wasn't suggested before was because no one was aware that zam had volunteer moderators. I wasn't aware myself until the ask an admin thread when kao mentioned it, and wasn't aware that there actually was any at all, until just a hour or so ago, when i saw a few names on the staff bios page. I made the suggestion because it helps both zam and the ffxi posters. It would allow better moderation, which many ffxi posters want, and it won't cost zam much/anything, which is great for them.

The fact that it could potentially work against me never even crossed my mind, and i'm insulted that you came here for nothing more than that. I am not the only, or even the worst person in the ffxi forums, i just happen to be the most active one. There was a problem, and i saw a viable, cost effective solution, that most people were not aware of was even an option, so i shared it. I have never been known for hiding information just because it would benefit me to do so. That you are surprised by me posting this simply proves that you do not know me very well.

Additionally, i have to question whether 90% of it is because of me, or 90% of it is related to me. For example, this thread has been derailed and turned into a thread about what i do, but i did nothing to cause it. Yet i am frequently blamed for derailing every single thread to be about me. I won't deny that a lot of problems are caused because i am here, but not all of them are caused by me, so much as people's hatred of me.

Edited, Dec 17th 2010 6:46pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#7 Dec 17 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Additionally, i have to question whether 90% of it is because of me, or 90% of it is related to me. For example, this thread has been derailed and turned into a thread about what i do, but i did nothing to cause it. Yet i am frequently blamed for derailing every single thread to be about me. I won't deny that a lot of problems are caused because i am here, but not all of them are caused by me, so much as people's hatred of me.

To be fair, if you would quit making inflammatory remarks or generally just spamming, there probably wouldn't be nearly so much hatred of you, either. Whether it's what you do or how people react to you, the bottom line is still that you're directly or indirectly responsible for a **** of a lot of admin work.
#8 Dec 17 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Additionally, i have to question whether 90% of it is because of me, or 90% of it is related to me. For example, this thread has been derailed and turned into a thread about what i do, but i did nothing to cause it. Yet i am frequently blamed for derailing every single thread to be about me. I won't deny that a lot of problems are caused because i am here, but not all of them are caused by me, so much as people's hatred of me.

To be fair, if you would quit making inflammatory remarks or generally just spamming, there probably wouldn't be nearly so much hatred of you, either. Whether it's what you do or how people react to you, the bottom line is still that you're directly or indirectly responsible for a **** of a lot of admin work.


More people jsut want to attack Rog then he actually goe sout of his way to attack someone. Most of his threads lately have all derailed because someone who doesnt like him came in and started spouting crap, even though he did nothing.
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#9 Dec 17 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
Majivo wrote:
Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Additionally, i have to question whether 90% of it is because of me, or 90% of it is related to me. For example, this thread has been derailed and turned into a thread about what i do, but i did nothing to cause it. Yet i am frequently blamed for derailing every single thread to be about me. I won't deny that a lot of problems are caused because i am here, but not all of them are caused by me, so much as people's hatred of me.

To be fair, if you would quit making inflammatory remarks or generally just spamming, there probably wouldn't be nearly so much hatred of you, either. Whether it's what you do or how people react to you, the bottom line is still that you're directly or indirectly responsible for a **** of a lot of admin work.
What's all this work that's happening? Someone reads a report and the reported post, probably reads the previous couple of posts to put things in context, apparently decides nothing is wrong (nobody is stepping to tell him to tone it down/no ban), then moves on.

But hey, lets say that is a lot of work: Who is causing more work for the admins? The poster, or the person frivolously reporting posts just because they have already formed an opinion of someone?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#10 Dec 18 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why do we even have a report admin posts button? Seriously.

So yeah, while you can report admin posts apperently, I would postulate the therom that it would be in your best interests not to do so unless you really, truly think the admin in qiestion is doing something worth a ban. For one, its going to annoy whoever you reported and all of their staff, who will probably proceed to karma camp you into oblivion, but it also annoys all the other admins as we rush dilligintly to do our job only to find that someone is reporting admins for no apperent reason. In particular this is a pet peave of mine because it irritates the crap out of me when I ban someone for cause and then they go and write a nasty letter to one of my bosses and I have to go through the whole issue of why they were removed, etc.

Also in an unrelated note, we do have two volunteer moderators, they can be found on the staff bios page.
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#11 Dec 18 2010 at 5:32 AM Rating: Decent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Also in an unrelated note, we do have two volunteer moderators, they can be found on the staff bios page.


Assuming you mean this staff bios page, who on that list is the volunteers? Unless there's more than 1 staff bios page for some reason.
#12 Dec 18 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Overburn wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Also in an unrelated note, we do have two volunteer moderators, they can be found on the staff bios page.


Assuming you mean this staff bios page, who on that list is the volunteers? Unless there's more than 1 staff bios page for some reason.
BeanX, and someproteinguy; the only two listed as moderators.
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#13 Dec 18 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
Overburn wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Also in an unrelated note, we do have two volunteer moderators, they can be found on the staff bios page.


Assuming you mean this staff bios page, who on that list is the volunteers? Unless there's more than 1 staff bios page for some reason.
BeanX, and someproteinguy; the only two listed as moderators.


Forgot what we were talking about, only looked at the FFXI section then skimmed for the word volunteer.
#14 Dec 18 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Rog is only doing this because no one else would,


Reading the official responses I think its pretty obvious why nobody bothered, Zam is the Square Enix of the forum based fan sites.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 1:02pm by preludes
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#15 Dec 18 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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preludes wrote:
Quote:
Rog is only doing this because no one else would,


Reading the official responses I think its pretty obvious why nobody bothered, Zam is the Square Enix of the forum based fan sites.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 1:02pm by preludes


Hey! thats totally not fair. Every single game I've ever written (all two of them!) Has had a jump button! Even my tetris clone!
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#16 Dec 18 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
preludes wrote:
Quote:
Rog is only doing this because no one else would,


Reading the official responses I think its pretty obvious why nobody bothered, Zam is the Square Enix of the forum based fan sites.

Edited, Dec 18th 2010 1:02pm by preludes


Hey! thats totally not fair. Every single game I've ever written (all two of them!) Has had a jump button! Even my tetris clone!
Most Final Fantasy games do too! Well, not a button, but a command.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Jump

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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#17 Dec 18 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?


Out of curiousity, what percentage does it have to reach before he gets banned? 92%? 95%? I think these numbers should be within the community's reach.
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#18 Dec 18 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Good
Erecia wrote:
Pikko wrote:
Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?


Out of curiousity, what percentage does it have to reach before he gets banned? 92%? 95%? I think these numbers should be within the community's reach.
Out of curiousity [sic], what percentage of your head are you trying to cram into Pikko's behind?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#19 Dec 18 2010 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Erecia wrote:
Pikko wrote:
Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?


Out of curiousity, what percentage does it have to reach before he gets banned? 92%? 95%? I think these numbers should be within the community's reach.
Out of curiousity [sic], what percentage of your head are you trying to cram into Pikko's behind?


Ehhh... 10-15%, tops? Pikko's okay, but mostly I just like to see Rog squirm for what he has brought upon himself through a few months/years of genearl douche-baggery.
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#20 Dec 18 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
Erecia wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Erecia wrote:
Pikko wrote:
Do you know that like 90% of the XI reports are complaints about you?


Out of curiousity, what percentage does it have to reach before he gets banned? 92%? 95%? I think these numbers should be within the community's reach.
Out of curiousity [sic], what percentage of your head are you trying to cram into Pikko's behind?


Ehhh... 10-15%, tops? Pikko's okay, but mostly I just like to see Rog squirm for what he has brought upon himself through a few months/years of genearl douche-baggery.
Even though, when you chip away the crassness of his posts, he's actually being helpful? Do you want the best advice or the most friendly advice?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#21 Dec 18 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Even though, when you chip away the crassness of his posts, he's actually being helpful? Do you want the best advice or the most friendly advice?

FFXI is, as Rog said in the thread he linked, old as **** by now. All of this information is already out there. At this point, posters are going to turn towards the most friendly advice, yes, because it exists and has the same quality as anything being offered here.
#22 Dec 18 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#23 Dec 18 2010 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Ah, the old argument of "Be nice to n00bs" vs. "I'll post how I like"

Face it, if Rog were such a problem, he'd be banned. Stop trying to hang all your issues on one person. (And I hope Pikko's post was tongue-in-cheek...)

Honestly I have never seen either of the other two mods do anything in FFXI. I'd gladly offer up myself to do mod duty over there (I was a mod of my own forum, a mod on a few GuildPortal ones, as well as the Ken Burton Show forums), but I would be willing to bet good money that the admins would say **** NO so loudly that I'd here it all the way up here in the frozen wastes of Canadia Smiley: lol

But I'd agree that there needs to be more of a visible, tangible presence in the XI forums.
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#24 Dec 18 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?

The nice advice on another forum is the right advice. There are people out there who will deliver the exact same information without being an ******* about it.

Quote:
Face it, if Rog were such a problem, he'd be banned. Stop trying to hang all your issues on one person. (And I hope Pikko's post was tongue-in-cheek...)

If there were no spectrum in play here, sure. But it's not an instant "this guy did something wrong, ban him". You can be a problem without being banned, and you can be a problem who's quickly on the way to being banned.
#25 Dec 18 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?

The nice advice on another forum is the right advice. There are people out there who will deliver the exact same information without being an @#%^ about it.
I've tried that, then the same poster comes for the next piece. And the next. There are some who will take your advice as a jumping off point, and some who want you to spoonfeed them everything. Rog is of the school of thought that thinks that after being here for X years, when someone asks something like "Where's the AH in Bastok Markets?", you slap them with a trout as you point them in the right direction.

for me, it depends on my mood and how the question is asked. "Where is the AH in Bastok Markets?" will likely receive a politely worded reply, where as "were is the ah in bastok i need stuff" will likely have a bit of scorn heaped on...

Majivo wrote:
Quote:
Face it, if Rog were such a problem, he'd be banned. Stop trying to hang all your issues on one person. (And I hope Pikko's post was tongue-in-cheek...)

If there were no spectrum in play here, sure. But it's not an instant "this guy did something wrong, ban him". You can be a problem without being banned, and you can be a problem who's quickly on the way to being banned.
Kaolian moderates on the FFXI side. You've been here for a while, you should know better than that.

There are quite a few trolls living under the FFXI bridge (more now than ever), and despite their every post being a flame or jab at either FFXI, Alla, the mods, or a combination of the three, they are allowed to hang out. Rog is abrasive, but so is bsphil, so is jtftaru, and arguably, he's more knowledgeable than either of them.

Rog isn't flaming, breaking the filter, or annoying the mods more than anyone else.
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#26 Dec 19 2010 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?

The nice advice on another forum is the right advice. There are people out there who will deliver the exact same information without being an @#%^ about it.
The Hello Kitty Online forum?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#27 Dec 19 2010 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?

The nice advice on another forum is the right advice. There are people out there who will deliver the exact same information without being an @#%^ about it.
The Hello Kitty Online forum?


That response is a clear example of what people are talking about. It's pure antisocial, fratboy behavior for its own sake. Acting like a jerk just "because I can" (by the way, anyone who uses this phrase should expect a punch in the mouth from someone "because he/she can". Just saying).

I'm a few credits short of my Psychology degree, so I cannot venture a guess as to how the concept of civility has somehow been tied to a lack of masculinity, as the above quote implies. I can say, though, that it says a lot about the warped view people have about what's masculine these days.
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#28 Dec 19 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
The Hello Kitty Online forum?

Curiously enough, the FFXI forums (and possibly FFXIV now) are the only ones here which seem to feel this need to belittle and inform at the same time. Yet none of the other forums are lacking for knowledgeable posters. One has to wonder how much we really need these posters, and how much they love to convince us that we need them so they can continue to run rampant.
#29 Dec 19 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Good
AriesMCMLXXIII wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
So the nice advice is better than the right advice?

The nice advice on another forum is the right advice. There are people out there who will deliver the exact same information without being an @#%^ about it.
The Hello Kitty Online forum?


That response is a clear example of what people are talking about. It's pure antisocial, fratboy behavior for its own sake. Acting like a jerk just "because I can" (by the way, anyone who uses this phrase should expect a punch in the mouth from someone "because he/she can". Just saying).

I'm a few credits short of my Psychology degree, so I cannot venture a guess as to how the concept of civility has somehow been tied to a lack of masculinity, as the above quote implies. I can say, though, that it says a lot about the warped view people have about what's masculine these days.
Listen, professor, I wasn't calling anyone a girl.

I just don't understand why anyone would want bad info presented nicely, vs. good info from a douchbag.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#30 Dec 19 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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One has to wonder how much we really need these posters, and how much they love to convince us that we need them so they can continue to run rampant.
Eliminate all that doesn't agree with you? good plan? It worked out great in the '30s
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#31 Dec 19 2010 at 2:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
I just don't understand why anyone would want bad info presented nicely, vs. good info from a douchbag.

I just don't understand why anyone would pretend that such a dichotomy exists when, as I've already stated, that is not the case. You're being deliberately obtuse at this point, and judging from your last post, trolling.
#32 Dec 19 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Decent
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The amount of whining in this thread has reached a rather pathetic level.


Edited, Dec 19th 2010 4:25am by Turin
#33 Dec 19 2010 at 6:27 AM Rating: Good
Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
I just don't understand why anyone would want bad info presented nicely, vs. good info from a douchbag.

I just don't understand why anyone would pretend that such a dichotomy exists when, as I've already stated, that is not the case. You're being deliberately obtuse at this point, and judging from your last post, trolling.
No, cupcake, sometimes it really is one thing or the other. Don't expect someone's personality to change just to meet your needs. And really, contrary to what you may think, not everyone who disagrees with your, or even disagrees with the majority, is trolling. But feel free to toss out that card again anytime you have nothing better.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#34 Dec 19 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
No, cupcake, sometimes it really is one thing or the other. Don't expect someone's personality to change just to meet your needs. And really, contrary to what you may think, not everyone who disagrees with your, or even disagrees with the majority, is trolling. But feel free to toss out that card again anytime you have nothing better.

Pulling out **** Germany is pretty much the definition of trolling. So is refusing to listen to anything being said because you're afraid you might lose your precious license to be an unmitigated prick. But feel free to keep pretending that the world is black and white, and that you have to be right because you can't face the idea that someone else could know the things you think make you a valuable poster, and that they could be far less of an asshole about it.
#35 Dec 19 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Majivo wrote:
So is refusing to listen to anything being said because you're afraid you might lose your precious license to be an unmitigated prick.
Are you talking to steve? Really? I was going to stay out of this, but seriously, lol. He may not always be the nicest person, but i mean ****, usually he is. Even when the point he's trying to get across is "you're a @#%^ing ******", he still does it at least relatively respectfully.

Also, i am seriously disappoint in how badly a feedback thread has derailed, at the hands of an admin.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 12:57pm by ThePsychoticOne
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#36 Dec 19 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
The Hello Kitty Online forum?

Curiously enough, the FFXI forums (and possibly FFXIV now) are the only ones here which seem to feel this need to belittle and inform at the same time. Yet none of the other forums are lacking for knowledgeable posters. One has to wonder how much we really need these posters, and how much they love to convince us that we need them so they can continue to run rampant.
So, the FFXI posters belittle and inform at the same time, while other forums have posters who inform without belittling. They also have plenty of posters who belittle without informing.

Internet forums: serious @#%^ing business.

We should just have a Random Questions Thread that will be stickied and heavily moderated. This would prevent a ton of new threads from being created for simple one-shot questions that "veteran" posters are sick of seeing and answering. Give volunteer moderators the ability to "nuke" a post in the RQT without karma implications (require that these volunteer mods input some sort of explanation for nuking a post), and copy these to the site admins so they can review the actions taken. If someone repeatedly derails or trolls the thread, hand out mutes or other disciplinary actions.

This would simultaneously provide a more heavily-moderated place where new posters can ask questions and also keep the main board open to the more intense discussions.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 1:01pm by Spoonless
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#37 Dec 19 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Spoonless the Silent wrote:
Internet forums: serious @#%^ing business.

To the people running it, yes, it is. I don't give two ***** about what goes on over in FFXI main, but it's asinine for people to claim that scaring away new posters isn't a problem for a website which depends on ads for the majority of its revenue. I couldn't care either way what happens to Rog, I just stepped in because of the illogic at play here.
#38 Dec 19 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Majivo wrote:
Spoonless the Silent wrote:
Internet forums: serious @#%^ing business.

To the people running it, yes, it is. I don't give two sh*ts about what goes on over in FFXI main, but it's asinine for people to claim that scaring away new posters isn't a problem for a website which depends on ads for the majority of its revenue. I couldn't care either way what happens to Rog, I just stepped in because of the illogic at play here.
I noticed you didn't respond to my statement about the other forums having plenty of ******** as well. I mean, you certainly wanted to make a point that the other forums aren't lacking in knowledgeable posters, but it's not like they are lacking in ********, uninformed posters, and elitist pricks either.
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#39 Dec 19 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Spoonless the Silent wrote:
I noticed you didn't respond to my statement about the other forums having plenty of @#%^s as well. I mean, you certainly wanted to make a point that the other forums aren't lacking in knowledgeable posters, but it's not like they are lacking in @#%^s, uninformed posters, and elitist pricks either.

I didn't respond because my point was that you can be knowledgeable and nice at the same time. If those other people are being a problem, then they should be moderated as well. But for the most part, the karma system is doing its job in those places. The other reason I didn't answer was because I thought that was more of a sidenote on your part than the meat of the post, so my mistake.
#40 Dec 19 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
Majivo wrote:
Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
No, cupcake, sometimes it really is one thing or the other. Don't expect someone's personality to change just to meet your needs. And really, contrary to what you may think, not everyone who disagrees with your, or even disagrees with the majority, is trolling. But feel free to toss out that card again anytime you have nothing better.

Pulling out **** Germany is pretty much the definition of trolling. So is refusing to listen to anything being said because you're afraid you might lose your precious license to be an unmitigated prick. But feel free to keep pretending that the world is black and white, and that you have to be right because you can't face the idea that someone else could know the things you think make you a valuable poster, and that they could be far less of an @#%^ about it.
I made the comparison to the 30's because that is more or less what you are advocating. You don't like Rog, therefor, he should be gone. And, no, I don't think the world is black and white, but I do believe that black and white do exist, and sometimes that's all there is in a given situation. But, whatever, you know it all anyways.

Author's Note: I altered the quoted post so that I, too, was not breaking the language filter. I hope nobody uses the report button on said post.

Edited, Dec 19th 2010 2:12pm by Lubriderm
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#41 Dec 19 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Lubriderm the Fussy wrote:
I made the comparison to the 30's because that is more or less what you are advocating. You don't like Rog, therefor, he should be gone. And, no, I don't think the world is black and white, but I do believe that black and white do exist, and sometimes that's all there is in a given situation. But, whatever, you know it all anyways.

Once again, being deliberately obtuse. I never argued to get rid of Rog because I "don't like" him. I said that if anyone - not Rog specifically, but anyone - is being such a problem that they're costing a lot of moderation time, it's in the site's best interest to get rid of that person. How you manage to equate a simple question of cost vs revenue with racism and bigotry is beyond me, but keep pretending that I'm somehow persecuting Rog due to some personal vendetta I have.
#42 Dec 19 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
Gee, hunny, and here I thought Kao was doing a good enough job of more or less running the site without your help. Guess I was wrong. What about all the bugs that Rog finds? Should he also be banned for using up programmer time?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#43 Dec 19 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
Oh, I missed this gem:
Quote:
I don't give two sh*ts about what goes on over in FFXI main
Obviously you don't, that's you're posting again and again in a thread about it's moderation. That's closer to trolling than the near Godwin's that I used.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#44 Dec 19 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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You can't legitimately be this stupid, right? How many times do I have to say it's not about Rog in particular before you quit shoving your head up his ***?
#45 Dec 19 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
It would be hilarious if a person in this thread stepped on a hepatitis needle. Not anyone in particular, of course. I guess some people could draw conclusions, but putting this in the context of the thread, but then again, putting Majivo's posts into the context of this thread, on would assume she is talking about a specific person.

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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#46 Dec 19 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Pikko wrote:
I just find it ironic that most of the moderation work we do is because of you[...]


Perfect example of a typical thread pattern in =10:

Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
catwho wrote:
Actually, I just wanted to say that clean installs are a headache that PC users have been dealing with for years. New computer? Clean install time. Graphics issues? Clean install time. Upgraded from XP to Vista, or Vista to 7, or XP to 7? Clean install time. Quit and come back? Clean install time.

We've developed ways to get around a lot of it, but at some more or another pretty much every PC user of the game has had to do a full uninstall and reinstall of the entire game and all the expansions. We've griped about doing it, but there's never been any expectation from us that SE is going to "do" anything about it.

A clean install is your fix. It works, its been verified, and people who did it are playing right now.
I have never once reinstalled ffxi, between 3 computers (soon to be 4), and probably a dozen hdd reformats.


xypin wrote:
Weren't you aware? We all just naturally assume Rog is the exception to everything we say here. Everyone just got sick of following everything up with "except Rog." Now it's just an understood rule here. Get with the times, man.


Here, you see TPO making an observation that he's never had to reinstall the game on his PC. He doesn't insult anyone; he just says that he's never had to do a reinstall on PC.

Xypin comes along and derails the thread by turning it into something about TPO. Of course, if it continues, all the reports you get are going to be about TPO derailing the thread or being a general *******, but he didn't even do anything. This **** happens all the time, and from Pikko's comments, she's pretty oblivious to it.
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#47 Dec 19 2010 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
Spoonless the Silent wrote:
Pikko wrote:
I just find it ironic that most of the moderation work we do is because of you[...]


Perfect example of a typical thread pattern in =10:

Grand Master Leatherworker ThePsychoticO wrote:
catwho wrote:
Actually, I just wanted to say that clean installs are a headache that PC users have been dealing with for years. New computer? Clean install time. Graphics issues? Clean install time. Upgraded from XP to Vista, or Vista to 7, or XP to 7? Clean install time. Quit and come back? Clean install time.

We've developed ways to get around a lot of it, but at some more or another pretty much every PC user of the game has had to do a full uninstall and reinstall of the entire game and all the expansions. We've griped about doing it, but there's never been any expectation from us that SE is going to "do" anything about it.

A clean install is your fix. It works, its been verified, and people who did it are playing right now.
I have never once reinstalled ffxi, between 3 computers (soon to be 4), and probably a dozen hdd reformats.


xypin wrote:
Weren't you aware? We all just naturally assume Rog is the exception to everything we say here. Everyone just got sick of following everything up with "except Rog." Now it's just an understood rule here. Get with the times, man.


Here, you see TPO making an observation that he's never had to reinstall the game on his PC. He doesn't insult anyone; he just says that he's never had to do a reinstall on PC.

Xypin comes along and derails the thread by turning it into something about TPO. Of course, if it continues, all the reports you get are going to be about TPO derailing the thread or being a general *******, but he didn't even do anything. This sh*t happens all the time, and from Pikko's comments, she's pretty oblivious to it she's just another one causing the problem.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#48 Dec 19 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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lol internet drama.
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#49 Dec 19 2010 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alright, I'm going to leave this unlocked for now, but lets try to keep the personal attacks at a 0 level. The feedback forum is for reporting, giving feedback, and reasoned debate within limits. If it goes to a full on flame fest i'll shut it down.

Quote:
There are quite a few trolls living under the FFXI bridge (more now than ever), and despite their every post being a flame or jab at either FFXI, Alla, the mods, or a combination of the three, they are allowed to hang out. Rog is abrasive, but so is bsphil, so is jtftaru, and arguably, he's more knowledgeable than either of them.


Banning of users is something we try to avoid. Think of your user base as a forest. Once you cut all the big trees down, it takes along time for the little trees to grow big enough to replace them. Even if said trees are crass, cantankerous and sometimes act out. Once you ban a user, you don't get that user back. So you really have to weigh everything and determine what the pros and cons are of that act. Sometimes that calculation occurs quickly. If you are spamming a forum with new threads to try and disrupt the site, you are gone immidiatly, I don't care who you are or how many posts you have. If on the other hand you are a jerk to people in the FFXI forum, I'm probably not going to ban you for that, but I am going to laugh in your face if you ever complain to me about being karma camped.

The forum rules are here: You can also find them at the bottom of every forum page: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/Forum_Rules
In that document we outline what will will get you banned.

Taking ThePsychoticOne as an example since he started the thread, if you look at his posts in a typical thread, the rates are about evenly split with a slight downward trend. That indicates to me that about half the people who care one way or the other think he should stay. The other half are annoyed at him and wish he would go somewhere else. Thats really not a strong overwhelming majority one way or the other.

We do keep a log of moderator actions on each and every account. ThePsychoticOne is probably up there amongst the highest number of administrator actions on an account who have not been banned. He also has some notations for being particularily helpful in finding bugs and site issues and reporing them. Something which is of use not only to us, but to the forum users as a whole. So the one does somewhat mitigate the other in my mind at least. Nevertheless if he were to do something to cross one of those lines in the forum rules at this point, we would probably ban him because he is out of chances. I think he enjoys the nuclear brinksmanship aspect of it though. Seeing how far he can push things. I get it, but I also know that really ****** off administrators. This story can be repeated about several of the other forum users in FFXI who have been named.

I get where Pikko is coming from too. She sees a user who makes more work for her on a regular basis. One that does not fit her ideal view of the forum. Who she sees as a disrupting element that is preventing new users from finding and enjoying the forum, and prevents people from posting out of trepedition. FFXI has had some ******* insane posters over the years, Godraiden being a perfect example, and people do react differently when a very strong forum personality ruins their day in a thread. I guess strong may not be the best word there, but rather "forceful". If you knew that one jerk who always ruins your day was going to be at your office every single day, you might develope somewhat of an aversion too.

The hardest lesson to learn as an administrator though is we can't just remove people becuase they annoy us. Or rather we shouldn't. When you remove a longstanding forum persona, you change the dynamics of the forum. In most cases, your secondary annoyances now become your primary annoyances, and some of the people who championed having that person removed tend to feel they themselves are untouchable after that, and proceed to fall into the very same roles they rebelled against in the first place. Others find that with their nemisis vanquished, they lose interest in the forum. People watch dramatic movies for a reason. The boring ones don't do too well at box office...

I've banned more users from these forums than anyone else. I actually have a higher ban count than post count if you factor in the thousands upon thousands of PM spammer accounts that we had to weed out. I like to think that I have a fair amount of experiance with this topic, so please trust me when I say that unleashing Karmageddon on the 4-5 "problem children" in FFXI without them doing something worthy of being banned specifically at that time is not the way to proceed. You get backlash from users who wonder if they are next, you get people leaving because the people they came to watch in the zoo aren't there anymore, and you get an overall less entertaining forum.

I'm not sure what the answer here is, but we're saving the ban hammer for a last resort.

Administrator Kaolian

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#50 Dec 19 2010 at 11:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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My apologies for not returning to this thread until now, but I actually looked at it at the beginning of the weekend and had to step out right after that to buy groceries, then pick up my dad and from there, I've been at my computer very little all weekend.

The background behind my initial reply was that I feel like the forums are in their current state because of a select few individuals, one of the most prominent being, of course, Rog. Pretty much any report for XI that I've seen that isn't about a RMT post or blatant spam has been regarding Rog and the reports are occasionally tagged with stories of how he's a blight on the forums and how they feel like they can't get away from him too, because he posts everywhere. How they hate the sight of any of his posts, no matter the content.

This is pretty much how I felt when he took it upon himself to "represent" the very forum he's helped ruin (not only by posting, but by making it a miserable experience to moderate). It's like if my kids came in tracking mud all over the carpet and then came to tell me that I should clean it up because my in-laws are coming over soon and they won't like it. Sure, it's my job to clean it up, but because they were the ones that did it, it'll completely **** me off. Had it come from someone else, I'd never have posted what I did.

That aside, the volunteer moderators thing is an issue I'm well aware of and if we could have them, rest assured, I'd have been whining and moaning and groaning until we had them. Nizdaar can back up that (the whining part). The fact is, it can't happen yet. Until then, my advice is still the same as it always was, keep reporting. Just don't report silly stuff, like calling someone a pinhead or insinuating someone has low intelligence. This type of posting, while technically flaming, is not exactly the kind of flaming we reprimand posters for.
#51 Dec 20 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Pikko wrote:
This is pretty much how I felt when he took it upon himself to "represent" the very forum he's helped ruin
I read around 99.9% of the posts made in =10. I may not always agree with most people there, but i absolutely know basically what most posters there think. It's kind of hard to miss when i spend more time here than i do doing anything else.
Quote:
The background behind my initial reply was that I feel like the forums are in their current state because of a select few individuals, one of the most prominent being, of course, Rog. Pretty much any report for XI that I've seen that isn't about a RMT post or blatant spam has been regarding Rog and the reports are occasionally tagged with stories of how he's a blight on the forums and how they feel like they can't get away from him too, because he posts everywhere. How they hate the sight of any of his posts, no matter the content.
Considering you do not spend any time in =10, and i've only been reported some 30 times (admittedly that is far more than anyone else, but still, i have 8.5k posts in =10 alone (2.6k since july, in which time you've made 23) you can't possibly know what really goes on based on so few posts), i really don't understand how you could know that. As spoonless mentioned before, I get blamed for derailing threads left and right, but the fact of the matter is, i very rarely do so. I may help keep threads off the rails often, but only after someone else derailed it first. You have perfectly demonstrated exactly what happens in =10 all the time, with your first posts in this thread. I make a post that couldn't possibly offend anyone (or even one that might, really it doesn't matter), and someone who hates me decides that instead of saying something useful, they're going to take a stab at me. And just look what happened. Out of 50 posts, only like 3 of them are on topic. It took exactly one post for this thread to get entirely out of control. And i mostly stayed out of it this time, AND it was in =3 which is not a forum most people that hate me frequent.

Take a look at how this thread spiraled out of control, in a thread where the only people who seem to hate me are you, erecia, and posisbly majivo. The majority of the rest of the posts in this thread are by my friends. Just think about how this thread would be different if it were in =10, where there are much more people that would have joined in to say they hate me.

Here's some examples if you care:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=129246078726611520 I make one statement about sam, which wasn't even false, and there are people calling for me to be banned. I made a single post entirely on topic, and while i'm not even around, the thread gets derailed because people don't like me.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=1292749437137214643#msg1292790618210562812 Catwho makes a statement i thought was entirely untrue, so i responded as such. Then Xypin decides to take a stab at me, and then later RDD does as well.

There's two instances of it happening, and that's just from the first page. This really does happen all the time. Just because a lot of people seem to think that i like to constantly derail threads, doesn't mean it's true. I may be mean, but i am not the only one, and i very rarely derail threads, even unintentionally, let alone intentionally.

It has become acceptable to attack me for anything i say. And while won't complain that people do to me exactly what i do to them, i do have a problem with you thinking there are only a few people causing problems in =10. It is a widespread problem, among a large amount of users. If you recall from the wegames thread that resulted in you muting me for a week, there was even a person who registered an account, just to say how much he hated me. It really isn't just a few problem posters. When a large number of posters frequently attack someone even when they do nothing wrong, isn't that a problem, regardless of what the person does other times? Why is it ok for a large number of people to be mean to a single person, but when a single person is mean to a large number of people, that's completely unacceptable? It just seems hypocritical to me.

Edited, Dec 20th 2010 2:05am by ThePsychoticOne
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