Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Controversy over a Super Bowl adFollow

#52 Feb 05 2014 at 8:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
Yes.. Today. Because some of us have been fighting to ensure that English is the common language we all adopt against a growing movement to do otherwise.

Hahahahahahaha

Yeah, that's it. You're a real American hero Smiley: laugh
Quote:
If you agree that a higher percentage of immigrants speaking English is good, then why am I a racist/bigot for saying we should be encouraging immigrants to speak English?

I didn't call you a racist or a bigot. I called you a jingoistic xenophobe. Seemed appropriate for someone losing his **** over "America the Beautiful" being sung in the "wrong" languages ad using that as a launching pad to rant about how the scary Left wants to Balkanize the nation until it crumbles.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#53 Feb 05 2014 at 8:14 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
19,841 posts
Quote:
I didn't call you a racist or a bigot. I called you a jingoistic xenophobe. Seemed appropriate for someone losing his sh*t over "America the Beautiful" being sung in the "wrong" languages ad using that as a launching pad to rant about how the scary Left wants to Balkanize the nation until it crumbles.


This.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to enable interpersonal communication by having a common language. I'm 100% on board with increasing access to English language courses for migrants or natives looking to learn to speak English.

But there IS something (a lot) wrong with being so xenophobic that just the idea of "America is beautiful" being said in different languages drives you insane.

Because what you're saying isn't "I want them to be able to speak English," what you're saying is "I want them to not be allowed to speak another language."

And that's really freaking different.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#54 Feb 05 2014 at 8:15 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
31,711 posts
Jophiel wrote:
I didn't call you a racist or a bigot. I called you a jingoistic xenophobe.


Whatever words are used, you're attacking me for saying something that you also claim to be a good thing. If a higher percentage of immigrants learning English is good, then how can it be bad to say that we should be encouraging immigrants to speak English?

Quote:
Seemed appropriate for someone losing his sh*t over "America the Beautiful" being sung in the "wrong" languages ad using that as a launching pad to rant about how the scary Left wants to Balkanize the nation until it crumbles.


And yet, someone thought that it was a great idea to show people from different backgrounds singing "America the Beautiful" in different languages. What did you think that was about if not about opposing the idea that American culture includes the adoption of the English language? That was the message! So you can sit here denying this, but it's right there in front of you. That ad was designed to make people accept a multi-language America by associating multiple languages with ethnic diversity so that anyone who opposed the ad would be viewed as a bigot/racist/xenophobe.

And, based on the responses out there, it worked. The ad was a ringing bell Joph.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#55 Feb 05 2014 at 8:22 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
19,841 posts
Quote:
Whatever words are used, you're attacking me for saying something that you also claim to be a good thing. If a higher percentage of immigrants learning English is good, then how can it be bad to say that we should be encouraging immigrants to speak English?


"Encourage to learn English" is not logically equivalent to "Discourage them from speaking other languages."
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#56 Feb 05 2014 at 8:23 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
31,711 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
But there IS something (a lot) wrong with being so xenophobic that just the idea of "America is beautiful" being said in different languages drives you insane.


WTF? It's not driving me insane. I'm saying that it sends the wrong message. And if you truly agree that encouraging English as the common language of America is a good thing, then you ought to agree.

The problem is that, as I pointed out in the post above, the ad was designed to maximize the association with other emotional issues (like racism, ethnic acceptance, etc), so that your first response to anyone criticizing the ad would be to think they were being racist or bigoted. And once you formed that initial emotional response, it's nearly impossible for you to back out of it and look at the issue with fresh impartial eyes.

Um... which was the point. Grats on being manipulated.

Quote:
Because what you're saying isn't "I want them to be able to speak English," what you're saying is "I want them to not be allowed to speak another language."


Nope. You're projecting. How about instead of trying to demand that I agree with what you think my position is, you actually stop, breathe, and listen to what I'm telling you?

I have no problem with someone speaking other languages. I do have a problem with directly associating the use of other languages with "America the beautiful". It sends a message that a common language isn't part of what makes America, America. It's the singing of that particular song in multiple languages that I have an issue with. If they had sung a song that was about cultural diversity, I'd have had no problem with it. But they were singing a song that is praising a single specific culture.

By singing it in multiple languages, they're saying that American culture isn't about one language. But, as you, me, and Joph, have all agreed. Part of American culture is about adopting one common language.

Quote:
And that's really freaking different.


Yes. And I"m at a loss why you keep thinking that's what I'm saying after I've repeatedly said "that's not what I'm saying". If it was, I'd be offended by the singing of any song in any language other than English, right? But that's not the case. It's about that particular song, and what that particular song means, and what message is sent when you very intentionally sing it in multiple languages.

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 6:28pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#57 Feb 05 2014 at 8:24 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
31,711 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Quote:
Whatever words are used, you're attacking me for saying something that you also claim to be a good thing. If a higher percentage of immigrants learning English is good, then how can it be bad to say that we should be encouraging immigrants to speak English?


"Encourage to learn English" is not logically equivalent to "Discourage them from speaking other languages."


For the umpteenth time. No one is saying people can't speak other languages. I'm saying that by singing that particular song in multiple languages, it sends a very specific message about American culture and language. OMG are you freaking dense as ****!

And not, it's not accidental. They chose that one specific song to sing. It wasn't like a group of different people who speak different languages were just hanging out and singing random songs, and happened to decide to sing America the Beautiful. It was an ad. Every single element of that ad was chosen and deliberate and has meaning. The people who made that ad spent months going over every single aspect of it, and if you don't think they knew exactly what message they were sending, and how people would react, and how people would react to that reaction, you are dumb as a freaking rock.

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 6:26pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#58 Feb 05 2014 at 8:27 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
Whatever words are used, you're attacking me for saying something that you also claim to be a good thing.

No, I'm attacking you for your hysterical attitude towards it and insane screeds about how The Left!! wants to tear down America by having people sing in different languages.

Quote:
And yet, someone thought that it was a great idea to show people from different backgrounds singing "America the Beautiful" in different languages. What did you think that was about if not about opposing the idea that American culture includes the adoption of the English language?

Smiley: laugh

Seriously. You're a @#%^ing loon.

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 8:28pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#59 Feb 05 2014 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
14,943 posts
I haven't been driving around noon at all this week. Was this a hot topic with Rush and Hannity?
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#60 Feb 05 2014 at 8:33 PM Rating: Excellent
******
43,849 posts
gbaji wrote:
Because some of us have been fighting
How loose a definition of "fight" and "us" are you working with here?
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#61 Feb 05 2014 at 8:33 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
31,711 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
And yet, someone thought that it was a great idea to show people from different backgrounds singing "America the Beautiful" in different languages. What did you think that was about if not about opposing the idea that American culture includes the adoption of the English language?

Smiley: laugh

Seriously. You're a @#%^ing loon.


Am I? Then what do you think was the purpose of having them sing in multiple languages Joph?

I'm honestly curious. Let's imagine that there were two version of this ad. Both of them had the exact same visuals. The only difference is that in one, the entire song is sung by each group in English, and in the other, each section is sung in a different language (as the ad appeared).

Why would you chose to do the ad one way versus the other? And don't say it was just random chance. Nothing in an ad like that is unplanned. They chose to do the audio the way they did it. They had a reason for doing so. There was some message that having the song sung in multiple languages sent that they preferred over one in which it was sung entirely in English. What was it?

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 6:34pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#62 Feb 05 2014 at 8:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
****
5,649 posts
gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The idea that American culture is incompatible with other languages is crap. It's xenophobic and, frankly, racist.


Um... No, it's not. A common culture requires a common language. This is exactly the problem I'm talking about. You've been taught that culture is just people living in the same geographical area. But it's not. They have to communicate with each other in order to be a part of the same culture. You cannot have a single culture in which the people do not all speak a common language.

It is not xenophobic or racist to say this. It's simply the truth. The problem is that there has been a movement to eliminate the idea of what "culture" actually is and replace it with a bunch of garbage ideas. You're the victim of exactly the sort of long term multi-cultural la de da... ... ...

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 5:57pm by gbaji


There is something loaded into this kind of talk. I can't quite put my finger on it, but don't you think it's convenient that nothing can be considered "racist" or "xenophobic" so long as you can come up with some half-hearted excuse for it not to be. You are side stepping and telling us what is and isn't culture. The bottom line is we live in a country inhabited by people of many cultures with many languages, and getting indignant and upset whenever someone who isn't part of your culture makes themselves known in public is nothing short of childish, and as far as I know we are all grown-*** men and women here. I can't believe we're even having this discussion.

How selfish do you have to be to expect everyone to assimilate themselves into your culture just because you feel it is somehow dominate or superior to theirs? Is it hurting you somehow that people with recent roots in other countries still speak the language they grew up with or celebrate holidays you've never heard of instead of Christmas and Easter?

What will happen in 40 years when the majority of people in this country speak Spanish? Are you going to give up speaking English and learn the language they think you should be speaking to them? "God all these dirty gringos stinking up our community." They'll say, in Spanish.

What really blows my mind is how quick folks are to defend themselves when they're accused of being a racist and/or bigot. It doesn't matter if every other word that comes out of their mouth is the "N" word, or how frequently they rant about wanting to round up the darkies and hang them. They're so NOT racist. They will proudly wear the words "stubborn" and "ignorant" like a badge of ******* honor. Just don't call them racist, lest you break their poor little hearts.
____________________________
my Tumblr
Pixelmon Server Info
Rust Server Info
#63 Feb 05 2014 at 8:47 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
Am I? Then what do you think was the purpose of having them sing in multiple languages Joph?

To make you go ******* insane, apparently.

I'm not playing this game. More entertaining to see you show your true self.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#64 Feb 05 2014 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
******
43,849 posts
Jophiel wrote:
More entertaining to see you show your true self.
Only thing that would make it better would be if Clint Eastwood did a voiceover.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#65 Feb 05 2014 at 9:08 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I don't think anything is going to beat Gbaji taking credit for the rate of language assimilation among immigrant populations.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#66 Feb 05 2014 at 9:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
By breaking the song into parts and having them sung in different languages, it sends the opposite message.
That we accept you even if you don't speak English yet?


Nope. It says that we encourage you to not speak English ever, nor is it important that you teach it to your children, because America isn't about one culture or one language, so you should oppose anyone who thinks you should learn to speak English. Please tell me you know that there has been a fight over the whole "English as common language in the US" for like 50 years now and that this ad clearly takes a side in that fight?
Well I'm pretty sure you think that's the case. You know people do support those ESL classes in the schools and such.

Quote:
And yet, we still have opposition to any sort of movement to make English the official language of the US.
If it helps you feel any better, I'm rather ambivalent to either side of that issue. It has never been and we survived fine, if someone is dying to make it official *shrugs* whatever, no skin off my back.

Quote:
So they want to sing American the Beautiful in English, right? So why not show all those people singing it in English so as to show us the ideal that these kids are striving for? Wouldn't that send the right message in support of all those kids who want to learn English? Do you really not see how this commercial takes a position in opposition to that? It's telling those kids "There's no need to learn English".
I'm going to spend the rest of the night rather dumbfounded that those points are all connected in your head somehow.

gbaji wrote:
Because some of us have been fighting to ensure that English is the common language we all adopt against a growing movement to do otherwise.
Smiley: tinfoilhat
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#67 Feb 05 2014 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
gbaji wrote:
Then what do you think was the purpose of having them sing in multiple languages.. ?
To sell soda pop.

Edit: Seriously dude, did you miss the globalization thing that's been brewing over the last few decades? Everybody is learning more languages than ever, because people from all over the world are mixing more than ever. If you live in a non-English speaking country, you're likely learning some state-mandated English. If you live in an English speaking country, you're likely learning another popular second language. We need it these days when we're so interconnected. I mean, tourist signs in 6 different languages, Spanish announcements on the train alongside English ones. It's not just happening here you know.

Right? Smiley: confused

Edited, Feb 5th 2014 7:51pm by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#68 Feb 05 2014 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Gurue
*****
16,288 posts
gbaji wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
By breaking the song into parts and having them sung in different languages, it sends the opposite message.
That we accept you even if you don't speak English yet?


Nope. It says that we encourage you to not speak English ever

No it doesn't.

I'd ask what's wrong with you, but I don't have that much time.
#69 Feb 05 2014 at 11:24 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
You've been taught that culture is just people living in the same geographical area.
Because you say so? Hubris much?


I don't speak for any but myself on the issue of presuming you are a racist, but the fact remains that a large minority of GOP folk I know are racist. A significant chunk of the GOP are racist. You are a member of the GOP. You stand with the racists.

If it looks like a ****, and it smell like a ****.........
____________________________
Allegory wrote:
Bijou your art is exceptionally creepy. It seems like their should be something menacing about it, yet no such tone is present.
#70 Feb 06 2014 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
gbaji must be a real killjoy on It's a Small World ride.

Just to keep you honest gbaji, (as you're already apparently a bit loco) can you please cite some evidence that supports your theory that non-English speaking immigrants to the US are unwilling to learn English?

plz.
____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#71 Feb 06 2014 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,417 posts
Honestly, English is a terrible language to learn. We should have all switched to Esperanto decades ago.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#72 Feb 06 2014 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
******
27,272 posts
Catwho wrote:
Honestly, English is a terrible language to learn.
Smiley: dubious
English is a grammatically simple language that's much easier to learn than most if not all other languages I know.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#73 Feb 06 2014 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I learned English easier than any other language, therefore English must be the easiest language to learn and all non-English speakers are just lazy. Also they hate America. Because the Left forced them to do so via soda commercials.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#74 Feb 06 2014 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
Hippy.


____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#75 Feb 06 2014 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
The dudes at Stormfront don't seem half as upset as Gbaji. A handful of "I told my wife to enjoy her Coke because we're never buying any again" posts but no multi-paragraph screeds about how the Left is trying to break apart America by encouraging immigrants to live in monoethnic enclaves and dissolve our culture via soda advertising.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#76 Feb 06 2014 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
******
43,849 posts
That's what The Left wants you to think.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#77 Feb 06 2014 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,417 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Honestly, English is a terrible language to learn.
Smiley: dubious
English is a grammatically simple language that's much easier to learn than most if not all other languages I know.

English violates its own rules willy-nilly, just because it can. We're allowed to make up new words in English whenever we feel like it, and if they get popular enough the OED might even make them official. We rob other languages of their words for fun.

About the only positive thing about English as a language is because it's got so many words, either made up wholesale or stolen from other languages, that it has the ability to describe details that other languages have to make idioms to describe. English is great at nuance, probably better than any other language. (Japanese and Chinese achieve that same kind of nuance through character choices, but that only works through writing.)
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
#78 Feb 06 2014 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Catwho wrote:
English violates its own rules willy-nilly, just because it can. We're allowed to make up new words in English whenever we feel like it, and if they get popular enough the OED might even make them official. We rob other languages of their words for fun.

U.S.A.!!
U.S.A.!!
U.S.A.!!
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#79 Feb 06 2014 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*****
11,278 posts
Catwho wrote:
We rob other languages of their words for fun.


*looks down at my sig*

Smiley: glare
____________________________
Shaowstrike (Retired - FFXI)
91PUP/BLM 86SMN/BST 76DRK
Cooking/Fishing 100


"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#80 Feb 06 2014 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
19,841 posts
Elinda wrote:
gbaji must be a real killjoy on It's a Small World ride.

Just to keep you honest gbaji, (as you're already apparently a bit loco) can you please cite some evidence that supports your theory that non-English speaking immigrants to the US are unwilling to learn English?

plz.


I mean, to be fair, there are people who see no particular reason to learn English. Why? Because they live in areas of the US where it's not needed. They have access to services and systems that allow them to live just fine using the language they know already. The more diverse an area becomes, the higher its capability to support those groups becomes. You end up with more ethnic groceries with multilingual staff, you end up with restaurants that are fully capable of taking orders in other languages, you probably even have access to news sources (at least for state and federal news) in your language. And then you can often get local news in your own language through local groups, like churches or other community organizations.

What gbaji is so angry about, even if he doesn't want to admit it, is that A, this diversity is increasing and these peoples can live in new areas than they used to (suburbs with increasing frequency, where it used to be solidly cities), and that B, this means they aren't dying to adopt his cultural values and morals (because anything different is evil from his perspective).

And what's most pathetic is that these people call a Chinese place for food and feel like they've been dealt a personal injustice that the person on the other end of the phone doesn't speak perfect English. Yeah, sometimes placing an order is a harrowing experience. But I can't say I've ever felt my liberty was threatened because of it, and I can count the number of times my order was wrong on one hand.

See, that's why multiculturalism is so "dangerous." It's not that it doesn't add richness to our lives. It's that it exposes us to different ways of thought, different ways to do things. And that's really scary, if you're terrified of anything that isn't specifically what you believe.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#81 Feb 06 2014 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
******
27,272 posts
Catwho wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Honestly, English is a terrible language to learn.
Smiley: dubious
English is a grammatically simple language that's much easier to learn than most if not all other languages I know.

English violates its own rules willy-nilly, just because it can. We're allowed to make up new words in English whenever we feel like it, and if they get popular enough the OED might even make them official. We rob other languages of their words for fun.
Have you tried learning French? There are too **** many exceptions of grammar rules and exceptions of exceptions, German has the whole different cases or whatever it's called. It's a royal pain anyway and Finnish has even more of them, impossible to learn language that is (though it sounds nice).

English mainly has a crapload of words but you can learn those gradually and still make perfect sense.

And every language steals words from others left and right, **** "selfie" is in the Dutch dictionaries now.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#82 Feb 06 2014 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
gbaji must be a real killjoy on It's a Small World ride.

Just to keep you honest gbaji, (as you're already apparently a bit loco) can you please cite some evidence that supports your theory that non-English speaking immigrants to the US are unwilling to learn English?

plz.


I mean, to be fair, there are people who see no particular reason to learn English. Why? Because they live in areas of the US where it's not needed. They have access to services and systems that allow them to live just fine using the language they know already. The more diverse an area becomes, the higher its capability to support those groups becomes. You end up with more ethnic groceries with multilingual staff, you end up with restaurants that are fully capable of taking orders in other languages, you probably even have access to news sources (at least for state and federal news) in your language. And then you can often get local news in your own language through local groups, like churches or other community organizations.
Nice hypothesis. I'll ask you also, is there any evidence that supports it?

I would expect rather quick proficiency in English, for young people at least as they're so bombarded with it now with the internet, cell/smart phones etc. - even if native language continues to be the main one used in the home.

Also, has the number of these non-english speaking immigrants that simply see no reason to 'assimilate' themselves and/or learn to speak passing english grown disproportionately to the total number of non-english speaking immigrants?

There are a lot of claims being made in this thread - not a single piece of evidence that supports any of them.

____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#83 Feb 06 2014 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Catwho wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Honestly, English is a terrible language to learn.
Smiley: dubious
English is a grammatically simple language that's much easier to learn than most if not all other languages I know.

English violates its own rules willy-nilly, just because it can. We're allowed to make up new words in English whenever we feel like it, and if they get popular enough the OED might even make them official. We rob other languages of their words for fun.
Have you tried learning French? There are too **** many exceptions of grammar rules and exceptions of exceptions, German has the whole different cases or whatever it's called. It's a royal pain anyway and Finnish has even more of them, impossible to learn language that is (though it sounds nice).

English mainly has a crapload of words but you can learn those gradually and still make perfect sense.

And every language steals words from others left and right, **** "selfie" is in the Dutch dictionaries now.
Selfie is the first entry in my Earth Language Dictionary.

Maybe the global language should be called Terran, or Giaish???




Edited, Feb 6th 2014 5:06pm by Elinda
____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#84 Feb 06 2014 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
******
27,272 posts
I vote for calling it ****** speak cause you know only annoying things are going to end up in that dictionary.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#85 Feb 06 2014 at 10:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Have you tried learning French?
Yes. Then midway through learning it my French teacher decided she wanted to run off with a truck driver. I'm not sure any of us learned a thing that last year. Smiley: lol

Then in college switched to Chinese, and that was much more enjoyable.

Elinda wrote:
There are a lot of claims being made in this thread - not a single piece of evidence that supports any of them.
How about appealing to friends we have and making claims that no one can verify? Because I know several immigrants through work (seriously, we don't do our own Science in this country anymore), and they all wish they knew more English. Out of the ones who have kids, the kids universally know more English than their parents.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#86 Feb 06 2014 at 10:14 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I vote for calling it ****** speak cause you know only annoying things are going to end up in that dictionary.

I fear everyone would just talk s l o w e r if you said '****** speak'.

I like Terran myself. We really need to decide on a global language though - before the 'encounter'.
____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#87 Feb 06 2014 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I mean, to be fair, there are people who see no particular reason to learn English. Why? Because they live in areas of the US where it's not needed. They have access to services and systems that allow them to live just fine using the language they know already. The more diverse an area becomes, the higher its capability to support those groups becomes. You end up with more ethnic groceries with multilingual staff, you end up with restaurants that are fully capable of taking orders in other languages, you probably even have access to news sources (at least for state and federal news) in your language. And then you can often get local news in your own language through local groups, like churches or other community organizations.

This is true, but it doesn't create a lasting problem since subsequent generations are picking up English just as fast, if not faster, than previous generations. So, again, the "permanent enclave resident" issue isn't a realistic one. A neighborhood may remain Spanish but people from specific generations will move out and in "real" English society.

One thing that is happening is that businesses realize that brown people have money too and targeting first generation immigrants in their native tongue is good business. So businesses cater to immigrants outside the strict neighborhoods where all the signs are in Spanish*. Even in the "English" parts of town you see bus advertisements in Spanish and have to pick between two or three languages on the ATM or see "Habla Espanol" on a car dealership sign. And this is what really drives the xenophobes insane. They point to a banking ATM as evidence that American society is crumbling and new immigrants don't have to learn English -- but those ATMs are there to appeal to first generation immigrants and have no effect on traditional rates of language assimilation.

The real irony here is that these are all free market decisions. There's no leftist conspiracy here, there's capitalistic ventures saying "We can make extra cash by putting a Spanish language option on our phone menus." Companies are looking at a demographic and saying "Let's get their money by catering to them" and it drives some people absolutely bonkers because now that Spanish language Swiffer billboard means American culture is under attack. The real concern here isn't that future generations won't learn English; that worry has been completely debunked. No, the real concern is that they have to see the signs of an emerging non-white population from a non-English speaking homeland moving outside of the previously safe ghetto boundaries.

*Or Chinese, Polish, etc but let's be honest and say no one is really throwing a fit about the "Mówimy Po Polsku" signs at the currency exchange.

Edited, Feb 6th 2014 10:27am by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#88 Feb 06 2014 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,841 posts
Elinda wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Elinda wrote:
gbaji must be a real killjoy on It's a Small World ride.

Just to keep you honest gbaji, (as you're already apparently a bit loco) can you please cite some evidence that supports your theory that non-English speaking immigrants to the US are unwilling to learn English?

plz.


I mean, to be fair, there are people who see no particular reason to learn English. Why? Because they live in areas of the US where it's not needed. They have access to services and systems that allow them to live just fine using the language they know already. The more diverse an area becomes, the higher its capability to support those groups becomes. You end up with more ethnic groceries with multilingual staff, you end up with restaurants that are fully capable of taking orders in other languages, you probably even have access to news sources (at least for state and federal news) in your language. And then you can often get local news in your own language through local groups, like churches or other community organizations.
Nice hypothesis. I'll ask you also, is there any evidence that supports it?

I would expect rather quick proficiency in English, for young people at least as they're so bombarded with it now with the internet, cell/smart phones etc. - even if native language continues to be the main one used in the home.

Also, has the number of these non-english speaking immigrants that simply see no reason to 'assimilate' themselves and/or learn to speak passing english grown disproportionately to the total number of non-english speaking immigrants?

There are a lot of claims being made in this thread - not a single piece of evidence that supports any of them.



I didn't make any argument about population/percentages increasing or decreasing? I only said that it's becoming increasingly common for minority populations to form communities outside of cities. Or maybe that's a trend specific to NJ, which is fully possible, but there are plenty of large Asian, Indian, Middle-Eastern and South/Central American communities that have appeared and grown here in the past few decades.

To be clear, I meant that almost exclusively for immigrants, not children living or born here. Kids tend to naturally learn English super quickly without any effort. The coworker I mentioned earlier in the thread? Her small daughter speaks English just as well as Arabic, even though they almost exclusively speak Arabic at home, because her live-in grandmother (who watches her during the day) speaks no English.

She picked it up from television, listening to her parents when they're out or on the phone, when her sister is talking to friends, etc.

I also think that's a big part of how these communities survive. Kids support parents in the instances where they can't communicate, and they increase the population of multilingual peoples in the group.

My only point here is that the areas in which someone can live comfortably without knowing English are growing and becoming less bound to Urban centers.

I didn't make any argument about population. Whether or not it's more or less common for immigrants to speak English, I don't know. I don't even know if the population of immigrants who can speak English is equal to, less than, or greater than what it was 50 years ago.

I just know there are far more areas of the US that a person who can't speak English could comfortably live now than 50 years ago. And I suspect that this drives people like gbaji, with their xenophobic desires for little white, structured suburbs, crazy.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#89 Feb 06 2014 at 10:29 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,841 posts
Quote:

This is true, but it doesn't create a lasting problem since subsequent generations are picking up English just as fast, if not faster, than previous generations. So, again, the "permanent enclave resident" issue isn't a realistic one. A neighborhood may remain Spanish but people from specific generations will move out and in "real" English society.


I agree completely. I was just trying to point out that immigrants exist who don't have a desire to learn English, because they're living in cultural communities that enable them to live without English.

Which ties into your free market observation - these people have money to spend, and the more places enabling access, the more places they may visit.

Their kids absolutely tend to learn English, very quickly. And I'm guessing kids who move here from foreign nations learn English more now than they used to (though I don't have statistics), I'm just judging by the fact that things like ESL courses are more common.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#90 Feb 06 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I didn't make any argument about population/percentages increasing or decreasing? I only said that it's becoming increasingly common for minority populations to form communities outside of cities. Or maybe that's a trend specific to NJ, which is fully possible, but there are plenty of large Asian, Indian, Middle-Eastern and South/Central American communities that have appeared and grown here in the past few decades.
I read something like that on the CNN site not too long ago. They were focusing on NY/NJ in-particular and how more and more the traditional ethic communities in the cities are being priced out, leaving them not much more than refuges for people who have money and want more international cuisine on the menu.

IIRC the trend isn't limited to your area, but you're certainly the best case of it.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#91 Feb 06 2014 at 10:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I didn't make any argument about population/percentages increasing or decreasing? I only said that it's becoming increasingly common for minority populations to form communities outside of cities. Or maybe that's a trend specific to NJ, which is fully possible, but there are plenty of large Asian, Indian, Middle-Eastern and South/Central American communities that have appeared and grown here in the past few decades.

Immigrant groups have always formed enclaves where it was comfortable for them. I think you may be seeing more of them outside of the cities because there just isn't enough available real estate in the cities to form a comfortably large new Pakistani or Vietnamese or whatever neighborhood. Plus property costs and all that and so they just congregate in a suburban area instead.

But it's nothing truly new. For as much as we imagine urban groups of Irish, Italian, Chinese, Slavic, etc neighborhoods, there was also large ethnic enclaves of Swedes and Germans in the rural upper Midwest and things like that. I had a friend back in 80's whose family would take me on a weekend trip into Wisconsin to some town that was 100% Swedish. Signs, language, food, etc. It was like going to another country just as much as going to Chinatown or a Spanish neighborhood.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#92 Feb 06 2014 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
******
43,849 posts
The problem is that once the minority stops being a minority they'll need a new politically correct term to label and demonize them with. Smiley: frown

Edited, Feb 6th 2014 11:37am by lolgaxe
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#93 Feb 06 2014 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I agree completely. I was just trying to point out that immigrants exist who don't have a desire to learn English, because they're living in cultural communities that enable them to live without English.

That's always been the case though. Chinese people immigrated to Chinatown and Greeks immigrated to Greektown and Italians to Little Italy for a reason. Because it was easy to live there without the need to speak/read English. Some did, sure. Maybe even a majority learned passable fluency. But the ethnic enclave was always a place for comfort in culture and language and you could get groceries or buy a new kitchen table without stumbling over unfamiliar words to a ****** off English speaking shop owner.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#94 Feb 06 2014 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
The problem is that once the minority stops being a minority they'll need a new politically correct term to label and demonize them with. Smiley: frown
Some are already playing the "we're persecuted!" card as a majority. I can't imagine that'll let up as the numbers shrink.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#95 Feb 06 2014 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
Avatar
****
4,322 posts
Around 40 seconds it looked like they MIGHT have implied there were two *** men with a child however it could just as easily been 2 brothers, 2 friends.

I think some people just need an excuse to stir the pot.
____________________________
Hi
#96 Feb 06 2014 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,841 posts
Children should be with the women. Smiley: motz
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#97 Feb 06 2014 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*****
11,278 posts
someproteinguy wrote:
Children should be with the women. Smiley: motz


Who says that the two guys weren't post-op?
____________________________
Shaowstrike (Retired - FFXI)
91PUP/BLM 86SMN/BST 76DRK
Cooking/Fishing 100


"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#98 Feb 06 2014 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,030 posts
The US counted almost 12 million foreign immigrants to the US in the last decade. In fact, if anyone cared to check you can see that most of the population growth in the US is from immigration. So sure, there are more first gen immigrants around and in fact they make up a larger percentage of over-all population since the waves of immigrants we say just after the turn of last century.

Idiggory wrote:
I just know....
You don't know nothing Jon Snow.

____________________________
Alma wrote:
Post and be happy!
#99 Feb 06 2014 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
*****
19,841 posts
Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I agree completely. I was just trying to point out that immigrants exist who don't have a desire to learn English, because they're living in cultural communities that enable them to live without English.

That's always been the case though. Chinese people immigrated to Chinatown and Greeks immigrated to Greektown and Italians to Little Italy for a reason. Because it was easy to live there without the need to speak/read English. Some did, sure. Maybe even a majority learned passable fluency. But the ethnic enclave was always a place for comfort in culture and language and you could get groceries or buy a new kitchen table without stumbling over unfamiliar words to a ****** off English speaking shop owner.


I know, all I really wanted to point out is that these cultural enclaves are more visible to the typical American now, because of the impression that they're "invading." When the cultural enclaves were in the cities, grouped together and largely out of sight by suburbanites, it was easy to partition these groups off from "typical" American suburban culture.

But now that these cultural enclaves are moving into suburbs more frequently, these groups feel threatened by the exposure to the different. Suddenly, they aren't only seeing things perfectly tailored to the suburban white family, they're seeing multiracial advertisements, and multiple language menus, and (god forbid) mosques, synagogues, etc.

The end result is that these people feel their way of life is under attack, because their suburbs aren't perfectly uniform anymore.

It IS true that cultural enclaves have existed in suburbs for a long time. But the trend of attacking those enclaves isn't particularly new. Being a German in the Midwest during WWI, for instance, when they were passing laws to ban the speaking of German.

But because the idea of a suburb has been nationalized, because of nationalized news and media, combined with the higher rate these enclaves are appearing in suburbs, these people feel more under attack.

The reality is that cities are increasingly catering to the upper-middle/upper classes now, instead of lower classes. But the same perception isn't racially drawn along class lines, so these people still belong in Chinatown, not next door.
____________________________
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people

lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
#100 Feb 06 2014 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
these people still belong in Chinatown, not next door.

Racist.

Speaking of houses of worship, we need more folks from India and the like around here. Those dudes make some pretty sweet looking temples.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#101 Feb 06 2014 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
******
20,417 posts
Children also naturally pick up language pronunciation faster than adults, so while an adult language learner might have a better command of vocabulary in the new language, the kid is going to sound better since they mimic the language they hear better. This facilitates overall better communication between the kids and mainstream culture, and their learning accelerates as a result.

The nail salon I go to is run by Vietnamese immigrants. (Pretty common.) The grandma who owns the shop is bilingual, but barely. Her kids (two adults, one youngster) are 100% bilingual, and they are raising the 3rd generation that way as well. Some of the rest of the family members (her son-in-law's father, a cousin, etc) barely speak any English at all. But they don't need to, since her adult kids are always around to translate in a pinch.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and leader of Grammarian Tea House chat LS
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 99 All times are in CDT
TirithRR, tribalfusion009, Anonymous Guests (97)