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Why SE Needs to Drop PS2 Support - Its Not About GraphicsFollow

#1 Feb 27 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Sub-Default
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Some time ago I posted, in the wrong forum, a series of suggestions to the developers of FFXI. The first suggestion is one I thought about for a long time, and its the one that made the most sense to me. Its also the one that drew the most ire from the player community, but I think its because everyone misunderstood my reasons for suggesting it.

The suggestion was for SquareEnix to drop Playstation 2 support for Final Fantasy XI.

Despite what everyone thought, this suggestion has nothing to do with the graphics quality of the game. While there are areas that could use some improvement or tweaking, the reasons for the idea have nothing to do with graphics quality.

Its all about game content, UI improvements, and the future expansion of FFXI.

I can't count how many times SE has told the community that they cannot implement this feature or that feature due to limitations in the memory or capabilities of the Playstation 2. A few years ago there was nothing that could be done about this problem. The Playstation 2 and the PC were the only two platforms the game was available on, so the developers had to work within the limitations of the Playstation 2 hardware. They had no choice in the matter. That situation has now changed. The Playstation 2 is essentially a dead system. There is no further developer support for the console. SE is the only company that is still supporting a game console that has passed its end of life. Most recently there have been issues with updating the game due to space limitations in the PS2 hard drive. I think you're starting to get the picture now.

The PC version of FFXI is essentially the PS2 version running within an emulation layer. The Xbox 360 version of FFXI is the PC version of the game running in an emulation layer. This is why both versions have several issues. For one thing the graphics engine is very inefficient. Yes, I said this wasn't about graphics quality. This is more a technical problem with how the graphics engine works. All modern graphics engines only render what is visible from the player's current viewpoint. The graphics engine of FFXI is different. It renders everything, all at once. Back in the day this meant the game had performance issues on the PC, but PC technology has advanced since then. So much so that your average $300US bargain basement laptop from Walmart can run FFXI quite nicely. It is for this very reason why there was crippling lag issues in Besieged and Campaign. There is also the issue of the "light-flash" that occurs on the PC and 360 version when day breaks. I'm not suggesting SE move FFXI to the engine that FFXIV is on, I'm just suggesting tweaks that fix problems that have persisted for a long time. Fixes that can only be done if PS2 support for FFXI was discontinued.

Another technical issue with the game that could be solved by moving away from the PS2 is disk space limitations for updates and future expansions. As it is, unless SE abandons the PS2 we will never see any further expansions for FFXI because there just isn't any more room available for them on the PS2 hard drive. We'll never see the Far East, the Far West, the Far South or the Far North. We'll never see any of the other continents of Vana'diel that we know are out there because the game story says they are there, but we'll never get to see them. All of those new adventures, quests and missions that could be possible but will never happen because SE didn't drop PS2 support for FFXI.

There are many UI improvements that SE could implement if they dropped PS2 support for FFXI. Such as separating chat text and system messages into two different chat windows, allowing more lines for text in macros, adding a real-time mini-map to the screen, and I could sit here all day listing all of the things SE could do if their developers were not hamstrung by the limitations of the PS2 hardware. By the way, these were some of the suggestions the community has made in the past that SE said they couldn't do due to the limitations of the PS2!

SE could also do away with PlayOnline entirely. I know the developers really want to get rid of it, they don't really want to continue supporting it, and hardly anybody really uses any of the features in it. POL existed because back in the day game consoles didn't have any built-in means for gamers to chat, access the web, nor easily connect to the Internet. Online play was pretty much the exclusive domain of the PC. Xbox Live was in its infancy. Today, the 360 is the only console without a web browser ... for now (hint, hint, hint Microsoft). A game console that cannot connect to the Internet in some way for downloading games, updates, DLC, or for online play would never sell in this day & age. SE could easily put FFXI on PSN for purchase and download on the PS3. The game is already available for the PC on Steam, which owns about 75% of the PC game sales market.

All of this and more is possible, but SE needs to make the decision to end any further support for the Playstation 2. If they don't the game is going the stay the way it is and eventually stagnate. SE is in the right position to make this move. FFXIV isn't doing so well right now, and they've taken a bit of a hit to their image because of it. Yes, ending PS2 support for FFXI will indeed inconvenience some people. This is a given, but they by rights should be moving away from the PS2 any. There are a few good reasons why. One of which is the fact that the PS2 is over 10 years old now, when the hardware wears out you cannot buy a brand new PS2 or PS2 hard drive. You have to buy used hardware, which will have a more limited lifespan. Eventually, PS2 users will have to make the plunge for either a cheap PC or laptop to play the game, get a Xbox 360, or do without. This is a choice every PS2 user is going to have to face one way or another in the end. Setting aside all else, this is perhaps the #1 most important reason why SE should abandon the PS2.

I think now most of you can understand why I suggested SE end PS2 support for FFXI now. If they decide to do something to improve the graphics of the game IF they drop PS2 support, then more power to them. The game looks fine the way it is. It could use a few tweaks here and there, maybe a new lighting system which would do wonders for the game, but overall the graphics aren't at the heart of why I think they need to make this move.

In the end, discontinuing PS2 support for FFXI will benefit SE and it will certainly benefit the players. Its time to move on.

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#2 Feb 27 2011 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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While I do agree PS2 support should be dropped b/c of the EOL aspect eventually leading to no one will be able to play it on a PS2 one day, I doubt you will see a lot of these things implemented. As you stated, it is run in emulation. That means, to some degree, the same (or at least similar) limitations likely exist in the software as well. I seriously doubt they would be willing to do a full rework of the emulation portion of it for a game that is this old. Remember the anticipated DirectX upgrade that got nixed b/c it (more or less) wasn't worth the effort/cost to complete the tweaking--it probly meant ditching the whole rendering to texture layer crap it does now...talk about a nightmare for them.

If anything, there could be something more along the lines of an FFXI clone (hopefully not another FFX-2 path that disapppointed a large portion of the fan base). But a rework of the core engine/structure of the existing game this late in it's lifespan (likely designed in large part by people no longer employed there)--I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

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#3 Feb 27 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Default
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This is only rumor, but I've heard that SE isn't all that pleased with Crystal Tools. These are the same in-house developed dev tools SE used to make FFXIII and FFXIV. I've also heard that an earlier version of these tools were used to make FFXI and FFXII.

If a rebuilt version of FFXI is made then SE might be better off using the UDK. The UDK is the Unreal Development Kit, a suite of tools for building a game using the Unreal 3 graphics engine. The UDK is free to download and use if you are a mod developer or for educational purposes. A license to sell a UDK development game is just $99 and you are not required to pay the 25% royalty fee until after you make more than $50,000. This is a boon to indie game developers looking for a top quality graphics engine. Not every indie developer has the time, or money to build their own graphics engine. The Unreal 3 engine is pretty powerful and quite capable of displaying some incredible looking graphics.

One notable feature of the UDK is map streaming. In-game multiple map files will look and act like one giant map. Just like in games like Fallout 3 or Oblivion, it allows players to seamlessly move from one map to the next without a loading screen. A FFXI rebuilt in the UDK using map streaming would have NO ZONES, meaning you could walk from Bastok to the dunes without seeing a loading screen and SE's map designers could built the maps so the terrain slowly transitions to that of the different regions. I think it would be great, and the development costs would be minimal consider how Epic has lower the cost on licensing significantly.

Its clear that SE needs to do something. The whole FFXIV debacle could kill the Final Fantasy franchise. That's two Final Fantasy games that have been a big disappointment, in a row. They need to do something to stave off disaster.

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#4 Feb 27 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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The thing is, I've always liked the art direction of FFXI and the graphics for it are still satisfying. PC players already know how to tweak their systems to get a pretty decent look with what we have.

It is, as this topic said, not about graphics. It's about the limitation of 256 zones. It's about the the limitations of storage space being 80 slots max. It's about not being able to add any more translations to auto-translate.

I do have to make a correction, however. Sony is actually still continuing to support the PS2 and developers who made games for it. They will likely continue to do so until the PS4 is ready to roll out in 2014 or whenever. They didn't officially end support of the PS1 until 2006


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#5 Feb 27 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
thezorch, you obviously like FFXI. Thats awesome, i do too. You seem to be doing what i have seen plenty of newer(to FFXI anyways) ppl do however-focus on the wrong part of the story.

FFXI is an old *** game. Accept it. Tweek the **** out of you PC and set it up to play as best you can. Moreover, enjoy the game for what it is. Don't play the 'woulda, shoulda, coulda' in your mind. I mean just going off of the info from your sig, try building up that BST of yours before tackling an issue that has no easy fix.

By all means make your suggestion, but keep perspective. Really enjoy the game some before dissecting it and announcing what must be done to save the franchise.

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#6 Feb 27 2011 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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Its also the one that drew the most ire from the player community, but I think its because everyone misunderstood my reasons for suggesting it.


No, it drew ire because it's ******* stupid. Posting it again didn't make it any less ******* stupid.

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#7 Feb 28 2011 at 3:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar is a Troll, kill it with Fire IV!!!!!

My system runs FFXI just fine. Its a AMD Athlon64x2 with dual-SLI Nvidia cards, so its kinda overkill for this game.
#8 Feb 28 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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Yep, anyone who disagrees with you and gets annoyed when people make multiple threads (not to mention using a likely sock account to do it) to say the same **** thing is just trolling.

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#9 Feb 28 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Yep, anyone who disagrees with you and gets annoyed when people make multiple threads (not to mention using a likely sock account to do it) to say the same **** thing is just trolling.
There's a notable difference between disagreeing with someone and going ******* on them over something. Regardless of whether there are repeated threads.

Personally, it's too big a move for them to make. I'd love to see them do it and implement status buff/debuff timers built into the game engine itself (which is really the only UI change I would want). And as mentioned above, the PS2 is still somewhat alive. The hardware is not as stupidly common, but it's still there. It's going similarly to how the dreamcast went, in a way.
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#10 Feb 28 2011 at 9:56 PM Rating: Default
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There's a notable difference between disagreeing with someone and going apesh*t on them over something. Regardless of whether there are repeated threads.


This topic is so overdone that anyone who reposts it deserves to be apeshat upon.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 10:56pm by Fynlar
#11 Mar 01 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
There's a notable difference between disagreeing with someone and going apesh*t on them over something. Regardless of whether there are repeated threads.


This topic is so overdone that anyone who reposts it deserves to be apeshat upon.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 10:56pm by Fynlar


Why? it is pretty relevant. **** you can't even buy PS2 software anymore, let alone the hardware. Unless you hunt on eBay or the like. The PS2 is dead, and those decade+ old machines are going to start dying off just upgrade the game, and if PS2 users are unable to receive benefits due to limitations, sucks to be them. I don't personally feel that the support should be cut, but I think the game should still move forward, if it means that PS2 users have to upgrade to PC to access new content, then most will likely do that. If not SE really doesn't lose much from it, PS2 players stop playing out of rage, and SE can drop support. Or they buy a PC/Xbox and keep up.

That being said, I don't see FFXI having a very bright future left. Most likely at one more mini expac on the lines of abyssea (2 for leveling purposes 1 for endgame content). Outside of most likely tri-annual then biannual major updates (with the increase of these minor ones) the game won't change much.


But you can thank sony for the PS2 holding back ffxi. Its not SE's fault that shortly after the FFXI/HDD package Sony dropped support for the fat PS2 and went to Slims. Its also not SE's fault that sony has not provided and system upgrades to streamline the memory usage of the PS2 to squeeze more out of it. Furthermore they have done the exact same to the PS3 bckwards compatibility. If you want to blame someone for causing the PS2 to stagnate the game then point your finger at sony. SE is in the business of making money, and as long as they are getting subs via PS2, it ain't going anywhere.
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#12 Mar 01 2011 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
There's a notable difference between disagreeing with someone and going apesh*t on them over something. Regardless of whether there are repeated threads.


This topic is so overdone that anyone who reposts it deserves to be apeshat upon.

Edited, Feb 28th 2011 10:56pm by Fynlar

So long as Playstation 2 support remains a genuine cause of problems within the game, the issue isn't any manner of "done."
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#13 Mar 01 2011 at 11:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Do people honestly think that the moment SE drops PS2 support for FFXI, that the game is going to magically become better? That's the only reason I can see why people bother posting suggestions that SE do so.

Also, SE knows far better than we do exactly what kind of impact legacy PS2 support has on the game. If losing whatever PS2 player base remains as a trade off for improving the game made sense, don't you think SE would already be considering it? Do we really think suggestions from the player base is going to help push them toward dropping PS2 support when we really don't have a clue as to what the ramifications are?
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#14 Mar 01 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
Do people honestly think that the moment SE drops PS2 support for FFXI, that the game is going to magically become better? That's the only reason I can see why people bother posting suggestions that SE do so.

Also, SE knows far better than we do exactly what kind of impact legacy PS2 support has on the game. If losing whatever PS2 player base remains as a trade off for improving the game made sense, don't you think SE would already be considering it? Do we really think suggestions from the player base is going to help push them toward dropping PS2 support when we really don't have a clue as to what the ramifications are?

Honestly, I genuinely believe there's gotta be some workaround. Perhaps there's some way to expand the game without dropping PS2 support.

Whether S-E knows for sure, we can only guess. You know full well about their rather tight-lipped history--they've kept their traps shut about a lot over the years, no reason they'd open up about the future of life with the PS2. However, they've admitted the zone and storage limitations (to say nothing of auto-translate), caused by the PS2, so they must be aware that something's got to give at some point, and if there's a solution in the works (whether it's divisive or inclusive), we're certainly not going to hear about it soon.

But assuming they really weren't talking out of their asses, and that the Playstation 2 really is a serious limiter like they say it is, then the problems that it creates remains, and so it remains a viable topic for discussion. There's no point blindly defending it. Simply say "I can't afford/won't acquire new hardware" and come off it.

Edited, Mar 1st 2011 10:12am by SunriderRagnarok
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#15 Mar 01 2011 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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If I could play this game without the game eating up one of the cores of my CPU and the game was changed to only use resources necessary I think I'd be very happy.

Oh and being able to have administrator settings on and do ctrl alt delete in windows vista / 7 without crashing the game.
#16 Mar 01 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Default
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Why? it is pretty relevant. **** you can't even buy PS2 software anymore, let alone the hardware.


So? Are you saying the person that bought the last PS2 should be screwed out of playing this game because more hardware isn't available for sale anymore? What kind of ridiculous is that?

Quote:
The PS2 is dead, and those decade+ old machines are going to start dying off just upgrade the game, and if PS2 users are unable to receive benefits due to limitations, sucks to be them. I don't personally feel that the support should be cut, but I think the game should still move forward, if it means that PS2 users have to upgrade to PC to access new content, then most will likely do that. If not SE really doesn't lose much from it, PS2 players stop playing out of rage, and SE can drop support. Or they buy a PC/Xbox and keep up.


If you're not content with a 8+ years old game (that happens to be originally designed for the PS2), go find another game. This one is only going to keep getting older.

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So long as Playstation 2 support remains a genuine cause of problems within the game, the issue isn't any manner of "done."


It's overdiscussed, overdone, and nothing is going to come of it anyway. Reason: Like any smart person would have already figured out, they will retain more subscribers by keeping their PS2 crowd than dropping them. You would think this isn't rocket science, but some people can't seem to wrap their minds around this fact.

It's like people making threads over and over again ******** about RMT. It's overdone, and these threads only serve to annoy people.

Quote:
Do people honestly think that the moment SE drops PS2 support for FFXI, that the game is going to magically become better? That's the only reason I can see why people bother posting suggestions that SE do so.


Yes, that is what people actually believe.
#17 Mar 02 2011 at 7:41 PM Rating: Good
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You guys realize that FFXI uses an 8 bit value for zone lookup due to memory limitations of the PS2 right?

That means 256 zones maximum, and we are at 248 zones right now. Once we reach 256 zones there can be no further expansions.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#18 Mar 03 2011 at 7:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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they should make those last few zones count then. no reskins and really big
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#19 Mar 03 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I have seen the ps2 being sold still in gamestop btw and I think they stop making the harddrive on the ps2 because people were able to copy a game on to the hard drive and then trade it in.
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#20 Mar 03 2011 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, you can still go out and buy a brand new PS2 slim for $99. Still sold online, still sold in stores, still being manufactured and supported by Sony. If you want a brand new PS2 fat original, though, there's only a handful of places that have them online and they'll cost you more than a brand new Xbox 360 (the one I saw was being sold for $380) AND you still have to hunt down a separate hard drive. You can get the original FFXI bundle for $110 from Amazon, but it looks like there are five left in the entire universe that are brand new in box.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:19am by catwho
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#21 Mar 03 2011 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
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If you want a brand new PS2 fat original, though, there's only a handful of places that have them online and they'll cost you more than a brand new Xbox 360 (the one I saw was being sold for $380)


Maybe I should sell my fat and buy a slim. I don't use it for any HDD stuff anyway. Though I'd probably need to import some console because I want to play JP games, and those fools region lock everything. (Maybe to avoid feminist rage from too **** characters?)
#22 Mar 03 2011 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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You know, it took them about six months to fix that bug with invisible airships and instant-traveling ferry rides. Last I heard, the 360 still locks up at the end of besieged. I don't even know if they ever fixed that bug that caused the PS2 to freeze when doing the initial Abyssea quest. There are annoying bugs with the sound engine on the PS2 and PC that have been there since the very beginning. It's painfully obvious that they have been doing an absolute minimum amount of maintenance on the client for many years now -- I'm stunned they even bothered to fix the PS2 update disk space issue.
Do you really think they will spend even an extra minute upgrading anything not necessary? They haven't updated the supported graphics card list for Windows since 2008!! Not a peep was heard from SE when the last generation of Geforce cards was running the game at 5fps, and apparently Nvidia needed to borrow a normal player's account to troubleshoot the issue. Doesn't seem like "The way it's meant to be played" to me...
#23 Jun 03 2011 at 2:25 AM Rating: Default
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FFXI is an amazing game being held back by some very poor decisions.

Most of the community, as sad as it is are completely blind to many facts. Most online communities in general simply like to argue and Square Enix has actually exploited this weakness within people. They know that their supporters will be the vocal minority they need to keep things seemingly in check.

Everything made past Treasures of Aht Urghan is a poor attempt at adding content without proper effort, but you could already see such things from the game early on when it came to acquiring gear. Square Enix implemented random drop systems, too-little gear for too-many-people events, so on and so forth. They knew it would cause drama and take a long time, but at the end of the day most of the community fails to realize they are a business. Businesses want you to be happy, so they can make more money off of you. Some people in the business may actually care as well, but as a whole they do not care what is truly best for their customer, only what makes them happy. The cigarette industry is a good example of this.

There are two things to thank all the re-skinned zones and half-assed expansions for and that is PS2 limitations as well as budget and production cuts. As we've seen now with FFXIV Square Enix quite obviously (if you're not blind) has an outlook of "If we make something shiny and pretty they will come" often overlooking proper development. Unfortunately that is what most of this Abyssea stuff is.

The level cap increase should have never happened, Empyrean gear should have happened but not quite as powerfully and game breaking as it did. Magian trials should have happened, but as a more casual approach to a weapon upgrading system. At this point you probably hate me and you're ready to rate me down, do as you must be think on what I have to say next at the very least.

What if, instead of re-skinned zones we got completely new, unique stories and systems added in completely new areas? What if, instead of making people's old gear obsolete and making them feel like they MUST acquire new gear, you simply gave them more options and made them WANT to acquire the new gear? What if, instead of poorly re-skinned zones and more time sinks you gave people new missions, new lands to explore, new adventures to be had.

Believe it or not, it is these things that are what use to make FFXI so truly unique and spectacular. It wasn't just a grind fest for more shiny new objects leading to more grindfests for more shiny new objects, there were actually intriguing missions, quests, adventures and diversity along the way that gave it the depth to make such grinding worth it in the end.

Another thing people fail to realize is just how much content this Abyssea stuff has erased. Years and Years of so much diverse content, from Dynamis to Limbus, Sea to Sky, ZNM's to Kings and a hundred different things inbetween. Now when I sign on all I see is people in Abyssea zones and Port Jeuno. That's all anyone does anymore, Abyssea. It's like a drug and it's sickening to watch. Of course, the drug makes people feel good so it's difficult for them to see why in the long run it's bad.

But is it too late? No, it's not.

Square Enix has however done enough damage to make me and many others who usually keep quiet from playing and being interested. It's hard, when you make some one work so long for some items and then tell them they're now mediocre, to do it again. How could you not blame them?

But is it too late? No, as long as the game is running there's still hope.

What Square Enix needs to do first of all, is put an actual reason into obtaining the old gear, to give more diversity to the game. People will argue "Well then, no one would Abyssea!" or get mad, because suddenly their abyssea gear isn't the end-all be-all of gear anymore, but people would logically still have options including Abyssea and still do them. So I think the biggest step would be re-newing the old content to once more rejuvenate the game. I'm not talking about abjurations you have to farm or buy all over again, simply to have to have a high level over-complex craft skill just to attempt for a mediocre augment at best which still doesn't match even the +1 Empyrean armor. I'm talking about completely revising old gear.

But finally, as the OP says one of the biggest problems is PS2 support. Square Enix uses that as an excuse more than anything, the excuse being not dropping it. If they did drop it, they would have to put proper development and funding into the game, building full on expansions and doing all that needs to be done, creating new areas, etc.

The PS2 needs to be dropped sooner or later, to keep the game going. Anyone who says this is in denial and of course there's a few overly angsty trolls on here who will yell, scream and argue it up one side and down the other, but all you need to do is use a bit of common sense.

FFXI is a truly amazing thing, a evolving world and I would like to hear anyone disagree that the game evolving and continuing to evolve is a bad thing, but some of the biggest aspects in it's evolution are being held back by continuing PS2 support. There is no reason why in time, the game can't evolve to be better, bigger, more expansive. FFXI is a truly amazing story with so much depth, it really is unique in the MMORPG market as a whole and has so much potential, I hate seeing it held back.

Think of all the solutions that could be made possible. Think of graphics upgrades. Think of, the most IMPORTANT THING OF ALL...

New Areas and new missions, to continue this journey in Vana Diel. Right now all we're doing is grinding away for more gear, but for what? Once we've completed the missions, once the content has been done, now that older content is so undesirable, why get this Abyssea gear? Simply so we can get... More Abyssea gear?

Square Enix. A time will come when you must make the decision to further evolve this game. It will require time, money and making some tough decisions, but it will be worth it in the end. Vana Diel is a truly amazing place and you know deep down inside you've done some damage to it all while so many things still need addressing, but keep in mind it is not too late. You have a loyal fan base, many of which still follow you blindly, others who still have faith in you. If you make the right decisions these people will bring with them many others anew and this game could once more flourish as it should.

As of now, a very basic and cheap Computer will run FFXI. I guarantee that almost everyone has that, but keep in mind, what if a vocal few do not? Are you going to conform this entire game for those few, or are you going to unleash the potential it still has to the masses? I guarantee as upset as those few people may be, if PS2 support was dropped but the game was made much better and expanded on, most of them would either switch to or buy the proper Computer to run it. But, do you want to hold back the masses and watch the game slowly fade, losing more people over time, or do you want to truly unlock what it could really be?

Please consider these things, hopefully you already are. The game will need to evolve eventually. People will eventually run out of things to do and get tired of just obtaining new gear in the same place with no other purpose but to obtain new gear. People will eventually get tired of this and the choice will have to be made. I hope and pray that your plan is not simply to ride down a sinking ship and that you will properly repair what needs to be repaired and properly evolve a game that still holds so much potential.

Yours truly, an adventurer who loves Vana Diel and wishes to explorer the many horizons I've yet to explore and partake in the many journeys yet to come.
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#24 Jun 03 2011 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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We were talking about what made FFXI the most in-depth of the MMOs, and one of the discussions that came up was the sheer size of the world. Vana'diel actually feels like a planet, and not just a game. With over 200 zones you can actually access, and a rough idea of a world you can't yet see, plus plenty of places you can see but not access - and the layered dungeon systems in the towns that turn simple graphics into a living, breathing city-states - Vana'diel is a true virtual world. Even someone who is a 7-year veteran like I am still encounters surprises when I start playing around in a zone, liking finding the hidden drawbridge in Ghelspa Outpost while I was running around trying to learn Blastbomb. I literally had no idea it was there, and I was pleased when I ended up in Fort Ghelspa.

This tells me that I really haven't seen everything and done everything in Vanadiel just yet.

And it would be wonderful if SE could add additional places for me to visit and discover, to keep me entertaind for years to come.
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#25 Jun 03 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ehhh, so the argument against Abyssea is that the gear is too easy to get? And that more content with no rewards is the answer? Because the player is too drugged on getting stuff done to realize that they're not actually having fun with the game?

Man, ***** that.

Nobody ever wants to do missions and stuff for the fun of it. And this is coming from Erecia of CoP guide fame. I'm still like halfway through the WoTG missions and I can't be bothered to finish it. I'll just youtube the videos at some point. I have a certain tolerance for BCNM fights designed to kill me unless I'm perfect and punishing death with a long runaround and I think I used it all up in about 2006. Gimme some DNC body seals over that any day.

Look, hey, example of the new age. There's these DNC-only movement speed shoes. I really like movement speed gear so I made it a goal to solo the guy that drops them (with a 100% rate!) on my BLM so I leveled it up from 75 to 85 in a couple hours. Later, I mentioned this in a seal-farming party naerby. After we were done seal farming, an awesome dude and I teamed up, duoed the thing, and I got my shoes that have a 100% drop. In one day. Like 8 hours after I came up with initial goal. Gave a nearby MNK the MNK item from it, gave the guy that helped me the AF+2 items. Everyone won, everyone was happy.

Compare this with F'ing Herald's Gaiters that drop from F'ing Tiamat and still go for 10 mil gil on my server. That, back in the "good old days" was botted and would have holding parties (or holding ALLIANCES) sitting there to claim and hold while the rest of the LS rolled out. For a long, boring, somewhat hard fight that only occasionally dropped a single good item.

If this is the future, then the past can kiss my ***.
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#26 Jun 03 2011 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Yeah, you can still go out and buy a brand new PS2 slim for $99. Still sold online, still sold in stores, still being manufactured and supported by Sony. If you want a brand new PS2 fat original, though, there's only a handful of places that have them online and they'll cost you more than a brand new Xbox 360 (the one I saw was being sold for $380) AND you still have to hunt down a separate hard drive. You can get the original FFXI bundle for $110 from Amazon, but it looks like there are five left in the entire universe that are brand new in box.

Edited, Mar 3rd 2011 10:19am by catwho


Six, actually. I have an unopened one that I bought years ago when I saw the Ps2's last days coming. Ended up upgrading anyway, but I keep it for nostalgia's sake. The Ps2 really is a tank - I have never had an issue with mine from the day I bought it to the day it went back in its box to join the rest of my gaming legacy in storage. It, along with my mint condition FFXI RoTZ Ps2 release, has taken its place among such greats as my Trash-80, Commodore 64, Ataris 2600 and 7800, NES, Sega 16 and Genesis... Ah those were the days.

Sony may still be "supporting" developers but as far as I know XI is the only game to have ever made use of the hard drive in its intended fashion. I fear the end might come sooner rather than later. It would be nice to have some actual hard numbers of how many are still actively logging in with the Ps2 client. I'm sure there are still many, but not very likely to be as many as some are claiming. I mean, Catwho had the game running on a freaking netbook - it's not like it's that resource intensive and if the Ps2 went away no one would have good enough hardware to run it.

Would it magically change everything overnight? No, but it sure would open back up the realm of possibilities, especially with XIV doing so very poorly.

Edited, Jun 3rd 2011 6:36pm by Torrence
#28 Jun 04 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Fyn, you may not have liked the necro or who was responsible for it, but that doesn't mean you should bash them for it. They're entitled to voice their opinion on the subject at hand, same as everyone else.
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#29 Jun 04 2011 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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They knew it would cause drama and take a long time, but at the end of the day most of the community fails to realize they are a business. Businesses want you to be happy, so they can make more money off of you. Some people in the business may actually care as well, but as a whole they do not care what is truly best for their customer, only what makes them happy.


How many people you think use ps2 version? 10%? maybe less?
From a "business" sense you guys may cry all day about this but you still playing, so you are still paying. Why would they cut out 10% of the money they make off this game?

I could be wrong but I don't think ps2 version is going anywhere, they are not going to dump a bunch of money into a 10 year old game to make it better for you and at the same time cut out some income by booting paying users.

They are pumping money into 14 and whatever this new game is they are making, we will be getting 2 or 3 updates a year with little big change after 99 cap. Maybe some people not happy with this but there lots of other games out there, if you want something new and shiny you should checlk those.
#30 Jun 04 2011 at 8:44 PM Rating: Default
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Fyn, you may not have liked the necro or who was responsible for it, but that doesn't mean you should bash them for it. They're entitled to voice their opinion on the subject at hand, same as everyone else.


And my opinion is that this is a bad thread and he should feel bad for necrobumping it.
#31 Jun 04 2011 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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This is going to be off topic, but it needs said.

I read the spiel, and one thing that stood out is how he seems to think that the Empyrean gear is the greatest stuff ever made. Well, for some jobs it is, but at least for DRK it's pretty **** mediocre. Oh sure, it's good in comparison to previous gear that's DRK exclusive, but when compared to the other Empyrean sets it's arguably the weakest of the lot. ****, the Bale+2 set might as well just be called Pearle+1. Sure you could point to one or two pieces that are better than previous items, but the set as whole just isn't that great.

#32 Jun 05 2011 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quinildorff wrote:
Quote:
They knew it would cause drama and take a long time, but at the end of the day most of the community fails to realize they are a business. Businesses want you to be happy, so they can make more money off of you. Some people in the business may actually care as well, but as a whole they do not care what is truly best for their customer, only what makes them happy.


How many people you think use ps2 version? 10%? maybe less?
From a "business" sense you guys may cry all day about this but you still playing, so you are still paying. Why would they cut out 10% of the money they make off this game?

I could be wrong but I don't think ps2 version is going anywhere, they are not going to dump a bunch of money into a 10 year old game to make it better for you and at the same time cut out some income by booting paying users.

They are pumping money into 14 and whatever this new game is they are making, we will be getting 2 or 3 updates a year with little big change after 99 cap. Maybe some people not happy with this but there lots of other games out there, if you want something new and shiny you should checlk those.


I don't think it's as many as 10%, it would be nice if in a census they provided this data though. But let's say it is 10%. Not to mention, if such a thing did happen most of that 10% would switch over to play on PC. Once again, not many people in this day and time do not have a PC and a quite basic one will run this game.

This game has a very hardcore following of people. If they were to expand on it, market it right and develop it properly there's no reason why they could not bring in more members. If they DON'T bring in members here and there, it WILL eventually die off. That is not a "ffxi is dying" comment, it's just a logical business decision. People leave every day, in small numbers, one by one. You have to replenish those numbers to keep the game going. People join now and then, but not often and most do not stick with it, especially after realizing so many of these facts.

But back to the question, yes, I do think if this game was expanded, developed well and the proper effort put into it, the number of subscribers could be twice what they are and only grow. It would take proper effort and development, but it is a long standing game that is in it's own right, very successful. That says something to people, when they see so many fly-by-night MMO's now days. WoW, FFXI and only a select few others can say they've been around happily for as long as they have.

So yes, if you had to sacrifice that 10% to bring in a greater number, properly develop the game and make happy and keep the interest of those other 90% who wish to explore new lands and have new adventures, hate me if you will but think about it logically, it makes sense. I love Vana Diel and new MMO's don't even compare to what an amazing world it is, to what kind of stories it holds and what not. I don't want to play another MMO and people should not be told to do such for wanting the one they care about to be properly developed and taken care of. Would SE tell some one "This game is old, go play something else?" or should they concentrate on saying "Hey, we have had this game for a decade now. We have a diehard following and soon we are going to completely revamp it, overhaul it and add a huge new expansion! Now's the time to get in on FFXI!".

With all due respect.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 12:02am by EndlessJourney
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#33 Jun 05 2011 at 2:40 AM Rating: Decent
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I read the spiel, and one thing that stood out is how he seems to think that the Empyrean gear is the greatest stuff ever made. Well, for some jobs it is, but at least for DRK it's pretty **** mediocre. Oh sure, it's good in comparison to previous gear that's DRK exclusive, but when compared to the other Empyrean sets it's arguably the weakest of the lot. ****, the Bale+2 set might as well just be called Pearle+1. Sure you could point to one or two pieces that are better than previous items, but the set as whole just isn't that great.


Actually, The DRK set s pretty **** powerful. The Body has a massive Attack bonus, 4% crit rate, haste +3% (haste bodies are rare and haste bodies with badass melee stats as well are almost nonexstant), and enhances Dread Spikes, one of DRK's best spells. The head piece is probably the best head piece in the entire game, let alone in empyreon. The hands are also some of the best in the entire game for TPing, and they enhance Absorb-TP, another of DRK's best spells. The Feet and Legs are great WS and casting pieces, somethng many DRKs seem to overlook. Huge Nether Void boost and craptons of MACC between the two. There are no non-torcleaver WS feet in the game that can touch those DRK feet, that are good for the physical and magical WSes. The only real disapointment with the entre set is the Occult Acumen enhancement sucks and we wish it would have Augmented Endark to not lose Attack bonus every round. Once you have an Apocalypse, which is now obscenely easy to obtain compared to before, the full set is pretty good TP gear.

Why should anyone take anything you have to say serously anyway Mr "I'm not gonna do anything ToM because it's too easy and doesn't give good enough rewards for being so boring!"


On the topic at hand. No one thinks the magic will start instantly once the PS2 is dead, but if SE sold 14 off and focused on a remastered FFXI with new PC, PS3, 360 versions, made a huge ad campaign this time around (as big as say FFXIII or KH), focusing on the rebirth of one of the greatest MMOs of all time, and released a huge new expansion with massive, all new areas on the same day they shut the PS2 down and release the new updated version, I'm sure they would see a MASSIVE INCREASE in subs.

****, I'm pretty sure if they just did some NA advertising aside from that one commercial I saw only once and that one page add in EGM and PSM, they'd see some new subs. **** most people I talk to NEVER EVEN HEARD OF FFXI. I knew a guy who interned at PSM and he didn't even know the game existed. The fact is, when FFXI was actually advertised in America, the PS2 was still kinda new, and most people didn't have theirs hooked up to this fancy internet thing, let alone want to spend 150 dollars on a single game.
#34 Jun 05 2011 at 2:53 AM Rating: Default
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Return1 wrote:
Quote:
I read the spiel, and one thing that stood out is how he seems to think that the Empyrean gear is the greatest stuff ever made. Well, for some jobs it is, but at least for DRK it's pretty **** mediocre. Oh sure, it's good in comparison to previous gear that's DRK exclusive, but when compared to the other Empyrean sets it's arguably the weakest of the lot. ****, the Bale+2 set might as well just be called Pearle+1. Sure you could point to one or two pieces that are better than previous items, but the set as whole just isn't that great.


A bunch of drivel not worth quoting.


I see from your asinine post that you failed miserably to read my entire post before spouting off. Not that I should expect much from someone that can take my simple statement that Magians is so godawful boring that I refuse to subject myself to it , and somehow manage to interpret that as it's too easy to get good gear. Normally this is where I would point out the many mistakes in your post, but frankly, you're not worth the minute or so of my time it would take to type it out.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 5:00am by Turin
#35 Jun 05 2011 at 3:20 AM Rating: Decent
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The DRK empyrean as a whole is better than most melee sets as a whole. Not only that, but most melee only use pieces of their empy, not the whole set, so your argument is not only fallacious but stupid as well.
#36 Jun 05 2011 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I love Vana Diel and new MMO's don't even compare to what an amazing world it is, to what kind of stories it holds and what not. I don't want to play another MMO and people should not be told to do such for wanting the one they care about to be properly developed and taken care of. Would SE tell some one "This game is old, go play something else?" or should they concentrate on saying "Hey, we have had this game for a decade now. We have a diehard following and soon we are going to completely revamp it, overhaul it and add a huge new expansion!


I agree with everything you say except the part where we exclude X amount of people from playing the game we love because they play it on a different forum than you.
#37 Jun 05 2011 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I agree with everything you say except the part where we exclude X amount of people from playing the game we love because they play it on a different forum than you.


It's most of us get an game that survives and even thrives, or we let PS2 players drag this game to an earlier death than need be. I've never seen someone sympathize with cancer until I fyn and his ilk.


FFXI could easily last another decade with better numbers than it has now if they did an overhaul, added a nice new expansion with the love and care they gave the original trilogy, and some actual advertising in the NA market.
#38 Jun 05 2011 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quinildorff wrote:
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I love Vana Diel and new MMO's don't even compare to what an amazing world it is, to what kind of stories it holds and what not. I don't want to play another MMO and people should not be told to do such for wanting the one they care about to be properly developed and taken care of. Would SE tell some one "This game is old, go play something else?" or should they concentrate on saying "Hey, we have had this game for a decade now. We have a diehard following and soon we are going to completely revamp it, overhaul it and add a huge new expansion!


I agree with everything you say except the part where we exclude X amount of people from playing the game we love because they play it on a different forum than you.


There's a difference between "different" and "obsolete" here. I'll come out and say it: The PS2 is obsolete.

We just retired a 20 year old television (well, it was my room mate's and she moved out and is going to retire it.) 30" giant CRT monstrosity. Weighed 150 lbs. It still showed an okay picture, technically. But we couldn't do anything new with it - we've never been able to get a computer hooked up to it because it just didn't have the connections for it and the Svideo didn't work right.

And now we've replaced it with a brand new lovely 40" LED, and we came to the startling realization that we have no way of hooking up the PS2 to that for the same reasons we couldn't hook up a computer to the CRT. The technology is just from too great a generation gap. The PS2's connection technology is obsolete compared to our shiny new television. Even if I did get the necessary adapters, the PS2 would be completely incapable of taking advantage of the HD graphics and would look horrible on the TV. It'd be pointless.

We're going to eBay the PS2, probably. And if it doesn't sell, we'll box it up in an attic next to the old SNES and Atari Lynx.

Why should a handful of people clinging to obsolete technology ruin things for everyone else?
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#39 Jun 05 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Default
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Why should a handful of people clinging to obsolete technology ruin things for everyone else?


Because it's a PS2 game.

Quite frankly, as a PS2 user, I really don't care if the spoiled brats with their fancy schmancy PCs feel like things are being "ruined" for them when they're already playing a significantly better looking game than I am.
#40 Jun 05 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
fancy schmancy PCs
I wouldn't consider a $300 Walmart eMachine "fancy" by any stretch of the imagination.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 5:55pm by lolgaxe
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#41 Jun 05 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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ITS NOT THE LOOKS YOU BLOODY ******! IT'S THE LACK OF STORAGE, THE LACK OF NEW AREAS, AND THE SLOW AGONIZING DEATH EACH UPDATE PATCH BRINGS FFXI A STEP CLOSER TO!

SE doesn't even support the PS2 anymore according to their own Customer Service reps and GMs.
#42 Jun 05 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
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Why should a handful of people clinging to obsolete technology ruin things for everyone else?


Because it's a PS2 game.

Quite frankly, as a PS2 user, I really don't care if the spoiled brats with their fancy schmancy PCs feel like things are being "ruined" for them when they're already playing a significantly better looking game than I am.


You can buy a brand new computer for less than you can a brand new fat PS2, an Xbox, or PS3.

If SE dropped PS2 support and added, say, Linux support, you could probably run FFXI on a $150 nettop computer or a OLPC. Or if they added Android support, you could undoubtedly play it on a smart phone. A smart phone which, by the by, is more powerful than a PS2.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 9:24pm by catwho
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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#43 Jun 06 2011 at 10:43 AM Rating: Default
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I can keep playing as is for free.

Only time can tell but I sure hope they don't do this. Would suck to see them ***** over one set of people who may have been playing for 10 years or more to make another set happy.

If you are not happy with what the game is you should find a new game, or they should find a way to make it better for everyone. Nuke a few zones, move the quest npcs from those area to new area, something. Surely there is a middle road of some sort.
#44 Jun 06 2011 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
Why should a handful of people clinging to obsolete technology ruin things for everyone else?


Because it's a PS2 game.

Quite frankly, as a PS2 user, I really don't care if the spoiled brats with their fancy schmancy PCs feel like things are being "ruined" for them when they're already playing a significantly better looking game than I am.


You can buy a brand new computer for less than you can a brand new fat PS2, an Xbox, or PS3.

If SE dropped PS2 support and added, say, Linux support, you could probably run FFXI on a $150 nettop computer or a OLPC. Or if they added Android support, you could undoubtedly play it on a smart phone. A smart phone which, by the by, is more powerful than a PS2.

Edited, Jun 5th 2011 9:24pm by catwho


They don't have to add linux support. The appdb at Wine has FFXI with a platinum rating. The last few tests look very good for the linux crowd.


Quote:

I read the spiel, and one thing that stood out is how he seems to think that the Empyrean gear is the greatest stuff ever made. Well, for some jobs it is, but at least for DRK it's pretty **** mediocre. Oh sure, it's good in comparison to previous gear that's DRK exclusive, but when compared to the other Empyrean sets it's arguably the weakest of the lot. ****, the Bale+2 set might as well just be called Pearle+1. Sure you could point to one or two pieces that are better than previous items, but the set as whole just isn't that great.


I don't know what this has to do with the OP, but for me personally, I see no need to upgrade from my AF set. I don't care that a bunch of spoiled brats with their fancy schmancy Emperyean think things are being ruined for them when they are already enjoying a significant boost in perfomance.

And yes, that's how silly I think the Ps2 comment that inspired it was. I'm not trying to be offensive, but, really?
#45 Jun 06 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Just dropping PS2 support won't magically change the capabilities and limitations of the client for the PC and 360 would it? Wouldn't they still need to alter or perhaps totally remake the game client for those platforms? If so, do folks really think it's really likely they would?
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#46 Jun 06 2011 at 2:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Camiie wrote:
Just dropping PS2 support won't magically change the capabilities and limitations of the client for the PC and 360 would it? Wouldn't they still need to alter or perhaps totally remake the game client for those platforms? If so, do folks really think it's really likely they would?


FFXI really needs a reprogramming from the ground up. The necessity of PS2 support is the major factor preventing such a reprogramming from occurring. However, if they did drop PS2 and reprogram the guts they could 1. add PS3 support at the same time and 2. significantly improve many of the limiting factors of the game, such as storage issues, zone limitations, server limitations, etc.

Will they? Likely not. But at least they could stop hiding behind the PS2 as their excuse and would have to give the real reason, "It'd be too hard or too labor intensive to bother."
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#47 Jun 06 2011 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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In case you non-PS2 players weren't made aware, SE is dropping PS2 support... although not explicitly. I notice that when I talk to NPCs (mostly event Moogles and outpost vendors) there is a delay between when I start the interaction to when any text comes up. During that delay, I can chat but I can't use any menus (and thus can't call a GM). The delay can last as long as half an hour... maybe more but I don't have the patience to find out.

Honestly I don't see SE dropping PS2 support as long as a decent number of players still use the platform. Sony really screwed SE with the hardware support for FFXI, so it's doubtful that SE would buy into a scheme to appease PS2 players moving to another similar platform either. Which is too bad because if SE made FFXI into a downloadable PS3 game, I would jump on that in an instant.
#48 Jun 07 2011 at 7:48 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Will they? Likely not. But at least they could stop hiding behind the PS2 as their excuse and would have to give the real reason, "It'd be too hard or too labor intensive to bother."

As long as the game supports the PS2, SE isn't "hiding behind" anything, and keeping the PS2 supported is indeed "the real reason." It's silly that you're characterizing SE as a bunch of dishonest people who refuse to man up.
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#49 Jun 07 2011 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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I imagine making new content work on the PS2 must be like trying to use Arcane magic and eyes of newt to display interactive images in a magical box.

Edited, Jun 7th 2011 3:02pm by Return1
#50 Jun 07 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Good
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svlyons wrote:
catwho wrote:
Will they? Likely not. But at least they could stop hiding behind the PS2 as their excuse and would have to give the real reason, "It'd be too hard or too labor intensive to bother."

As long as the game supports the PS2, SE isn't "hiding behind" anything, and keeping the PS2 supported is indeed "the real reason." It's silly that you're characterizing SE as a bunch of dishonest people who refuse to man up.


You've not been around a big business environment, have you? I'm talking about, in an office building around the top executives. It's the same way in politics to. I think it's silly that so many people romanticize and put their trust in Square Enix thinking they're good guys. I'm not saying they're bad, but business is business, and using excuses is literally just part of business. You tell people "We can't do this because _____" when in actuality it was something a bit different. As long as it's not a complete lie and you can hide behind it, people will use it.

It's already quite obvious that their production team has been cut down to a bare minimum, sadly. Yes, it's true, Square Enix doesn't want to put the money involved into this game, they've almost outright said so themselves with endeavors like FFXIV and other projects.

People need to realize, good or bad, at the end of the day Square Enix doesn't care about your adventures in Vana Diel, nor should they. It's a business. It's about profit. A few of the developers may, but they have to answer to corporate.
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#51 Jun 07 2011 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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I really, really want FFXI on the Vita now.

You hear that, SE and Sony? Release FFXI for the Vita and I will run out and BUY a Vita and BUY another copy of a game I've already bought three copies of!
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I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

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