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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#77 Aug 27 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.
The decision, as far as I can tell, is they won't provide it for Manning.

No, they just don't offer it.
Courthouse News Service wrote:
FT. MEADE, Md. (CN) - Though evidence has shown that Bradley Manning has considered living as a woman, the prison likely to hold the WikiLeaks source for decades confirmed that it does not provide hormone therapy or ***-reassignment surgery to inmates.

There has been cases in the civilian court system that resulted in prisons offering hormone treatment. The military system is a separate kettle of fish. You can argue that they should offer it but the current status quo and context for this discussion is that they do not.
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As far as switching him to a woman's prison, why not? I'm making an off-hand guess that it's cheaper to house an inmate in a woman's prison than a mans...and this is all about the money, yes?

(A) Because he's not a woman
(B) Because he's been assigned to a specific prison and I don't know if an equivalent women's prison exists in the military justice system
(C) Because the choice on where to stay out your sentence shouldn't be that of the prisoner nor based on voluntary actions from the prisoner after the fact
(D) It's not "all about the money" at all; I stated earlier my philosophy regarding incarceration.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 9:02am by Jophiel
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#78 Aug 27 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Default
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Aethien wrote:
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.


Wow, this really went over your head. I would think someone who is fighting for LBGT, would understand this. Ever watched X-men when people are trying to "cure" the mutant disease and the response is "There's nothing to cure"? It's the same concept with the homosexual-curing camps. You can't cure something if there is nothing wrong with the person.

You can only classify it a disorder if there is something wrong with the person. So, in this case, if you want to classify GID as a "disorder", then believing that your body and gender are different is the problem. Your *feeling*, which I bold for you, IS the disorder. Every other man, ***, straight, feminine or not, believes that they are a man. For whatever reason, *YOU* (generally speaking) FEEL that you are something else. That is the disorder. The norm is to be like every other man in the world, not a unique snowflake.

If women with or removed penises were the norm, then you would have a point.

idd wrote:
This.

"Treatment" for GID is to help someone with GID transition their lifestyle, and possibly their body, to a level of gender expression that gives them peace of mind.

This actually holds true for most "disorders" associated with psychiatry. You don't "fix" them, you work with the client so they can learn to make the disorder work for them.


Read above.

That's illogical. If your treatment is to make them accept the changes as opposed to reversing them, then how is it a disorder to begin with? You don't do that with eating disorders, drinking addictions, gambling addictions, drug addictions, alcohol addictions, anger issues, depression issues, etc.

If the "treatment" is to support the person's changes as opposed to reversing the changes, then it isn't a disorder.
#79 Aug 27 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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#80 Aug 27 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory
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#81 Aug 27 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.

I mostly came here to respond to this, though:

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
Screenshot


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#82 Aug 27 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.

I mostly came here to respond to this, though:

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
Screenshot




God, I need to stop posting from my phone, I never even saw lolgaxe's picture...
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#83 Aug 27 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes

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#84 Aug 27 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ***.
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#85 Aug 27 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope anyone arguing that she shouldn't have hormones paid for by the state realize they cost like $5-15 per month.
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#86 Aug 27 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Let her pump out some license plates then. Self sufficient! Problem solved!
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#87 Aug 27 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Her physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.
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#88 Aug 27 2013 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
His physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.

"Most certainly"? Probably not. But then I allowed for basic mental health treatment so we're all copacetic regardless.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#89 Aug 27 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
I hope anyone arguing that she shouldn't have hormones paid for by the state realize they cost like $5-15 per month.

How much they cost is quite irrelevant.

It is not on the tax payer to pay for a completely optional procedure.

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#90 Aug 27 2013 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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On the plus side, Rachel can feel free to buy and mail them to Manning's attention, c/o Leavenworth
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#91 Aug 27 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory


Are you claiming that every transgender has/had a disorder?

SPG wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes


That's what it is all about.
#92 Aug 27 2013 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Her physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.

"Most certainly"? Probably not.
It's okay, i know it's hard to google things, so let me help you out: http://bmb.pharma.hr/lauc/NI/303.pdf

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But then I allowed for basic mental health treatment so we're all copacetic regardless.
Well, the treatment here is HRT, so i guess we're in agreement then.

NaughtyWord wrote:
How much they cost is quite irrelevant.

It is not on the tax payer to pay for a completely optional procedure.
It's not irrelevant because the alternative will cost potentially thousands of times more. One way or another, you're going to pay for it. Trying to avoid paying for a $5 medication is just going to get crazy expensive. Between the inevitable law suit (which she'll win), extra costs for suicide watch, anti-depressants, medical care (see above!), therapy, etc etc etc, it'd be cheaper to pay for her entire transition, including hormones, SRS, and plastic surgery.

Jophiel wrote:
On the plus side, Rachel can feel free to buy and mail them to Manning's attention, c/o Leavenworth
Pretty sure they'd be thrown out, and i'd be arrested if i tried that.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 1:19am by Rachel9
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#93 Aug 28 2013 at 12:00 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, an article saying that sometimes depressed people have health issues? Golly, we better make sure no one in prison is sad! They might all get prison cancer!

You realize that nothing there counted as "certainly", right? Or else prison overcrowding would largely take care of itself.

And HRT in this context is a specific treatment for a very specific disorder, not "basic treatment".

So sorry Manning might be sad though. Hope he doesn't catch cancer from it.
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#94 Aug 28 2013 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Hope he doesn't catch cancer from it.


I don't think you are being sincere, for some reason.
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#95 Aug 28 2013 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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You realize that nothing there counted as "certainly", right?
Why are you arguing about something you didn't even bother reading?

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And HRT in this context is a specific treatment for a very specific disorder, not "basic treatment".
What the @#%^ is "basic treatment". Anti-depressants for depression is also a specific treatment for a specific disorder. Yet giving those to prisoners is no problem? How about anti-psychotics for schizophrenics? Unless you're proposing giving tylenol for any ailment, that doesn't really make any sense.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 3:13am by Rachel9
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#96 Aug 28 2013 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
It's not irrelevant because the alternative will cost potentially thousands of times more. One way or another, you're going to pay for it. Trying to avoid paying for a $5 medication is just going to get crazy expensive. Between the inevitable law suit (which she'll win), extra costs for suicide watch, anti-depressants, medical care (see above!), therapy, etc etc etc, it'd be cheaper to pay for her entire transition, including hormones, SRS, and plastic surgery.



Or--as I've pretty much laid out--not treat any of that sh*t.


Prison is prison, not some camp for the mentally dysfunctional to get a free medical bill on the backs of those who obey the law.

I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.

Medicine in prison should be reserved in exception of in extreme cases of life or death. An example would be some sort of malignant cancer.

Otherwise, wait until you are out to seek care.

If that seems awful or unfair, here's a brilliant idea: don't break the law.

-NW


Edited, Aug 27th 2013 11:40pm by NaughtyWord
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#97 Aug 28 2013 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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**** why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.

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I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.
And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 2:50am by Rachel9
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#98 Aug 28 2013 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
**** why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.

Quote:
I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.
And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 2:50am by Rachel9


This is a really weak argument. it's an issue previously settled in favor of the stance you are arguing for, but it's a very weak argument.
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#99 Aug 28 2013 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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If that seems awful or unfair, here's a brilliant idea: don't break the law.


It seems that you're prioritising your desire for punishment over efficacy; not, it seems, out of a conscious decision to do so, which I could kind of respect, but because of a naive belief in the seemingly intuitive position that a 'harder' stance on crime will do more to prevent it and create a more stable society.
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#100Almalieque, Posted: Aug 28 2013 at 2:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You clearly don't understand how the government classifies "basic". You're confusing "basic" with "common" and/or "preferred".
#101 Aug 28 2013 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your ***, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.


What if the disorder is "Knowing you are a particular gender"
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