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SMN Perpetuation And MagianFollow

#152AlexanderrOfAsura, Posted: Sep 04 2010 at 3:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because if you want to get something to make Smn better, like increasing dmg and expanding enhancing/enfeebling while at the same time also lowering costs or perp, then smn ought to have something taken away from it.
#153 Sep 04 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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To all those who say that smn needs a nerf to "equal out" any buffs, let me remind you of this: summoner pet melee is a joke in all but solo or lowman situations. All perp cost does is hurt summoner soloing. It doesn't affect summoner's utility basically at all in large-man endgame. All the ninja perp cost increase did was ***** summoner solo and summoner in lowman events, and that is entirely uncalled for.

Otherwise, I agree that hate-free is quite powerful. It's the defining aspect of summoner. As such, summoner shouldn't be able to outdo the raw damage, raw buffing, or raw debuffing of other jobs, otherwise it's broken. Right now, the magic damage is close I think to other jobs, but I suspect that other jobs could outdo summoner if hate is not an issue. However, smn buffing and debuffing, including favors, is laughable, near useless apart from hastega at the moment.

I rejoice that SE decided to un-nerf summoner solo. Thanks SE.

Edited, Sep 4th 2010 6:11pm by GerrardCapashen
#154 Sep 04 2010 at 4:22 PM Rating: Default
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I am not saying smn needs a big nerf if it gets anything. Just that if we want to boost all aspects of it AND knock down perpetuation a chunk, SE isn't going to go for it. It would have to involve losing our almost enmity free actions to get the buffs and perpetuation decrease/cost decrease.
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#155 Sep 04 2010 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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AlexanderrOfAsura wrote:
Because if you want to get something to make Smn better, like increasing dmg and expanding enhancing/enfeebling while at the same time also lowering costs or perp, then smn ought to have something taken away from it.
That would only be the case if we were balanced or effective as is. It is not necessary to remove something to improve a job.

Pretty sure PUP didn't lose anything for all their new toys.
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#156 Sep 04 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I am not saying smn needs a big nerf if it gets anything. Just that if we want to boost all aspects of it AND knock down perpetuation a chunk, SE isn't going to go for it. It would have to involve losing our almost enmity free actions to get the buffs and perpetuation decrease/cost decrease.


You'd have a point, if SMN wasn't in need of a huge boost because it was behind other jobs.

COR vs SMN buffs
- SMN has worst selection
- SMN has shortest duration
- SMN has highest MP cost
- SMN has shortest range
- SMN is most gear dependent
- SMN has lowest potency
- Both are equal at hate gain (Except healing ruby)
- COR *might* bust

Does it look like a fair balance? I'm not saying SMN should be better at any points than COR, but does it have to be worse is my question. Do Wards have to cost MP for example? Let me rephrase that, do stratagems need to cost MP? No, so a mage does not have to pay MP for all their abilities. (Actually do any other than SMN pay MP for abilities?)

(You can always argue DD output of the both jobs, but it is incredibly cumbersome. COR > SMN in killing normal enemies. SMN > COR in farming weak mobs. COR > SMN on some NMs, SMN > COR on others. SMN > COR on some HNM, COR > SMN on others. COR depending a lot on gear and support, SMN being pretty good naked.)



Besides you can't really change pet hate functionality. It wouldn't make sense to make the hate of a pet land on the master. Think about BSTs and their jugs. Think about PUPs and their matons. (DRGs on the other hand would cheer if their wyverns suddenly became hate free and all hate went to the master)

I'm also not sure what your issues are with hate. If you've ever soloed, you know that you already get hate way too easily while kiting so that more hate is not needed to make solo hard. In a party nobody should ever get hate from tank anyway, unless they do TOO MUCH damage, and have themselves to blame.

I see your point if you could actually pull out 5 predator claws in a row though. That would be considered TOO MUCH damage, and let you live, which would be unfair. But perpetuation, wards and even low level rage pacts are irrelevant for hate discussions. As long as you do not allow more than 2 70+ BPs per minute, you should be pretty well balanced with other jobs.

Of course an 18 SMN alliance would kick ***. But doesn't melee already kick so much *** they kill AV in less than 2 minutes? I think that is more to worry about than an alliance of SMNs possibly killing AV in 30 minutes. (I'd give each avatar about 5 seconds to live though)
#157AlexanderrOfAsura, Posted: Sep 04 2010 at 5:51 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not necessary, but would make more sense considering what a disappointing number of you people think summoner needs.
#158 Sep 05 2010 at 12:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hate-free is not as much a boon as you're making it out to be. It amounts to a few minutes where we can do damage others can't, outside a few very specific fights, and most DD can easily overcome the damage we just did. Between melee and mage DDs already toeing the line and tanks easily reaching cap, hate-free actions were robbed of much of their usefulness a long time ago. It used to matter back in the day, but SMN fell behind the power curve as everyone pulled ahead after the years of adjustments and now it's largely a gimmick and only sometimes useful. It's mostly used to stay alive, which we desperately need because we're spending every possible minute trying to make our taking up a party slot useful.

We need to be pulled up the power curve (where there are many ways of doing it, none of which require us to be better than specialists) and pretending like we need something taken away for it is not the way to go about it.

Edited, Sep 5th 2010 12:53am by jlejeune
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#159 Sep 05 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I am saying though that if we want everything improved to be as good as or slightly less than jobs that are devoted to a role while lowering both perpetuation and ability cost significantly.. We would have to take a hit some where to make up for it. Which would mean if you want our SMN almost comparable to these other jobs, we'll have to get rid of what separates us from the others.


There are always those who don't grasp balance and those who do. I happen to know what I'm talking about so your arguments do not relate to me. (For example I'm not asking to be even near as good as other jobs)

Spirits again:
True random would give 33% debuff and 66% nukes on fire/thunder spirit. Personally I've so much experience from these that I can safely say it is rather 66% debuff and 33% nukes. Let me explain the theory that matches the results.

Basic theory (incorrect)
Each spell has equal chance of being cast. (that is why shock, burst, thunder IV assumes 66% nuke)

Advanced theory (probably more correct)
Magic AI have 3 groups of spells. Debuffs, -ga, nukes. Pets don't have -ga for balance reasons, so debuffs are placed in this group instead. Result is Debuffs 33%, Debuffs 33%, nukes 33%, or simply put 66% debuffs and 33% nukes.

Now compare that to a PUP. A spirit would do 33% the damage of a puppet if both had same situation. But a puppet actually casts faster, and has access to more MAB, so it is more likely to assume 25% damage of a puppet.

Now follows the interesting balance question. Which of the following points would be balanced?

Spirit damage compared to puppet damage:
0%
10%
25%
33%
50%
66%
75%
100%
110%
125%

I'm pretty sure most of us will agree that disposable pets makes it below 100% match. But what is the highest acceptable value? If a PUP parsed 20% and a SMN parsed 10%, would it be balanced? Twist that question to if a THF does 10% and a WAR does 20%, is it balanced?

I'm actually so humble that I would say, yes balanced. A SMN should only really need to be able to cast HALF as many nukes as a PUP, since the job has other benefits. How do you guarantee HALF damage? By setting spirits to cast at same speed, but every second spell is a debuff. Simply put, a cycle of debuff -> nuke -> debuff -> nuke. Random starting point so you can't release + recast to get nukes all the time, and to avoid having to put up with debuffs all the time if your spirit keeps getting in trouble.


TLDR: Half as good as the focused jobs would be sufficient for SMN to become MUCH better than now. And that kind of speaks for itself about how weak SMN is as a class.
#160 Sep 05 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Some people in this game can't seem to get past the notion that hybrids have to suck in order to be balanced.
#161 Sep 05 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Seriha wrote:
Some people in this game can't seem to get past the notion that hybrids have to suck in order to be balanced.


You are missing sarcasm tags. Half the forum might think you actually mean it.
#162 Sep 05 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Good
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Mellowy wrote:
Seriha wrote:
Some people in this game can't seem to get past the notion that hybrids have to suck in order to be balanced.


You are missing sarcasm tags. Half the forum might think you actually mean it.


Joke's on them. I do~
#163 Sep 06 2010 at 8:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
There are always those who don't grasp balance and those who do. I happen to know what I'm talking about so your arguments do not relate to me. (For example I'm not asking to be even near as good as other jobs)

Spirits again:


stoppedreadingthere.jpg
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