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#1 Sep 12 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
Recently a post was made in the XIV boards announcing the release of the Windower for XIV. This was a hot topic for XI's Windower because it represents a ToS violation simply on the basis of the user employing an application that interfaces directly with the game client. I'm sure I don't need to rehash the points pro/con of the debate here, but suffice it so say I was a bit surprised to read of the admin position on it for XIV. At first I didn't really care, but now every time I read a post that mentions the Windower, it irks me. After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.

SE may not be exactly generous with perks and exclusives to ZAM in exchange for the effort made to accommodate their wishes regarding such things as NDAs and other taboo issues, but that's largely irrelevant. What happens if, somewhere down the line, someone reads on ZAM about this great and wonderful Windower for XIV and does a Google search for it only to be led to a site that offers a delicious keylogger as a "free bonus" with the installation of the Windower application?

I'm going to be honest...is ZAM really that hard up for users that now anything goes? We're part of the solution or we're part of the problem. I took a couple of months away from the forums because it was made clear to me that some admins were of the impression that I was spearheading a problem. I can't envision myself continuing to financially support a site that turns a blind eye to these kinds of things because it might **** a few people off. (I know, I know, my $3/month or whatever it works out to is sure to be the end of all things ZAM...call it an issue of principle.)

Seems to me like it might be better to nip this in the bud now before people grow accustomed to open, supportive discussion of things that violate the ToS and could snowball into bigger problems later on. If we help teach the community now that unsanctioned third party applications are acceptable, it will not end well.
#2 Sep 12 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.
wtf does windower have to do with bots?
#3 Sep 12 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Default
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.
wtf does windower have to do with bots?


The greatest argument in favor of the Windower for XI, despite its implications regarding the ToS, was that it allowed you to tab out of the game. I never used the Windower for XI, but even I found that to be a pretty compelling argument because I always resented having to log out of the game just to use the other applications on my PC (like a web browser for looking up quests and synthesis recipes, for example).

And yet, when SE added the functionality to run XI windowed, the windower remained popular. You and I both know that it remained popular because of all the various different plugins it allowed, like TParty, extended macros, etc. Plugins that gave an advantage to people who used the Windower relative to those who did not. Keep in mind that when it comes to things like a ToS, we don't get to argue that it's okay because the developer should have included these things, or that it's not a game breaking advantage, or any of that. And when you start teaching people that third party applications are okay, the next step becomes things like NASA and the like.

I'm not saying that ZAM prohibiting the supportive discussion of third party applications will, in of itself, prevent more egregious cheating down the line. I'm just saying that for a premier site to be indifferent to the terms of service laid down by the individual developers is a questionable approach.
#4 Sep 12 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And when you start teaching people that third party applications are okay, the next step becomes things like NASA and the like.
Holy ******* slippery slope.


Also, XI's windowed mode is ******, and doesn't even work right. Windower is preferable even if you don't intend to use any of the plugins (which IS the main reason it's still so popular as you said, but yeah, it'd still be used either way).
#5 Sep 12 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And when you start teaching people that third party applications are okay, the next step becomes things like NASA and the like.
Holy @#%^ing slippery slope.


Also, XI's windowed mode is sh*tty, and doesn't even work right. Windower is preferable even if you don't intend to use any of the plugins (which IS the main reason it's still so popular as you said, but yeah, it'd still be used either way).


I agree that one aspect of the argument is a slippery slope. It's like pot as a "gateway drug". There are plenty of other reasons for why I don't feel people should be able to openly discuss the Windower here. But as far as the gateway, for starters XIV is in beta with fully supported windowed mode. It's a bit buggy, but hey...beta and all. So right there the primary reason for the windower is moot. So then we get into a position where the only reason to use the windower is for the plugins and enhanced functionality. In short, the Windower allows people who are indifferent to the ToS to do things that those who choose to respect the ToS can't do. Whether it's minor tweaks and conveniences to significant benefits in playing the game, it's still an advantage.

We don't know if SE is going to be shipping XIV retail with a client side application sniffer the likes of Warden. Would be a shame to see people banned/suspended in the first weeks/months of service for using unsanctioned third party apps that they first learned about here on ZAM, wouldn't it?
#6 Sep 12 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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The following is just my opinion, and doesn't reflect any official policies on anything.

FFXI is the only game for which we enforced a complete ban on discussing 3rd-party apps and the like. For the rest, we simply bar outright hacks and bots. For some, we've even developed our own applications for data collection. As far as I know, this hasn't resulted in a downward spiral into the abyss.

Quote:
We don't know if SE is going to be shipping XIV retail with a client side application sniffer the likes of Warden. Would be a shame to see people banned/suspended in the first weeks/months of service for using unsanctioned third party apps that they first learned about here on ZAM, wouldn't it?


It certainly would be unfortunate if people were banned without warning for using something innocuous. Then again, if we barred their discussion entirely, you wouldn't even be able to use the forums to warn people of the risk.

I don't think squelching discussion here entirely is going to make a difference. Anyone who really wants to can probably figure out how to google for "<game> hacks" and there's nothing you or we can do about that.

At the end of the day, people have to be responsible for their own actions.
#7 Sep 12 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Decent
rale wrote:
At the end of the day, people have to be responsible for their own actions.
This. I don't think anyone downloads programs like that thinking they're allowed to do so. They know, they just don't care, because the benefit outweighs the small risk of anything happening because of it. And besides, it's not like anyone will lose their accounts over something that isn't a major cheat, and people will survive a 1-3 day suspension, after which if they get banned, it's their own damn fault.
#8 Sep 12 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Default
rale wrote:
The following is just my opinion, and doesn't reflect any official policies on anything.

FFXI is the only game for which we enforced a complete ban on discussing 3rd-party apps and the like. For the rest, we simply bar outright hacks and bots. For some, we've even developed our own applications for data collection. As far as I know, this hasn't resulted in a downward spiral into the abyss.

Quote:
We don't know if SE is going to be shipping XIV retail with a client side application sniffer the likes of Warden. Would be a shame to see people banned/suspended in the first weeks/months of service for using unsanctioned third party apps that they first learned about here on ZAM, wouldn't it?


It certainly would be unfortunate if people were banned without warning for using something innocuous. Then again, if we barred their discussion entirely, you wouldn't even be able to use the forums to warn people of the risk.

I don't think squelching discussion here entirely is going to make a difference. Anyone who really wants to can probably figure out how to google for "<game> hacks" and there's nothing you or we can do about that.

At the end of the day, people have to be responsible for their own actions.


I agree that people are responsible for their own decisions/actions. I'm sure you'd agree that the actions of others can also contribute to the decisions people make. If you've got a forum where something like a Windower application is discussed with casual abandon, could that not lead someone to the conclusion that it's a sanctioned application? SE is one of the only MMO developers today who doesn't provide for the use of third party addons for things like UI tweaks. So with SE being an exception in that category in addition to large scale XI community acceptance of the Windower, I don't think we'd be entirely accurate to assume that Joe Average coming along and deciding to track down and use the Windower "knew better" (to coin a phrase). We already know that there's an alarming number of readers and posters here who have selective attention spans.

Unsanctioned applications never help a game in the long run. And supporting an attitude of indifference to a developer's ToS doesn't help a game community.

I was happy to see the addition of a couple more admins to the roster of folks keeping an eye on the XIV boards. I think it was a sound decision, and I also think that the fact the XIV boards need that kind of presence to keep from having them degrade into chaotic hell is rather telling.

And of course, you have to know that if ThePsychoticOne is eager to jump on board with the defense of something, there's gotta be something wrong with it.
#9 Sep 12 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Unsanctioned applications never help a game in the long run. And supporting an attitude of indifference to a developer's ToS doesn't help a game community.
Yes they do. If it wasn't for windower, me and tons of other people would have quit xi a long time ago.
#10 Sep 12 2010 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I was happy to see the addition of a couple more admins to the roster of folks keeping an eye on the XIV boards. I think it was a sound decision, and I also think that the fact the XIV boards need that kind of presence to keep from having them degrade into chaotic hell is rather telling.

Actually, those boards were really great while you were gone. I don't know what they're like now, as I haven't browsed there for a while, but the idea that they were in any danger of "degrading into chaotic hell" is completely misguided and a horrible misrepresentation of the individuals who frequent that board.
#11REDACTED, Posted: Sep 12 2010 at 8:28 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Really? There's a lot more flaming and general idiocy on those boards now than there was before I left. A lot more. Let's not mess around...people publicly acknowledge on the XI boards that they need a lot more admin attention than other ZAM game forums, and guess who migrated to the XIV boards? That's right...the XI community. So if they're publicly acknowledging it and I'm observing it, just how much weight do you think your defense has?
#12 Sep 12 2010 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Quote:
Unsanctioned applications never help a game in the long run. And supporting an attitude of indifference to a developer's ToS doesn't help a game community.
Yes they do. If it wasn't for windower, me and tons of other people would have quit xi a long time ago.
And you and "tons of others" actually leaving would have sent a much louder message to SE about just how well they were responding to their customers' concerns than sulking around and ******** on forums day in and day out for years, wouldn't it?
So basically you're saying having lots of people quit (Not even all at once either) is going to help the game? Really? How is that? People leaving doesn't send any message at all, unless they do it all at once.
#13 Sep 12 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Default
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Quote:
Unsanctioned applications never help a game in the long run. And supporting an attitude of indifference to a developer's ToS doesn't help a game community.
Yes they do. If it wasn't for windower, me and tons of other people would have quit xi a long time ago.
And you and "tons of others" actually leaving would have sent a much louder message to SE about just how well they were responding to their customers' concerns than sulking around and ******** on forums day in and day out for years, wouldn't it?
So basically you're saying having lots of people quit (Not even all at once either) is going to help the game? Really? How is that? People leaving doesn't send any message at all, unless they do it all at once.


There's one segment of the population that is inclined to say, "If you don't like something, and you don't need to be doing it, the best course of action is to keep doing it and just ***** up a storm at every opportunity."

There's another segment of the population that is inclined to say, "If you don't like something, and you don't need to be doing it, the best course of action is to stop doing it."

You know what gets the attention of big business? When they start making less and less money over time. We all know just how little SE infrequently SE visited the Feedback and Suggestion forums for XI. ******** on ZAM didn't make XI any better. People leave MMOs all the time for many different reasons. Generally speaking, the people leaving are replaced by new faces and people returning. If more people are leaving than signing on as new customers or returning, things tend to change. That's the same with any business. When they watch their returns steadily shrinking quarter after quarter and year after year, they start taking notice pretty quick. They start making changes. Then, having spoken with your money instead of your typing fingers, you take a second look at the game after hearing about all these changes the devs made to try to stop the bleeding and hey...better game.

So yes, long term, having lots of people leave because the devs aren't keeping them happy is better for the game. (Unless the devs do nothing, in which case it's no longer your problem because you've left.)
#14 Sep 12 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
Except that I LIKE FFXI. I enjoy it. I really do. I wouldn't still be playing it since 2003 if i didn't. However, without windower it is just too damn frustrating for a variety of reasons (equip changed spam, /recast macro spam, needing 4-6 macros to cast a single spell, etc), and isn't worth it. Windower makes the game much more enjoyable.
#15 Sep 12 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Default
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Except that I LIKE FFXI. I enjoy it. I really do. I wouldn't still be playing it since 2003 if i didn't. However, without windower it is just too damn frustrating for a variety of reasons (equip changed spam, /recast macro spam, needing 4-6 macros to cast a single spell, etc), and isn't worth it. Windower makes the game much more enjoyable.


So in other words, what you're saying is that the game on its own is not very good. There are parts of it that you enjoy, but there are also enough parts of it in its native state that, if you had to deal with them, would be enough to make you leave the game. So instead of honoring the End User License Agreement you agreed to, you opted to operate outside of it and continue to pay for a service that you would have otherwise canceled. And so, apparently, did a great many other XI players. I wonder if SE would have done more to address the glaring issues in XI if all of those people had decided to err in favor of integrity and canceled their subscriptions. I kind of think SE would have felt compelled to sit up and take notice.

And now here we are. SE hasn't even had a chance to do anything wrong with the retail version of the game yet and the XI expats are already lining up to circumvent the ToS. They aren't even paying for the game yet. They've got nothing invested in it aside from enthusiasm. And oddly enough, discussion of the Windower warrants no-go status in the XI boards but the XIV boards get the blind eye treatment. Doesn't quite make sense to me.
#16 Sep 12 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.
wtf does windower have to do with bots?

Absolutely nothing, but some people are just too stupid to be able to tell the difference.

As a side note to Aurelius, camping three HNMs is not and has never been the sole endgame content of FFXI. If you want people to give a damn about your opinion, it would really help if you could manage not to come off as a closeminded moron when you try to express it.
#17 Sep 12 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Default
Turin wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.
wtf does windower have to do with bots?

Absolutely nothing, but some people are just too stupid to be able to tell the difference.

As a side note to Aurelius, camping three HNMs is not and has never been the sole endgame content of FFXI. If you want people to give a damn about your opinion, it would really help if you could manage not to come off as a closeminded moron when you try to express it.


If you have a point to bring to the table for discussion, by all means. If the best you have to offer is namecalling and QQ, don't post.
#18 Sep 12 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Turin wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After watching the XI endgame scene destroyed by bots and third party applications, the last thing I expected to see here was a blind eye turned to the discussion of third party applications for a game still in beta.
wtf does windower have to do with bots?

Absolutely nothing, but some people are just too stupid to be able to tell the difference.

As a side note to Aurelius, camping three HNMs is not and has never been the sole endgame content of FFXI. If you want people to give a damn about your opinion, it would really help if you could manage not to come off as a closeminded moron when you try to express it.


If you have a point to bring to the table for discussion, by all means. If the best you have to offer is namecalling and QQ, don't post.


My point, that I'm particularly surprised that you missed by the way, is that making broad generalizations coupled with conflating two completely different types of programs with completely differnt purposes, together with a generally whiny tone is not the best way to make an argument.
#19 Sep 12 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Decent
Turin wrote:
My point, that I'm particularly surprised that you missed by the way, is that making broad generalizations coupled with conflating two completely different types of programs with completely differnt purposes, together with a generally whiny tone is not the best way to make an argument.


I don't see myself making too many broad generalizations, if any at all.

The FFXI endgame community was corrupt as hell. Maybe shifting the focus to instanced content helped alleviate something like that, but it never ceases to amaze me how angelic everyone pretends to be while simultaneously comprising far and away the most backwards endgame community I've experienced in any game. It's like they forget how easy it is to find cached LS forum pages where people are trying to collect donations to cover thee $2000+ license fee for the latest and greatest bot. Kind of makes it hard to argue that nobody really cared about the world spawn HNMs, doesn't it? Since we're on the subject of taking people seriously, I'm always wary of anyone who jumps into a discussion around the Windower issue with guns blazing. Why so defensive?

The fact of the matter is, the Windower creates a rift between those who use it and those who don't. Towards the end of my days in XI, a friend of mine kept bugging me to apply to the endgame shell he was a part of, so I did. My application was denied on the grounds that they weren't accepting any more Rangers under any circumstances. Three days later another Ranger I knew applied and the next day he was given a pearl. Wondering if it was a gear issue, or a reputation issue, or why they'd flat out lie to me about not accepting any more rangers I got in touch with my friend. You know what he told me? That my application was declined because I didn't use the Windower. Because I didn't use the Windower, I couldn't avail myself of the benefits of the distance plugin, and it was the opinion of the shell's leadership that RNG had become too difficult to play and too inconsistent without it. They were afraid that if they started telling people that their application was declined because the applicant didn't use the WIndower + plugins that sooner or later someone was going to rat them out to SE and they'd get banned.

Before merit parties abandoned skillchains altogether, I would get routinely ******* out for botching a skillchain because nobody was reporting TP, so I'd fire off a Slugshot when I had the TP to do so. They were expecting me to have TParty and because I didn't and they weren't reporting TP the "old" way, I had no idea when they were about to WS.

So let's not pretend that the Windower doesn't create consequences in-game for people who choose not to use it. And I'm sure nobody would be so ridiculous as to suggest that the grief I got was my fault for the choice I made. ("Everyone's doing it! You should too!")
#20 Sep 18 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Decent
It's baaa-aaack.

On the front page.

Discussing such delicious issues as, "We know it could wind up being a back door for keyloggers and trojans so we're trying to be careful" and "Hurry up and get to work on those plugins!"

Says a lot about the general attitude of the community when someone can decree that they're paying for the service (in beta?) and SE isn't fixing the issues (in beta?) and they don't get karma bombed to hell for being ridiculous, doesn't it?

I didn't realize XIVCore is actually hosting developer discussion on the issue. Mind you, being the site that involved a video of an admin in spandex biker shorts slamming a pie in his face after being exposed for trying to sell beta keys, I don't really see them as being the kind of site with a whole lot of integrity to preserve. I like to think ZAM is a little different in that regard.
#21 Sep 19 2010 at 3:17 PM Rating: Decent
Okay then. Rather than pester and nitpick every few days for the next several months, let me just finish with this...

"Because it violates the ToS" is a pretty pedantic reason for anything on its own. Grey areas and all that.

I had thought that given at least one admin here has played XI for a number of years that they would have a big-picture take on not only the benefits of the Windower but also some of the potential consequences to the community. I've indicated at least two of those, but to briefly clarify:

The LS I was refused admission to because I didn't use the Windower was, at the time, one of only four NA endgame shells on the server that was really accomplishing anything. Of those four, one was notorious for atrocious behavior, one had obscene time requirements ("We need you to camp Fafhogg's pop timer from 2am until he spawns" was a line one of my friends got) and the other I had just left (short version: people who had contributed financially to the license fee on the bot they wanted got loot priority). So it's not like I had a ton of options, and having those options narrowed because I chose not to use something that I technically/pedantically wasn't supposed to be using kind of sucked.

And then, just to reiterate, being treated poorly in groups because it was widely assumed that everyone was using the Windower and as such, had access to information that someone who didn't use it wouldn't have (ie. party member TP).

I'm sure some would say the Windower and its impact is harmless to the community. And they'd be wrong, because anything that exists outside of the rules and creates any sort of consequence for those who prefer to just be good sports and play nice can't be labeled as harmless.

And since there has been no "official" response here since I originally posted the concern a week ago, I have to assume the, "Ignore and hope he goes away" method is being employed in dealing with the situation. Of course, the alternative would be to post an official, public statement that discussion of unsanctioned third party apps and other "harmless" ToS violations is kosher (which may or may not go over so well if a developer liaison were to come across it)

OR

an official response saying that if the ToS doesn't allow it, ZAM won't allow supportive discussion of it, either. That would inevitably lead to debates and nuked threads and outrage and people choosing to cry and whine on BG/FFXIVCore instead of here.

Silence is a response. And in the absence of anything to the contrary, I will interpret ZAM's take on the issue as, "We don't really care if it has a negative impact on any particular segment of a game's community if prohibiting it will result in people choosing to discuss the game elsewhere."

Fair enough. Just as long as we're clear. Thanks anyways.


Edited, Sep 19th 2010 2:24pm by Aurelius
#22 Sep 19 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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You're a douche, we get it.
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#23 Sep 20 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
You're a douche, we get it.


I don't know, seems like a valid complaint to me. I remember my bygone days of being in =10 while the windower debate raged on and on. Reading about people getting booted from groups or linkshells because they don't want to use a third party app seems pretty despicable, and I'm so glad I don't play that game anymore. Considering the itnerest in yet another third party app, I'm even more glad I have no interest in XIV.
#24 Sep 20 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Good
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I was just calling Aurelius a douche, because that's what he is. It doesn't matter that he may or may not have a valid point, his way of presenting it always ends up making him look like an ***.

Also, why is there a need to blame Zam and other forums for the idiotic behaviour in-game? So what if you got kicked out of a group/linkshell for not using the Windower.
Yay, you now know X number of idiots, and no longer have to deal with them.

Edited, Sep 20th 2010 10:43am by Kirby
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#25 Sep 20 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
I was just calling Aurelius a douche, because that's what he is. It doesn't matter that he may or may not have a valid point, his way of presenting it always ends up making him look like an ***.


I don't see that in this thread, but the feedback forum is the only place I ever see him, so I'll have to take your word on that.

Kirby the Eccentric wrote:
Also, why is there a need to blame Zam and other forums for the idiotic behaviour in-game?


I think the point was more to show that people like to pretend that windower is a harmless third party app, when that's just not true. When people are trying to play a game according to the rules, and they are paying just as much as anyone else to play that game, and their experience is soured because "everyone else" is cheating (using the definition that breaking any rule = cheating), that doens't seem so harmless to me, personally.
#26 Sep 20 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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The Windower itself is harmless. It's the people swinging it around as an excuse.

People can be jerks about pretty much anything in game. I'm sure you've noticed at least one example of this.

It's the same with any other player-player interaction. I don't see why it needs to be moderated on the forums we use.
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