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Fix NIN. Some suggestions.Follow

#1 Aug 27 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Currently, NIN is in really bad shape. It specializes at nothing and doesn't do anything that great.

It can enfeeble, but Hojo: Ni is a joke compared to Slow II.

It can do damage, but all the two handed DD's, and to a lesser extent THF and DNC, can all DD better, *AND* don't have a crappy Weapon skill. Face it, Jin being our best WS is..bad.

It can't main heal, or support.

It can't really tank all that well anymore compared to a PLD, and almost any job can tank just as well as NIN just by subbing it as a sub job. The only things it can still tank better than another job subbing it, are things that have bad accuracy, which is few and between now a days, and PLD can still tank most of those better too.

Simple suggestions, and fixes.

Help it tank:

Some type of Specialization trait. Enhanced effect for :Ichi spells.

This would give 4 shadow to utsu ichi, increase resist down effect on ichi elementals, etc. So, now NIN would have 7 shadows, and stronger resist down spells should they for whatever reason want them. Then, go even further, and give Ninja Shadow Mastery or something. This would half the amount of shadows taken from multi-hits and aga spells. So if an aga spell would take all, or a TP attack would take all, it would only remove half (rounded up). So Thundaga III removes 2 shadows if 3 were up, etc.

Give us a JA that consumes remaining shadows and allows us to add enmity to the monster based on how many were remaining. IE: If it isn't hitting you what good are those shadows doing for you?

There, tanking Ninja is fixed and not overpowered.

Help it DD:

Give it better Dual Wield, give it a better WS because Jin is outdated to holy ****, lower Futae recast to 1min and make it 100% more instead of 50%. Give us something that lets us SC with ourselves. Maybe sacrifice 1 shadow to add an element of our choosing to the mob. There, DD ninja is fixed, pretty badass, and isn't overpowered at all.

Do something. I want to play Ninja at things again.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 7:13am by Zafire
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#2 Aug 27 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It has been interesting to see how all jobs left NIN in the dust, and the only job that stuck around to keep them company was SMN. Both job are extreme hybrids that can do a lot decently, in a game that favors max results.

I kind of disagree with you, but I don't play NIN so my knowledge is limited. But I don't think you can balance NIN by making it a DD comparable to others, a debuffer comparable to others, a tank comparable to others etc.

If you are a hybrid, you have to accept that you'll be worse than others. If you parse 5% and a MNK 25%, then yes, you need to be raised in damage. But if it were like 18% NIN and 25% MNK, it wouldn't be that terrible, because you are a hybrid after all.

If you've seen my threads (which should be impossible to miss) I never ask for potency rivaling others. I ask to be at about 75% potency of others. Kind of crappy, but crappy in so many areas I become good.

So lets say a THF WS for 400. If your NIN WS for 300, it really isn't worth complaining about because you are fairly close. If a COR QD for 250 damage, and your ninjutsu do about 200 damage per minute, it isn't so bad either.

But as I said, I have no knowledge of NIN so I can't say if you actually are far behind, or just slightly behind. I do know you are treated just as poorly as SMN by both updates and popularity.
#3 Aug 27 2010 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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But as I said, I have no knowledge of NIN so I can't say if you actually are far behind, or just slightly behind. I do know you are treated just as poorly as SMN by both updates and popularity.


My RDM DD's better then my NIN does. Mostly because of enspells, but still. It shouldn't be, period

Also, THF's Dancing Edge damage is way ahead of Jin's, by quite a bit. It's almost sad how bad their best weapons skill is. Okay no..It is.

:/

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 2:09pm by Zafire
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#4 Aug 27 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Zafire wrote:
This would give 4 shadow to utsu ichi, increase resist down effect on ichi elementals, etc. So, now NIN would have 7 shadows,
8, NIN already gets 4 with Ni.
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#5 Aug 27 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I suggested this before, but I'll suggest it again. There should be a spell set list for NIN. Every ninjutsu will still be available, but the ones that are set on the list offer enhanced effects upon being cast, as well as requiring no tools to do so.

Let's just call the max # of spells able to be set 5 for now. NIN has access to 30 spells (32 after this coming update). The NIN sets Utsusemi: Ichi, Utsusemi: Ni, Aisha: Ichi, Doton: San, and Tonko: Ni. Now here's some ideas of what happens upon each cast:

Utsusemi: Ichi - User gets 3 shadows and gets increased Fast Cast.
Utsusemi: Ni - User gets 4 shadows and gets increased Evasion and Parry rates.
Aisha: Ichi - Enemy's attack is lowered and user's attack is raised by the same % for a short while.
Doton: San - Enemy takes earth damage and receives lower wind elemental resistance and the user receives a Stoneskin effect.
Tonko: Ni - User gains the effect of Invisible and Quickening.

Adding the elemental defensive buffs onto the San nukes when set to this spell list would also have the added benefit of making those merits more worthwhile. Ichi nukes could do Enspell I, Ni nukes could do Enspell II, etc.

Edited, Aug 27th 2010 3:51pm by Seitekifu
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#6 Aug 27 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
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I suggested this before, but I'll suggest it again.


That would be kinda badass. Definitely make me want to consider leveling nin.
#7 Aug 27 2010 at 6:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the idea about giving extra buffs to ninja buffs, but only as Nin main.

Also, if level progression continues for JT's, nin will have Dual wield V at lv85 (Totalling a -40% Delay reduction for nin. DW1: 10% DW2: 15% DW3: 25% DW4 30%, so DW5: 40%).

If they aren't planning this already, they really should. It would be a very nice boost and not incredibly overpowered.
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#8 Aug 29 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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You know, NIN was supposed to be a ranged and magic DD at its creation. Have you ever tried playing it like that? Because I have, and it wasn't difficult to top the charts doing so.

In other words, don't just autoattack and weaponskill, and then complain when your damage is low. It's not how NIN was designed to be played, kinda like if you never used SA and TA on THF - the damage would be pathetic.

Edited, Aug 29th 2010 11:56am by Speedly
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#9 Aug 30 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Speedly wrote:
You know, NIN was supposed to be a ranged and magic DD at its creation. Have you ever tried playing it like that? Because I have, and it wasn't difficult to top the charts doing so.

Was this at level 75+? Or level 40 to 50?
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#10 Aug 30 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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So you have been using Fuma shurikens and nuking with a appropiate sub and gear ?
Nice you managed to change subs on the fly from rdm to rng or what....
I call Bull@#%^ on that.


Yes Shurikens are potentially very nice but if you think about it for a moment you realize they will be more of a pain to use than anything else.
First of all you would need a good ranged acc set thus gimping your meele speed, and interrupting the attack rounds to throw the thing. (not to mention how the @#%^ you going to carry all that extra sh*t)
Sure with good timing you will end up with attack rounds that hit 3 times (2 meele+1 throw) but your weapon delay will still be reset after the throw is done.
Shurikes have low delay so tp gain from the throws will be pretty low.

Now i never used Fuma Shurikens but i doubt you will do 250dmg+ a throw and gain 10 TP from it to justify going /rng or something over nin/war in full haste gear and hit 4-6 times in the same time you would have taken to toss one Shuriken and 2 meele hits.
Not to mention Ranged acc is still broken only because RNG does good at 80 it doesn't mean nin will because you dont get acc bonus out the ***.

You will not be hitting HNM with this... go ahead and use them on a IT-VT Mob and come back saying you want to use Ranged attacks without the Acc bonus trait...

What i want for nin is:

Finish the old spells already god ****, lvl 85 and still no Jubaku: Ni and you @#%^ing sh*tting me?
More Dual wield traits, why the **** is DNC getting more, yes Dagger is even worse than Katana but still...
Inin/Yonin on Hasso/Seigan timers
A Decaying Crit rate JA (+25-5%)3minDUR/5minRE that works no matter where your standing
Counter or Counterstance like JA
Utsu San

No more Ichi spells... most mobs dont even live long enough ouside of Solo to bother with the long cast time.






Edited, Aug 30th 2010 12:44pm by DosenMilch

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 12:46pm by DosenMilch

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 12:47pm by DosenMilch
#11 Aug 30 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yes Shurikens are potentially very nice
Actually they're not. Katanas do more damage.
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#12 Aug 30 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
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yea well thx cpt obvious... thats what i said.
#13 Aug 30 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Good
At one point in time NINs were one of the best jobs to bring to a merit party and 2h jobs were loljobs and were on these same forums begging for fixes.Then 2h got buffed and NIN's QQ'd. Now NINs are in the same spot 2h once were, the tables have turne. If you complain enough you'll get your fix, but NIN isn't as bad as 2h are because NIN is not just a DD they're a tank.

I'm not a NIN so I don't know if my suggestions are valid but I am a PLD and I know NINs can't hold hate as well as a PLD because of the nerfs to spell enmity and that NIN has no native hate making tools. So since PLD is all about defense/hp/high enmity tools, why can't NIN be about evasion/status ailments/damage? They could make NIN a better tank by giving them abilities that increase their attack speed or damage dealt which raises their ability to hold hate.

Ideas:
-Give them an Itchi and Ni 'Provoke' ninjutsu to eliminate the need for /WAR or /DRK for tanking making other subs more interesting like /PLD, /THF or /RNG perhaps.
-Increase the accuracy of debuff Ninjutsu or release a line of San debuff spells.
-Give NIN 'Shuriken Mastery' which increases accuracy and damage dealt by throwing shurikens by a substantial amount and give them tiers of it. Overhaul the synth recipes for shurikens and make them cheaper or yield a higher amount per synth. Introduce higher level shurikens with higher base damage.
-Give NIN a tier or two of Accuracy Bonus after level 50(so it couldn't be subbed) to help with their accuracy and ranged accuracy. And increase their Throwing to A+. NINs excelled in throwing in previous games, so NIN should be reliable throwing in this one.
-Finally make a line of throwing weapon skills , it's easy to do, just copy and paste all the archery/throwing weapon skills and rename them since they're exactly the same but put the throwing animation instead of the shooting/aiming animation. It's lame that they wouldn't be brand new ws but it's better than nothing.

Edited, Aug 30th 2010 12:46pm by TheHolyDragoonSeraphus
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#14 Aug 30 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Good
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DosenMilch wrote:
yea well thx cpt obvious... thats what i said.
Not sure why you said potentially very nice then, since they do not have any potential to be nice. They do **** damage.
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#15 Aug 31 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Default
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Give us our Ninjutsu Ichi line of spells at Lv50-75, anything above 75 should be Ni or San tiers.

Change Ninja's merits to make them f*cking worth spending merits on, spending merits for +2DAMAGE on T1 merits isn't worth it at all, add MAB/MAcc/Increased effect to T1 merits.

Current NIN Merits:
Quote:
* Subtle Blow Effect (+1 per upgrade)
* Katon Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Hyoton Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Huton Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Doton Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Raiton Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Suiton Effect (+2 damage and +2 seconds resist down per upgrade)

Change it to:
Quote:
* Subtle Blow Effect (+3 per upgrade)
* Katon Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Hyoton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Huton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Doton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Raiton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Suiton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)


Fix Ninjutsu, Ichi spells(subable) shouldn't have the same resistance down potency as San spells. give Nin :san line of Hojo/Jubako/Kurayami/Dokumori and give them higher potency than their ichi and ni counterparts.

oh and add better TOM Katanas with elemental affinity similar to the staves, NIN is a hybrid job afterall.

Edited, Aug 31st 2010 9:24am by Sequ
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#16 Aug 31 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Not sure why you said potentially very nice then, since they do not have any potential to be nice. They do sh*t damage.


Well on paper they are nice. High dmg and low delay, but that doesn't take into account that there is a set cooldown between ranged attacks and a delay rest for meele after a /ra.
I wouldn't say they do sh*t damage its just that meele with the right gear will do much more dmg on XP level mobs.

IF you could hit them on a regular base against Mobs that actually matter (read: while tanking bosses etc.) they would out do Katana dmg but the problem is they dont so they are pointless.






Edited, Aug 31st 2010 1:24pm by DosenMilch
#17 Sep 01 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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All they need to do is get rid of tools and let us use mp, or have tools store like temp items or puppet attachments. Quit making katanas with dagger dmg, Katanas should easily match swords in dmg. add dot effect to elemental ninjitsu. lower resist dont do crap cause if it did each ninjitsu cast would out dmg the last if you use them in the right order. Add weapon skills that dont do magic dmg. Its dumb no matter what weapon you use. evisceration with 230 dagger skill is most times better than jin with 294 skill wtf. allow us high ranking in other weapons like swords and fix the tp gain for dualwielding 5 tp a hit is ********* Blink tanking was created by the players we need to get away from that let pld do that by themselves. I dont want to tank on nin cause it take more work than its worth. Maybe some ability that lets us steal emnity from one pt member with a 30 sec recast could help if people actually want to tank on nin. double attack trait wouldnt hurt either especialy if we gonna have to deal with weak *** katanas. all the ninjitsu does the same dmg and they all suck. San line of spell are stupid and take to long to cast. What the **** is the point in throwing not many items in game do dmg to make it worth while, and with the delay on throwing item its just a waste of time especialy since throwing has no weapon skills.
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#18 Sep 01 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
* Subtle Blow Effect (+3 per upgrade)
* Katon Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Hyoton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Huton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Doton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Raiton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)
* Suiton Effect (+5 damage, +5 Magic attack bonus, +5 Magic Accuracy, +5 effect and +5 seconds resist down per upgrade)

If you get this, my BLU gets 6 MP/tic of Refresh, no spellsets necessary.

A little on the overpowered side.

Quote:
All they need to do is get rid of tools and let us use mp, or have tools store like temp items or puppet attachments. Quit making katanas with dagger dmg, Katanas should easily match swords in dmg. add dot effect to elemental ninjitsu. lower resist dont do crap cause if it did each ninjitsu cast would out dmg the last if you use them in the right order. Add weapon skills that dont do magic dmg. Its dumb no matter what weapon you use. evisceration with 230 dagger skill is most times better than jin with 294 skill wtf. allow us high ranking in other weapons like swords and fix the tp gain for dualwielding 5 tp a hit is bullsh*t. Blink tanking was created by the players we need to get away from that let pld do that by themselves. I dont want to tank on nin cause it take more work than its worth. Maybe some ability that lets us steal emnity from one pt member with a 30 sec recast could help if people actually want to tank on nin. double attack trait wouldnt hurt either especialy if we gonna have to deal with weak *** katanas. all the ninjitsu does the same dmg and they all suck. San line of spell are stupid and take to long to cast. What the **** is the point in throwing not many items in game do dmg to make it worth while, and with the delay on throwing item its just a waste of time especialy since throwing has no weapon skills.

As I said in the THF Dual-Wield thread, line breaks, dude.
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#19 Sep 01 2010 at 9:54 PM Rating: Decent
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sequ wrote:
+5 seconds resist down per upgrade
fyi, duration doesn't matter for them, since the -resist only lasts a single nuke/spell.
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#20 Sep 02 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Default
R.att are supposed to reset melee delay because in previous FF games, using throw or shooting a bow took up a 'turn' so resetiing delay is the spiritual successor of that mechanic in this game. They ought to rework how throwing damage is calculated though and to increase throwing's reliability. If shurikens are that expensive but do meh damage they should really have 150-200 DMG on them instead of the low damage they have now. Make them do extremely high damage like they did in past FF games to warrant their high price, again like in older FFs where 1 shuirken was like 50,000g.
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#21 Sep 02 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Good
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TheHolyDragoonSeraphus wrote:
in older FFs where 1 shuirken was like 50,000g.
In older ffs, spending a billion gil on junk wasn't a big deal.
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#22 Sep 02 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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-Finally make a line of throwing weapon skills , it's easy to do, just copy and paste all the archery/throwingmarks weapon skills and rename them since they're exactly the same but put the throwing animation instead of the shooting/aiming animation. It's lame that they wouldn't be brand new ws but it's better than nothing.


I think their response originally to this was PS2 limitations, which I call BS especially with all the new weaponskills they've added since then (Automaton, Mythic, Campaign, 290/300 skill, and now Empyrean). Wouldn't be too hard to make a line of Throwing Weaponskills imo. Would get 7 weaponskills at skill level 5, 40, 80, 175, 200, 225, 290 just like Archery and Marks. However Archery/Marks will still have more WSs since there is no WSNM/Relic/Mythic/Empyrean for a Chakram (would suck to do a TotM on a Shuriken unless the augment made it magically reappear in inventory after use).
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#23 Sep 02 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Good
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fyi, duration doesn't matter for them, since the -resist only lasts a single nuke/spell.


ANY spell? Even those that aren't the ninjutsu wheel?

Like, if you tried casting Suiton for a BLM alliance, only one BLM would get the added accuracy on his Thunder XVII (and only if his spell lands before any other one)?

That's kinda lameness if it's true

Edited, Sep 2nd 2010 4:03pm by Fynlar
#24 Sep 02 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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fyi, duration doesn't matter for them, since the -resist only lasts a single nuke/spell.
ANY spell? Even those that aren't the ninjutsu wheel?

Like, if you tried casting Suiton for a BLM alliance, only one BLM would get the added accuracy on his Thunder XVII (and only if his spell lands before any other one)?

That's kinda lameness if it's true
I can't say for sure if it's any spell, or just any spell of the appropriate element, but yes, only one blm would get the -resist. It was meant to help a nin rotating the wheel, not for manaburning. Still has some use for rdm/nin soloing, especially now with tier2 nin nukes (0 damage tier1 nukes were always fun to use on slept/bound mobs for some free -resists though Smiley: grin).
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#25 Sep 02 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Interesting, do you happen to have the link of where this was tested?

I was always under the assumption that it lasted for the 20 some odd seconds until it wore off or until you casted another Ninjutsu elemental nuke(to change the resist down or overwrite the timer). :-/
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