Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Struggling with Pugilist.Follow

#1 Sep 09 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
316 posts
My goal to surpass, and to a certain extent carry on Hamon Holyfist's legacy has recently starting fleeting from my mind.

After my first "tough" boss battle involving Ifrit, I've come to question am I playing this class right.

My rotation was something like this: From the side, Bootshine → Twin Snake → Snap Punch → Switch to back → Bootshine → switch to side → Twin Snake (repeat)
At some point in there I must reapply Tough of Death.

Now doing that, the thought that my DPS was hurting from all the position changing caused a bit a doubt.

Or is this how PUG/MNK is played?

Also worried about parses and all that.

I know Im just lvl20 but I tend to look far ahead of myself.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 11:47am by TwilightSkye
____________________________
FFXI character: Elathia ::F Tarutaru::85SCH/75RDM/70WHM/54BLM::Bahamut::1/24/2004 - Present::
RDM Maat victory: March 28, 2008 (1/3)
#2 Sep 09 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
Don't forget about True Strike!

Basically at your level you have three priorities in order:
1: Keep up the Greased Lightning buff stacked as high as it'll go for you
2: Keep up the Twin Snakes buff
3: Keep up Touch of Death

Beyond that, your "rotation" such as it is, should look something like:

Bootshine from rear (doesn't matter for first Bootshine, but you should get used to always doing this from behind)
Twin Snakes from the side
Snap Punch from the side
Touch of Death (you want to do it here so it picks up the Twin Snakes and Greased Lightning buff and you aren't wasting GCDs)
Bootshine from rear
True Strike from rear
Snap Punch from the side
Repeat

You aren't dealing with Demolish yet, so it really is as simple as this for right now.

The reason you don't Twin Snakes all the time in that #2 slot is because the buff from it lasts long enough to hang around through another full combo and True Strike does more damage.

As for moving into position, yeah it takes some practice and can be a pain on larger bosses. Basically the important part is your buffs. If you have to do something out of position to keep your buffs up, DO IT, the lost dps from being out of position is less than the lost dps from having to run through the full combo 2 or 3 more times to get all your buffs back after making a mistake.

Keep on punching!
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#3 Sep 09 2013 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
316 posts
Thanks for the advice. True Strike was kind of like a lost wheel to me, not knowing when to use it, other than a path to GL.

So outside of keeping buffs up, its : Bootshine → Side: Twin Snakes → Snap Punch → Touch of Death → Back: Bootshine→True Strike → Side: Snap Punch, repeat.

I'll be practicing that on a training dummy. I'm also working on getting position changes to be more fluid/seamless.
____________________________
FFXI character: Elathia ::F Tarutaru::85SCH/75RDM/70WHM/54BLM::Bahamut::1/24/2004 - Present::
RDM Maat victory: March 28, 2008 (1/3)
#4 Sep 09 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
That's also going to be a little quick on the re-applying of Touch of Death since it lasts so long. It probably will only need to be re-applied every other full rotation there. Your goal with it should always be to have Twin Snakes and as much Greased Lightning as you can going when you use it so it's ticking for the maximum amount possible. If you can also have Internal Release going, it'll probably help though I'm not totally certain whether dots can crit or not.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#5 Sep 10 2013 at 2:23 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
**
589 posts
This explains how PGL/MNK works very well.

http://ffxivrealm.com/guides/monk-dps-guide-v2.14/


Edited, Sep 10th 2013 4:49am by SolomonGrundy
____________________________
Solomon Grundy | Born on a Monday | Excalibur Server | Abyss: Welcome to a Higher Quality of Nerding™
#6 Sep 10 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
Great find. I'm looking forward to having more data, so some of those stat caps can be nailed down.

I'd also like to do some testing to see if dots are affected by crit or not. Tricky since they don't show up in the combat log.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#7 Sep 10 2013 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
3 posts
Also use "Infernal Release" before "Snap Punch" when switching position.

And don't worry about the damage numbers when playing PGL/MNK. Remember that you are hitting much faster and faster when maxing "Greased Lightning" instead of making 2,5s casts 24/7 while standing still *cough* ;)

Edited, Sep 11th 2013 1:54am by jezet
____________________________
Do or do not, there is no try.
FFXIV (Moogle): Jezer Madbum - lvl 50 Monk / lvl 30+ Dragoon
#8 Sep 13 2013 at 6:49 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
316 posts
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Great find. I'm looking forward to having more data, so some of those stat caps can be nailed down.

I'd also like to do some testing to see if dots are affected by crit or not. Tricky since they don't show up in the combat log.


Tested this for a bit on training dummies. Not crit so far, although I've seen higher procs(12dmg instead of the average 7-8) but I don't know if that's just part of the formula, or a crit but doesn't display it as a critical.

Oh yes, I've got the hang of rotations now. I've got that feeling "I can do it" back and its gonna stay. :)

And side note, it feels nice to be wearing armor that makes me LOOK like a pug(the velveteen set). Enjoying it while it lasts 'cause next gear change is at 29, and I bet Im gonna be back to looking like a cross between a WAR and a GLAD.

Edited, Sep 13th 2013 8:51am by TwilightSkye
____________________________
FFXI character: Elathia ::F Tarutaru::85SCH/75RDM/70WHM/54BLM::Bahamut::1/24/2004 - Present::
RDM Maat victory: March 28, 2008 (1/3)
#9 Sep 13 2013 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
17 posts
Locking onto the target also helps when moving positions so you don't get turned around.
#10 Sep 15 2013 at 11:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,495 posts
I have a bit to contribute, and I'm afraid I'll stand on some people's toes but I don't think the currently "accepted" way to play pugilist/monk is actually efficient.

Premise: Perfect positioning is unrealistic, you have to dodge, you have to handle adds, interact with fight objectives, use the limit break, etc. No matter how skilled you are with the keyboard/controller you will never archive perfect positioning, and if you can't archive it the theoretical "ideal" rotation will do less damage than a constant flexible simple rotation. This is the idea behind my suggestions, if you are going to comment on anything please address this first.

First things first, you have one (and only one) priority as a pugilist/monk to warrant your damage, that is to keep GL (Greased Lighting) up as much as possible, everything else is second to that, again I cannot stress this point enough: DoT's, position, extra abilities nothing else matters if you forsake greased lighting, from level 40 onward it will become automatically 15% of your speed (about 18%~ damage up) and 21% raw damage for a bit more than 40% total damage increment between grease lighting III and no grease lighting.

As long as you understand that your performance will be OK.

On weapon skill rotation, I urge most pugilist/monks to forget about True Strike and Touch of Death (and eventually Bootshine after Dragon kick in lvl 50). I know, sounds like nonsense but hear me out for a second.

1) True strike: at 150 potency it's just 10 potency over Twin snakes (140 from the side) and the only advantage you get is 5% critical chance (2.5% damage increment) which is negligible, more over the recommended rotation has 6 WS (weapon skills) between Twin Snakes, that means 15 seconds on the standard GCD (global cool down), it means that your next Twin Snakes will not be used within the duration of its own bonus reducing it's potential potency from 154 (140 + 10%) to 140, that's 14 damage difference which is larger than the difference between True Strike and Twin snakes, hence using True Strike actually hurts your damage instead of helping it, and even if you get enough skill speed to manage 6 WS in less than 12 seconds, we still have the issue with perfect positioning.

2) ToD: while it's a sexy 270 potency WS, it doesn't fit inside your rotation (as it doesn't change your stance) and requires 30 seconds to do full damage, for trash mobs ToD won't finish most of the time gimping its total damage, hence we need to know how long does it need to last to be worth:
Snap Pounch (180 potency from the side) + Twin Snakes (140 potency from the side) + Bootshine (195 potency from behind) average at 172~ potency per WS, if ToD can't reach that number is not worth using, at 25 initial potency and 20 additional potency each 3 seconds you will need it to last 24 seconds (for 8 DoT procs) for 185 damage, anything less than that, and you are automatically loosing DPS, trash mobs barely last 20 seconds (and that's with a slow killing group). Against bosses your priority is to keep GL, ToD is an additional WS out of the rotation, if you see any risk to lose GL I strongly advice you to forsake it. but if you manage to combine it with your rotation it will actually increase your damage (98~ potency every 30 seconds)
Note: Roughly Monks pull around 3000~ potency each 30 seconds, 100 potency is about 3% damage increase. Even a bit more after lvl 50 since the introduction of Dragon Kick will sightly reduce the average potency per WS.

3) Bootshine: It's a very similar situation with True Strike and Twin Snakes, however Bootshine actually does more damage even if you lose the debuff on your second Dragon Kick, my issue as usual is with perfect positioning, consider that the longer you take to reapply the debuff from Dragon Kick the more damage your are loosing, additionally Bootshine relays on being an guarantied critic hit, hence the greater your critical chance the less effective Bootshine becomes, as Dragon Kick critic hits will always strike harder than Bootshine and right off the bat Monks have +30% critical chance 1/4 of the time (Internal release) that's definitely something to consider.

Finally and to stop this already very long post, let me give you my fellow pugilists/monks the macro that I have dearly titled "Play my class"

/macroicon Bootshine
/ac "Snap Punch" <t>
/ac "Twin Snakes" <t>
/ac "Haymaker" <t>
/ac "Dragon kick" <t>
/ac "Bootshine" <t>
/wait 1
/ac "Internal Release" <me>
/ac "Howling Fist" <t>

Note: you can add more lines with other damaging abilities and buffs at the end to be auto triggered (like Mercy Stoke or Blood for Blood), it works for synced content (replaces dragon kick with bootshine) as long as it's above level 12.
Note2: Demolish has to be used separately.

Explanation: This macro is a one push wonder and relays on the fact that monk WS require an specific stance to be used, the game basically goes line by line until it can execute something. Unfortunately you CANNOT spam this macro or it won't work, you have to press it once each time the GCD is off.

Ken


____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#11 Sep 17 2013 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
That probably should be its own thread so it can be discussed without mucking up the OP's original question about Monk at much lower levels.

Overall though, I appreciate the thought put into that, but I think you're underestimating how easy it is to be in position the majority of the time. Keep in mind too when you're talking about Bootshine and True Strike that the heavy crit devaluation they do actually lets you just stack less crit. If you prioritize skill speed a bit more and count on being able to land those auto-crits, it'll also even out your Twin Snakes and Dragon Kick uptime.

I'm also a big fan of ToD on bosses. Depending on the group it CAN be useful on trash, though your calculation is totally correct.. it needs most of its duration to be worthwhile.

I'm not a fan of cascade macros like that one that take the thought out of what you're doing. There are going to be many MANY situations where you have to adjust your combo sequence on the fly and macros like that one don't allow for that.

Essentially you have a three step combo, and three abilities that can be in each step:

Step 1: Bootshine, Dragon Kick, or Arm of the Destroyer
Step 2: True Strike, Twin Snakes, or One Ilm Punch
Step 3: Snap Punch, Demolish, or Rockbreaker

As long as you're thinking about it in this way and slotting the abilities where and when you need them, you can do this completely on the fly to adjust to changing circumstances.

Monk actually requires a lot of thought and attention to what you're doing to be effective.

Oh, I'm also a fan of Fracture from MRD as an extra dot on bosses. I put it up at the same time I do Demolish as they have similar durations. I usually do Touch of Death on the alternate combo from demolish/fracture (and then only every other one of those because of the long duration) so as not to miss twin snakes by too much. Typically twin snakes falls off either right after bootshine or during the ability itself, but my gear isn't great yet and I don't really have the skill speed I want.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#12 Sep 18 2013 at 12:13 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,495 posts
Definitely I agree with some of your statements, specially:

- Arm of the destroyer
- Rockbreaker
- One Inch punch

Should have the own separate ability slots to be triggered as required, although as a circumstantial WS's they are not part of the standard rotation. I also agree that cascade macros are wonky and require practice to be used efficiently.

However I really believe that True strike is not worth, it is a 153.75 potency WS (150 * 1.025 <- this factors the %critic chance) it's 13.75 potency gain every 11~ seconds (at best) that force you to reposition, but let me provide some more meaningful data instead of some random thoughts.

Acronyms for clarification:
BS (Bootshine)
SN (Twin Snakes)
DM (Demolition)
DK (Dragon Kick)
TS (True Stike)
SP (Snap Punch)

The accepted rotation (from the mob at 100% health):

position to the back>
BS > TS > DM > reposition to the side >
DK > SN > SP > reposition to the back >
BS > TS > SP > reposition to the side >
DK > SN > DM > reposition to the back >
BS > TS > SP > reposition to the side >
DK > SN > SP > go back to the beginning of the rotation

Potency total: 3955~ over 36.46 seconds (considering 0 skill speed equipment)
Potency per second: 108.5~

My recommended rotation (from the mob at 100% health):

position to the side >
DK > SN > DM >
DK > SN > SP >
DK > SN > SP > go back to the beginning of the rotation

Potency total: 3860~ over 36.46 seconds (considering 0 skill speed equipment)
Potency per second: 105.9~

Difference: 2.5%~

I'm a true believer of cost vs benefit, the benefit of a "perfect rotation" vs a simply reliable rotation is slim at best (2.5%) and compared to the cost (memorizing 6 rotation patterns and dealing with positioning) is not worth in my opinion, specially because in this game most bosses are not simply DPS races when you tank and spank, I think it's better to have your attention free for other important tasks (stun for instance!)

My two cents

Ken
____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous ass in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
FFXI: Kenage, retired.
K&K forever!,
#13 Sep 18 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
That's totally fair, and there are times when it's preferable to do slightly less damage in favor of keeping a steady stream of attacks going (mostly to keep GL from falling off). After all, the dps loss from GL falling off is substantial.

Maybe it's personal preference, but I've always been partial to putting out as much damage as I can when playing a dps class (it's kind of my job after all).

I'll do that too. I'll compromise the perfect rotation in order to keep the combo going if I can't get into position (boss aoe is a good example of this). But I think it's a bit better to know what I'm supposed to be doing in order to get the biggest numbers just in case it's possible for me to do it.

I also wish that Arm of the Destroyer and One Ilm Punch didn't have stance requirements. They're so situational that usually you don't have 3-5 seconds to spare if you happen to be at the wrong step in the combo and need one of them. Maybe some day.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#14 Sep 19 2013 at 4:29 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
**
316 posts
Oh by all means use my thread for this. I'm long over my struggles with the class. If anything, I'm actually now fearless. We're kind of rare, but it's always fun when in a FATE and suddenly MNKs show up and destroy the place :).

All info in this thread has inspired me to keep going foward(well right now Im leveling up crafts to better support it gear wise)
____________________________
FFXI character: Elathia ::F Tarutaru::85SCH/75RDM/70WHM/54BLM::Bahamut::1/24/2004 - Present::
RDM Maat victory: March 28, 2008 (1/3)
#15 Sep 24 2013 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
**
443 posts
TwilightSkye wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Great find. I'm looking forward to having more data, so some of those stat caps can be nailed down.

I'd also like to do some testing to see if dots are affected by crit or not. Tricky since they don't show up in the combat log.


Tested this for a bit on training dummies. Not crit so far, although I've seen higher procs(12dmg instead of the average 7-8) but I don't know if that's just part of the formula, or a crit but doesn't display it as a critical.


I am not sure if Crit Rate + affects DoTs or not, but I do know that DoTs can crit. This ARC/BRD trait indicates that they do. You may already know that they do, but I wanted to make sure that others reading this thread knew that as well, since it does not show up either on screen or in the battle log.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
Thinking outside the box is fine, but the owner's manual is on the inside.
#16 Oct 01 2013 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,201 posts
AnimalOnSylph wrote:
TwilightSkye wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Great find. I'm looking forward to having more data, so some of those stat caps can be nailed down.

I'd also like to do some testing to see if dots are affected by crit or not. Tricky since they don't show up in the combat log.


Tested this for a bit on training dummies. Not crit so far, although I've seen higher procs(12dmg instead of the average 7-8) but I don't know if that's just part of the formula, or a crit but doesn't display it as a critical.


I am not sure if Crit Rate + affects DoTs or not, but I do know that DoTs can crit. This ARC/BRD trait indicates that they do. You may already know that they do, but I wanted to make sure that others reading this thread knew that as well, since it does not show up either on screen or in the battle log.


Yeah, crits are a 50% increase. If you're seeing 7-8 normally and a 12 pops up that's a crit. They simply don't show as critical because the game, for a really retarded reason, lumps *ALL* DoT on a mob into a lump damage total and that won't show critical hits even though they do occur.

Edited, Oct 1st 2013 1:11pm by Viertel
#17 Oct 12 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
46 posts
How do you guys handle camera angling when positioning?

I usually lock on to the target and just move left and right to get into position. No worries about getting turned around. I keep the camera above and behind me, zoomed out to easily see AOE and awareness of other mobs. Downside is in tighter areas, when I lock on, the camera moves in so close that I can't see what I am doing. It really hurts because I can't see AOE markings. I then I have to reposition the camera in the middle of a fight, which is a pain(Dzemael darkhold gave me lots of problems). Any tips on camera angling?
#18 Oct 12 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,503 posts
I'm not a fan of locking on to a target. I find it makes me slower to react properly when having to run out of AoE.

I only really care about the camera angle including the floor in the shot so that I can see ground markings. With how much movement Monk does in the normal course of play, I don't get too hung up on whether or not the camera is looking at my back or side, and I strafe to change positions.

I've found two things to really hamper moving out of AoE:
- That scholar bubble that adds a dark purple texture to the ground overrides the AoE marking circles.
- Any instance where the marking circle is the same color as the ground itself (hi2u Stone Vigil...also Titan).

The key things are to be aware of what the boss is doing at all times and knowing which way you need to run to get out of the death.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#19 Jan 17 2014 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
TwilightSkye wrote:
My goal to surpass, and to a certain extent carry on Hamon Holyfist's legacy has recently starting fleeting from my mind.

After my first "tough" boss battle involving Ifrit, I've come to question am I playing this class right.

My rotation was something like this: From the side, Bootshine → Twin Snake → Snap Punch → Switch to back → Bootshine → switch to side → Twin Snake (repeat)
At some point in there I must reapply Tough of Death.

Now doing that, the thought that my DPS was hurting from all the position changing caused a bit a doubt.

Or is this how PUG/MNK is played?

Also worried about parses and all that.

I know Im just lvl20 but I tend to look far ahead of myself.

Edited, Sep 9th 2013 11:47am by TwilightSkye


This should help it helped me as I was used to playing a ranged WHM or ACN.
http://www.ffxivguild.com/ffxiv-a-realm-reborn-pugilist/

Hope this helps :)
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
#20 Feb 28 2014 at 8:14 AM Rating: Default
32 posts
honestly tier screwy rotation is what keeps me from doing this job
Necro Warning: This post occurred more than thirty days after the prior, and may be a necropost.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 2 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (2)