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Is a sex-change a constitutional right?Follow

#102 Aug 28 2013 at 3:59 AM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your sex, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.


What if the disorder is "Knowing you are a particular gender"


Mutilating your body wouldn't address that, since your sex would remain the same and your disorder is mental and not physical. Now, if your disorder were that your body naturally CHANGED, then altering your body would be a solution.

How would you resolve a problem with an underweight woman who views herself as overly obese? Would you help her lose more weight? Or would you help her see her true size?
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#103 Aug 28 2013 at 4:09 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ass.


I don't know what you've heard, sir, but I'm no slut.

The psychologist would have to wine and dine me before moving on to the feathers-up-my-bum part.
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#104 Aug 28 2013 at 4:16 AM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ass.


I'm an innocent man trapped inside a guilty man's body. Id like to be treated as such. It's a disorder.
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#105 Aug 28 2013 at 6:38 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory


Are you claiming that every transgender has/had a disorder?

SPG wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes


That's what it is all about.


Granted, the stuff you've spewed since you made these comments is even more idiotic, but the point is that regardless of whether or not it is a disorder really doesn't matter for the conversation.

These are people who, generally, have a set of sexual organs that do not match the gender identity they possess. Expression of that gender identity, which is almost universally a transition away from the gender identity they were culturally forced to express while growing up, is the ultimate goal.

For a cis person, you are culturally raised to express your gender identity. For a trans person, you are culturally raised to express a different gender identity. The ultimate goal, here, is to aid someone in transitioning their gender expression to match their gender identity. Normally, this process happens over the course of childhood.

Most trans persons, and a significant portion of the psychologist population, opposed the terminology of GID, as it is not a disorder in the classical sense, and its classification as such brings more harm than simply stigma. But as DSM V was just released, with that terminology unchanged, it's going to continue to be called GID for the forseeable future.

Either way, no licensed psychologist (or one interested in keeping their license) is interested in forcing a trans person into a box. They work with them to teach them to express their gender identity as they see fit, which is something they never learned to do growing up. Some trans persons are interested in fully transitioning to a the feminine end of the gender spectrum. Most hover somewhere in the middle. Many have fluid gender identities that change over time at a pace much more rapid than most.

If a client feels like physical changes are necessary for them to properly express their gender identity, or feel comfortable in their own skin, then they can have access to hormone treatments and SRS.

The point being, therapy isn't about shaming them into anything. It's helping them reach the point of "@#%^ off, I am who I am" with their gender expression that most people manage to achieve through their normal development, as their gender expression isn't so constantly policed.
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#106 Aug 28 2013 at 6:41 AM Rating: Good
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Why are you arguing about something you didn't even bother reading?

I did look over it. I was expecting something specific to GID and got "Sad people might have depressed immune systems". Guess what? Most people in prison are sad. That's sort of one of the primary points to the experience. If they're not, we should be working to rectify that.
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What the @#%^ is "basic treatment".

Here's a pro-tip: If it's not covered by the prison and people need to flip out over it, it's not basic treatment.
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Anti-depressants for depression is also a specific treatment for a specific disorder.

Depression is a wide ranging condition. But I'm all for throwing Manning some Prozac and telling him to keep his chin up for the next 8-35 years. Maybe that'll keep the sad cancers away.
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Unless you're proposing giving tylenol for any ailment

I bet they can get a great deal on it in bulk. Especially if they go for generic acetaminophen.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 7:41am by Jophiel
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#107 Aug 28 2013 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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Generic? You heartless bastard!
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#108 Aug 28 2013 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Hell why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.


Hyperbole, shut your stupid mouth.
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And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...


If they are such a threat to society that they are going to go on a killing rampage then they shouldn't leave prison. That's kinda the point of prison. . .duh!

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#109 Aug 28 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
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#110 Aug 28 2013 at 7:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.



I'll settle with a 10x10 box.

/shrug

-NW
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#111 Aug 28 2013 at 7:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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10' x 10' x 6"?
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#112 Aug 28 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
10' x 10' x 6"?

Smiley: lol

The difference between sight and vision.

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#113 Aug 28 2013 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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People that get caught committing crimes end up being sad. Sounds like Nobel Prize winning research.
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#114 Aug 28 2013 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
People that get caught committing crimes end up being sad. Sounds like Nobel Prize winning research.


Oh hey, we should also spare no expense in making sure they are comfortable while we punish them!

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#115 Aug 28 2013 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes

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#116 Aug 28 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would but I'm waiting for the cis and trans stuff again. Everyone should start their day with a little organic chemistry.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 8:27am by someproteinguy
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#117 Aug 28 2013 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Anti-depressants is supposed to help REMOVE depression, not enhance it. Similarly with schizophrenics. That isn't the case with hormone treatment. If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your sex, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.
The disorder is having a body that doesn't match your gender. Hormones help remove that problem by making the body match the mind.

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Here's a pro-tip: If it's not covered by the prison and people need to flip out over it, it's not basic treatment.
But...it is covered by prisons? Hell, remember Michelle Kosilek? The courts decided a $20k surgery needed to be paid for by the state for her. Of course $20k is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they wasted fighting her in court for a decade, so anyone concerned about cost should be in favor just paying for such things for anyone who wants them.

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If they are such a threat to society that they are going to go on a killing rampage then they shouldn't leave prison. That's kinda the point of prison. . .duh!
Weird, based on your previous posts, i would have thought the point of prison was to punish criminals and make them suffer as much as possible. By the way, many people are NOT a threat to society as long as they are medicated. Taking away medications from someone who needs them to remain sane just because they committed some minor crime is just going to cause huge problems where there was none before.
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Oh hey, we should also spare no expense in making sure they are comfortable while we punish them!
Oh, there we are. Obviously we don't need to make them comfortable, but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.

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If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness? Surely you don't really think someone with schizophrenia, or something, should be able to avoid prison just for that reason, even though they were taking medication that prevented all symptoms, do you? If they were sent to a hospital, they would give them their medication, and determine that as long as they continue taking their medication (which they already were, so why would they stop?), they are not a threat to society, and release them a month later.
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#118 Aug 28 2013 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
Oh, there we are. Obviously we don't need to make them comfortable, but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.
And seeing as how the prison wouldn't be what's making Manning uncomfortable, then there's no reason to foot the bill. Problem solved.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 12:06pm by lolgaxe
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#119 Aug 28 2013 at 10:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rachel9 wrote:
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Anti-depressants is supposed to help REMOVE depression, not enhance it. Similarly with schizophrenics. That isn't the case with hormone treatment. If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your sex, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.
The disorder is having a body that doesn't match your gender. Hormones help remove that problem by making the body match the mind.

I'd make the point here we just don't know how to re-wire the brain in general, so we can't treat the 'disorder' if that's the way people want to phrase it. If you're a male with a brain wired like a female we have no good way to change that. Ideally you could rework everything at that level, but that's not in the toolkit yet. You're left with some rather blunt instruments to deal with the problem, hormones aren't exactly a fine scalpel or anything, and surgery is a much better alternative than suicide.

Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
If someone is psychotic and going to hulk out and run around the prison killing people, the proper place for them is a straitjacket and a padded box.
So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness? Surely you don't really think someone with schizophrenia, or something, should be able to avoid prison just for that reason, even though they were taking medication that prevented all symptoms, do you? If they were sent to a hospital, they would give them their medication, and determine that as long as they continue taking their medication (which they already were, so why would they stop?), they are not a threat to society, and release them a month later.
MOAR DRUGS! Smiley: drunk
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#120 Aug 28 2013 at 10:31 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
But...it is covered by prisons?

Not by the military prison system. Try to keep up and maybe reading the thread before chirping in.
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but we shouldn't be wasting money making sure they are as uncomfortable as possible either.

It costs remarkably little money to make someone uncomfortable.
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So...Get out of jail free card for anyone with a mental illness?

(A) I was unaware that "anyone" with a mental illness was a psychotic threat. You have a distorted view of people with mental illnesses to lump them all together like that. Hateful and bigoted, really. Smiley: disappointed
(B) I think you have a rosier picture of mental institutions within the prison system than the reality.
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#121 Aug 28 2013 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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But...it is covered by prisons?
Not this one. Try reading th entire thread next time, as you won't have to ask the question and will already have the answer.

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Of course $20k is a drop in the bucket compared to the money they wasted fighting her in court for a decade, so anyone concerned about cost should be in favor just paying for such things for anyone who wants them.
Not incarcerating people is significantly cheaper than incarcerating people. We shouldn't even have jails!1!!11!!
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#122 Aug 28 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Not incarcerating people is significantly cheaper than incarcerating people. We shouldn't even have jails!1!!11!!

This will lower health care costs since they won't be at risk of contracting sad cancer. Holy sh*t, the savings just keep growing!!
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#123 Aug 28 2013 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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Need more caffeine when incarcerating looks like incinerating.
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With today's gas prices, who can afford to incinerate people?
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#125 Aug 28 2013 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Need more caffeine when incarcerating looks like incinerating.
Organic fuel to heat the prison! Smiley: schooled
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#126 Aug 28 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Decent
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It costs remarkably little money to make someone uncomfortable.
Not in this case. Law suits are expensive.
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#127 Aug 28 2013 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Incinerate the lawyers. Lawsuits will be much cheaper then.
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#128 Aug 28 2013 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Not by the military prison system. Try to keep up and maybe reading the thread before chirping in.
Are we really deciding what counts as basic treatment on a prison by prison basis?
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#129 Aug 28 2013 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
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Not by the military prison system. Try to keep up and maybe reading the thread before chirping in.
Are we really deciding what counts as basic treatment on a prison by prison basis?

You ask a lot of questions that are already answered. Have you considered reading the entire thread, thoroughly?
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#130 Aug 28 2013 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are we really deciding what counts as basic treatment on a prison by prison basis?

On a system by system basis, absolutely. The military prison system being a separate entity from the civilian prison system. One of those things you sign on for when you pledge the oath and agree to join the armed forces.
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#131 Aug 28 2013 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Right, your conversation is boring.

Can someone tell me why it is that a person who believes him-/herself to be of another gender is given a sex change, when someone who believes he/she can fly isn't given wings? I mean, seriously, why not? If I told people that I believe myself to be a peacock, people would call me a @#%^ing lunatic, but if I told them that I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, they'd pat me on the back and chip in for a sex change. What gives?

Also, if I do believe that I'm a peacock, could I get out of jail by having wing and beak surgery and demanding a transfer to an aviary?

Anyone?
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#132 Aug 28 2013 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Can someone tell me why it is that a person who believes him-/herself to be of another gender is given a sex change, when someone who believes he/she can fly isn't given wings?
We can't rewire the brain to work in a more "normal" manner. So instead we rework the body to match the brain. Not the best of solutions perhaps, but given the high rate of suicide associated with GID it's much better than doing nothing. I'm also going with the understanding that the surgery is not a common treatment method, and many people never go that far.

Linky Never mind, they actually have the whole article available for free for once. Smiley: rolleyes

As for whether or not any of this is a treatment that should be paid for with taxes, well that's still debatable as you can see.

Also, if you can make me fly with wings stop holding out. I have hired goons you know... Smiley: mad

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 10:45am by someproteinguy
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#133 Aug 28 2013 at 11:40 AM Rating: Good
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I feel like a god in a mortal's body. So you science folks and tax payers get to work on those sacrifices at the very least.
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#134 Aug 28 2013 at 11:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I feel like a god in a mortal's body. So you science folks and tax payers get to work on those sacrifices at the very least.
We're working on it. God module development is running frustratingly behind schedule. Smiley: frown

In the meantime I recommend playing SIMS, or similar games.


Edited, Aug 28th 2013 10:44am by someproteinguy
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#135 Aug 28 2013 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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I'm going to demand that I feel like a free man in an imprisoned man's body and they need to make my body match my mind or else they're bigots 'n stuff.

It's fool-proof!
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#136 Aug 28 2013 at 11:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Mazra wrote:
Right, your conversation is boring.

Can someone tell me why it is that a person who believes him-/herself to be of another gender is given a sex change, when someone who believes he/she can fly isn't given wings? I mean, seriously, why not? If I told people that I believe myself to be a peacock, people would call me a @#%^ing lunatic, but if I told them that I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, they'd pat me on the back and chip in for a sex change. What gives?

Also, if I do believe that I'm a peacock, could I get out of jail by having wing and beak surgery and demanding a transfer to an aviary?

Anyone?
Okay, so here's the thing. Unlike someone believing they can fly, when a trans person says they are a certain gender, they don't just believe it to be true, it actually is true. Gender is not determined by genitals, or x/y chromosomes. It is determined completely independent of sex. Now, one reason a sex change is often necessary in this case is because such people ARE treated like lunatics otherwise. It is the only way to get society to treat you as they would anyone else with the same gender.
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#137 Aug 28 2013 at 11:52 AM Rating: Good
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Prove Mazra really isn't a peacock in a human body. Or I'm not really a god in a mortal body.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 1:53pm by lolgaxe
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#138 Aug 28 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I have hired goons you know... Smiley: mad


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#139 Aug 28 2013 at 11:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Prove Mazra really isn't a peacock in a human body. Or I'm not really a god in a mortal body.
You may well be, I better stay safe. Smiley: tinfoilhat

Now if people with delusions of grandeur (or delusions of peacock-ness?) committed suicide at an alarming rate, someone would be paying people like me to find solutions for you.
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#140 Aug 28 2013 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Got to love the Gbaji/Alma style slippery slope arguments. Are you going to talk about marrying goats and toasters next?
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#141 Aug 28 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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Can I marry a goat if I'm a goat in a human body?

What if we're gay goats?
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#142 Aug 28 2013 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Can I marry a goat if I'm a goat in a human body?
No. You're in the process of being digested.
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#143 Aug 28 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Now if people with delusions of grandeur (or delusions of peacock-ness?) committed suicide at an alarming rate, someone would be paying people like me to find solutions for you.
You scientists stink. My mild schizophrenia caused by post traumatic stress disorder causes a generally positive effect on my life and it doesn't deserve so much as a second look. Smiley: glare
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#144 Aug 28 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Now if people with delusions of grandeur (or delusions of peacock-ness?) committed suicide at an alarming rate, someone would be paying people like me to find solutions for you.
You scientists stink. My mild schizophrenia caused by post traumatic stress disorder causes a generally positive effect on my life and it doesn't deserve so much as a second look. Smiley: glare
Well we're always for hire if there's something else you'd like us to look at. $75/hour and I'll suck the proteins out of just about anything and fling them into oscillating electrical field for you.
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#145 Aug 28 2013 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
$75/hour and I'll suck the proteins out
Cheaper than a hooker!
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#146 Aug 28 2013 at 12:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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$75/hour and I'll suck the proteins out
Cheaper than a hooker!
We're cheaper than a disturbing number of jobs, that being only one of the more disturbing.

It's always good to know your value to society. Smiley: rolleyes
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#147 Aug 28 2013 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'll pay the $75, but I can't guarantee the hour.
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#148 Aug 28 2013 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Can I marry a goat if I'm a goat in a human body?

What if we're gay goats?


Not in Russia!

Oh, snap.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 10:26pm by Mazra
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#149 Aug 28 2013 at 2:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
I'll pay the $75, but I can't guarantee the hour.
That's fine, I generally try to multitask during these kinds of things anyway.
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#151 Aug 28 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well you have to cut corners somewhere if you want to keep costs down, it's a competitive marketplace. Besides those government clients aren't paying out like they used to.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 1:21pm by someproteinguy
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