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SMN Perpetuation And MagianFollow

#27 Jul 07 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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good grief...and I and the OP the only ones that have noticed how the broke their perpetuation growth pattern? THAT is what the issue is, not the fact they increases it, but the fact that they DOUBLED UP on the increases compared to the normal progression:

No, you're not the only ones that noticed. I've already said that the increases on perp were a little crazy. I'm saying three things:

1) This has nothing to do with magian trials; keep your arguments straight
This has everything to do with Magian. It is no coincidence that in the last 4-5 months, we have seen an increase of exactly 2 to the perpetuation of all smn pets and an exactly 2 increase to the perp gear that is "reasonably obtainable" (aka not Nirvana). It is a blatant play at keeping players by giving them busy work, and sh*tty busy work at that. I prefer not having accomplishments ripped out from under me, nor having to pay a upkeep to just keep my head above water. I want to play this game when it's convenient and not backpeddle for it.

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2) You should have expected *some* increase in perp with a level cap raise
Ok...? Doesn't change the fact that it's still retarded, so we'll mention it again here, as feedback, in the feedback and suggestions forum, with the suggestion "don't have it so leveling a summoner makes it worse than before it leveled, and offsetting it with new gear does not make it ok" in the feedback and suggestions forum.

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3) If you're not willing to put in the work for magian trials, you don't deserve the better gear. Some of this stuff is a lot easier to obtain than previous improvements on gear, such as Nirvana. Either deal with it, live with what you've got, or just stay at 75.
That's just it. My argument is it's not better gear. When I get the new Magian stuff and level 80, I'll be almost right back where I was before the update at level 75. My pets will cost the same amount, they'll be just as sh*tty or sh*ttier compared to other jobs, and I'll lose inventory on it.

Also, your continued implications that Nirvana is reasonably obtainable is laughable and outrageous.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 8:54pm by GerrardCapashen
#28 Jul 07 2010 at 6:58 PM Rating: Default
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It is no coincidence that in the last 4-5 months, we have seen an increase of exactly 2 to the perpetuation of all smn pets and an exactly 2 increase to the perp gear that is "reasonably obtainable" (aka not Nirvana).


Yeah, how unusual that would be for a level cap raise to introduce both higher perp costs and new perp gear. Definitely a conspiracy. Sounds a lot like, idk... pretty much all your previous levels? Again, how could you have not seen this coming?

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That's just it. My argument is it's not better gear. When I get the new Magian stuff and level 80, I'll be almost right back where I was before the update at level 75. My pets will cost the same amount, they'll be just as sh*tty or sh*ttier compared to other jobs, and I'll lose inventory on it.


Sounds like better gear to me, otherwise you wouldn't be whining about not being willing to put forth the work toward having it.

Again, if you don't like the idea of higher perp, don't level past 75. Seeing you blabber about your ****************** pets again makes me wonder why you even bothered leveling the job in the first place.
#29 Jul 07 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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it should also be noted that the final Magian -perp. staves are in some ways worse than the previously used HQ Elemental staves. All the elemental staves boost stats, accuracy/potency of spells of the same element, and also elemental resistances.

Also, Yama's is a level 80 item. What about when you have to level synch? Is the perpetuation going to scale down? I doubt it (I've put xp on hold trying to get the dark staff done before I ding 80 SMN). So...we may still have to have our elementals handy for situational use, even if we complete the mind-numbing task of getting a Yama for each avatar. There goes a big chunk of our inventory space....

Personally...I'm likely only going to do the dark staff since I use Fenrir so much....will just have to wait and see what happens with future level caps I guess.

Raist

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 9:10pm by BDHERTZER
#30 Jul 07 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
47 posts
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It is no coincidence that in the last 4-5 months, we have seen an increase of exactly 2 to the perpetuation of all smn pets and an exactly 2 increase to the perp gear that is "reasonably obtainable" (aka not Nirvana).


Yeah, how unusual that would be for a level cap raise to introduce both higher perp costs and new perp gear. Definitely a conspiracy.
If by conspiracy, you mean a blatant an obvious ploy to keep players busy with sh*tty new content to merely retain their current power, then yes.

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Sounds a lot like, idk... pretty much all your previous levels? Again, how could you have not seen this coming?
Non Sequitur and incorrect. Your point is again irrelevant to my feedback and suggestions (which I might again remind you that this is the feedback and suggestions forum), which are, to repeat:

It's highly aggravating to have a certain power, to be able to kill certain monsters, and have a patch take that power away. I'm sure the dev team thinks this increase in perpetuation is OK because of the new gear. Arguably summoner has always been like this, and it's still as aggravating then as it is now, that is highly aggravating.

Not leveling is a no-option, a pitiful rebuke which deserves no further mention.

I also want to draw your attention to that this is a characteristic which is specific to summoner. No other job, when it levels, loses the ability to solo monsters which it could have soloed previously, or perform normal game activities which it could have done previously. When my dragoon levels, my armor is just as good, and my ability to do all of which I was previously capable have not be negatively impacted in any way.

Moreover, the dev team further aggravated this by changing past patterns of perpetuation costs, increasing it abnormally.

So, to answer you hypothetical and troll question "Again, how could you have not seen this coming?", I could not have seen the double perp cost increase coming because it broke all past patterns.

Again, that this is aggravating and unwanted goes without mention. However, to be clear, this just further exacerbates an unwanted game mechanic which is specific to summoner, which gives a negative interest to leveling, which makes summoner quite distinct amongst the FFXI jobs, which they further aggravate by increasing the penalty even moreso than past patterns. I assume again the dev team feels entitled to do this because they added new gear to offset this cost. I feel this is not for the aforementioned reasons.

Finally, the worst part about all of this in my humble opinion is that this new content, Magian, is much worse than alternative content I could be using, such as Einherjar, Walk Of Echos, Abyssea (sp), and basically all other content in the game.

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That's just it. My argument is it's not better gear. When I get the new Magian stuff and level 80, I'll be almost right back where I was before the update at level 75. My pets will cost the same amount, they'll be just as sh*tty or sh*ttier compared to other jobs, and I'll lose inventory on it.

Sounds like better gear to me, otherwise you wouldn't be whining about not being willing to put forth the work toward having it.

Again, if you don't like the idea of higher perp, don't level past 75.
And again, saying that the intended course of action is to not level to 80 is absurd.
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Seeing you blabber about your "sh*tty" pets again makes me wonder why you even bothered leveling the job in the first place.
And again, what forum are you posting in? Repeat with me: "feedback and suggestions". Take a moment to ponder its meaning.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 9:28pm by GerrardCapashen
#31 Jul 07 2010 at 7:34 PM Rating: Good
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Personally I am kind of fond of the Magian system, and I don't have many complaints about it; it is rather tedious, but if its a choice between doing something tedious or never getting good gear because I am not in a large successful EG shell I pick doing something tedious.
Meant as a completely non-offensive observation: WoW might be the game for you. Presumably, you'll never be hardcore, so the hardcore people will always have better gear than you, but with each new patch releasing better gear dropped off random mobs which is better than old top tier gear, the difference between you and hardcore players may be less pronounced.

I like how FFXI has always been about the group mechanic. They're going away from their roots now, which I could stand perhaps, but the solo content of Magian is still atrocious beyond all measure. Solo does not imply "must kill 1000s of Easy Prey mobs under arbitrary and capricious conditions". They could have implemented actual fun content, like the level 20 avatar fights, or the content for Evoker's Ring.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 9:38pm by GerrardCapashen
#32 Jul 07 2010 at 7:44 PM Rating: Default
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If by conspiracy, you mean a blatant an obvious ploy to keep players busy with sh*tty new content to merely retain their current power, then yes.


Again, if you don't like what you've gotten, don't level past 75.

You've KNOWN for a while now that SMN is a job that potentially punishes you for leveling it. There is no excuse for ignorance now.

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It's highly aggravating to have a certain power, to be able to kill certain monsters, and have a patch take that power away.


Except nothing was taken away. You gave it away by leveling further when you should have expected higher perp costs.

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Not leveling is a no-option, a pitiful rebuke which deserves no further mention.


Then deal with having to work harder to maintain your perp, regardless of whatever method it is in (endgame gear, rare/ex drops, trials, etc.) This is not going to change. Either you will need to change your attitude, or change your job.

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And again, what forum are you posting in? Repeat with me: "feedback and suggestions". Take a moment to ponder its meaning.


Yeah I know. I'm giving you some feedback and suggesting that part of your feedback sucks. (Namely, the whole "get rid of magian trials" bit.)

I don't like Salvage and the work it entails to get something I want. You don't see me clamoring to get it removed from the game for that reason.
#33 Jul 07 2010 at 8:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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If by conspiracy, you mean a blatant an obvious ploy to keep players busy with sh*tty new content to merely retain their current power, then yes.

Again, if you don't like what you've gotten, don't level past 75.

You've KNOWN for a while now that SMN is a job that potentially punishes you for leveling it. There is no excuse for ignorance now.
Still ignoring that they "ninja-ed" it to be higher than past patterns.

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Not leveling is a no-option, a pitiful rebuke which deserves no further mention.

Then deal with having to work harder to maintain your perp, regardless of whatever method it is in (endgame gear, rare/ex drops, trials, etc.) This is not going to change. Either you will need to change your attitude, or change your job.
So hostile. Where's the love?

Also, I would think that the entire point of this forum is so things might perhaps change.

I would remind you that this "constantly increasing perpetuation" has largely been a think of the past, more than 7 years ago. The cap has been constant, and consequently the the perp cost has been constant for over 7 years. This punishment you speak of which summoners endure didn't really exist for nearly all of the American release, and nearly the entire history of the game itself. Leveling to 75 is by no means a trivial feat, but it took me less than 4 months to get summoner from 1 to 75, and I played on 75 summoner for many years. For the majority of my playtime on summoner, I did not experience this "ever increasing perpetuation". Thus I also refute your argument on this ground.

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And again, what forum are you posting in? Repeat with me: "feedback and suggestions". Take a moment to ponder its meaning.

Yeah I know. I'm giving you some feedback and suggesting that part of your feedback sucks. (Namely, the whole "get rid of magian trials" bit.)

I don't like Salvage and the work it entails to get something I want. You don't see me clamoring to get it removed from the game for that reason.
Perhaps, if you phrased the criticism in that light earlier, you might be less of a jackass, and you might actually get your point across and thus be efficacious. The alternative, of course, is to continue being a jackass and trolling.

I also don't think you've thought this through carefully. Are you suggesting that all content should be easily obtained? Are you suggesting there shouldn't be content with varying degrees of difficulty and work required? For example, I personally entertain no notion that I will ever get a relic or mythic. This does not lower my enjoyment of the game. However, to reduce all difficulty to the lowest common denominator would destroy the economy and destroy this game.

As I mentioned else-thread, this is also mostly irrelevant to my critique of Magian. My main problem with Magian is not its difficulty per se. I'm not suggesting it should require all the effort and work of Salvage. I'm merely suggesting that the content be at least slightly interesting, such as again the level 20 avatar fights, the evoker's ring content, the artifact armor quests, or any other piece of content in the game, solo or group.

Also, please don't cite Nirvana again. That misses the point that Nirvana is only for the elite of the elite, it is not standard content, and it is not really factored into balancing by the dev team. Whereas Magian is considered standard content, it is expected that most people will do it, and it is factored into the balancing by the dev team. If it's obscure content, it matters less if it's sh*tty. If it's quote unquote required content, and if it's sh*tty, like Magian, then it matters a whole lot more. In that regard, while the content to get a relic is worse than the content to get a Magian weapon, the Magian weapon is much more standard content, much more expected to be done, and much less obscure, and thus Magian is an overall worse design choice for this game. Elite players should be given content which is very repetitive, as there is nothing else which will hold there interest for the same dev team investment. However, the common player base, to which Magian is targeted, and which is a larger portion of the player base, should be given more dev team investment for better content, not this autogenerated garbage.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 10:30pm by GerrardCapashen
#34 Jul 07 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
I still think you're missing some of the nuance of my feedback, that there is a problem specific to summoner, and the dev team decided to aggravate the problem moreso by increasing the perp cost more than past patterns. The analog would be for warrior to get -4 attack each level, and a new Magian weapon which gave +20 attack more than any other option. I think that is a fair comparison. Moreover, to complete the comparison, for a new update, the dev team decides to make the attack penalty -8 per level, but they give war a new Magian weapon to exactly make up for it, but every other job retained their power through the update, and the new gear actually increased their power instead of keeping it steady.

Thus far, your repeated reply can be summed up as "suck it up *****", but the very nature of this forum allows the opportunity for change. When confronted with the nature of this forum, you replied with a diversion, a straw man argument, that my complaining about the perp cost problem is somehow analogous to saying we should remove hard content we don't like, which is entirely unrelated to the summoner specific problem perp problem which brought forth your repeated "suck it up *****" replies. I'm not sure if this is purposeful trolling, or just the result of a short attention span. Either way, my patience is wearing thin, and I'm sure my target audience will either get it by now or not.

Perhaps it's my fault for muddying the waters by bringing up several topics in one thread, but it is quite hard to untangle them, so I still think I made the right decision. Perhaps Fynlar, if you can take your head out of your ***, you might see this.

Edited, Jul 7th 2010 10:39pm by GerrardCapashen
#35 Jul 07 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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I think a better analogy would be to use BLM or RDM, seeing as his profile shows he hasn't leveled SMN to a point where perpetuation really kicks in, but he has leveled BLM and RDM.

The average perpetuation pattern has accelerated by almost 5% to 9% faster across 80 levels vs. the previous pattern had at the 75 cap:

Carby: >72, once every 8.00 levels
@80, once every 7.27 levels 9.1% increase

Fenrir: >73, once every 6.64 levels
@80, once every 6.15 levels 7.4% increase

Diabolos/ >74, once every 5.69 levels
Others @80, once every 5.33 levels 6.3% increase

Elementals: >72, once every 4.00 levels
@80, once every 3.81 levels 4.75% increase


Now, lets make this a BLM and RDM issue. You've played for years with all your spells costing the same amount. Now all of a sudden, you break a level cap and level up. You picked up two new spells, but they cost a lot to use. But I get new Magic Burst Bonus, and more INT/MND to work with so my old spells are more powerful/accurate now under the right conditions. But wait...wtf? all my previous spells are suddenly costing me more to use them??!! Oh, cool... there's magian trial weapons that will offset it. But...I have to do one weapon for each element to cover all my spells. Oh well... time to grind the hunt lists.

....

....


All these mobs aren't mobs everyone normally XP's on at their levels. Gotta form parties specifically to hunt these lists, or grind it solo.


Whew.... weeks later, I have a full set of staves to offset the new MP costs...but...they only work at 80+ and I can't use them in level synch. Good thing I still have my HQ elemental staves....oh crap....just realized I don't get the MACC/MAB and resistance bumps from the Yama Staves that I got from my elemental staves....

<Forum post>
What's up SE? Why are you making us jump through so many hoops just to maintain the same efficiency on our jobs? Couldn't you have just given us one weapon to offset the new MP Cost across the board? You gave us one with the Fey Weapons, but this new tweak is stronger than that weapon offsets. Why not give us another tier of the same type of weapon with Magian?

<reply on forums>
If you don't like it, don't level the job.



That's it. No more feeding the trolls on this issue...

Raist
#36 Jul 07 2010 at 9:49 PM Rating: Default
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Still ignoring that they "ninja-ed" it to be higher than past patterns.


/sigh
Again, I'm not ignoring that. If anything, you keep ignoring the fact that I'm recognizing it...

What I am saying is that it has nothing to do with magian trials. If you think the system is ******, that's your business, but what you're basically saying is "WAAAAHHHHHH ITS NOT FAIR THAT I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DONT LIKE TO STAY COMPETITIVE" and what I'm basically saying is, yeah, well, that's how progression works, son.

Having to do extra work to maintain the same perp cost you had at 75 is par for the course and should have been expected. I had a harder time soloing on 27 SMN than I did at 25-26 because I no longer had a free Carby at that point. Even though I think that's a flawed way for the job to work, the fact is that's how it works. Them's the breaks. Same bloody deal. If you aren't used to that kind of thing by 75, I have to wonder if you were actually paying any attention at all to the job you were leveling.


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Also, please don't cite Nirvana again.


Please don't cite magian trials again, then. It has nothing to do with your argument against the perp system.

By your own admission, this is just a case of you not wanting to put the work in, not unlike me not wanting to put the work in for a Morrigan's Coat, or anyone else not wanting to put the work in for a Nirvana. This doesn't warrant a removal of content from the game just because you don't like it or don't have the balls to get it done, regardless of how difficult or tedious it is.


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I also don't think you've thought this through carefully. Are you suggesting that all content should be easily obtained? Are you suggesting there shouldn't be content with varying degrees of difficulty and work required?


I'm suggesting to you to keep your arguments straight. I've said this already.


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I still think you're missing some of the nuance of my feedback, that there is a problem specific to summoner, and the dev team decided to aggravate the problem moreso by increasing the perp cost more than past patterns. The analog would be for warrior to get -4 attack each level, and a new Magian weapon which gave +20 attack more than any other option.


/sigh
Again, this is not a problem specific to magian trials; it is specific to SMN. SMN has been getting increased perp costs since level 1. You could say the same damned thing about ANY new method of -perp gear regardless of what it comes from or how hard it is to get. It is meaningless to the argument.


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that my complaining about the perp cost problem is somehow analogous to saying we should remove hard content we don't like


I'm not making any "analogy" with that; I'm referencing it because that's exactly what you said. "Abandon Magian in its entirety."


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<Forum post>
What's up SE? Why are you making us jump through so many hoops just to maintain the same efficiency on our jobs? Couldn't you have just given us one weapon to offset the new MP Cost across the board? You gave us one with the Fey Weapons, but this new tweak is stronger than that weapon offsets. Why not give us another tier of the same type of weapon with Magian?

<reply on forums>
If you don't like it, don't level the job.


Again, I'm already holding off on leveling my BRD because I don't like what it has received in this update (and BRD isn't even a job that necessarily got nerfed by reaching a higher level). I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone who feels like they "need" to get to 80 in some way, because I've never really been fond of anyone who doesn't understand what the term "need" means.

If you truly don't get anything useful out of being higher level SMN (which is apparently the argument being made here, since the OP is talking about having to expend more effort to remain more or less "the same" at 80 as he was at 75), then why exactly is "not leveling to 80" not an option?
#37 Jul 07 2010 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
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Still ignoring that they "ninja-ed" it to be higher than past patterns.

/sigh
Again, I'm not ignoring that. If anything, you keep ignoring the fact that I'm recognizing it...
What I am saying is that it has nothing to do with magian trials.
Let's try to find some common ground. Please stop as soon as you disagree. You do agree that they ninja-ed the perp cost to be higher than expected, right? You do agree that the dev team specifically planned both of these changes in conjunction, one relying on the other, right? Specifically, you do agree that a balancing decision was reached by the dev team which jacked the perp cost up abnormally, but offset it by the new Magian staffs, in order to result in more busy work by the summoners to be powerful, but to end in a state where they were not more powerful than where they started? (Not trying to be pejorative here about busy work. Just stating facts.) Thus, you do agree that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied to the ninja-ed perp cost increase, right?

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If you think the system is sh*tty, that's your business, but what you're basically saying is "WAAAAHHHHHH ITS NOT FAIR THAT I HAVE TO DO SOMETHING I DONT LIKE TO STAY COMPETITIVE" and what I'm basically saying is, yeah, well, that's how progression works, son.
While partially true, I think this is a mischaracterization. I am all for new content, and yes you have to do that new content to stay competitive. There is another, mostly orthogonal, point which I'm trying to make, and that is that purposefully making the class even worse when leveled, but making up for it in new content, is
1- specific to summoner,
2- worse than past patterns, aka has some origin to this update,
3- and is fundamentally different than doing new content to stay competitive with others doing new content.

Instead, it's doing new content on 80 summoner to be competitive vs someone who did no new content on 75 summoner. I still think you're just being contrary when you claim that it's a reasonable state of affairs when leveling makes your character worse. You can cite that it has been this way in the past, but that is immaterial to this point. Past conditions are irrelevant on the desirability of an outcome.

It's also unfair to summoner vs other jobs which do not need to do this busy work to stay competitive vs their level 75 counterparts. (At least most of them. I'm unaware of the brd stuff. I'll have to look into that when I'm not lazy.)

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By your own admission, this is just a case of you not wanting to put the work in, not unlike me not wanting to put the work in for a Morrigan's Coat, or anyone else not wanting to put the work in for a Nirvana. This doesn't warrant a removal of content from the game just because you don't like it or don't have the balls to get it done, regardless of how difficult or tedious it is.
No. The fundamental subtle point made continuously throughout my posts, starting in the OP, is that there is a difference between staying competitive with other players doing new content, and staying competitive vs past behavior. It is distinctly unsatisfying to be able to do something one day, then to have it taken away. (And yes, I still think you're just being contrary if you think it's reasonable that I should just not level. etc etc)

My point is that someone, if they take a break for a year, should not be better at old content than if they partook in new content. My 75 summoner will be better in some ways compared to my new summoner who merely partook in new content, aka to get to level 80. This is standard content. Content should not make you worse, especially something as intrinsic as leveling. That's just counter to so many intuitions and desires.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 1:15am by GerrardCapashen
#38 Jul 07 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent
47 posts
Allow me to repeat the relevant quotes for others' reading benefit, and your's, in chronological order:
Fynlar wrote:
Seeing you blabber about your "sh*tty" pets again makes me wonder why you even bothered leveling the job in the first place.
Here you argue that I'm a ***** about summoner, and that I should not be complaining about summoner.

Gerrard wrote:
And again, what forum are you posting in? Repeat with me: "feedback and suggestions". Take a moment to ponder its meaning.
I suggest that this is the place to complain and ***** about a summoner specific issue.

Fynlar wrote:
Yeah I know. I'm giving you some feedback and suggesting that part of your feedback sucks. (Namely, the whole "get rid of magian trials" bit.)

I don't like Salvage and the work it entails to get something I want. You don't see me clamoring to get it removed from the game for that reason.
Here you equate complaining about summoner balance with removing Magian or Salvage from the game. Let me remind you this is a direction continuation of the discussion, and you divert it completely to a straw man.

Gerrard wrote:
I also don't think you've thought this through carefully. Are you suggesting that all content should be easily obtained? Are you suggesting there shouldn't be content with varying degrees of difficulty and work required?
In this portion, I ignore that you made a straw man, ignore the original discussion, and argue your new point.

Fynlar wrote:
I'm suggesting to you to keep your arguments straight. I've said this already.
Here you drop the second argument and invent an insult at me. It is you who cannot keep his arguments straight, which is however immaterial to the broader points I'm trying to make. Allow me to reiterate:

1- Summoner perpetuation progression in its entirety is undesirable as a summoner player. (Past or current game mechanics are irrelevant to this statement.)

2- Ninja-ing the perp cost more than past progression is undesirable as a summoner player. It is a summoner specific nerf where none is required. It was specifically introduced in this new patch, and while sharing mechanics with older content, represents an entirely new nerf.

3- And no, adding new Magian weapons does not make up for point 2. Other jobs don't need to get their new Magian weapons to make up for a specific, intentional nerf.

4- Also, Magian content is horribly retarded, the worst content in the game, least fun by far, and should not be expanded at all.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 1:01am by GerrardCapashen
#39 Jul 07 2010 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
Here, you conveniently snip the relevant portion of my argument.
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I still think you're missing some of the nuance of my feedback, that there is a problem specific to summoner, and the dev team decided to aggravate the problem moreso by increasing the perp cost more than past patterns. The analog would be for warrior to get -4 attack each level, and a new Magian weapon which gave +20 attack more than any other option.
/sigh
Again, this is not a problem specific to magian trials; it is specific to SMN. SMN has been getting increased perp costs since level 1. You could say the same damned thing about ANY new method of -perp gear regardless of what it comes from or how hard it is to get. It is meaningless to the argument.
You snipped the context of the quote, doing me a disservice. Allow me to reproduce the rest of the snipped paragraph.
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Moreover, to complete the comparison, for a new update, the dev team decides to make the attack penalty -8 per level, but they give war a new Magian weapon to exactly make up for it, but every other job retained their power through the update, and the new gear actually increased their power instead of keeping it steady.
Specifically, "to complete the comparison", as in the snipped portion is incomplete. Let me repeat argument which I made else-thread, else you misquote me.

The argument goes that the dev team surely considered the ninja-ed increase to perpetuation at the same time and in conjunction with the new Magian perp staffs. They felt it was reasonable to apply this summoner specific, patch specific, new nerf, because there was a remedy to this nerf in the form of the new Magian perp staffs. That is the connection between perpetuation and Magian.

Note that this is the feedback and suggestions forum, so it makes sense to frame the feedback and suggestions in light of this obvious and intentional game balancing decision, the decision "the additional perpetuation which breaks past patterns is ok because of the new Magian perp staffs", with which I disagree.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 1:17am by GerrardCapashen
#40 Jul 07 2010 at 10:51 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
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<Forum post>
What's up SE? Why are you making us jump through so many hoops just to maintain the same efficiency on our jobs? Couldn't you have just given us one weapon to offset the new MP Cost across the board? You gave us one with the Fey Weapons, but this new tweak is stronger than that weapon offsets. Why not give us another tier of the same type of weapon with Magian?
<reply on forums>

If you don't like it, don't level the job.

Again, I'm already holding off on leveling my BRD because I don't like what it has received in this update (and BRD isn't even a job that necessarily got nerfed by reaching a higher level). I have a hard time feeling sorry for anyone who feels like they "need" to get to 80 in some way, because I've never really been fond of anyone who doesn't understand what the term "need" means.

If you truly don't get anything useful out of being higher level SMN (which is apparently the argument being made here, since the OP is talking about having to expend more effort to remain more or less "the same" at 80 as he was at 75), then why exactly is "not leveling to 80" not an option?
Interesting. I'm having a hard time deciding if you are trolling or not. 10/10 sir.

It is one of my "feedback and suggestions" that leveling should always make your character better in every facet, or at least not worse. This is in direct contradiction to the summoner perpetuation system. This point of desirability is independent of past game mechanics. This is the forum to make such a claim. I do not need it as this is just a game, but I believe that it would result in a more desirable outcome, a more fun game, so I am politely (sort of >.>) requesting it here which is the appropriate venue.

I never thought this would be a contentious point that leveling should never make your character worse in any facet; it should only make it the same or better. Apparently this is a contentious point, or at least a non-obvious one. My mistake and apologies for the assumption.

PS: Let me characterize your style of argument, and its flaws, so that you may be more productive in the future. This is simply meant as a benefit to you. First, you have to keep your arguments straight, and you can't let personal pet peeves cloud the issue. You attacked my summoner perpetuation feedback because you associated that argument with my other, mostly unrelated, argument that the Magian content sucks because you felt this was a personal danger to your interests as you dislike the alternatives to Magian, ex: Salvage. (Note that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied with the perp cost ninja nerf, but the overall content to get these new staffs is not and is relatively independent.) You need to do better to avoid ad hominem attacks, to avoid focusing on the person and instead attack the actual content. Don't see me as an opponent, but instead try to understand where I'm coming from, see my points and the reasons behind my points, and don't let emotion and pet peeves cloud your decision making capabilities. tl;dr attack issues, not people, at least if you want constructive useful outcomes. However, if you want to win public opinion, please feel free to continue with your current argument style ala the many politicians across the world.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 1:11am by GerrardCapashen
#41 Jul 08 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you truly don't get anything useful out of being higher level SMN (which is apparently the argument being made here, since the OP is talking about having to expend more effort to remain more or less "the same" at 80 as he was at 75), then why exactly is "not leveling to 80" not an option?


The ironic part is that perpetuation and new useful things are completely unrelated.

When we get new BPs, we get new MP costs to balance them out.

When we get new perpetuation, the only thing we get to balance that out is a few HP, higher level for damage calculations, and some minor increase in damage taken. I.e. the perpetuation cost is for what any melee get for free.

Perpetuation exists to prevent you from insane solo. But it prevents you from any kind of partying too. Just like if you made PLD take high damage from mobs to prevent them from soloing, and then they become useless at party tanking. Perpetuation should have always been canceled out by party members.

Solo = normal perpetuation
duo = -1 perpetuation
full party = -5 perpetuation

That would have put a well geared SMN at 0 perpetuation in parties, and the job would never have had any issues at all. A solution that should have been done 2004, but since SE can't admit their mistakes, we are stuck with them repeatedly doing the same mistakes over and over.
#42 Jul 08 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Perpetuation exists to prevent you from insane solo. But it prevents you from any kind of partying too. Just like if you made PLD take high damage from mobs to prevent them from soloing, and then they become useless at party tanking. Perpetuation should have always been canceled out by party members.
Perhaps they think this, but I do not know. My summoner gear is pretty good for the record. Capped BP recast on all BPs. 330 smn magic skill at 75. All the perp pieces in the game except for Nirvana and Magian before this new update. I think I was pretty close to the best I could be. However, the best I was able to solo before ring was like 6k/hr, maybe 7k/hr, on Heraldic Imps.

My dragoon at 75 is far less geared, relatively speaking. There is a lot of gear which could make my dragoon better (though again it is pretty well geared). I solo 10k experience points / hr before ring on dragoon. I get chain 4 solo consistently on Greater Colibri without downtime.

What I'm trying to say is that such sentiment is retarded. I don't think even completely free pets would enable my summoner to beat my dragoon solo, and that's when my summoner is better geared, relatively speaking, than my dragoon.

Now, if we're discussing soloing hard NMs and not soloing experience, then it really doesn't matter. I have Carby, Garuda, and Fenrir, and I can gain mp over time with all of them out with Favor, Sublimination, and Siphon. No perpetuation cost wouldn't really let me solo harder mobs, though it would let me solo them quicker. A lot of other jobs can already do what summoner does in terms of soloing monsters, and they can do it quicker and better ex: rdm/nin, blm, cor, dnc, thf, etc.

So yeah, I just wish the dev team actually played this game, so they could realize that summoner is not broken for solo, and probably wouldn't be broken for solo with much less perp, and possibly no perp, both in terms of solo experience points per hour, and in terms of soloing IT and harder mobs.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 4:28pm by GerrardCapashen
#43 Jul 08 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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tbh...I never understood why summoning was bound to a mp perpetuation cost in the first place. The avatars and elementals are standalone entities. You don't cast a spell and create them out of thin air. You maybe cast a spell to summon them, but that's about it. Making them consume mp while out is kind of like having a BST pet or DRG wyvern consume the caller's hp over time. If anything, that's really what an Avatar should be bound to--HP. It is after all considered a BLOOD PACT. In summoning jutsu, the conjurer sacrifices their blood to call forth a demon--should follow the same theme for summoners.

...but that's SE for you....

Raist
#44 Jul 08 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
SE can't admit their mistakes, we are stuck with them repeatedly doing the same mistakes over and over.
More than that, they latched onto perp and thought it was a good idea to make it even worse in this update, in an attempt to push Magian, which is also incredibly stupid content. Stupid SE.
#45 Jul 08 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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tbh...I never understood why summoning was bound to a mp perpetuation cost in the first place. The avatars and elementals are standalone entities. You don't cast a spell and create them out of thin air. You maybe cast a spell to summon them, but that's about it. Making them consume mp while out is kind of like having a BST pet or DRG wyvern consume the caller's hp over time. If anything, that's really what an Avatar should be bound to--HP. It is after all considered a BLOOD PACT. In summoning jutsu, the conjurer sacrifices their blood to call forth a demon--should follow the same theme for summoners.
This just gave me another way of thinking about it. Let's take bst or drg or pup. The cost to "summon" their pet is constant from the moment they get the ability. For bst, drg, and pup, it's simply a recast timer on a job ability. In addition, their pet scales with level. Summoner pets do not have a set cost; the cost varies with level. Unlike bst, drg, and pup pets, the summoner cost more the higher level your summoner is.

I wonder what it would be like if the perp cost was constant from level 1, you know, so leveling actually made your job better ala bst, drg, and pup. That's probably how it should have been done.

Heh, the more I think about it, the more I realize that summoner has all the bizarro balancing. It has ever increasing perp cost, BP delays, skill over cap, etc. The entire class is just fundamentally broken and needed a rewrite as soon as it was released, but good ole SE didn't do it then, and it's much harder to do it now.

Here's some provocative ideas:

1- Perp cost is constant across levels. Carby mitts makes carby free. Nirvana makes the rest of them free. (I like my sacred cows.) Summoner gains the ability to actually have some customization with gear instead of worrying about mp bleed. As it currently stands, lets see, with my gear I devote weapon, head, body, hands, 1 ring, and feet all to just prevent this mp bleed, aka just treading water. That's a lot of gear slots lost just to be functional. Anyone can see that this pattern cannot continue much longer without just new tier sets of gear ala Magian which I think would be a horrible idea, which I've mentioned else-thread.

2- Just get rid of BP timer entirely in its current form. I've been partial to a pup-style system where you can spam BPs, but if you use BPs too quickly, a penalty might / will occur, such as each subsequent BP costs more mp until you are "cooled down". The current BP gear could be retrofitted to decrease this "cooldown" time.

3- Summoner skill over the cap is beyond retarded. Make it like the rest of the skills, like Polearm skill, so it's the absolute number which matters. I doubt there's any actual summoners nowadays who don't have near-capped skill anyway.

4- Fix the BP Wards and Favors to be cost competitive with other buffing jobs. As is nearly all of them are a joke, especially moreso nowadays when other jobs can do AOE stoneskin and AOE blink. That used to be special. Now our 250 (?) point stoneskinga is a joke. For the sh*tty wards, some combination of last longer, more "powerful" (ex: more damage absorbed by stoneskin, higher attack bonus of Crimson Howl), and cheaper (though I will remind you that the mp cost is generally not the biggest cost to BPs. It's the time cost to summon, to use the BP, to position the pet, and the BP recast timer.) Same for Favors.

5- Make spirits less stupid. Some combination of better AI, better magic acc and magic att, less time between castings, and cheaper.

6- Make some combination of summoner's mnd, summoner's int, summoner's cha affect the various attributes of the pet. (I'd go with cha, but that's because I'm a DND guy.) We're the only job where all of our base stats are near meaningless, though int has become important with /sch.

PS: Thank you for Odin. That was a really nice move to allow summoner to dump all their MP for one big massive shot, aka useful for zergs. I don't think any summoner was really asking for that, but it's quite useful nonetheless.

Edited, Jul 8th 2010 6:16pm by GerrardCapashen
#46 Jul 09 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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BDHERTZER wrote:
tbh...I never understood why summoning was bound to a mp perpetuation cost in the first place. The avatars and elementals are standalone entities. You don't cast a spell and create them out of thin air. You maybe cast a spell to summon them, but that's about it. Making them consume mp while out is kind of like having a BST pet or DRG wyvern consume the caller's hp over time. If anything, that's really what an Avatar should be bound to--HP. It is after all considered a BLOOD PACT. In summoning jutsu, the conjurer sacrifices their blood to call forth a demon--should follow the same theme for summoners.

...but that's SE for you....

Raist


Avatars and elementals are astral beings. As such, they need a source of magic to maintain their presence. A SMN is the conduit in this case. The better the conduit, the more power that can be channeled through it, but the more it costs to maintain it.
Without a SMN, astral beings can only manifest when a rise in natural energy (weather) allows it.

Get rid of perpetuation entirely, and you end up with a bunch of weak magical jugpets rather then tough charmed mobs.

I don't know why SE decided to put perpetuation tiers into overdrive, but I'm guessing a perpetuation-related JA is in the works.
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#47 Jul 09 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know why SE decided to put perpetuation tiers into overdrive, but I'm guessing a perpetuation-related JA is in the works.
Oh how I wish.

As noted else-thread, the solution that SE has had for perp has always been in the past better gear. The problem with this is that a lot of summoner gear is now simply devoted to perp, and they're running out of slots to devote to perp. The end result is that they're starting to have much more blatant tier set releases. (This I strongly dislike. The updates should be gradual, not overpowered tier sets each release.) This update is no different. It is no coincidence that the staffs available to most summoners went from 3 to 5 in the last couple of months and the perp cost went 2 higher in the last couple of months.
#48 Jul 09 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Actually, the summons are stand-alone deities that exist in alternate realms that can appear in the prime material plain at will--all the summoner does is call them forth with magic. Now, you could make the case that it requires great concentration to control them as we do, which would explain the mp cost to issue the commands--but I don't see why it should continue to cost mp when you aren't commanding them. Unless one wants to make the case that we still control them even though we aren't telling them to do anything. At any rate, as your expertise and bond with the deity grows (IE, leveling and skilling up your Summoning Magic Skill), it should cost LESS to maintain that control not MORE--or at the very least it swings from increasing when you first level and then reduces back to a flat level once you recap for that level.

Raist
#49 Jul 09 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Avatars and elementals are astral beings. As such, they need a source of magic to maintain their presence. A SMN is the conduit in this case. The better the conduit, the more power that can be channeled through it, but the more it costs to maintain it. Without a SMN, astral beings can only manifest when a rise in natural energy (weather) allows it.


This is correct.

Quote:
I don't know why SE decided to put perpetuation tiers into overdrive, but I'm guessing a perpetuation-related JA is in the works.


They gave us one of those, it made me sad all day. Hopefully you are right, and there is a good perp- ability on the way, but I won't hold my breath.
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#50 Jul 09 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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that holds true for elemental summons, but the Avatars themselves are actual deities based in mythology, more or less gods:

Shiva, Garuda: Hindu Deities

Ifrit: Arabian Deity (Djinn, sort of a subclass of Angelic nature)

Titan: lesser Greek Deities

Fenrir: Norse Deity (spawn of Loki)

Leviathin: Deity present in both Judeo and Sumerian mythology

Carbuncle: mythical creature tied to mayan/latin mythologies

and of course there is Diabolos, which has ties to several mythologies.

They technically don't require any magic intervention to exist in the prime material plane. Some of these deities have tales of wedding humans and otherwise birthing demi-gods of their own free will, as well as through trickery from other gods.

So technically, the only reason for there to be MP cost for them is the initial summoning and when controlling their actions, unless again you were to make the case for a mental strain to keep them under your influence between commands. Again, if that were the case, as your bond with that avatar increases and your mastery of the summon increases, that should not result in an increasing cost past a certain point--it should eventually plateau.

If one were to make the case that your perpetuation should be higher because they are more powerful as you level up, then the cost to initially summon them should also increase, as well as the cost of each of the commands you use--which they don't because you have already mastered those skills. Thus, by the same principle of mastery, there should be a point where your perpetuation should plateau and possibly even begin to decrease past that point.

It would make more sense for elementals to increse in perpetuation as well as initial summoning because you are actually creating the environment they need to exist (naturally occuring in certain weather conditions, or in magical realms such as the Realm of the Gods, ie Sky). As they become stronger (from leveling up), they would require more energy to produce a more powerful elemental entity. But technically, you aren't creating a Shivat when you summon it--there is only one Shiva. Granted, technically there are more than one Ifrit, Leviathin, Carbuncle, and Titan as they were actually a sort of "race", but the others are individual entities. As far as the FFXI storyline goes though, there are only one of each of these--if you notice in the past and in Abyssea, there are avatars of the same models with different names.

Raist
#51 Jul 09 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Excellent
Though the avatars are namesakes and references to real life deities, they are wholly separate from their real life counterparts. And with the exception of Garuda all are actually reincarnations of previous Final Fantasy summons, though again in XI they exist in a unique mythology different from their incarnations in previous games (e.g. Shiva in FFXI is not the Shiva in X or IX or VIII etc...) So ascribing to them the myths of their real life counterparts is inaccurate. Its quite common in SE games, as they love to make reference to mythological and historical things. Another example is the Joyeuse; Obviously there was no Charlemagne in Vana'diel history, and the sword in game is not like the Joyeuse which Charlemagne was said to use. It's just a reference to it.

In FFXI the avatars have a very interesting back story, which I have always thought deserved more attention in the main plots. The origins of the celestial avatars, excluding Alex and Odin, are explained in old Vana'diel Tribune articles called Legends of the Constellations. If you play through various quests and missions you also learn that the celestial avatars are actually slumbering in another plane. As for the Terrestrial avatars I believe they were animals who ascended to godhood to look over Vana'diel while the celestial avatars slumbered. I think, though it has been some time since I read up on it, that when they awaken the five terrestrial avatars and the races of Altana will die and it will be the end of Vana'diel as we know it.

Anywho, the avatars we call forth a small fractions of their true forms, and it is the power of the summoner that evokes them and keeps them within the material plane, thus we have perpetuation costs. Logical enough from a story standpoint, huge pain in the **** from a game balance stand point.
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