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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#52 Aug 25 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
Are you opposed to all mental health treatment in prisons, or are you just opposed to the idea of GID as a legitimate mental health issue?

I'm rather conservative about prison in general and my basic instinct is "***** 'em, next time try not breaking the law." I have little concerns with prison being punitive. In my opinion, most medical treatment in prison should serve to stabilize the issue -- for instance, dental issues should be handled in the least expensive manner, extraction and perhaps bridgework rather than implants or veneers. If you manage to infect your legs with gangrene and it needs to be cut off, we'll give you a nicely polished peg to hop around on; you're free to buy a high quality prosthetic when you get out. Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion. He's sad he's not in a girl's body? Give him some antidepressants and work duty to have something else to think about. That sound unfair? Next time, try staying out of prison and you can get all the extra stuff you want in the open and free world. Name me another mental health concern and I'll have the same opinion.

I would say that I do not, at all, believe that he should ever be eligible to change prisons or wings on account of his desired gender. He can call himself a girl all he wants in the same prison he was assigned to as a man. Prison assignments shouldn't be based on what the prisoner wants.
idoggry wrote:
So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote...

No, but I suppose I don't care enough to debate it. If you want to say there's nothing special about it, no skin off my nose.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 4:58pm by Jophiel
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#53 Aug 25 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Saying that he should be given treatments means that those treatments should be available for prisoners.

They're not. You're asking for the rules to be changed using Manning as the catalyst. That's special treatment. Calling me Gbaji won't make that any less true.


Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote. And the mentally disabled got special treatment when we founded mental care facilities, instead of just tossing them in prison. And the gays are getting special treatment by asking for marriage. And Rosa Parks got special treatment when Blacks had more of their civil rights recognized.


If you honestly don't believe that people don't claim "temporary insanity" to get out of and/or reduce their sentence, then you're simply a fool. As I argued in other topics, no matter your social status, if there exist a way to cheat the system, people will find a way to do it. PERIOD.
#54 Aug 25 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
Are you opposed to all mental health treatment in prisons, or are you just opposed to the idea of GID as a legitimate mental health issue?
I'm rather conservative about prison in general and my basic instinct is "***** 'em, next time try not breaking the law." I have little concerns with prison being punitive. In my opinion, most medical treatment in prison should serve to stabilize the issue -- for instance, dental issues should be handled in the least expensive manner, extraction and perhaps bridgework rather than implants or veneers. If you manage to infect your legs with gangrene and it needs to be cut off, we'll give you a nicely polished peg to hop around on; you're free to buy a high quality prosthetic when you get out. Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion. He's sad he's not in a girl's body? Give him some antidepressants and work duty to have something else to think about. That sound unfair? Next time, try staying out of prison and you can get all the extra stuff you want in the open and free world. Name me another mental health concern and I'll have the same opinion.
Fair enough. Can't say I agree with your position, but at least I understand it better. Thanks.
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#55 Aug 25 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Never seen Joph troll before, it's actually very entertaining.
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#56 Aug 25 2013 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

No, but I suppose I don't care enough to debate it. If you want to say there's nothing special about it, no skin off my nose.


Works for me.

Honestly, most of this boils down to our incompatible ideas regarding what prison should be. That's fine. I understand why you'd be attracted to your position, and I'm confident you can understand why I'd be attracted to mine.

With little need for explanation, and less potential for changing the others position, there's not much that can come out of this conversation anyway. Especially if we're going to be having a conversation about different philosophies of justice, but by proxy through Manning. Smiley: lol
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#57 Aug 25 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm confident you can understand why I'd be attracted to mine.

'Cause you're a WUSS! Smiley: grin
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#58 Aug 25 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
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#59 Aug 25 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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What Joph said X #of Joph's posts in this thread.
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#60 Aug 25 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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jophiel wrote:
Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion.


This.
#61 Aug 25 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
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#62 Aug 25 2013 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote. And the mentally disabled got special treatment when we founded mental care facilities, instead of just tossing them in prison. And the gays are getting special treatment by asking for marriage. And Rosa Parks got special treatment when Blacks had more of their civil rights recognized.


The chief difference here is Rosa Parks, gays, wimminz, mentally ill, and blacks weren't in prison for espionage when doing what they did to get their rights.

Rights can and should be taken away from people in prison. We've got a legal framework to do so: trial by jury of peers.

I share Joph's overall point of view, if you don't like going to prison, having your rights taken from you, and thereby limiting what you can choose, here's a brilliant idea; quit breaking the law.


-NW
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#63 Aug 25 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Deny him what he wants, if he doesn't like it he can just off himself in prison. It is the least his worthless *** can do for us.
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#64 Aug 26 2013 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Of course it's worth debating. If it was $5,000 in federal tax dollars going for building crosses on courthouses or ***-conversion therapies it would be a "mere pittance in the pot" and yet still worth debating.

In this case, treatment for it would necessitate a different prison than the one he is assigned to (or likely to be). He can seek all the *** conversion therapy he wants when he's out of Leavenworth. I'm sure Wikileaks will foot the bill for him.

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can be detrimental to themselves and others.

He's already been detrimental to the United States of America. Which is why he can wait 8-35 years to get his completely voluntary, non-life saving treatments. Boy, it's almost as though there's consequences for espionage, huh?

Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses that have known successful treatment, then yes I don't think it's worth debating. I'm don't think it's political and I don't like the idea of a public vote determining what illnesses it deems worthy for treatment.

The psychologist's can debate it. They're qualified. I suspect they did.
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#65 Aug 26 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Let him get insurance and petition them to pay for it.
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#66 Aug 26 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses...

The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.
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#67 Aug 26 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses that have known successful treatment, then yes I don't think it's worth debating.


If you're saying that he has a gender disorder, changing his gender isn't treatment. That's like giving alcohol to an alcoholic because he's depressed without it. Treatment would be him accepting his male gender/***. Else, it isn't an "illness". At which point, there's no need to support his request.


No one is denying clinical treatment, just his personal preference of clinical treatment. If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
#68 Aug 26 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.
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#69 Aug 26 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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#70 Aug 26 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
GOD IS EVIL! Smiley: mad

That's a terrible idea that has no place in a secula...

...

...

Nope can't fake it. Smiley: frown

So how far is Manning down this path anyway? Since you don't just walk into a doctor's office, say "I wanna be a girl", and they snip off your giblets for you.
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#71 Aug 26 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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It depends on the surgeon, but in the US the minimum (though this could be state specific) is 2 years living as the opposite gender, a GID diagnosis from 2 different psychologists (each of which are NOT going to diagnose you without at least a year of sessions). But they each have to rule that you're emotionally stable enough to go through the surgery.

The absolute best-case scenario is 2 years. In reality, it takes WAY longer than that. The stability requirement can often prove problematic, because the surgery itself can cause immense emotional excitement. And even if it's something you really want, anything that emotional can cause huge amounts of stress and mood swings (as I'm sure plenty of people who have gotten married, had kids, etc. can testify to).

In the classes I had at RU that spoke about the process, 5 years was the approximate average time for someone actively pursuing it. I don't have actual proof of that, and it's off the top of my head, but that's what I remember.
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#72 Aug 27 2013 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
So how far is Manning down this path anyway? Since you don't just walk into a doctor's office, say "I wanna be a girl", and they snip off your giblets for you.
You have to go through a few years of hormone therapy before you get to the snipping part anyway, if you even decide to go through with the operation (although that's much more successful for MtF than for FtM so most trans men don't).
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#73 Aug 27 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.


someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
GOD IS EVIL! Smiley: mad

That's a terrible idea that has no place in a secula...

...

...

Nope can't fake it. Smiley: frown



I know that you're being facetious, but part of the Chaplain's job is basic therapy. If you go to the Chaplain with an issue, s/he shouldn't throw religion down your throat, unless you welcome it.
#74 Aug 27 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.
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#75 Aug 27 2013 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.


This.

"Treatment" for GID is to help someone with GID transition their lifestyle, and possibly their body, to a level of gender expression that gives them peace of mind.

This actually holds true for most "disorders" associated with psychiatry. You don't "fix" them, you work with the client so they can learn to make the disorder work for them.
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#76 Aug 27 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses...

The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.

The decision, as far as I can tell, is they won't provide it for Manning. I wonder how they've already had sufficient diagnosis to make a public statement that they wont' be treating this illness. I've not found anything stating that GID is specifically a non-treatable ailment within the prison system. Other prisons have allowed it's treatment.

I suspect it's a decision made to appease the public and not based on good medical evaluation.

As far as switching him to a woman's prison, why not? I'm making an off-hand guess that it's cheaper to house an inmate in a woman's prison than a mans...and this is all about the money, yes?
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