Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

SMN Perpetuation And MagianFollow

#52 Jul 10 2010 at 5:34 AM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
The interesting part is that the story never sets a number for perpetuation. 2 MP per tick at level 80 would have been just as reasonable from a story perspective. The actual size is just SE employees picking random numbers out of thin air and putting into the game.

Something that they should have observed all these years is carbuncle, which is heavily used as the pet that stays out. Not only has it 2 perpetuation less than competition, it halves that with an item. Meaning the ideal perpetuation decided on by the whole community is half of what we get.

Furthermore the basic idea, if it ever existed, should have been to restrict the time an avatar is around. Time is easily determined by MP/perpetuation*3. So these days at 80 you'd expect roughly 1000/15*3 = 200 seconds. Or ~3 min. If you are kind enough to include Favors and perhaps some -4 or so perpetuation, the calculation turns into 1000/9*3 = 333 or 6.5 min. Even a very well geared SMN would be looking at something like 1000/3*3 = 1000 seconds, or 16.5 minutes.

To reach that level though, you need all 8 staffs from magian trials which means kill 1175*8 mobs, or 9400 EP during day/weather.

It is hard to call it fair that a DRG only needs to avoid AOE damage to hit their wyvern for 16 minutes to keep it alive that long, but a SMN needs to kill 10 000 easy preys to match it... for level 80. Post 80 it will again become worse and require some 2500 more mobs extra per -perpetuation. Compared to Nirvana that needs 6500 kills, 10 000 kills is a bit extreme.

I don't know really. A PLD just have to walk out and make 1 or 2 -pdt swords, which can be leveled with dual wield at the same time. A SMN needs to make 8 staffs one at a time. I doubt even BLMs feel that they'll lose 13% damage if they do not level up 8 elemental nuke staffs.

No. Perpetuation needs to be fixed ASAP. Magian trial weapons also needs fixing, because it is unreasonable to force SMNs to get 8 magian weapons just to cancel out perpetuation increases. I have bahamut staff to cut down on inventory cloggage (I actually have 5 slots left, and couldn't even carry 8 new elemental staffs if I had them)

It is wrong. It is unfair. It is unreasonable. It is again Summoner that is the only one suffering. And it is completely expected, because SE has never shown a hint at caring for the class. As a casual programmer I could have solved all this in a week. Their expert programmers can't even do it in 10 years. If that isn't classed as not caring, I don't know what is.
#53 Jul 10 2010 at 6:33 AM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,118 posts
Quote:
Let's try to find some common ground. Please stop as soon as you disagree. You do agree that they ninja-ed the perp cost to be higher than expected, right? You do agree that the dev team specifically planned both of these changes in conjunction, one relying on the other, right? Specifically, you do agree that a balancing decision was reached by the dev team which jacked the perp cost up abnormally, but offset it by the new Magian staffs, in order to result in more busy work by the summoners to be powerful, but to end in a state where they were not more powerful than where they started? (Not trying to be pejorative here about busy work. Just stating facts.) Thus, you do agree that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied to the ninja-ed perp cost increase, right?


No, I don't.

Perp cost has always risen with level; there is no reason to have expected otherwise. Also, it is natural to expect better gear to come out with a cap raise as well. Because both of these turned out to be true, you're assuming that one was only done because of the other, and that one was carefully built around the other? Where are you getting that from? It does not follow.

You have no real evidence of a direct link between the two; you are just scapegoating because you happen to not like the method for acquiring these things.

Quote:
4- Also, Magian content is horribly retarded, the worst content in the game, least fun by far, and should not be expanded at all.


Read: I'm too lazy to work for my gear.

By the way, this is precisely what I meant by not pissing in everyone else's corn flakes just because you don't like yours (even though I'm sure you understood this and you're just trying to act dense on purpose). I happen to enjoy this content because unlike most of "endgame", it's something that I'm actually able to do.

Quote:
It is one of my "feedback and suggestions" that leveling should always make your character better in every facet, or at least not worse. This is in direct contradiction to the summoner perpetuation system.


I know that, I've already said that SMN is the only job that punishes you for leveling it.

If only you had made your post just about that, I would have actually been able to support this thread. Instead, you've managed to come across as a whiner who wants to ruin a facet of the game for everyone else because you don't happen to enjoy it.



Now to the other genius in here:

Quote:
It is hard to call it fair that a DRG only needs to avoid AOE damage to hit their wyvern for 16 minutes to keep it alive that long, but a SMN needs to kill 10 000 easy preys to match it... for level 80.


You wanna know what else isn't fair? When something kills a DRG's pet 5 minutes after summoning it, he gets to go 15 minutes pet-less. What happens when something kills a SMN's pet within 5 minutes -- hell, 5 *seconds* -- after he summons it? Oh, nothing much at all; you just summon another one for a piddly MP cost.

SMNs get to pay MP perp for their pets because they are the most expendable pets. Make any argument you want about how perp is excessive -- I'll probably agree with you -- but please don't try to defend it via comparisons with other pet jobs. The jobs do not work the same way.

Quote:
A SMN needs to make 8 staffs


No, they don't.

Quote:
I doubt even BLMs feel that they'll lose 13% damage if they do not level up 8 elemental nuke staffs.


You're right, they don't feel that way (and not only that; it *isn't* that way). That's because they know what elements they use the most and just make the staves that apply towards those elements. You know, working smarter... not harder.

Quote:
As a casual programmer I could have solved all this in a week.


Anyone who's actually seen the kind of things you've suggested for this game (EXP in CB for doing nothing says hi) would know that you shouldn't be anywhere within a 100 mile radius of its development and programming.
#54 Jul 10 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
A SMN needs to make 8 staffs


No, they don't.
You're right, there's no reason to get a Surya's with -5 Perp. :D

Still, the system is bogus. Oh, I like the concept of Magian, but the way they split the staff augments is insulting, and punishes SMN even more. You need 7 of them just to cover the perp increase, only 1-2 have a genuine impact on damage and that's only if you feel like satcheling one or the other because they'll have the same name. Oh, I suppose you could stop at a Teiwaz for another damage staff, but that's forcing a SMN to not level a staff just to use it.

BLMs and SCHs, on the other hand, can use all 6 elements to improve damage. RDM too, but I'd make the case of sticking with the original HQ set for better accuracy. Even still, if a SMN has BLM, SCH, or perhaps RDM, or has the intention of leveling them in the future, you have to decide between a perp set or a damage set, but certainly not both Silly me.

That's not to mention mages (excluding WHM-only players, lucky bastiges) need 6-9 staffs to cover most of their bases with a SMN needing 9-10, whereas melees only need 1-2 weapons to cover most their bases (always the potential to munchkin for more, I do know that). Oh, you could forgo the entire staff set, it's true, but while all the other mages don't get actively hurt by it, SMNs still lose perp.

The whole staff section is, forgive the language, a crock of sh*t and SMN is again the redheaded stepchild of it. Why I enjoy that silly job, I do not know.

The rest of Magian is kinda coo' though.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 11:44am by jlejeune

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 1:49pm by jlejeune
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#55 Jul 10 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
Jack of All Trades
******
29,118 posts
SMN is not the only job with issues with staff trials, here. If I truly went the whole way and min/maxed everything that I wanted to, I would need more staves than a career SMN does. Nobody is forcing me to be a crazy min/maxer, and there certainly isn't anything forcing SMN to be, either.

Quote:
BLMs and SCHs, on the other hand, can use all 6 elements to improve damage. RDM too, but I'd make the case of sticking with the original HQ set for better accuracy.


Or they can, y'know, make the accuracy staves instead.

Quote:
Even still, if a SMN has BLM, SCH, or perhaps RDM, or has the intention of leveling them in the future, you have to decide between a perp set or a damage set, but certainly not both.


You don't have to decide that. If you're not playing SMN, put your perp staves away in your safe or something. If you are, put the other staves away.
#56 Jul 10 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Fynlar wrote:
SMN is not the only job with issues with staff trials, here. If I truly went the whole way and min/maxed everything that I wanted to, I would need more staves than a career SMN does. Nobody is forcing me to be a crazy min/maxer, and there certainly isn't anything forcing SMN to be, either.
I didn't say SMN was. It is the only job hurt by not doing it though. I don't like the staff section in general because mages need several to cover just one aspect of a job whereas other jobs don't.

Fynlar wrote:
Or they can, y'know, make the accuracy staves instead.

Not really needed for debuffs, not the best option for nukes. Does somewhat depend on the player's current gear, though.

Quote:
You don't have to decide that. If you're not playing SMN, put your perp staves away in your safe or something. If you are, put the other staves away.
Yup, saw that after the fact, mistook the Ex tag for Rare.

So... 2 sets instead of one.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 2:06pm by jlejeune
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#57 Jul 10 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
Quote:
Quote:
Let's try to find some common ground. Please stop as soon as you disagree. You do agree that they ninja-ed the perp cost to be higher than expected, right? You do agree that the dev team specifically planned both of these changes in conjunction, one relying on the other, right? Specifically, you do agree that a balancing decision was reached by the dev team which jacked the perp cost up abnormally, but offset it by the new Magian staffs, in order to result in more busy work by the summoners to be powerful, but to end in a state where they were not more powerful than where they started? (Not trying to be pejorative here about busy work. Just stating facts.) Thus, you do agree that the new Magian perp staffs are intricately tied to the ninja-ed perp cost increase, right?
No, I don't.

Perp cost has always risen with level; there is no reason to have expected otherwise. Also, it is natural to expect better gear to come out with a cap raise as well. Because both of these turned out to be true, you're assuming that one was only done because of the other, and that one was carefully built around the other? Where are you getting that from? It does not follow.

You have no real evidence of a direct link between the two; you are just scapegoating because you happen to not like the method for acquiring these things.
Again, please pick out which exact step(s) with which you disagree:

1- In the last update, they changed perpetuation from past patterns to be more perpetuation. See http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Avatar_Perpetuation_Cost
I shall hereafter refer to this as the nerf, the increase above past patterns. (Note that this applies specifically to Carbuncle, Fenrir, and the spirits. The evidence is less clear for the other avatars.)

2- In the same update, they added new staffs which perfectly offset the nerf.

3- The dev team, when deciding to do the nerf, also decided to do the new staffs which offset the nerf perfectly. That is, they were considered at the same time, in the same context, as inseparatable aspects of content; one cannot be done without the other.

I'm pretty sure you agree with 1. I could quote you else-thread admitting as much. I'm pretty sure you agree with 2. 1 and 2 are just questions of observable fact, so I hope there's no disagreement there. That leaves my conclusion, 3. I'm not quite sure how you can disagree with 3 given 1 and 2. At this point, you are certainly just being contrary because you are unable to admit to even yourself when you are wrong, or you are a troll. Either way, I await a sensible argument which addresses my particular points, as opposed to more "you're wrong" and straw men.

Quote:
Quote:
4- Also, Magian content is horribly retarded, the worst content in the game, least fun by far, and should not be expanded at all.
Read: I'm too lazy to work for my gear.
There is more than one possible interpretation of that. Here's my equally libelous interpretation for you: "Waaaaa! Salvage is too hard!". Perhaps we can agree that we both appreciate different kinds of content, and from my perspective slaughtering thousands of Easy Prey mobs under capricious conditions does not constitute fun.

Quote:
By the way, this is precisely what I meant by not pissing in everyone else's corn flakes just because you don't like yours (even though I'm sure you understood this and you're just trying to act dense on purpose). I happen to enjoy this content because unlike most of "endgame", it's something that I'm actually able to do.
I'm sorry that my suggestions would result in a less fun game for you. I will still make them and attempt to be civil about it. I would appreciate it if you could remain civil as well.

Quote:
Quote:
It is one of my "feedback and suggestions" that leveling should always make your character better in every facet, or at least not worse. This is in direct contradiction to the summoner perpetuation system.
I know that, I've already said that SMN is the only job that punishes you for leveling it.

If only you had made your post just about that, I would have actually been able to support this thread. Instead, you've managed to come across as a whiner who wants to ruin a facet of the game for everyone else because you don't happen to enjoy it.
Interesting. So now it's a zero sum game? Perhaps, could you disagree with the points with which you disagree, instead of a blanket negative attitude towards the entire thread? It seems unfair and unconstructive to myself, my other arguments, and all the other participants in this thread to badmouth everyone in it because you feel I'm a whiner in the forum whose expressed purpose is whining.

Also: so I like Salvage and don't like Magian, but you do like Magian and dislike Salvage. I'm glad you could finally be open with your feelings and attitudes. Apparently I do disagree with you strongly how the game should be. I will not apologize for that. To dev: please give me more things like Salvage (which isn't perfect) and less things like Magian (which isn't all horrible). That is, please give me more challenging encounters and content and less mindless drivel of slaughtering thousands of Easy Prey mobs under arbitrary and capricious conditions.

Edited, Jul 10th 2010 6:37pm by GerrardCapashen
#58 Jul 11 2010 at 7:06 AM Rating: Good
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
You wanna know what else isn't fair? When something kills a DRG's pet 5 minutes after summoning it, he gets to go 15 minutes pet-less. What happens when something kills a SMN's pet within 5 minutes -- hell, 5 *seconds* -- after he summons it? Oh, nothing much at all; you just summon another one for a piddly MP cost.

SMNs get to pay MP perp for their pets because they are the most expendable pets. Make any argument you want about how perp is excessive -- I'll probably agree with you -- but please don't try to defend it via comparisons with other pet jobs. The jobs do not work the same way.


You know, we can easily meet at the middle on this issue.

If an avatar dies or is released with < 50% HP, it will get perpetuation for the following 20 minutes. Call it "mental weakness" to go with the normal 5 min weakness on raised people. That way a SMN will just like a DRG or PUP get a penalty for 20 minutes if their pet dies. But if they manage to keep it alive, they have no penalty.

That way a careful DRG or SMN is treated equally. And unlucky DRGs and SMNs need to cut down on their "pet DoT". As fair as you can make it.

Coincidentally this gives us perpetuation solo, but no perpetuation in parties. Just as it should be.

Heck, am I up to 2 or 3 perfect solutions to the problem already in this thread? I wish SE would at least put some effort into reading these boards.
#59 Jul 11 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
*
103 posts
has anyone tested the earrings and rings named of the elemental staff serious? I am doubting it grants -perp, but if it did it would be nice to have a definite -3 perp with two -1 earrings, and -1 with ring (without having to use conjurer's). That + refresh at 81, and convert now, with siphon should do the trick.

Also ++I'm hoping++ that mythic holders will likely see more - perp boost along with magian, and eventually an autorefresh 2 as i dont see how that could break summoner.
#60 Jul 21 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
3,211 posts
Belgaer the Eccentric wrote:
Well let's be honest here, when has SE ever acknowledged making any mistake? I can't recall them ever having done so, though I can think of quite a few mistakes they've made. Just because the company never admitted it was a mistake doesn't mean it wasn't one.


That one time that Drain Samba worked for pets. They were very, very sorry that they made that mistake and were sure to apologize whole heartedly about the whole painful ordeal.
____________________________
I be Ranz... the Melee White Mage. Arrrr.(As seen on Phoenix)
The friendliest Dynamis linkshell on Phoenix
My FFXI AH Info
#61 Jul 21 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
801 posts
...and lets not forget the brief period where Aspir actually worked worth a crap....

Raist
#62 Jul 22 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
****
5,574 posts
BDHERTZER wrote:
...and lets not forget the brief period where Aspir actually worked worth a crap....

Raist

Yeah, because Aspir was completely and totally useless before that update, and it's back to being completely and totally useless now.

/sarcasm
____________________________
Lyonheart, like Eorzia, will be reborn in FFXIV!

FFXI veteran (Lyonheart and Lakiskline of Lakshmi)
1/467 on signed HQ Weskit!!!
#63 Jul 22 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
I am not one to comment to much on job classes I do not have 75+. However, I will come to fynlars defense in one regard. You should not ask for trial of the magian to be abandon just becuase it highlights what's wrong with your job class. Getting rid of magian will not solve your problems if it isn't the problem.


However the rest of the posts and the ops point are all things I agree with. Summoner should not be stuck at 75 becuase gaining levels puts them at a disadvantage.


On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?
____________________________
If cookies were milk and milk was cookies. Would Oreo's still be america's favorite brand of milk?
#64 Jul 22 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
Laxedrane the Irrelevant wrote:
On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?
Nope.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#65 Jul 22 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
Jack of All Trades
******
29,118 posts
My experience with the "broken Aspir" patch:

Fynlar casts Aspir.
200~ MP drained from the Greater Colibri.

<Fynlar> this is awesome!
The Greater Colibri casts Aspir.
250~ MP drained from Fynlar.

<Fynlar> ...ok, I'm over it


Edited, Jul 22nd 2010 4:49pm by Fynlar
#66 Jul 23 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Default
47 posts
Quote:
I am not one to comment to much on job classes I do not have 75+. However, I will come to fynlars defense in one regard. You should not ask for trial of the magian to be abandon just becuase it highlights what's wrong with your job class. Getting rid of magian will not solve your problems if it isn't the problem.
Your post has worth. You are quite correct that I should not say "Get rid of Magian!" solely because it was related to a nerf to summoner. The obvious solution there would be just not nerf summoner. However, as mentioned, I really hate Magian for the aforementioned reasons, and that is why I also want no more Magian content, and if by chance a miracle happened and all old Magian quests were changed to not drivel, or at least not overpowered compared to old content, I would rejoice.

Edited, Jul 23rd 2010 6:07pm by GerrardCapashen
#67 Jul 24 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
On a side note. Did summoner get auto refresh II? Since whm got regen II?


SE probably count on refresh getting SMN -3 perp at 82SMN. Just sucks that when every other mage gets refresh, Summoner gets to use it as -perpetuation just to remain at the same level of "suck" as previously.

Would have been fun if there was a level when SMN suddenly GAINED MP instead of lost it.
#68 Aug 17 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
**
452 posts
Avatar perpetuation cost is manageable at level 80, but what would it be like at 99? My solution is by 90-99 making a quest that allows us to upgrade the Carbuncle Mitts to Avatar Mitts. Avatar mitts would cut Avatar perpetuation cost in half of all Avatars.
____________________________
99 blm, 99 thf, 99 rng, 99 whm, 99 drg, 99 pld, 99 bst, 99 war, 99 nin, brd 99 , 99 rdm, 99 smn, 99 pup, 99 drk, 99 blu, 99 sam, 99 mnk, 9 cor, 61 dnc, 99 sch
#69 Aug 19 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
167 posts
Quote:
Now, lets make this a BLM and RDM issue. You've played for years with all your spells costing the same amount. Now all of a sudden, you break a level cap and level up. You picked up two new spells, but they cost a lot to use. But I get new Magic Burst Bonus, and more INT/MND to work with so my old spells are more powerful/accurate now under the right conditions. But wait...wtf? all my previous spells are suddenly costing me more to use them??!! Oh, cool... there's magian trial weapons that will offset it. But...I have to do one weapon for each element to cover all my spells. Oh well... time to grind the hunt lists.

That isn't quite an accurate comparison I believe. The damage boost BLM gains just by leveling from 75 to 80, is like 12 more dmg on a Tier IV, and macc is moot cause all good BLM can easily cap mhitrate. We get no extra MAB trait, and just a few INT and an extra T2 or T3 of MP. I'm sure Avatar's get more stats, higher attack and defense and HP.

Try comparing the damage boost vs the perp cost at 75, and again at 80. Are avatars less powerful at 80 then 75 compared to the perp cost?

Either way people are complaining about the time sink of magian trials, but they really aren't that bad. Like a previous poster, how many avatars do you really keep out "all the time" anyway? Is it more then 3? I play just a few hours a day and I current managed to leveled 3 jobs to 80 in regular parties, and have fully unlocked 3 staffs for BLM. Compared to joining a shell back in the day, and getting points to lot kitty pants or any endgame ex gear over other people, the magian staffs are far easier to get.

3 maybe 4 days of playing and devoting all your time to it can get you a fully upgraded staff. As a regular endgame-er, I don't consider that a "big time sink"
#70 Aug 19 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Everything needs to be put in perspective.

1. It is cake to get a -3 perpetuation staff
2. 8 magian staffs is like 10 000 - 12 000 mob kills to get 8 inventory slots that give -5 perpetuation
3. The only reason you need to upgrade the staff is because SE increased your costs

In comparison it is like THFs LOSING triple attack trait at level 80, but being able to make a magian weapon with "triple attack" on it, by just killing 12 000 EP mobs on specific days. It is a whole load of work for just getting back to the point you just were at 5 levels ago.

It just screams insanity to remove something from a job and then add a fix that requires work. It would stop at stupidity if there was one staff with -5 perpetuation that required some 1 200 mob kills. It would have been called a sign of sanity if perpetuation hadn't grown. A brilliant mind would have removed it though, but we can't expect anyone of that caliber to work at SE.
#71 Aug 19 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
167 posts
Quote:
2. 8 magian staffs is like 10 000 - 12 000 mob kills to get 8 inventory slots that give -5 perpetuation
3. The only reason you need to upgrade the staff is because SE increased your costs

In comparison it is like THFs LOSING triple attack trait at level 80, but being able to make a magian weapon with "triple attack" on it, by just killing 12 000 EP mobs on specific days. It is a whole load of work for just getting back to the point you just were at 5 levels ago.

It just screams insanity to remove something from a job and then add a fix that requires work. It would stop at stupidity if there was one staff with -5 perpetuation that required some 1 200 mob kills. It would have been called a sign of sanity if perpetuation hadn't grown. A brilliant mind would have removed it though, but we can't expect anyone of that caliber to work at SE.

I know only a bit about avatars and their strengths but please outline how you need all 8 of them, and why you can't make do with 3 for melee. You NEED to be able to have the all out with free perp? SMNers in my ls, I only see melee with 1 or 2, rest are used for certain buffs only, but feel free to enlighten me.

And for the THF example, for it to be true, when you did get those kills, the triple attack you "Regain" would be stronger then before. Again I assume avatars gain strength from 75-80?

And lets say you do need every one of those staffs for smner to be good, you could unlock them in a month if you went hardcore at it. Duo with my roommate I got her 2 unlocked damage sticks in 3 days.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 1:58pm by Reynark
#72 Aug 19 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
801 posts
Seems like you don't actively use SMN. I do. It is the only job I spend more time on other than BLM. So, apparently you don't have a firm grasp of how this affects gameplay.

I have both BLM and SMN to 80. I did that more or less doing magian trials from level 76--and have only managed to get MNK to 77 because LS needed a DD for a couple hours in abyssea one night. I still have 4 other jobs to get to 80. I have done almost NOTHING but magian trials since the update--I break off to do abbyssea an average of once a week, and spend one afternoon doing mission fights/BCNM's for LS. I am currently unemployed, and am able to dedicate 8 hours or more of gameplay on most days. Because4 of the nature of HOW you have to kill the mobs on these lists, uyou often don't get to team up with anyone, and are left to solo about 90% of the lists. I have completed an Ice and Thunder stick for BLM, and Fenrir's staff for SMN. Shiva is 1 stage from completion, Ramuh almost to -4 perp stage, and Garuda is 1 stage from -4 perp stage. I still have over 1200 kills to finish those 3 staves...and we are about to get another level cap increase.

And yes, I use those avatars a lot, and have them out for extended amounts of time. I also use Leviathin a lot too, and haven't even started his staff yet.

It's a matter of efficiency. NO OTHER JOB IS AS DEPENDANT ON A MAGIAN WEAPON AS SMN.

And because of the way they implemented it, it is one of the worst grinds amongst the "normal" lists for upgrades. Some jobs complete a weapon in only 675 kills--and it can be useful on more than one job. These take 1000 kills each, multiple lines, and only benefit ONE job. Any job /SMN can negate perp well enough with an HQ elemental staff (I use WHM/SMN as I don't have SCH unlocked).


hope that helps put things a little more in perspective for those that don't understand...

Raist

edit: Oh, and pertaining to increased strength at 80: If you don't have a -5 perp. staff, and use Avatar's Favour to offset the perpetuation--you NERF THE AVATAR by 10% or more. So to reset your perpetuation wtihout a magian staff, you are negating most the gains in output gained from the increase in levels. NO OTHER JOB HAS GONE THROUGH SUCH A TRANSFORMATION WITH THIS UPDATE.

Edited, Aug 19th 2010 6:10pm by BDHERTZER
#73 Aug 20 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
****
6,424 posts
BDHERTZER wrote:
edit: Oh, and pertaining to increased strength at 80: If you don't have a -5 perp. staff, and use Avatar's Favour to offset the perpetuation--you NERF THE AVATAR by 10% or more. So to reset your perpetuation wtihout a magian staff, you are negating most the gains in output gained from the increase in levels. NO OTHER JOB HAS GONE THROUGH SUCH A TRANSFORMATION WITH THIS UPDATE.


That's overreacting. The 'transformation' is a mere 2/3 perpetuation extra. Annoying, yes, but nothing game breaking.
The amount of MP gained over the 5 new levels offset the additional MP drain, so you're at worst back at the start.
And if you take into consideration that SMN gets access to Convert at 80 (and Refresh at 82 soon), MP becomes less of an issue in a lot more situation.

RDM on the other hand has seen niche roles destroyed, job defining spells and abilities relegated to other jobs, and overall effectiveness culled. If this keeps up, RDM will become one of those jobs you take along because the player didn't have anything better.
____________________________
No PUP, no glory! <Inferno Claws [4563/3520]>

"Puppetmaster was our last best hope for peace. It failed.
Now it's our last best hope.. for victory!"
#74 Aug 20 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
This is getting blown way out of proportion. It's like your treating this as an omen to come. Honestly this was likely just to have your gear prepped for the next updates and to tread in some waters. So you gained an extra -2mp but in the long run it will likely even out when they start readjusting traits and costs specifically for 99 instead of an 80 cap. THIS ISN'T THE END OF THE WORLD, RELAX!

Dev 1: Maybe we should up the perp costs for this update so smn's can start getting their gear ready when we readjust them for the proper levels.
Dev 2: Sounds like a great idea!
Dev 1: Hopefully they don't mistake this as were gonna give them perp cost every level.
Dev 2: Ho, ho, ho, no one would ever be that blunt. (<- is really santa)
#75 Aug 20 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
801 posts
Quote:
The amount of MP gained over the 5 new levels offset the additional MP drain, so you're at worst back at the start.


If I had gained about 200 base mp during those 5 levels this might be a valid argument (avatar out long enough for buffs and 3 or 4 BP rages eats up more mp than we've gained by leveling).

And while /RDM is convenient when there is no threat of a death without reraise, that works. But sometimes you may still want to sub WHM or SCH for various reasons, so saying /RDM is a solution (even post 82) is still a SITUATIONAL fix. The "nerf" is something that applies 100%. And yes, I call it a nerf--it costs more and hinders your efficiency unless you find a way to offset the cost if you don't have better gear (ie use of favour, as stated earlier not having the gear may be forcing you to nerf your output).

RDM can still play as it always has. Just have more jobs that can do the same things. Maybe not as well as RDM, but can do them. Um... hello SCH vs BLM and WHM? Not a fair comparison. SMN is the only job that does what SMN does, and it has been outright penalized by leveling.

Blown out of proportion is it? only a 2/3 increase you say? This may be true, but bear in mind that that increase came at a rate of 3 or less levels, when over the course of the first 75 levels it was twice that gap. I mean, really... TWO bumps back to back for one class. It's an increased scaling (from 1-80 vs 1-75) of around 10% or higher than the previous rates of increase. If they saw fit to bump it twice in 5 levels, it's safe to assume there will likely be at least one more bump for every 5 levels to come. It's almost as if they INTENEDED SMN to do magian trials, and then made them a ridiculous grind on top of that. THAT is what is so insulting about it. It isn't so much that it's unmanagible if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it---it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.

Back to trying to solo sheep that spawn chigoes twice while trying to kill them with garuda...costing me over 600mp a piece to kill solo because no one wants to team up with me. Talk to me after you've done this for 450 mobs for Garuda and Shiva's staves....

Raist
#76 Aug 20 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Blown out of proportion is it? only a 2/3 increase you say? This may be true, but bear in mind that that increase came at a rate of 3 or less levels, when over the course of the first 75 levels it was twice that gap. I mean, really... TWO bumps back to back for one class. It's an increased scaling (from 1-80 vs 1-75) of around 10% or higher than the previous rates of increase. If they saw fit to bump it twice in 5 levels, it's safe to assume there will likely be at least one more bump for every 5 levels to come. It's almost as if they INTENEDED SMN to do magian trials, and then made them a ridiculous grind on top of that. THAT is what is so insulting about it. It isn't so much that it's unmanagible if you're willing to dedicate yourself to it---it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.

Quote:

it's more the slap in the face to be made to feel like you HAVE to do it, when no other job suffers such a dilema.


Quote:
when no other job suffers such a dilema.


Nope. no other jobs have to start magian trials to keep up or stay ahead. (/sarcasm)

Once again they will likely readjust as time goes on. You're worrying over nothing since 5 levels doesn't mean much in the long run. Until some proof shows that at 99 your going to have a ridiculous perp cost I'd consider the current costs just treading in shallow water to get a feel for eventual perp.
#77 Aug 20 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
801 posts
Quote:
Nope. no other jobs have to start magian trials to keep up or stay ahead. (/sarcasm)


Name one job that had any trait or stat negatively impacted that any magian trial weapon SPECIFICALLY offsets. Keep in mind, that is basically all those staffs do--offset the extra -2 perp. The only other thing they do is offer a slightly higher DPS over an HQ elemental staff.

Any other magian weapon just enhances a job above what they already get by leveling up. The SMN staves offset something a SMN LOOSES because they leveled up--and are in most cases far more demanding to complete.

Raist
#78 Aug 21 2010 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
*****
10,553 posts
You know, I'd by sorely disappointed if SMNs can't get -Perp in their Magian armor. SE may cheese you and make it avatar specific, but then again, they might not.
#79 Aug 21 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Default
They intended every job to have to do magians not just summoner. In terms of losses most jobs lost a lot of money spent into previous weapons. Every job is almost required to do a magian trail path to keep up on their weapons so you're in the same boat regardless. Summoner is really no different and you're still not sure of the intended outcome in the long run. This thread is "to soon" because of this.

Quote:
Name one job that had any trait or stat negatively impacted that any magian trial weapon SPECIFICALLY offsets.


BTW you were looking for a job I can give you two. Just in this case they are positively impacted but don't have any offset for their "cost". ^^ How about RNG and COR? They both have "costs" for play just they don't have an option to bring their costs to 1gil or zero through a trial. *Well we can count money as a "stat" but magian doesn't offset that. Guess that makes them in a worst position.*

add.
I suppose BLM/SCH/WHM can also be counted since they have higher spell costs but cannot offset them unless their gear becomes potent or weapons have improved greatly to offset cost/cure to mp ratio.

add. 2
I suppose every job has the time factor though which gets negatively impacted but magians offset that with consistent upgrades.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:11am by Kinoki

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 10:14am by Kinoki
#80 Aug 21 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
801 posts
um, no... no... and no...

RNG and COR cost for gear is consistent for all jobs--if you WANT better items, you pay for them in one way or another. Everyone goes through the same proces in that arena. you can stay with the same gear/supplies, or farm/craft/buy better stuff. That is a choice of how you want to gear and play.

Gil is not a stat. It is a resource, with too many ways to restore it. Granted, prices have dropped for a lot of items because of the flood of people pawning items for quick sale. A large part is actually due to the fact everyone is doing trials. Upgrade weapons and may not want other one anymore, pawn it off. And what else are you going to do with those 5 stacks of slime oils? Sell to NPC, or undercut on the AH to make a little more than NPC sale price? Craft them into oils and undercut the AH?... This is one arena where trials may also be having a negative impact, but that's another story. There's also the COP items bbeing easier to get, cruor gears, and abyssea NM drops people are getting, so they are pawning gears from that too.

BLM/WHM/SCH did not get an increased spell cost. Thunder4 still costs the same as always---but by nature of leveling up it does more damage for the same cost. Tier v spells cost more than tier 4's becuse... um... they are Tier V's. And BLM doesn't have to really spend any more gil on gear if they don't want to. If they do abyssea, they can spend cruor on a few MAB pieces if they want to. They can also buy a flat INT/MND/CHR with cruor when they do abyssea so they don't have to pump gil into INT foods if they don't want to. If they want other gears--say, maybe upgrade to HQ versions of some pieces--those prices are dropping (see above paragraph).

The same cannot be said for Summoner. PC does potentially more damage at 80 vs 75, but it costs you MORE MP to have Garuda out. Unless, of course you have Favour up and nerf ATT/ACC a little to offset the gains from levling up. And yes, it does nerf physical output a little. It's not as bad as with their MAB, but it is nerfed slightly. As I've stated earlier, I've been doing a lot of long lists on SMN. On the same mobs, same weather/day/moon combinations. Favor wears and my PC's will jump from max 2100~2200 damage to 2400~2500 damage (merits not capped out on SMN yet). Not a major differene on the top end, but I tend to whiff more often for the 200-1000 PC with favor up than without, so when I'm having to rely on the big damage like that on a fight, I don't use favour. So for solo, it may be mute, but when it counts--we are taking a penalty that other jobs do not.

SMN pays more to do things the same it has always done or maybe a little better... period. Everyone else pays the same, but gets to do more than they always did before. BLM and SCH are good examples of this. They can cast the same spells in the same gears as before for the same cost with a bigger MP pool and do more damage/less resists. The same does not hold true in all categories for SMN. The only way for SMN to remedy this is to get more -perp. gear. Bear in mind that they choose armor for various reasons--some want skill, or avatar accuracy, or BP Timer reduction. So if they replace an armor piece for -perp, they may be reducing another beneficial stat. The best way to do that is with the weapon--and the only option is to do magian grinds.

That is what is so distressing about it. SMN was left virtually no choice, while for everyone else it is purely optional.

Raist




#81 Aug 21 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
To make YET ANOTHER example to explain to people how wrong it is:

WAR at 75 has 80 STR (hypotetical). At level 76 they lose 1 STR and now have 79. But lucky you! You can upgrade a magian Axe with +1 STR on it. At level 78 you lose another STR and are back down to 78 STR. But with the ultimate magian upgrade, you get +2 STR on the axe and offset the loss.

Of course in this case the WAR only needs 1 magian. To make it completely comparable, it needs to read "+2 STR against plantoids". To have 80 STR against all enemies, you need 8 fully upgraded swords reading like "+2 STR against dragons" and "+2 STR against vermin" etc.




THAT is our Summoner problem. A loss of stats that we are expected to painstakingly work to remove. Do we get stronger at the end? Well, yea, same amount as stronger as a WAR75 leveling to WAR80 without buying a single new item. Just plain stat boosts.


I really just want a fair system. Either melee should get "vs plantoids" weapon lines and be forced to make 8 sets, or mages should get "straight +power/-perpetuation/whatever" weapons so they only need to make one weapon. (or if single handed weapons, it could be made to require two of them). I don't expect anything else than fair play. Either everyone suffers, or nobody. But I hate seeing how this game is just "Make the Summoner's suffer" update after update after update. Might as well rename the class to @#%^s so the blatant abuse and hate becomes visible. (I bet that word is censored, but think african-americans old name back when they were slaves)
#82 Aug 21 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
How many times does it really need to be said. This thread is to early for anything about summoner. We still have 19 levels and then a slew of readjustment specifically for the cap. This should be here 6 months down the line when the current feel of the game isn't a beta for 99.

Quote:
That is what is so distressing about it. SMN was left virtually no choice, while for everyone else it is purely optional.


We all have choices just you don't like the choices currently given to you. Instead of waiting for those choices to change and become more favorable you'd rather complain about them as if it is set in stone. You gotta chill out we've got at least 4 months til the final level update and then likely another 3 months of total review of 99 abilities/traits/stats/everything. IF you still don't see an improvement then complain. Complain to your heart content that you royally got screwed, but, for right now "too soon".

At this point, imho, Magians are not optional, especially if you intend to keep up with the rest of the population. The longer people wait on their magians the more annoying it will be when they have to finally catch up. I'll say it to you again, were all in the same boat and you can't jump out of it just like the rest of us.(cause of the sharks. They like tasty adventurers.)

Unfortunately I'm fairly certain you will survive with the added perp. The encounters in this game will not penalize you for not having that bit extra perp mp especially when it comes to party play. The only region this affects is solo play and that is really just another 10 seconds of downtime.

Quote:

RNG and COR cost for gear is consistent for all jobs--if you WANT better items, you pay for them in one way or another. Everyone goes through the same proces in that arena. you can stay with the same gear/supplies, or farm/craft/buy better stuff. That is a choice of how you want to gear and play.


The RNG and COR cost is not for better items it is for the same items just more of them. The atuff does not get better it stays consistent. This is a sink cost of the job. No other jobs suffer a sink cost equal to them (outside of base costs of food/ninja tools). arrows/bullets are not easily returned in the same fashion as resting.

Gil can be treated as a statistic or a resource it doesn't matter. Gil can be measured in terms of a number so it is how you want to approach it.

Quote:
To make YET ANOTHER example to explain to people how wrong it is:

WAR at 75 has 80 STR (hypotetical). At level 76 they lose 1 STR and now have 79. But lucky you! You can upgrade a magian Axe with +1 STR on it. At level 78 you lose another STR and are back down to 78 STR. But with the ultimate magian upgrade, you get +2 STR on the axe and offset the loss.


SMN at 75 has 1200 MP (hypotetical). At level 76 they gain +1 perp but now have 1215 MP. But lucky you! You can upgrade a magian Axe with -1 Avatar Perp on it. At level 78 you gain +1 perp and are up to 1245 MP. But with the ultimate magian upgrade, you get -2 Avatar Perp on the staff and offset the loss.

Well sh*t son my mp gains will never cover my perp losses. And my damn avatar didn't become more powerful. I don't understand this. Why do you screw me SE!?

For as many "issues" as summoner has, it seems to be a fairly popular job when I stroll around. They also seem to be content with the job so I'm not really sure how you peeps have so many issues with it. Was it not what you assumed it should be?

I tend to avoid summoner leveling just because of mellowy making out the job to be a total cesspool of broken crap. The reality is that when I watch other summoners play the job it never appears anything is really wrong with the job. The job isn't a sam/drk/whm/brd and I really have no idea what people on this board are trying to make it into anymore. The job performs hate-less damage/healing/buffing at a moderate/high mp cost and in turn requires them to rest easily replenish-able mp.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 8:07pm by Kinoki
#83 Aug 21 2010 at 6:01 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
801 posts
well.. if I recall correctly, SMN has had issues that have been complained about from it's beginning that still haven't been resolved. BST has had issues for a long time that weren't touched on until recently. PUP has had issues since it was introduced that still have yet to be addressed. It seems like you have to complain for ages to get anything done about it.

Just when do you propose is the right time to start complaining? If no one complains, then it's safe to assume there is no problem, is it not?

Squeaking wheel gets the grease....

Raist

Edit: oh, and it's not that we don't like the "choice" that has been given to us. We really don't have a choice. With -2 perp. increase, we loose a good bit more MP between bloodpacts now. PC and Spinning Dive cost 164 MP, Eclipse Bite costs 109 MP...etc. Do the math on the increased mp bleed across several BP's. It means we can do fewer BP's before we HAVE to go into a recovery cycle. It is an outright nerf to SMN's output. Show me where any melee is now forced to build more TP to use the same WS, or a mage has to recover more MP after casting the same spell now. Then show me any magian trial specifically designed to offset that. Then, if you do find such a case... does it apply to multiple situations like one per element, or is it a one-size-fits-all remedy. Whether it is an in-between phase or not, there is no denying that SMN got crapped on big time, and you expect us to just lie down and take it? I think not....

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 8:19pm by BDHERTZER
#84 Aug 21 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Squeaking wheel gets the grease....


In this day and age the squeaking wheel gets thrown out and replaced...

You need to wait til we see results not complain on things that are up in the air at best. Seriously when was the last major level update?

Quote:
SMN has had issues that have been complained about from it's beginning that still haven't been resolved.


This requires more details. I'm honestly curious and since you seem to be the esteemed definer of issues I must know. Also don't use perp cost, that is not an issue that is a process of development.

Edited, Aug 21st 2010 8:21pm by Kinoki
#85 Aug 21 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
801 posts
um... idk about you guys, but I've been wating 3 uyears for some fixes... if not longer...

Raist
#86 Aug 21 2010 at 6:23 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
um... idk about you guys, but I've been waiting 3 years for some fixes... if not longer...


What kind of fixes?
#87 Aug 22 2010 at 7:02 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Edit: oh, and it's not that we don't like the "choice" that has been given to us. We really don't have a choice. With -2 perp. increase, we loose a good bit more MP between bloodpacts now. PC and Spinning Dive cost 164 MP, Eclipse Bite costs 109 MP...etc. Do the math on the increased mp bleed across several BP's. It means we can do fewer BP's before we HAVE to go into a recovery cycle. It is an outright nerf to SMN's output. Show me where any melee is now forced to build more TP to use the same WS, or a mage has to recover more MP after casting the same spell now. Then show me any magian trial specifically designed to offset that. Then, if you do find such a case... does it apply to multiple situations like one per element, or is it a one-size-fits-all remedy. Whether it is an in-between phase or not, there is no denying that SMN got crapped on big time, and you expect us to just lie down and take it? I think not...


And in the end long-term vs short term is what this comes down to. You have no model for 75-99 mp perp. This could be the final perp cost waiting to be extended over the next few levels. This could also be the beginning of a heavy rise in perp that will get overlooked in a couple months due to more -perp gear. You can also get pissed on and just have a heavy rise with no rise in -perp (really doubtful). You know what is gonna control this gear though. NM's, Drop rates, crafted items, currency bought items, and magian trials. Out of all of those magians are the newest to that line. What did magians ever do to you, what makes you think this should be faulted on magians?

We got armor trials coming up which is, more than likely, gonna have designs into more -perp. Design your af3 to cover all your costs that you will ever need. You can have a bunch of sets strictly designated towards all the common variables. We never know, they might even be combined improvements.

As far as staves go. All mages (except whm at best) got crapped on. Your cries are about as equal to a blm/sch/rdm as far as the staves go. I got some good news. You can change your job (squee! ^^) so everyone probably leveled more than one job and likely one mage job is among them.(I know melee with a mage type job. crazy!) Well that just kinda put everyone in a fairly equal situation. Since magian has this issue with every mage job, not just smn, people with multiple jobs have to put in the same work.

Magians is not the reason to blame though for this. There could have easily been a thread that just asked them to re-evaluate the avatar perp then pissing on another game mechanic since it 'appears' this one is trying to screw you not the adjustment to the job.


Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 9:20am by Kinoki
#88 Aug 22 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Back to trying to solo sheep that spawn chigoes twice while trying to kill them with garuda...costing me over 600mp a piece to kill solo because no one wants to team up with me. Talk to me after you've done this for 450 mobs for Garuda and Shiva's staves....


Just wanted to throw this out there but grab someone from your LS before they need to head out ask them if they can change to 17-20 job and sync to him out in kon highlands. They get xp you get kills. Saves a lot of time.
#89 Aug 22 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
Magians is not the reason to blame though for this. There could have easily been a thread that just asked them to re-evaluate the avatar perp then pissing on another game mechanic since it 'appears' this one is trying to screw you not the adjustment to the job.


The elemental path split on magians are subject to complaints since it is done wrong. Just how you don't need "Darks day: cure potency, Firesday: cure potency, etc" you shouldn't need a whole slew of staffs for -perpetuation. And as I've said, there are no hordes of "vs plants, vs beasts, etc" weapons. The only jobs that seem to suffer from "make plenty of magians" is SMN and BLM and RDM and SCH. (Threw in RDM for good measure, but not sure if it has this problem)

If you view it as a "Make only one staff, and be specialized in one avatar" it sounds like a pretty good idea though. But the problem with SMN is that your spells are bound to avatars. You can't just say "I'll just use Fenrir" and expect to get hastega, healing ruby etc. No, you have to use all avatars, and because of that you need all staffs.

(With all staffs I actually do not mean light and fire, because carby is cheap and ifrit sucks)

A BLM on the other hand can do pretty well with just focusing on one element (their highest tier). Level 76-99 will be a rather uncertain growth when it comes to which element to focus on though.
#90 Aug 22 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
And as I've said, there are no hordes of "vs plants, vs beasts, etc" weapons. The only jobs that seem to suffer from "make plenty of magians" is SMN and BLM and RDM and SCH. (Threw in RDM for good measure, but not sure if it has this problem)


Want to know why those don't exist. evoliths. No one would bat an eye at the system if it was filled with that kind of uselessness again.
Quote:
You can't just say "I'll just use Fenrir" and expect to get hastega, healing ruby etc. No, you have to use all avatars, and because of that you need all staffs.


Quote:
A BLM on the other hand can do pretty well with just focusing on one element (their highest tier).


Lining these up so you can see where your assumptions are wrong. Your missing something kinda a key point. Something along the lines of performing one action vs multiple actions. if you just had blood pact: rage and decided to only spend it on one avatar all the time there is no difference between you and a blm (a one to one action performance). Therefore you really only "need" one staff. You don't know what is the best pact yet so you feel that you "need" to invest in more than one staff or you feel you "need" to do more than one pact every timer. This, unfortunately, is not an issue with the magian system.


Edited, Aug 22nd 2010 2:29pm by Kinoki
#91 Aug 22 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
801 posts
that is the big problem...it's not typically a good idea to dump all your eggs in one basket for SMN, unless you only use SMN for certain things. For fighting Fenrir, we always used Leviathin in my group. For ACP fin, Fenrir. For pots, Titan smacks them around best. There is a slew of situations where you need a different avatar for different reasons. So in that sense the elemental focus may vary from SMN to SMN.

On the other hand, every BLM I've ever known eventually focuses mostly on two elements (if not just one) because they are the best elements to invest in for a slew of reasons. If you don't understand that, go to the various BLM forums on the web. It is not just blindly accepted as the best way to go, it has been backed up by data on various boards. I made the mistake of trying to be a balanced BLM, and it's not working worth a crap for me now and I'm having to redo some merits to fix that.

And another thing, a BLM doesn't need a magian staff because an element has been penalized by hitting 80--all elements are improved slightly just from leveling. If they have an HQ set of staves, it can only give up to about a 10% bump in output depending on the tier used vs. the mob you are casting on. You are also loosing some of your MACC as well, which could put you at higher resist rate if you are already geared marginally against a perticular target. So, it would make sense to use a magian staff only on the element(s) that you have customized your character to accel in so you don't have to worry about the loss of an affinity point in MACC. Focdusingn on a limited group of elements is a standard practice for BLM. I have known BLM that only make obis for few certain elements because that's all they wanted to enhance. Again, they have that choice with magian staves.

SMN staves are a whole different ball game. A BLM staff enhances the gains earned by leveling and meriting. A SMN staff doesn't enhance the ACC/ATT of their magic--it offsets a negative effect on your magic because you leveled. A BLM only has to concentrate on the element he/she wants to ENHANCE. A SMN has to make a staff for every element he/she wants to RESTORE. If you are a SMN that only uses Fenrir, Garuda, and Carby--then grats, you need only worry about a couple staves. But if you are a SMN that has found themselves using a bunch of avatars a lot, then you may very well feel like you HAVE to kill over 6000 mobs to offset the penalties imposed on you for leveling. Yes I used penalties because it penalizes every avatar element you do not create an offset for, and you have to make an item to offset each element individually. So in that sense it's like you got 8 penalties applied, one for each element.

Again...I feel like a broken record on this... SMN is the only job that gets penalized by leveling, and has to do a magian trial to offset that penalty without sacrificing anything else in their build. I know, we've always had to fight a rise in perp over the years--but it's never been stacked like this. And we always were able to get the gear to offset it beforehand, and from a more direct means--crafted, bought, or drops from mobs. In this case we got the penalty, then have to grind through a ridiculous serieis of trials to offset it after the fact.

Any other job can choose to do a magian weapon to get something BETTER than what they already have as a weapon choice, further enhancing the gains in output merely from the act of leveling up. SMN gets nothing but on offset to a penalty imposed because they gained 5 levels. They don't gain any more damage output derived from the weapon--they just no longer have to sacrifice the output of their magic (ie, avatar is nerfed when favour used to offset perp.). All they are doing is putting it back on par with what they gained simply by leveling up. At least the HQ elemental staves gave us elemental affinity so we gained elemental resistance, some sort or stat boost, and if you subbed something with offensive magic those spells might get enhanced a bit. Now, if the staves also gave an avatar trait bonus as well as a -perp effect, or at the very least maintained their +1 affinity they have just befrore going into the last column, that would be different. But as it is, they do nothing but undo a new penalty.

Note also that you can only get the -5 perpetuation if you are level 80, which is when the extra -2 perpetuation is in full effect. Note also that that is exactly -2 more than the -3 gained from an HQ elemntal staff that you can BUY on AH and equip from level 51, which btw is BEFORE additional tiers of -perp. are applied. If these staves had remaiined equipable at 75 for -5 perp, it might be a different animal (ie, you can lock the job at 75 and merit it and get -2 perp. at 75 and stay there if you wanted). But, as it is you can only reap the full benefits of the staff seemingly for the express purpose of offsetting the penalties applied for hitting level 80.

And as for the prospect of armor being augmented with -perp, or maybe they nix any future planned perp increases. Everyone has clamored about the increase in perp since the update (actually for years if you consider it has been a thorn in SMN side for a long time now)...who knows if those decisions aren't in response to the complaints, or was part of the original intent.

Regardless, it just goes to show how little they regard SMN. One hand is giving the bonus while the other is taking it away...every other job just gets the bonus and a pat on the back with the other hand.

/endrant, and no more feeding the trolls

Raist
#92Kinoki, Posted: Aug 22 2010 at 8:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your points have to be real valid there to totally get rated up. The only fault is that none of that had anything to do with Magians being faulty or poorly created. Perp cost has been around for ages this is not something new. Magians just came around recently. Magians was not the cause of your perp and should not be treated as such. Magians is pretty open to adjustments. You want weapons better? Make a suggestion not a complaint.
#93 Aug 24 2010 at 5:53 AM Rating: Excellent
**
910 posts
Mellowy wrote:
Quote:
Magians is not the reason to blame though for this. There could have easily been a thread that just asked them to re-evaluate the avatar perp then pissing on another game mechanic since it 'appears' this one is trying to screw you not the adjustment to the job.

The elemental path split on magians are subject to complaints since it is done wrong. Just how you don't need "Darks day: cure potency, Firesday: cure potency, etc" you shouldn't need a whole slew of staffs for -perpetuation. And as I've said, there are no hordes of "vs plants, vs beasts, etc" weapons. The only jobs that seem to suffer from "make plenty of magians" is SMN and BLM and RDM and SCH. (Threw in RDM for good measure, but not sure if it has this problem)

If you view it as a "Make only one staff, and be specialized in one avatar" it sounds like a pretty good idea though. But the problem with SMN is that your spells are bound to avatars. You can't just say "I'll just use Fenrir" and expect to get hastega, healing ruby etc. No, you have to use all avatars, and because of that you need all staffs.

(With all staffs I actually do not mean light and fire, because carby is cheap and ifrit sucks)

A BLM on the other hand can do pretty well with just focusing on one element (their highest tier). Level 76-99 will be a rather uncertain growth when it comes to which element to focus on though.

The problem for SMN is perpetuation and its increase, not magian staves. Blame the perpetuation, not the magian system (though it is tedious).
BLM can still use the good old Elemental staves and be as potent as they were. The magian staves will just improve their performance.
For SMN, because of the new perpetuation, they have to get the magian's to perform "as well" as they used to.
BUT you don't need to have a magian staff if you are not using your avatar to melee. Just cast Garuda with your good old Auster staff, use hastega and then dismiss it. So unless you are talking about avatars' melee or the lolaura, you can specialize in one avatar.
BTW, it seems like some new NM (like the big worm in Abyssea Tahrongi) are less resistant from Wind, which is not one of the two elements most BLM specialize in.
____________________________
Cutaru BST lvl 75 on Gilgamesh.
http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/profile.xml?158212
BCNM/KSNM Can I have it ?
#94 Aug 24 2010 at 10:04 AM Rating: Good
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
You are only partly right.

I have ZERO issues with a magian path that gives me -7 perpetuation to all avatars at 80.

I think it is dumb to have a magian path that gives me -5 perpetuation to all avatars at 80 because it means I have to work to get back to the starting point leaving me with zero progress, but luckily zero loss.

It is insane to make an elemental specific 8-split -perpetuation path in magian that only reach up to -5 at 80.



Magians could easily have been done right. But instead it was decided that the existing mythic puts a limit at -4 perp globally, so you have to split them up. SE also always loves designing for looks, so they probably also thought it looked cool to have elemental magian staffs.

I understand why it is this way. But that is like saying that you understand the other kids bully you because your last name is Bob. It doesn't make it right.


Quote:
Also! Last I checked... were still 80. That is a lot of growing room and a lot of adjusting that will occur over 19 levels.


Last I checked SE hasn't done anything correct about Summoner the last 10 years. They've grazed the spot, but never hit it. Expecting SE to get it right, is like waiting on Duke Nukem Forever. FYI it is canceled.

Quote:
Did that about sum up why you should really show some patience?


So how many years are one expected to wait? Might I add I am still waiting on "New avatars that will have less perpetuation" that was promised 2006. (Even though technically Odin and Alexander has zero perpetuation, but if you want to use that logic you might as well expect a bucket of puke in the next update as "Summoner green item".)
#95 Aug 24 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
SE also always loves designing for looks, so they probably also thought it looked cool to have elemental magian staffs.

600 reskins later. Designing for looks. Wat?

Quote:
Last I checked SE hasn't done anything correct about Summoner the last 10 years. They've grazed the spot, but never hit it. Expecting SE to get it right, is like waiting on Duke Nukem Forever. FYI it is canceled.


Obviously they have done something right if your still playing the same job 9-10 years down the line. If the job was total trash and incapable why even touch it? Just because it is not your way doesn't mean it's the wrong way. Your improvements that could be made =/= the designers intentions.

Quote:
So how many years are one expected to wait?


How many years was it since the 75 cap? Why can't you wait at least until the cap is done before making solid arguments?

Quote:

It is insane to make an elemental specific 8-split -perpetuation path in magian that only reach up to -5 at 80.


We don't know enough about magians. If they decide to lower the kill count again this argument will be hard to make if you don't have to do much per staff. Nirvana is sorta the prize staff so you don't have to carry 8 3. Also that -5 perp staff could easily become a base staff to lead into -5 perp physical pact bonuses and -5 perp magical pact bonuses. But you know what... we don't know.

There is likely a plan. You just need to give it a bit more time before valid complaints can be worthwhile. I mean this is like complaining about abyssea before we even knew anything about chests and time bonuses.


Edited, Aug 24th 2010 3:56pm by Kinoki

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 3:58pm by Kinoki
#96 Aug 24 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Good
***
3,059 posts
Your argument would work better, Kinoki, if SE hasn't shown a clear and consistent history of not or haphazardly addressing the problems plaguing SMN. Stop telling SMNs to wait, I think we've put in our due time.
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#97Kinoki, Posted: Aug 24 2010 at 3:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) 11/10/2009 This was due to an interview where designers mentioned they want smn's to keep their avatars out. This has been mentioned somewhere on this board within multiple threads long before this came to be.
#98 Aug 24 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,059 posts
I know what my job does, thanks. The uninformative synopsis was unnecessary.

GETTING things is not FIXING things. SMN is not cost-effective or time-effective, which is why it's shunned in all but the largest or most specific events (and even then it's just tolerated). Those would be the issues plaguing SMN, which people who have paid a minimum amount of attention to SMN have seen and discussed to great length for many years. None of the additions you so graciously pointed out fixed that. They would fall under the "haphazard" addresses I mentioned.

The added rages are situational at best, useless and underpowered at worst.

Alexander and Odin are not new avatars, they do not fill the same function current avatars do, welcome though they may be. They changes to the 2HR which makes SMN a one-trick pony every 2 hours, best case scenario.

Favors? Well, they're nice, in a way. But they're not as potent as other jobs (primarily BRD and COR) while simultaneously being more costly. Jobs, when compared to each other, should in a general sense be more potent for more cost (time-effective) or less potent for less cost (cost-effective). Less potent for more cost is counterintuitive and is again a haphazard address to an issue that has plagued SMNs.

Even BP split to Rage/Ward and the skill changes are bandaids, covering the core mechanics which falter SMN effectiveness with duct tape.

Quote:
Sorry I had to throw a bit of a wrench into your imagination "SE doesn't do stuff for smn" machine.
I'll manage, somehow.

Edited, Aug 24th 2010 6:58pm by jlejeune
____________________________
"And I'm prepared to passionately argue this point until nothing makes sense anymore. If that doesn't work, then the hours upon hours of whining will." -Red Mage Statscowski

Saggo of Garuda Lakshmi
#99 Aug 25 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatard
*****
11,630 posts
Quote:
These havn't been lackluster updates for anyone, smn included


- Increased perpetuation
- capped siphon
- skill over cap bullsh*t
- capped -BP timer bonus
- FREAKING Summoner's cape
- Diabolos 2 hour
- Favor system
etc etc etc

Quote:
New job trait, however, not for the newer levels but to amplify previous levels. Havn't found much information on this, I guess it was equal to conserve MP but idk.


Seen it trigger twice in 4 months. I've probably missed a few, but in general it should be something like 10% activation at highest.

Quote:
06/22/10 New pacts for the increase in level.


They are fun. But merit BPs are still better, and physical attacks are usually better as well. Not to mention what the job needed was new Wards... 5 years ago.

Quote:
03/22/10 While the initial response was "WTF 2hrs?!" this has shown to be a very worthy decision on the designers side due to the abuse for AV kills with Perfect defense. This has also been asked for for quite some time.(The avatars not the 2hr thing I quoted)


Nothing wrong with 2 hours. The problem is their promise to give us avatars we could keep out longer. I haven't seen my Odins stay longer than 5 seconds tops. Just plain lies and failure from SE.

Quote:
11/10/2009 This was due to an interview where designers mentioned they want smn's to keep their avatars out. This has been mentioned somewhere on this board within multiple threads long before this came to be.


And it was a failure. Utter failure. You won't see a single Summoner use favors outside of refresh whore and -perpetuation. Buffs? Nobody cares because they are on the wrong avatars.

Quote:
I'm fairly certain they have been trying to address your issues.


Trying and failing. Heck, if you fail 10 years in a row, can it even be called trying? Ever see a student held back 10 years in a row because they couldn't grasp the basics?


No, we are quite used to this by now and have the rights to even kick SE staff in the kneecaps if we meet them.
#100Kinoki, Posted: Aug 25 2010 at 7:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Like I said they've been trying. More effort they've made in this job in comparison to other jobs recently. All these changes as well, have nothing to do with magians.
#101 Aug 25 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
***
1,996 posts
Mellowy wrote:


I think it is dumb to have a magian path that gives me -5 perpetuation to all avatars at 80 because it means I have to work to get back to the starting point leaving me with zero progress, but luckily zero loss.


This is an outsiders perspective. I have a 74 smn but it never gets to see the light of day. However, now that the amp is popping in Abyssea we took as many smns as we could out to Dem to try it. We had 5 smn and 2 bst. To say that going from 75 to 80 gives you 'zero' progress....well I just cant see it.


At 74 my pred claws averaged 181 damage. 181. That's terrible.

The 3 level 80 smns averaged (at least while I was in range to have it show up in my log) 737. I don't know if that is good or not, but its a whole lot better than 181. Plus their avatars were obviously living longer as well. It was a 22ish minute fight and I only had to rest twice with refresh being my only source of mana regen. Temp items + a martello gave us plenty of wiggle room.


Let me tell you that amp is a beast! When a couple of mages got hate when our pets were down it was lights out. Having pet jobs made a difficult fight a cakewalk. And if perp costs were lowered through the floor it would have made it even easier. I understand that everyone dreams of a day when pets can be out forever and ever. And I understand that it would be great if you could actually use them in an exp situation. But having seen what just a handful of avatars are capable of against a mob like that.....I just don't know if they need strengthening in any way including less perp (or even the same perp as they get stronger and stronger). After the amp Bakka dropped like a ton of bricks. Balaur had no chance. Etc etc etc. How much easier should SE make nms to burn down with no risk of damage taken?
____________________________


Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 17 All times are in CDT
Anonymous Guests (17)