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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#102 Aug 28 2013 at 3:59 AM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your ***, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.


What if the disorder is "Knowing you are a particular gender"


Mutilating your body wouldn't address that, since your *** would remain the same and your disorder is mental and not physical. Now, if your disorder were that your body naturally CHANGED, then altering your body would be a solution.

How would you resolve a problem with an underweight woman who views herself as overly obese? Would you help her lose more weight? Or would you help her see her true size?
#103 Aug 28 2013 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ***.


I don't know what you've heard, sir, but I'm no ****.

The psychologist would have to wine and dine me before moving on to the feathers-up-my-bum part.
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#104 Aug 28 2013 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ***.


I'm an innocent man trapped inside a guilty man's body. Id like to be treated as such. It's a disorder.
#105 Aug 28 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory


Are you claiming that every transgender has/had a disorder?

SPG wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes


That's what it is all about.


Granted, the stuff you've spewed since you made these comments is even more idiotic, but the point is that regardless of whether or not it is a disorder really doesn't matter for the conversation.

These are people who, generally, have a set of sexual organs that do not match the gender identity they possess. Expression of that gender identity, which is almost universally a transition away from the gender identity they were culturally forced to express while growing up, is the ultimate goal.

For a cis person, you are culturally raised to express your gender identity. For a trans person, you are culturally raised to express a different gender identity. The ultimate goal, here, is to aid someone in transitioning their gender expression to match their gender identity. Normally, this process happens over the course of childhood.

Most trans persons, and a significant portion of the psychologist population, opposed the terminology of GID, as it is not a disorder in the classical sense, and its classification as such brings more harm than simply stigma. But as DSM V was just released, with that terminology unchanged, it's going to continue to be called GID for the forseeable future.

Either way, no licensed psychologist (or one interested in keeping their license) is interested in forcing a trans person into a box. They work with them to teach them to express their gender identity as they see fit, which is something they never learned to do growing up. Some trans persons are interested in fully transitioning to a the feminine end of the gender spectrum. Most hover somewhere in the middle. Many have fluid gender identities that change over time at a pace much more rapid than most.

If a client feels like physical changes are necessary for them to properly express their gender identity, or feel comfortable in their own skin, then they can have access to hormone treatments and SRS.

The point being, therapy isn't about shaming them into anything. It's helping them reach the point of ********** off, I am who I am" with their gender expression that most people manage to achieve through their normal development, as their gender expression isn't so constantly policed.
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#106 Aug 28 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Why are you arguing about something you didn't even bother reading?

I did look over it. I was expecting something specific to GID and got "Sad people might have depressed immune systems". Guess what? Most people in prison are sad. That's sort of one of the primary points to the experience. If they're not, we should be working to rectify that.
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What the @#%^ is "basic treatment".

Here's a pro-tip: If it's not covered by the prison and people need to flip out over it, it's not basic treatment.
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Anti-depressants for depression is also a specific treatment for a specific disorder.

Depression is a wide ranging condition. But I'm all for throwing Manning some Prozac and telling him to keep his chin up for the next 8-35 years. Maybe that'll keep the sad cancers away.
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Unless you're proposing giving tylenol for any ailment

I bet they can get a great deal on it in bulk. Especially if they go for generic acetaminophen.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 7:41am by Jophiel
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#107 Aug 28 2013 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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Generic? You heartless *******!
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#108 Aug 28 2013 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
**** why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.


Hyperbole, shut your stupid mouth.
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And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...


If they are such a threat to society that they are going to go on a killing rampage then they shouldn't leave prison. That's kinda the point of prison. . .duh!

-NW
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#109 Aug 28 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#110 Aug 28 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.



I'll settle with a 10x10 box.

/shrug

-NW
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#111 Aug 28 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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10' x 10' x 6"?
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#112 Aug 28 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
10' x 10' x 6"?

Smiley: lol

The difference between sight and vision.

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#113 Aug 28 2013 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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People that get caught committing crimes end up being sad. Sounds like Nobel Prize winning research.
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#114 Aug 28 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
People that get caught committing crimes end up being sad. Sounds like Nobel Prize winning research.


Oh hey, we should also spare no expense in making sure they are comfortable while we punish them!

-NW
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#115 Aug 28 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes

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#116 Aug 28 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would but I'm waiting for the cis and trans stuff again. Everyone should start their day with a little organic chemistry.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 8:27am by someproteinguy
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#117 Aug 28 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Anti-depressants is supposed to help REMOVE depression, not enhance it. Similarly with schizophrenics. That isn't the case with hormone treatment. If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your ***, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.
The disorder is having a body that doesn't match your gender. Hormones help remove that problem by making the body match the mind.

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Here's a pro-tip: If it's not covered by the prison and people need to flip out over it, it's not basic treatment.
But...it is covered by prisons? ****, remember Michelle Kosilek? The courts decided a $20k surgery needed to be paid for by the state for her. Of course $20k is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they wasted fighting her in court for a decade, so anyone concerned about cost should be in favor just paying for such things for anyone who wants them.

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If they are such a threat to society that they are going to go on a killing rampage then they shouldn't leave prison. That's kinda the point of prison. . .duh!
Weird, based on your previous posts, i would have thought the point of prison was to punish criminals and make them suffer as much as possible. By the way, many people are NOT a threat to society as long as they are medicated. Taking away medications from someone who needs them to remain sane just because they committed some minor crime is just going to cause huge problems where there was none before.
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Oh hey, we should also spare no expense in making sure they are comfortable while we punish them!
Oh, there we are. Obviously we don't need to make them comfortable, but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.

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If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness? Surely you don't really think someone with schizophrenia, or something, should be able to avoid prison just for that reason, even though they were taking medication that prevented all symptoms, do you? If they were sent to a hospital, they would give them their medication, and determine that as long as they continue taking their medication (which they already were, so why would they stop?), they are not a threat to society, and release them a month later.
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#118 Aug 28 2013 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
Oh, there we are. Obviously we don't need to make them comfortable, but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.
And seeing as how the prison wouldn't be what's making Manning uncomfortable, then there's no reason to foot the bill. Problem solved.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 12:06pm by lolgaxe
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#119 Aug 28 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
Anti-depressants is supposed to help REMOVE depression, not enhance it. Similarly with schizophrenics. That isn't the case with hormone treatment. If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your ***, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.
The disorder is having a body that doesn't match your gender. Hormones help remove that problem by making the body match the mind.

I'd make the point here we just don't know how to re-wire the brain in general, so we can't treat the 'disorder' if that's the way people want to phrase it. If you're a male with a brain wired like a female we have no good way to change that. Ideally you could rework everything at that level, but that's not in the toolkit yet. You're left with some rather blunt instruments to deal with the problem, hormones aren't exactly a fine scalpel or anything, and surgery is a much better alternative than suicide.

Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness? Surely you don't really think someone with schizophrenia, or something, should be able to avoid prison just for that reason, even though they were taking medication that prevented all symptoms, do you? If they were sent to a hospital, they would give them their medication, and determine that as long as they continue taking their medication (which they already were, so why would they stop?), they are not a threat to society, and release them a month later.
MOAR DRUGS! Smiley: drunk
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#120 Aug 28 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
But...it is covered by prisons?

Not by the military prison system. Try to keep up and maybe reading the thread before chirping in.
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but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.

It costs remarkably little money to make someone uncomfortable.
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So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness?

(A) I was unaware that "anyone" with a mental illness was a psychotic threat. You have a distorted view of people with mental illnesses to lump them all together like that. Hateful and bigoted, really. Smiley: disappointed
(B) I think you have a rosier picture of mental institutions within the prison system than the reality.
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#121 Aug 28 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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But...it is covered by prisons?
Not this one. Try reading th entire thread next time, as you won't have to ask the question and will already have the answer.

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Of course $20k is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they wasted fighting her in court for a decade, so anyone concerned about cost should be in favor just paying for such things for anyone who wants them.
Not incarcerating people is significantly cheaper than incarcerating people. We shouldn't even have jails!1!!11!!
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#122 Aug 28 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Not incarcerating people is significantly cheaper than incarcerating people. We shouldn't even have jails!1!!11!!

This will lower health care costs since they won't be at risk of contracting sad cancer. Holy ****, the savings just keep growing!!
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#123 Aug 28 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Need more caffeine when incarcerating looks like incinerating.
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#124 Aug 28 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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With today's gas prices, who can afford to incinerate people?
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#125 Aug 28 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Need more caffeine when incarcerating looks like incinerating.
Organic fuel to heat the prison! Smiley: schooled
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#126 Aug 28 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It costs remarkably little money to make someone uncomfortable.
Not in this case. Law suits are expensive.
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