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SMN Perpetuation And MagianFollow

#52 Jul 10 2010 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
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The interesting part is that the story never sets a number for perpetuation. 2 MP per tick at level 80 would have been just as reasonable from a story perspective. The actual size is just SE employees picking random numbers out of thin air and putting into the game.

Something that they should have observed all these years is carbuncle, which is heavily used as the pet that stays out. Not only has it 2 perpetuation less than competition, it halves that with an item. Meaning the ideal perpetuation decided on by the whole community is half of what we get.

Furthermore the basic idea, if it ever existed, should have been to restrict the time an avatar is around. Time is easily determined by MP/perpetuation*3. So these days at 80 you'd expect roughly 1000/15*3 = 200 seconds. Or ~3 min. If you are kind enough to include Favors and perhaps some -4 or so perpetuation, the calculation turns into 1000/9*3 = 333 or 6.5 min. Even a very well geared SMN would be looking at something like 1000/3*3 = 1000 seconds, or 16.5 minutes.

To reach that level though, you need all 8 staffs from magian trials which means kill 1175*8 mobs, or 9400 EP during day/weather.

It is hard to call it fair that a DRG only needs to avoid AOE damage to hit their wyvern for 16 minutes to keep it alive that long, but a SMN needs to kill 10 000 easy preys to match it... for level 80. Post 80 it will again become worse and require some 2500 more mobs extra per -perpetuation. Compared to Nirvana that needs 6500 kills, 10 000 kills is a bit extreme.

I don't know really. A PLD just have to walk out and make 1 or 2 -pdt swords, which can be leveled with dual wield at the same time. A SMN needs to make 8 staffs one at a time. I doubt even BLMs feel that they'll lose 13% damage if they do not level up 8 elemental nuke staffs.

No. Perpetuation needs to be fixed ASAP. Magian trial weapons also needs fixing, because it is unreasonable to force SMNs to get 8 magian weapons just to cancel out perpetuation increases. I have bahamut staff to cut down on inventory cloggage (I actually have 5 slots left, and couldn't even carry 8 new elemental staffs if I had them)

It is wrong. It is unfair. It is unreasonable. It is again Summoner that is the only one suffering. And it is completely expected, because SE has never shown a hint at caring for the class. As a casual programmer I could have solved all this in a week. Their expert programmers can't even do it in 10 years. If that isn't classed as not caring, I don't know what is.
#53 Jul 10 2010 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Let's try to find some common ground. Please stop as soon as you disagree. You do agree that they ninja-ed the perp cost to be higher than expected, right? You do agree that the dev team specifically planned both of these changes in conjunction, one relying on the other, right? Specifically, you do agree that a balancing decision was reached by the dev team which jacked the perp cost up abnormally, but offset it by the new Magian staffs, in order to result in more busy work by the summoners to be powerful, but to end in a state where they were not more powerful than where they started? (Not trying to be pejorative here about busy work. Just stating facts.) Thus, you do agree that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied to the ninja-ed perp cost increase, right?


No, I don't.

Perp cost has always risen with level; there is no reason to have expected otherwise. Also, it is natural to expect better gear to come out with a cap raise as well. Because both of these turned out to be true, you're assuming that one was only done because of the other, and that one was carefully built around the other? Where are you getting that from? It does not follow.

You have no real evidence of a direct link between the two; you are just scapegoating because you happen to not like the method for acquiring these things.

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4- Also, Magian content is horribly retarded, the worst content in the game, least fun by far, and should not be expanded at all.


Read: I'm too lazy to work for my gear.

By the way, this is precisely what I meant by not ******* in everyone else's corn flakes just because you don't like yours (even though I'm sure you understood this and you're just trying to act dense on purpose). I happen to enjoy this content because unlike most of "endgame", it's something that I'm actually able to do.

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It is one of my "feedback and suggestions" that leveling should always make your character better in every facet, or at least not worse. This is in direct contradiction to the summoner perpetuation system.


I know that, I've already said that SMN is the only job that punishes you for leveling it.

If only you had made your post just about that, I would have actually been able to support this thread. Instead, you've managed to come across as a whiner who wants to ruin a facet of the game for everyone else because you don't happen to enjoy it.



Now to the other genius in here:

Quote:
It is hard to call it fair that a DRG only needs to avoid AOE damage to hit their wyvern for 16 minutes to keep it alive that long, but a SMN needs to kill 10 000 easy preys to match it... for level 80.


You wanna know what else isn't fair? When something kills a DRG's pet 5 minutes after summoning it, he gets to go 15 minutes pet-less. What happens when something kills a SMN's pet within 5 minutes -- ****, 5 *seconds* -- after he summons it? Oh, nothing much at all; you just summon another one for a piddly MP cost.

SMNs get to pay MP perp for their pets because they are the most expendable pets. Make any argument you want about how perp is excessive -- I'll probably agree with you -- but please don't try to defend it via comparisons with other pet jobs. The jobs do not work the same way.

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A SMN needs to make 8 staffs


No, they don't.

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I doubt even BLMs feel that they'll lose 13% damage if they do not level up 8 elemental nuke staffs.


You're right, they don't feel that way (and not only that; it *isn't* that way). That's because they know what elements they use the most and just make the staves that apply towards those elements. You know, working smarter... not harder.

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As a casual programmer I could have solved all this in a week.


Anyone who's actually seen the kind of things you've suggested for this game (EXP in CB for doing nothing says hi) would know that you shouldn't be anywhere within a 100 mile radius of its development and programming.
#54 Jul 10 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
A SMN needs to make 8 staffs


No, they don't.
You're right, there's no reason to get a Surya's with -5 Perp. :D

Still, the system is bogus. Oh, I like the concept of Magian, but the way they split the staff augments is insulting, and punishes SMN even more. You need 7 of them just to cover the perp increase, only 1-2 have a genuine impact on damage and that's only if you feel like satcheling one or the other because they'll have the same name. Oh, I suppose you could stop at a Teiwaz for another damage staff, but that's forcing a SMN to not level a staff just to use it.

BLMs and SCHs, on the other hand, can use all 6 elements to improve damage. RDM too, but I'd make the case of sticking with the original HQ set for better accuracy. Even still, if a SMN has BLM, SCH, or perhaps RDM, or has the intention of leveling them in the future, you have to decide between a perp set or a damage set, but certainly not both Silly me.

That's not to mention mages (excluding WHM-only players, lucky bastiges) need 6-9 staffs to cover most of their bases with a SMN needing 9-10, whereas melees only need 1-2 weapons to cover most their bases (always the potential to munchkin for more, I do know that). Oh, you could forgo the entire staff set, it's true, but while all the other mages don't get actively hurt by it, SMNs still lose perp.

The whole staff section is, forgive the language, a crock of sh*t and SMN is again the redheaded stepchild of it. Why I enjoy that silly job, I do not know.

The rest of Magian is kinda coo' though.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 11:44am by jlejeune

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 1:49pm by jlejeune
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#55 Jul 10 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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SMN is not the only job with issues with staff trials, here. If I truly went the whole way and min/maxed everything that I wanted to, I would need more staves than a career SMN does. Nobody is forcing me to be a crazy min/maxer, and there certainly isn't anything forcing SMN to be, either.

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BLMs and SCHs, on the other hand, can use all 6 elements to improve damage. RDM too, but I'd make the case of sticking with the original HQ set for better accuracy.


Or they can, y'know, make the accuracy staves instead.

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Even still, if a SMN has BLM, SCH, or perhaps RDM, or has the intention of leveling them in the future, you have to decide between a perp set or a damage set, but certainly not both.


You don't have to decide that. If you're not playing SMN, put your perp staves away in your safe or something. If you are, put the other staves away.
#56 Jul 10 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
SMN is not the only job with issues with staff trials, here. If I truly went the whole way and min/maxed everything that I wanted to, I would need more staves than a career SMN does. Nobody is forcing me to be a crazy min/maxer, and there certainly isn't anything forcing SMN to be, either.
I didn't say SMN was. It is the only job hurt by not doing it though. I don't like the staff section in general because mages need several to cover just one aspect of a job whereas other jobs don't.

Fynlar wrote:
Or they can, y'know, make the accuracy staves instead.

Not really needed for debuffs, not the best option for nukes. Does somewhat depend on the player's current gear, though.

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You don't have to decide that. If you're not playing SMN, put your perp staves away in your safe or something. If you are, put the other staves away.
Yup, saw that after the fact, mistook the Ex tag for Rare.

So... 2 sets instead of one.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 2:06pm by jlejeune
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#57 Jul 10 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
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Let's try to find some common ground. Please stop as soon as you disagree. You do agree that they ninja-ed the perp cost to be higher than expected, right? You do agree that the dev team specifically planned both of these changes in conjunction, one relying on the other, right? Specifically, you do agree that a balancing decision was reached by the dev team which jacked the perp cost up abnormally, but offset it by the new Magian staffs, in order to result in more busy work by the summoners to be powerful, but to end in a state where they were not more powerful than where they started? (Not trying to be pejorative here about busy work. Just stating facts.) Thus, you do agree that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied to the ninja-ed perp cost increase, right?
No, I don't.

Perp cost has always risen with level; there is no reason to have expected otherwise. Also, it is natural to expect better gear to come out with a cap raise as well. Because both of these turned out to be true, you're assuming that one was only done because of the other, and that one was carefully built around the other? Where are you getting that from? It does not follow.

You have no real evidence of a direct link between the two; you are just scapegoating because you happen to not like the method for acquiring these things.
Again, please pick out which exact step(s) with which you disagree:

1- In the last update, they changed perpetuation from past patterns to be more perpetuation. See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Perpetuation_Cost
I shall hereafter refer to this as the nerf, the increase above past patterns. (Note that this applies specifically to Carbuncle, Fenrir, and the spirits. The evidence is less clear for the other avatars.)

2- In the same update, they added new staffs which perfectly offset the nerf.

3- The dev team, when deciding to do the nerf, also decided to do the new staffs which offset the nerf perfectly. That is, they were considered at the same time, in the same context, as inseparatable aspects of content; one cannot be done without the other.

I'm pretty sure you agree with 1. I could quote you else-thread admitting as much. I'm pretty sure you agree with 2. 1 and 2 are just questions of observable fact, so I hope there's no disagreement there. That leaves my conclusion, 3. I'm not quite sure how you can disagree with 3 given 1 and 2. At this point, you are certainly just being contrary because you are unable to admit to even yourself when you are wrong, or you are a troll. Either way, I await a sensible argument which addresses my particular points, as opposed to more "you're wrong" and straw men.

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4- Also, Magian content is horribly retarded, the worst content in the game, least fun by far, and should not be expanded at all.
Read: I'm too lazy to work for my gear.
There is more than one possible interpretation of that. Here's my equally libelous interpretation for you: "Waaaaa! Salvage is too hard!". Perhaps we can agree that we both appreciate different kinds of content, and from my perspective slaughtering thousands of Easy Prey mobs under capricious conditions does not constitute fun.

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By the way, this is precisely what I meant by not ******* in everyone else's corn flakes just because you don't like yours (even though I'm sure you understood this and you're just trying to act dense on purpose). I happen to enjoy this content because unlike most of "endgame", it's something that I'm actually able to do.
I'm sorry that my suggestions would result in a less fun game for you. I will still make them and attempt to be civil about it. I would appreciate it if you could remain civil as well.

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It is one of my "feedback and suggestions" that leveling should always make your character better in every facet, or at least not worse. This is in direct contradiction to the summoner perpetuation system.
I know that, I've already said that SMN is the only job that punishes you for leveling it.

If only you had made your post just about that, I would have actually been able to support this thread. Instead, you've managed to come across as a whiner who wants to ruin a facet of the game for everyone else because you don't happen to enjoy it.
Interesting. So now it's a zero sum game? Perhaps, could you disagree with the points with which you disagree, instead of a blanket negative attitude towards the entire thread? It seems unfair and unconstructive to myself, my other arguments, and all the other participants in this thread to badmouth everyone in it because you feel I'm a whiner in the forum whose expressed purpose is whining.

Also: so I like Salvage and don't like Magian, but you do like Magian and dislike Salvage. I'm glad you could finally be open with your feelings and attitudes. Apparently I do disagree with you strongly how the game should be. I will not apologize for that. To dev: please give me more things like Salvage (which isn't perfect) and less things like Magian (which isn't all horrible). That is, please give me more challenging encounters and content and less mindless drivel of slaughtering thousands of Easy Prey mobs under arbitrary and capricious conditions.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 6:37pm by GerrardCapashen
#58 Jul 11 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
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You wanna know what else isn't fair? When something kills a DRG's pet 5 minutes after summoning it, he gets to go 15 minutes pet-less. What happens when something kills a SMN's pet within 5 minutes -- ****, 5 *seconds* -- after he summons it? Oh, nothing much at all; you just summon another one for a piddly MP cost.

SMNs get to pay MP perp for their pets because they are the most expendable pets. Make any argument you want about how perp is excessive -- I'll probably agree with you -- but please don't try to defend it via comparisons with other pet jobs. The jobs do not work the same way.


You know, we can easily meet at the middle on this issue.

If an avatar dies or is released with < 50% HP, it will get perpetuation for the following 20 minutes. Call it "mental weakness" to go with the normal 5 min weakness on raised people. That way a SMN will just like a DRG or PUP get a penalty for 20 minutes if their pet dies. But if they manage to keep it alive, they have no penalty.

That way a careful DRG or SMN is treated equally. And unlucky DRGs and SMNs need to cut down on their "pet DoT". As fair as you can make it.

Coincidentally this gives us perpetuation solo, but no perpetuation in parties. Just as it should be.

Heck, am I up to 2 or 3 perfect solutions to the problem already in this thread? I wish SE would at least put some effort into reading these boards.
#59 Jul 11 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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has anyone tested the earrings and rings named of the elemental staff serious? I am doubting it grants -perp, but if it did it would be nice to have a definite -3 perp with two -1 earrings, and -1 with ring (without having to use conjurer's). That + refresh at 81, and convert now, with siphon should do the trick.

Also ++I'm hoping++ that mythic holders will likely see more - perp boost along with magian, and eventually an autorefresh 2 as i dont see how that could break summoner.
#60 Jul 21 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belgaer the Eccentric wrote:
Well let's be honest here, when has SE ever acknowledged making any mistake? I can't recall them ever having done so, though I can think of quite a few mistakes they've made. Just because the company never admitted it was a mistake doesn't mean it wasn't one.


That one time that Drain Samba worked for pets. They were very, very sorry that they made that mistake and were sure to apologize whole heartedly about the whole painful ordeal.
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#61 Jul 21 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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...and lets not forget the brief period where Aspir actually worked worth a crap....

Raist
#62 Jul 22 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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BDHERTZER wrote:
...and lets not forget the brief period where Aspir actually worked worth a crap....

Raist

Yeah, because Aspir was completely and totally useless before that update, and it's back to being completely and totally useless now.

/sarcasm
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#63 Jul 22 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
I am not one to comment to much on job classes I do not have 75+. However, I will come to fynlars defense in one regard. You should not ask for trial of the magian to be abandon just becuase it highlights what's wrong with your job class. Getting rid of magian will not solve your problems if it isn't the problem.


However the rest of the posts and the ops point are all things I agree with. Summoner should not be stuck at 75 becuase gaining levels puts them at a disadvantage.


On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?
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#64 Jul 22 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?
Nope.
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#65 Jul 22 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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My experience with the "broken Aspir" patch:

Fynlar casts Aspir.
200~ MP drained from the Greater Colibri.

<Fynlar> this is awesome!
The Greater Colibri casts Aspir.
250~ MP drained from Fynlar.

<Fynlar> ...ok, I'm over it


Edited, Jul 22nd 2010 4:49pm by Fynlar
#66 Jul 23 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
I am not one to comment to much on job classes I do not have 75+. However, I will come to fynlars defense in one regard. You should not ask for trial of the magian to be abandon just becuase it highlights what's wrong with your job class. Getting rid of magian will not solve your problems if it isn't the problem.
Your post has worth. You are quite correct that I should not say "Get rid of Magian!" solely because it was related to a nerf to summoner. The obvious solution there would be just not nerf summoner. However, as mentioned, I really hate Magian for the aforementioned reasons, and that is why I also want no more Magian content, and if by chance a miracle happened and all old Magian quests were changed to not drivel, or at least not overpowered compared to old content, I would rejoice.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2010 6:07pm by GerrardCapashen
#67 Jul 24 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?


SE probably count on refresh getting SMN -3 perp at 82SMN. Just sucks that when every other mage gets refresh, Summoner gets to use it as -perpetuation just to remain at the same level of "suck" as previously.

Would have been fun if there was a level when SMN suddenly GAINED MP instead of lost it.
#68 Aug 17 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Avatar perpetuation cost is manageable at level 80, but what would it be like at 99? My solution is by 90-99 making a quest that allows us to upgrade the Carbuncle Mitts to Avatar Mitts. Avatar mitts would cut Avatar perpetuation cost in half of all Avatars.
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#69 Aug 19 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Now, lets make this a BLM and RDM issue. You've played for years with all your spells costing the same amount. Now all of a sudden, you break a level cap and level up. You picked up two new spells, but they cost a lot to use. But I get new Magic Burst Bonus, and more INT/MND to work with so my old spells are more powerful/accurate now under the right conditions. But wait...wtf? all my previous spells are suddenly costing me more to use them??!! Oh, cool... there's magian trial weapons that will offset it. But...I have to do one weapon for each element to cover all my spells. Oh well... time to grind the hunt lists.

That isn't quite an accurate comparison I believe. The damage boost BLM gains just by leveling from 75 to 80, is like 12 more dmg on a Tier IV, and macc is moot cause all good BLM can easily cap mhitrate. We get no extra MAB trait, and just a few INT and an extra T2 or T3 of MP. I'm sure Avatar's get more stats, higher attack and defense and HP.

Try comparing the damage boost vs the perp cost at 75, and again at 80. Are avatars less powerful at 80 then 75 compared to the perp cost?

Either way people are complaining about the time sink of magian trials, but they really aren't that bad. Like a previous poster, how many avatars do you really keep out "all the time" anyway? Is it more then 3? I play just a few hours a day and I current managed to leveled 3 jobs to 80 in regular parties, and have fully unlocked 3 staffs for BLM. Compared to joining a shell back in the day, and getting points to lot kitty pants or any endgame ex gear over other people, the magian staffs are far easier to get.

3 maybe 4 days of playing and devoting all your time to it can get you a fully upgraded staff. As a regular endgame-er, I don't consider that a "big time sink"
#70 Aug 19 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Everything needs to be put in perspective.

1. It is cake to get a -3 perpetuation staff
2. 8 magian staffs is like 10 000 - 12 000 mob kills to get 8 inventory slots that give -5 perpetuation
3. The only reason you need to upgrade the staff is because SE increased your costs

In comparison it is like THFs LOSING triple attack trait at level 80, but being able to make a magian weapon with "triple attack" on it, by just killing 12 000 EP mobs on specific days. It is a whole load of work for just getting back to the point you just were at 5 levels ago.

It just screams insanity to remove something from a job and then add a fix that requires work. It would stop at stupidity if there was one staff with -5 perpetuation that required some 1 200 mob kills. It would have been called a sign of sanity if perpetuation hadn't grown. A brilliant mind would have removed it though, but we can't expect anyone of that caliber to work at SE.
#71 Aug 19 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
2. 8 magian staffs is like 10 000 - 12 000 mob kills to get 8 inventory slots that give -5 perpetuation
3. The only reason you need to upgrade the staff is because SE increased your costs

In comparison it is like THFs LOSING triple attack trait at level 80, but being able to make a magian weapon with "triple attack" on it, by just killing 12 000 EP mobs on specific days. It is a whole load of work for just getting back to the point you just were at 5 levels ago.

It just screams insanity to remove something from a job and then add a fix that requires work. It would stop at stupidity if there was one staff with -5 perpetuation that required some 1 200 mob kills. It would have been called a sign of sanity if perpetuation hadn't grown. A brilliant mind would have removed it though, but we can't expect anyone of that caliber to work at SE.

I know only a bit about avatars and their strengths but please outline how you need all 8 of them, and why you can't make do with 3 for melee. You NEED to be able to have the all out with free perp? SMNers in my ls, I only see melee with 1 or 2, rest are used for certain buffs only, but feel free to enlighten me.

And for the THF example, for it to be true, when you did get those kills, the triple attack you "Regain" would be stronger then before. Again I assume avatars gain strength from 75-80?

And lets say you do need every one of those staffs for smner to be good, you could unlock them in a month if you went hardcore at it. Duo with my roommate I got her 2 unlocked damage sticks in 3 days.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 1:58pm by Reynark
#72 Aug 19 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Seems like you don't actively use SMN. I do. It is the only job I spend more time on other than BLM. So, apparently you don't have a firm grasp of how this affects gameplay.

I have both BLM and SMN to 80. I did that more or less doing magian trials from level 76--and have only managed to get MNK to 77 because LS needed a DD for a couple hours in abyssea one night. I still have 4 other jobs to get to 80. I have done almost NOTHING but magian trials since the update--I break off to do abbyssea an average of once a week, and spend one afternoon doing mission fights/BCNM's for LS. I am currently unemployed, and am able to dedicate 8 hours or more of gameplay on most days. Because4 of the nature of HOW you have to kill the mobs on these lists, uyou often don't get to team up with anyone, and are left to solo about 90% of the lists. I have completed an Ice and Thunder stick for BLM, and Fenrir's staff for SMN. Shiva is 1 stage from completion, Ramuh almost to -4 perp stage, and Garuda is 1 stage from -4 perp stage. I still have over 1200 kills to finish those 3 staves...and we are about to get another level cap increase.

And yes, I use those avatars a lot, and have them out for extended amounts of time. I also use Leviathin a lot too, and haven't even started his staff yet.

It's a matter of efficiency. NO OTHER JOB IS AS DEPENDANT ON A MAGIAN WEAPON AS SMN.

And because of the way they implemented it, it is one of the worst grinds amongst the "normal" lists for upgrades. Some jobs complete a weapon in only 675 kills--and it can be useful on more than one job. These take 1000 kills each, multiple lines, and only benefit ONE job. Any job /SMN can negate perp well enough with an HQ elemental staff (I use WHM/SMN as I don't have SCH unlocked).


hope that helps put things a little more in perspective for those that don't understand...

Raist

edit: Oh, and pertaining to increased strength at 80: If you don't have a -5 perp. staff, and use Avatar's Favour to offset the perpetuation--you NERF THE AVATAR by 10% or more. So to reset your perpetuation wtihout a magian staff, you are negating most the gains in output gained from the increase in levels. NO OTHER JOB HAS GONE THROUGH SUCH A TRANSFORMATION WITH THIS UPDATE.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 6:10pm by BDHERTZER
#73 Aug 20 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
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BDHERTZER wrote:
edit: Oh, and pertaining to increased strength at 80: If you don't have a -5 perp. staff, and use Avatar's Favour to offset the perpetuation--you NERF THE AVATAR by 10% or more. So to reset your perpetuation wtihout a magian staff, you are negating most the gains in output gained from the increase in levels. NO OTHER JOB HAS GONE THROUGH SUCH A TRANSFORMATION WITH THIS UPDATE.


That's overreacting. The 'transformation' is a mere 2/3 perpetuation extra. Annoying, yes, but nothing game breaking.
The amount of MP gained over the 5 new levels offset the additional MP drain, so you're at worst back at the start.
And if you take into consideration that SMN gets access to Convert at 80 (and Refresh at 82 soon), MP becomes less of an issue in a lot more situation.

RDM on the other hand has seen niche roles destroyed, job defining spells and abilities relegated to other jobs, and overall effectiveness culled. If this keeps up, RDM will become one of those jobs you take along because the player didn't have anything better.
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#74 Aug 20 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
This is getting blown way out of proportion. It's like your treating this as an omen to come. Honestly this was likely just to have your gear prepped for the next updates and to tread in some waters. So you gained an extra -2mp but in the long run it will likely even out when they start readjusting traits and costs specifically for 99 instead of an 80 cap. THIS ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD, RELAX!

Dev 1: Maybe we should up the perp costs for this update so smn's can start getting their gear ready when we readjust them for the proper levels.
Dev 2: Sounds like a great idea!
Dev 1: Hopefully they don't mistake this as were gonna give them perp cost every level.
Dev 2: Ho, ho, ho, no one would ever be that blunt. (<- is really santa)
#75 Aug 20 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
The amount of MP gained over the 5 new levels offset the additional MP drain, so you're at worst back at the start.


If I had gained about 200 base mp during those 5 levels this might be a valid argument (avatar out long enough for buffs and 3 or 4 BP rages eats up more mp than we've gained by leveling).

And while /RDM is convenient when there is no threat of a death without reraise, that works. But sometimes you may still want to sub WHM or SCH for various reasons, so saying /RDM is a solution (even post 82) is still a SITUATIONAL fix. The "nerf" is something that applies 100%. And yes, I call it a nerf--it costs more and hinders your efficiency unless you find a way to offset the cost if you don't have better gear (ie use of favour, as stated earlier not having the gear may be forcing you to nerf your output).

RDM can still play as it always has. Just have more jobs that can do the same things. Maybe not as well as RDM, but can do them. Um... hello SCH vs BLM and WHM? Not a fair comparison. SMN is the only job that does what SMN does, and it has been outright penalized by leveling.

Blown out of proportion is it? only a 2/3 increase you say? This may be true, but bear in mind that that increase came at a rate of 3 or less levels, when over the course of the first 75 levels it was twice that gap. I mean, really... TWO bumps back to back for one class. It's an increased scaling (from 1-80 vs 1-75) of around 10% or higher than the previous rates of increase. If they saw fit to bump it twice in 5 levels, it's safe to assume there will likely be at least one more bump for every 5 levels to come. It's almost as if they INTENEDED SMN to do magian trials, and then made them a ridiculous grind on top of that. THAT is what is so insulting about it. It isn't so much that it's unmanagible if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it---it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.

Back to trying to solo sheep that spawn chigoes twice while trying to kill them with garuda...costing me over 600mp a piece to kill solo because no one wants to team up with me. Talk to me after you've done this for 450 mobs for Garuda and Shiva's staves....

Raist
#76 Aug 20 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Blown out of proportion is it? only a 2/3 increase you say? This may be true, but bear in mind that that increase came at a rate of 3 or less levels, when over the course of the first 75 levels it was twice that gap. I mean, really... TWO bumps back to back for one class. It's an increased scaling (from 1-80 vs 1-75) of around 10% or higher than the previous rates of increase. If they saw fit to bump it twice in 5 levels, it's safe to assume there will likely be at least one more bump for every 5 levels to come. It's almost as if they INTENEDED SMN to do magian trials, and then made them a ridiculous grind on top of that. THAT is what is so insulting about it. It isn't so much that it's unmanagible if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it---it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.

Quote:

it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.


Quote:
when no other job suffers such a dilema.


Nope. no other jobs have to start magian trials to keep up or stay ahead. (/sarcasm)

Once again they will likely readjust as time goes on. You're worrying over nothing since 5 levels doesn't mean much in the long run. Until some proof shows that at 99 your going to have a ridiculous perp cost I'd consider the current costs just treading in shallow water to get a feel for eventual perp.
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