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Samurai Defining AbilitiesFollow

#1 Jun 02 2004 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
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I have decided to make this idea its own thread, considering this idea deviates from the general samurai improvement threads. The following is derived primarily from SkArcher, and all credit is given to him, for having thought of a system to implement new abilities for samurai. If you want to read SkArcher's Kenjutsu thread, just click the link: My thoughts on changes to Samurai by SkArcher. Sit back, this one gets a little long.

Bushido Kata Stances
I agree with the idea that samurai should be given abilities that give them that class defining traits, something that actually makes them worth playing past 37. Kenjutsu was a great idea, basing these new abilities off the 7 kata of bushido. However, the kenjutsu abilities he talked about all sacrificed TP to help either himself, or the group, but still did not really define samurai as much as other classes are defined by their innate abilities.

I suggest that the 7 samurai abilities be active ability stances for fighting, much like monk's counterstance.

first, a brief review of the 7 kata (virtues) of bushido.
  • Gi - Rectitude (Right Decisions)
  • Yu - Courage

  • Jin - Benevolence

  • Rei - Respect

  • Makoto - Honesty

  • Meiyo - Honor

  • Chugi - Loyalty

  • Samurai are taught the kata throughout their training, and practice it long after they've learned the kata. Through practice and the knowledge of the wise bushido leaders, samurai can learn an appropriate fighting stance, demonstrating their knowledge of the kata.

    Gi - Rectitude (Right Decisions)
    This is an agressive stance where the samurai holds his blade above his head, which distracts the enemy, so that he may not form tactics as quickly. The stance increases the samurai's strength of blows, and his attack power as well, while making it harder to parry blows and protect the body.
    Effect:
  • attack +10
  • STR+5
  • DEF-15
  • parry -10%
  • Mob Effect: TP gained at 1/4th normal rate
    Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 5 min

    Yu - Courage
    This stance allows the samurai to prepare for a courageous fight against the most fierce of enemies by swinging faster. During this stance, the samurai's focus is narrowed to his opponent, and his stance allows him to attack much quicker than the standard stance. The samurai prepares himself for ferocious attacking based on how difficult the enemy is.
    Effect:
  • haste +3% on decent challenge and lower
  • haste +5% on even match
  • haste +8% on tough
  • haste +10% on very tough
  • haste +15% on incredibly tough
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 3 min

    Jin - Benevolence
    The samurai knows best how to serve. Giving to others is a cornerstone of this virtue of the samurai. The samurai shares his tactical strategies with his fellow warriors.
    Effect:
  • party members recieve the effect Store TP
  • samurai recieves Store TP -1
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 3 min

    Rei - Respect
    The samurai show great respect for formidable opponents. This stance allows the samurai to study his opponent, before making a sudden, well placed strike. The samurai can learn more from the most difficult challenges. The samurai takes additional time to calculate a well placed strike, increasing accuracy and the chance to strike the enemy critically.
    Effect:
  • chance for critical attacks +5% on decent challenge and lower
  • chance for critical attacks +8% on even match
  • chance for critical attacks +10% on tough
  • chance for critical attacks +15% on very tough
  • chance for critical attacks +20% on incredibly tough
  • slow 10%
  • accuracy +10 (points, not percent)
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 5 min

    Makoto - Honesty
    This stance allows the samurai greater calm during battle. By easing the nerves of the samurai, it steadies his blade, and makes his strikes more true. Although this ability increases accuracy immensely, by calming the nerves of the samurai, he also loses the ability to evade.
    Effect:
  • evasion -99%
  • accuracy +20% (yes, percent, not points)
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 3 min

    Meiyo - Honor
    The samurai honors his opponent by learning from his experience. This stance makes the samurai very aware of his every move, and every mistake. Through this learning, the samurai attains further tactical strategies about how to engage his enemy.
    Effect:
  • Store TP +5
  • slow 5%
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 5 min

    Chugi - Loyalty
    This stance allows the samurai to perform his trained duty, protection. The samurai shows his loyalty to his fellow groupmates by positioning himself between a party member and the opponent, effectively guarding the party member. The samurai must target the party member he wishes to be a body guard for, then engage the Chugi stance. This stance also increases the chance to parry.
    Effect:
  • guarding
  • parry +15%
  • attack -5
  • Duration: 3 min
    Recast: 3 min

    Obviously, only one stance can be used at once, and when a stance is started, any previous stance is cancelled. If a battle ends before the duration of the stance is expired, the stance is cancelled. Each stance would be learned by a scroll, attained by questing after the first piece of artifact armor is achieved. The scrolls are EX, meaning that you can't sell them, or trade them to another player. Below is a listing of when the bushido stance scrolls are available to be quested for.

    Makoto - Honesty: available to be quested for after the AF1 quest is completed. (attainable at level 40)
    Yu - Courage: available to be quested for at level 45.
    Chugi - Loyalty: available to be quested for after the limit break quest is completed. (attainable at level 50)
    Jin - Benevolence: available to be quested for after the AF2 quest is completed. (available at level 50)
    Meiyo - Honor: available to be quested for at level 55
    Gi - Rectitude: available to be quested for when talking to the NPC wearing full AF gear (attainable at level 58)
    Rei - Respect: available to be quested for at level 65

    I would like to see graphical changes when the samurai switches stance, but because i know development time is not cheap, this remains just a dream. i would appreciate any feedback you might have about these stances.

    Samurai Specific Crafted Items...by Samurai
    i would also suggest that there be samurai specific items that are obtained only through crafting. Sheaths, more great katanas, different samurai specific gear, ect. would be included in these items. Samurai would be the only ones that would be able to craft these items. Now, before you start thinking "well why don't you ask for the world while you're at it", let me point out how this could be implemented. There could be key items (non inventory) that only samurai can get, yet they would be required for synthisizing these items. There could be 7 key items in total that are required to synth all samurai specific gear. one that would allow the samurai to be able to craft samurai specific items (sheaths and lower level great katanas) that are for level 20 and under. another key item that would allow lvl 20-30 items, another that would allow lvl 30-40 items, and so on.

    It only makes sense that Sheaths for samurai come from other samurai, and who would know better how to make samurai armor and great katanas than other samurai? this would build a niche into the game, making these items that much more rare, but yet, that much more desireable. I'm not saying make it manditory that every samurai be a crafter, i'm just saying that if these items are going to be made, they are going to be made by a samurai of the appropriate level...a level 1 samurai shouldn't be able to craft a samurai specific lvl 75 great katana, or lvl 40 samurai armor for that matter.

    Samurai Dual Wield / Wielding Katana
    Although it is historically correct that samurai were taught how wield a weapon in each hand, i think that it should be an ability attained after level 40. to be quite clear about the samurai's weapons...its rediculous that samurai have the ability to wield a sword at a C rating, but cannot wield a katana at all. Samurai carried 2 katanas (Katana and Wakizashi) and a dagger sized weapon (Tanto). The katana most often had a 2 handed handle (elite samurai prefered a half tang handle, in order to wield 2 full sized katanas), but was light enough to be wielded with one hand. The wakizashi could be as big as the katana, but was more often 3/4 the size of the katana, about the size of a standard sword. The tanto was next to never used. it was used for throwing, for seppuku (suicide), or for stabbing, if it was the only weapon left.

    In game, Samurai can already wield daggers, rated at an E. this seems accurate to me. However, Samurai should be allowed to wield katanas at around a B rating. For gods sake, samurai got their "Great Katanas" by diriving it from chinese war lords' curved katanas.

    I think that from lvl 1-39, Samurai should be able to wield one weapon, either a Great Katana with two hands, a katana with one hand, a sword, or a dagger.

    At level 40, the Samurai should be allowed to wield a Great Katana in the main hand, and a katana or a dagger in the off hand. Only katanas or daggers, not great katanas. The dual wield efficiency would work just like ninja's dual wield given at lvl 25. (delay of both weapons added together, then 15% off that amount)

    At level 65, the samurai should be allowed to wield two Great Katanas, and the dual wield delay reduction should be 20-25%. If the Samurai is subbed Ninja, ninja dual wield does not apply when a great katana is equipped.

    before you scream about information overload and overpowering of samurai...I'm not asking for all of these to be implemented, just some of them, or perhaps modified versions, but something has to be added. let me know what you think, and i appreciate the feedback!
    #2 Jun 02 2004 at 4:20 PM Rating: Good
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    Edited, Wed Jun 2 17:52:08 2004 by adennak
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    #3 Jun 02 2004 at 4:35 PM Rating: Default
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    Errr, yeah, thanks for posting my ideas, I was about to do it myself tho

    First off, I would not level cap any of these - I'll post my original version where you can see that the TP costs for the different Kata are the balancing factor between the power levels.

    Next time, Ask BEFORE you post someone else ideas with only a minor note.


    EDIT: In fact, having looked at what you posted, you have completely screwed the idea up.

    You've made Gu a debuff (nonono for a SAM ability), the haste level on Yu is way too high, you've made Jin a PT wide ability (bad move - I shouldn't have to explain why)

    You've turned Rei & Makoto into clones of Berserk (I specifically designed the Kenjutsu NOT to duplicate the abilities of any other job)

    Your attempt at Meiyo simply doesn't require any skill, and again you've made Chugi just a buff, not a tactically useful ability.



    This thread does not accurately represent the concept and should not be implemented


    I've made a thread detailing the original version on this forum.

    Next time, Keep out of other peoples work ninaru.

    Edited, Wed Jun 2 17:47:19 2004 by SkArcher
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    #4 Jun 02 2004 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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    dude, no hard feelings, but seriously, i posted a link straight to your thread, and in my first two sentences, i rendered all credit to you, to which it is due.
    ninaru wrote:
    The following is derived primarily from SkArcher, and all credit is given to him, for having thought of a system to implement new abilities for samurai. If you want to read SkArcher's Kenjutsu thread, just click the link: My thoughts on changes to Samurai by SkArcher.

    if i didn't make it clear before, the ideas for Abilities based on the 7 kata of bushido are the result of SkArcher's work on his Kenjutsu thread, to which i listed a link to. It is a very worthy read, and i would reccomend it. Sheath also, not my idea, it is one that has been bouncing around this forum for the past few days. I'm not kidding when i say the hats are off to you, SkArcher...you came up with the idea for which this is based off of. Now if i would have said something using the small tags so that no one could see it at the very end, or not at all, then yes, i can understand your anger. but for now, chill out and take a bow for your hard work translated onto the main suggestion / feedback forum.

    /credit SkArcher
    #5 Jun 02 2004 at 4:50 PM Rating: Default
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    You've screwed all the abilities around and borked the entire concept up. Next time ask and don't rewrite.
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    #6 Jun 02 2004 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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    i'm not gonna keep responding to these, but one thing, i stated that these ideas were based on your ideas...that all credit should be given to you, not that you should be given a bad wrap if these ideas were crummy. I disagreed that they should be a single passive ability, not being able to change from fight to fight, so i changed that, and i changed the name from Kenjutsu to Bushido for reasons i stated in a thread where you first linked me to your Kenjutsu thread. Bushido is more appropriate, in my opinion, as are the changes i made to your kenjutsu idea. This is just my rendition on your ideas, and i was looking for feedback on those ideas...i gave you full credit, how much more did you want?

    EDIT: thanks for completely flaming my rating. would you like me to retract this? i didn't know it would anger you this much to post a rendition in my own thoughts.

    Edited, Wed Jun 2 18:03:36 2004 by ninaru
    #7 Jun 02 2004 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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    The real version is here, please read carefully and note the differences in the way the Kata work.
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    #8 Jun 02 2004 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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    Very good ideas, although it doesn't matter who's idea it is because in the end, it's SE's copyright.

    Fact of the matter, Any type of stance? Unfortunately, that would mean that they'd have to add brand new stance animations for each race.. Just for a job? We wish...

    They are quite powerful skills, it might unbalance the samurai job as opposed to the other skills. Keep a look at other jobs' skills... Who wants Souleater if they have these skills to choose from? Just an example though... I might be way off.

    In the end, I want those skills too :)
    rate ups!



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    #9 Jun 02 2004 at 6:08 PM Rating: Good
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    I like Ninaru's version A LOT better. Using small ammounts of TP should result in quick no-duration attacks/debuffs, not these weird 'unique' and ultimatly useless things.

    Your attitude doesnt help much either.
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    #10 Jun 02 2004 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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    man, skarcher - calm down. you are not fighting over a patent here, and to be honest, before I even got down to your rant, I read your Kenjutsu thread, to see where Ninaru got the idea. Ninaru did what most do on this forum, take ideas from reading others suggestions, and suggest your own opinion on it, except Ninaru went one step further, he said to give you full credit. Not saying I am in favor of making the SAM job uber, but Ninaru's version just sounds better, and makes more sense. I'm not sure about letting SAM craft their own items better than anyone else; that will just make a larger segregation of uber players and casual players since the items will be extremely rare. If the moderators think its too much of a copy of your idea, they'll delete this thread, so do not worry, and let the moderaters decide if Ninaru is stealing fame off your ideas. Good job Ninaru, and good job Skarcher.
    #11 Jun 03 2004 at 10:09 PM Rating: Decent
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    You guys realize that the more times you make job specific abilities and put so much detail into it, the less likely it'll happen in game? S-E probably doesn't want to get involved with patent issues, and will come up with their own ideas. So just give them general concepts and ideas, and let them do the work.
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    #12 Jun 04 2004 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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    I don't mean to question your authority Kyroc, but how do you know SE's procedures? they very well could take an exact idea from these forums, they don't need to patent each idea. The fact is, you don't know either, but by explaining each idea to detail, it shows SE that these abilities can be implemented while being balanced, or while correcting major flaws in a job, such as samurai. I for one agree with Ninaru, samurai needs an almost drastic change to make it so that samurai is a desired job in a party.

    Lash wrote:
    Who wants Souleater if they have these skills to choose from?

    You know, it actually proves that samurai needs a drastic change since you said this. Think about what that said...then ask "Currently, who wants a samurai when they have souleater to choose from?". I don't think Ninaru is asking for all those ideas to be implemented, but something that helps define samurai as a job.

    PS- skarcher...I have some pills to calm you down if you'd like. These forums are for people to post any ideas that would make the game better in that person's opinion. You shouldn't flame people for taking your idea and molding it into something that makes more sense to them, it happens all the time on these boards, and its good. Sometimes we get good suggestions right off the bat, sometimes its the ideas that spark from people reading someone else's idea that make for really good ideas. After Ninaru posted this thread up, I saw two more threads pop up, one about wielding daggers and katanas in the off hand, and one about sheaths. Those ideas aren't entirely ninaru's, but they were here in this thread before those came along. As long as someone puts a different spin on an idea, I'm cool with hearing a similar suggestion. I think the dagger/katana thread mentioned an ability called "switch" that allows a player to switch main weapon and off weapon without sacrificing TP. now that's an original idea derived from other's ideas. And a good one I might add.
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    #13 Jun 04 2004 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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    I'll agree with you, FujiwaraClan, i don't know.

    And honestly, being a samurai, i know how badly we need these type of ideas implemented. I just hope S-E is actually paying attention to these forums, and if they are, i hope they don't care about stupid things like patent issues, but instead take the care for balancing jobs like all damage dealers (except Drk), and adding new mage jobs. As is it, all damage dealers are pretty much offering the same **** thing to a party, making neither of them really so important they could undo the party. The importance of whm and tanks is ridiculously more than any dmg dealer. -.-
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    #14 Jun 05 2004 at 1:04 AM Rating: Decent
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    way too overpowered man.

    If everyone posts stuff thats so overpowered and completley unbalanced, SE will ignore these threads, and ignore potentially good threads as well.

    Haste +15% on IT mobs? ... recast and duration is the same too. So basically you just have a perma ability that adds 15% attack speed. Are you nuts? Thats fuma kyahan x5.

    And ur honesty one. 20% ACC+ at lvl 40? A lttle unbalanced... And evasion is almost useless when ur dmger. And recast and duration is the same again, another permability.
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    #15 Jun 05 2004 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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    Yeah i feel it should be the reverse way.

    +15% haste on worthless
    +10% haste on Ep

    ...

    +3% haste on IT
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    #16 May 03 2005 at 4:03 AM Rating: Decent
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    Sorry if someone said this but, I think the stances should be less 'ability like' and more like actual stances. In other words, once a Samuria learns his katas he will always be in one of the stances or the neutral stance. This would mean only one stance could be on at a time and there would be no Recast times.It could possibly have a diffrent battle animation or an icon along top determining your current stance. I do think that some of the stances are overpowering. Basicly, the Haste Stance and the one that gives +20% ACC (OMFNG). -99% EVA.... WHO CARES?! DD's arent meant to get hit and SAM rarely, if ever, Tanks after 40. As for the Haste one, it might be less overpowering if it say, traded Speed for less power? In other words, gain TP faster, but do less damage. Also, the Chugi(sp?) is good without the 'Cover' Effect. Maybe instead have it more like Ski's Chugi where you can Parry another PT member's attacks, but it still lowers attack and increases Parry. Basicly the same, except you arent taking the hits for them.

    Also, no offense Ski, but I like the 'Stance' Idea more than giving up TP for special effects. Just my opinion, but it seems kind of like giving Samurai Spells... NIN with spells, OK. DRK with spells, Of Course. DRG, WAR, SAM, THF with Spells... WTF? Having diffrent battle stances just seems to fit more.

    *Edit
    I looked at your other sugestions. As for a Sheath, I like that idea, but why make the SAM have to craft his own Sheath? It should be obtainable just like any other Items (ie anyone can craft it, NPCs can sell them ect). I also disagree with other gear crafted by only SAM. Some people dont want to craft (or don't have time to skill it). Some people want to Kill Stuff. Why should they have to suck at SAM? As for the Dual weilding... no. Just... no.If you're gonna do that, give WHM's Refresh and let WAR's Store TP. I do think that SAM should be able to Weild katanas though.

    Edited, Tue May 3 06:20:17 2005 by NeoSuplex
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    #17 May 03 2005 at 9:23 AM Rating: Decent
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    Quote:
    You know, it actually proves that samurai needs a drastic change since you said this. Think about what that said...then ask "Currently, who wants a samurai when they have souleater to choose from?". I don't think Ninaru is asking for all those ideas to be implemented, but something that helps define samurai as a job.


    I personally beleive he means why be a DRK and put up with Souleater which cannot be used too often, when you have all these half broken stances for SAM to choose from.

    Gi is relatively fine.

    Yu is broken. Especially with SAM Store TP abilities that won't heavily penalize their tp growth. 15% haste on an IT? Like the MNK said above I'd reverse their listing.

    Jin. . .how much store TP exactly? Do you know each Store tp +1 is .1 tp? That's like nothing.

    Rei. 20% criticals. . .you know WS can critical too. . .on an IT mob? Reverse the listing, making it increasing lower for it mobs. You can't even merit 20% criticals. . .rate is way too high.

    Makoto is a free accuracy buff larger than that of sushi. What's to stop you from downing a Yellow curry switching that on, and keeping it on forever, something just about everyone will do. who the **** cares about -99 or whatever evasion? You aren't gonna evade an IT mob anyways. All this will do is increase your rate of parrying. you'd have to add like 99% enmity or something to even make this balanced, and even then it'd be unusable. That kind of free accuracy is ridiculous.

    Leave the guarding to the pld.

    And dual wielding? Scythe like tp for a 450 delay weapon isn't good enough for you? SAM's don't TP fast enough? What the devil do you want? 25 tp a freaking swing?

    Dual wielding as a SAM? Leave it to the NIN. your Job is the absolute last job that should get a boost to it's tp gaining abilities. Furthermore, you do not deserve a B in Katana. Not only would you have access to Blade Ku, but you'd have a higher grade in Katana than my NIN has in Great Katana, and NIN's knew how to historically use Great Katanas too pretty **** well. You want Blade, Ku, fine, Give NIN Kasha too, if you want to give away all jobs defining ws while you are at it.

    NIN ws aren't even good. Why in sam **** would a SAM even want them? They have among some of the worst damage multipliers in the game. And scratching that, Dual wield G katas will give you roughly 20-25 tp a swing with your store TP traits.

    Do you honestly think some of these broken ideas will be implemented? If you want to look like Musashi, then ask for a new type of G katana that hits in some kind of split damage, that has the same kind of WS, and the same kind of Great Katana ws and D multipliers, and the same kind of delay, rather than encroaching on other jobs? For example. Lets say the G kata has a damage of 77 delay of 450. It takes the damage a katana like that would hit, and then splits that damage accordingly across bother G. Katanas. Lets say the Katana hits 140, this katana will split is 90, 50 in the two hits. It's base damage allows regular katana ws to be aquired, you tp the same, everything remains the same. Way more balancing that dual wielding 2 80 D Great Katana's giving you the effect of 900 delay, which with SAM's store tp traits would give them 20-23 tp per swing. Even reducing that overall delay will make a SAM smoke everyone. SAM's already smoke everyone save a RNG, and even that is a close race.

    Edited, Tue May 3 10:34:47 2005 by TheWhirlwind
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    #18 May 03 2005 at 10:01 AM Rating: Decent
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    Dual wielding katanas... dual wielding great katanas.?
    I can see the darks begging for dual wielded greataxes already.
    Its a two handed weapon. Unless you want to see a blm/nin dual wielding dark staffs, I suggest you drop that thought.

    As for the stances, you can do those without animations. Just make a shimmery effect or something around that charachter when its active. (not unlike other skills)
    To make them quested and powerful seems like a nice thing for samurai... some of those ideas are potentially unbalancing tho.

    Personaly Id shoot for a tp based magic system. In alot of boss fights people would kill to get someone that could drain or share their tp, and this is probly the only job that would ever get that skill.
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    #19 May 03 2005 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
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    I agree that SAM's (**** all melee) need a boost, and after reading over both you and SkyArchers posts, think tha these ideas have a lot of merit, but need to be reworked a little.

    The effects being greater depending on the difficulty of the mob, good idea, but dont have it start with DC's or EM's because that gives SAM's a better chance to solo mobs than any other melee. Which that isnt such a bad thing if other melee's are given a chance to be on the same footing.

    Also I think SkyArchers idea of having the abilities cost TP is a good balancing factor, you cant just pop one off at the begining of a fight unless you beat up on something beforehand.

    As for the animations, yeah they can just put in some sort of sparkley effect, no attack animations would need to change (although it would be great if new models/animations were added).
    Also the idea of a shieth is interesting, there were several styles of combat that involved draw techniques which is a whole new set of ideas ahead of that.

    The only things I dont agree with are the dual wielding, nothing related to historical refrence just that its the NIN's thing, their claims are utsusemi and dual wield. If a SAM were to dual wield G.Katanas that would put DRK and WAR using 2-handed weapons to shame.
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    Character name: Marauder
    Race: Elvaan
    Nation/rank: Sandy/5
    Primary job: Dark Knight
    When evil ascends and darkens consumes, bravery will light the way and wisdom will make it shine
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