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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#52 Aug 25 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
Are you opposed to all mental health treatment in prisons, or are you just opposed to the idea of GID as a legitimate mental health issue?

I'm rather conservative about prison in general and my basic instinct is "***** 'em, next time try not breaking the law." I have little concerns with prison being punitive. In my opinion, most medical treatment in prison should serve to stabilize the issue -- for instance, dental issues should be handled in the least expensive manner, extraction and perhaps bridgework rather than implants or veneers. If you manage to infect your legs with gangrene and it needs to be cut off, we'll give you a nicely polished peg to hop around on; you're free to buy a high quality prosthetic when you get out. Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion. He's sad he's not in a girl's body? Give him some antidepressants and work duty to have something else to think about. That sound unfair? Next time, try staying out of prison and you can get all the extra stuff you want in the open and free world. Name me another mental health concern and I'll have the same opinion.

I would say that I do not, at all, believe that he should ever be eligible to change prisons or wings on account of his desired gender. He can call himself a girl all he wants in the same prison he was assigned to as a man. Prison assignments shouldn't be based on what the prisoner wants.
idoggry wrote:
So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote...

No, but I suppose I don't care enough to debate it. If you want to say there's nothing special about it, no skin off my nose.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 4:58pm by Jophiel
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#53 Aug 25 2013 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Saying that he should be given treatments means that those treatments should be available for prisoners.

They're not. You're asking for the rules to be changed using Manning as the catalyst. That's special treatment. Calling me Gbaji won't make that any less true.


Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote. And the mentally disabled got special treatment when we founded mental care facilities, instead of just tossing them in prison. And the gays are getting special treatment by asking for marriage. And Rosa Parks got special treatment when Blacks had more of their civil rights recognized.


If you honestly don't believe that people don't claim "temporary insanity" to get out of and/or reduce their sentence, then you're simply a fool. As I argued in other topics, no matter your social status, if there exist a way to cheat the system, people will find a way to do it. PERIOD.
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#54 Aug 25 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
Are you opposed to all mental health treatment in prisons, or are you just opposed to the idea of GID as a legitimate mental health issue?
I'm rather conservative about prison in general and my basic instinct is "***** 'em, next time try not breaking the law." I have little concerns with prison being punitive. In my opinion, most medical treatment in prison should serve to stabilize the issue -- for instance, dental issues should be handled in the least expensive manner, extraction and perhaps bridgework rather than implants or veneers. If you manage to infect your legs with gangrene and it needs to be cut off, we'll give you a nicely polished peg to hop around on; you're free to buy a high quality prosthetic when you get out. Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion. He's sad he's not in a girl's body? Give him some antidepressants and work duty to have something else to think about. That sound unfair? Next time, try staying out of prison and you can get all the extra stuff you want in the open and free world. Name me another mental health concern and I'll have the same opinion.
Fair enough. Can't say I agree with your position, but at least I understand it better. Thanks.
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#55 Aug 25 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Never seen Joph troll before, it's actually very entertaining.
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#56 Aug 25 2013 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

No, but I suppose I don't care enough to debate it. If you want to say there's nothing special about it, no skin off my nose.


Works for me.

Honestly, most of this boils down to our incompatible ideas regarding what prison should be. That's fine. I understand why you'd be attracted to your position, and I'm confident you can understand why I'd be attracted to mine.

With little need for explanation, and less potential for changing the others position, there's not much that can come out of this conversation anyway. Especially if we're going to be having a conversation about different philosophies of justice, but by proxy through Manning. Smiley: lol
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#57 Aug 25 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm confident you can understand why I'd be attracted to mine.

'Cause you're a WUSS! Smiley: grin
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#58 Aug 25 2013 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
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#59 Aug 25 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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What Joph said X #of Joph's posts in this thread.
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#60 Aug 25 2013 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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jophiel wrote:
Likewise, mental issues should be handled with therapy and at most medication to stabilize the issue. Hormone and ***-reassignment go well beyond that in my opinion.


This.
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#61 Aug 25 2013 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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#62 Aug 25 2013 at 8:38 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:


Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote. And the mentally disabled got special treatment when we founded mental care facilities, instead of just tossing them in prison. And the gays are getting special treatment by asking for marriage. And Rosa Parks got special treatment when Blacks had more of their civil rights recognized.


The chief difference here is Rosa Parks, gays, wimminz, mentally ill, and blacks weren't in prison for espionage when doing what they did to get their rights.

Rights can and should be taken away from people in prison. We've got a legal framework to do so: trial by jury of peers.

I share Joph's overall point of view, if you don't like going to prison, having your rights taken from you, and thereby limiting what you can choose, here's a brilliant idea; quit breaking the law.


-NW
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#63 Aug 25 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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Deny him what he wants, if he doesn't like it he can just off himself in prison. It is the least his worthless *** can do for us.
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#64 Aug 26 2013 at 5:47 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Of course it's worth debating. If it was $5,000 in federal tax dollars going for building crosses on courthouses or ***-conversion therapies it would be a "mere pittance in the pot" and yet still worth debating.

In this case, treatment for it would necessitate a different prison than the one he is assigned to (or likely to be). He can seek all the *** conversion therapy he wants when he's out of Leavenworth. I'm sure Wikileaks will foot the bill for him.

Quote:
can be detrimental to themselves and others.

He's already been detrimental to the United States of America. Which is why he can wait 8-35 years to get his completely voluntary, non-life saving treatments. Boy, it's almost as though there's consequences for espionage, huh?

Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses that have known successful treatment, then yes I don't think it's worth debating. I'm don't think it's political and I don't like the idea of a public vote determining what illnesses it deems worthy for treatment.

The psychologist's can debate it. They're qualified. I suspect they did.
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#65 Aug 26 2013 at 7:21 AM Rating: Good
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Let him get insurance and petition them to pay for it.
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#66 Aug 26 2013 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses...

The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.
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#67 Aug 26 2013 at 2:26 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses that have known successful treatment, then yes I don't think it's worth debating.


If you're saying that he has a gender disorder, changing his gender isn't treatment. That's like giving alcohol to an alcoholic because he's depressed without it. Treatment would be him accepting his male gender/***. Else, it isn't an "illness". At which point, there's no need to support his request.


No one is denying clinical treatment, just his personal preference of clinical treatment. If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
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#68 Aug 26 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.
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#69 Aug 26 2013 at 5:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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#70 Aug 26 2013 at 6:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
GOD IS EVIL! Smiley: mad

That's a terrible idea that has no place in a secula...

...

...

Nope can't fake it. Smiley: frown

So how far is Manning down this path anyway? Since you don't just walk into a doctor's office, say "I wanna be a girl", and they snip off your giblets for you.
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#71 Aug 26 2013 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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It depends on the surgeon, but in the US the minimum (though this could be state specific) is 2 years living as the opposite gender, a GID diagnosis from 2 different psychologists (each of which are NOT going to diagnose you without at least a year of sessions). But they each have to rule that you're emotionally stable enough to go through the surgery.

The absolute best-case scenario is 2 years. In reality, it takes WAY longer than that. The stability requirement can often prove problematic, because the surgery itself can cause immense emotional excitement. And even if it's something you really want, anything that emotional can cause huge amounts of stress and mood swings (as I'm sure plenty of people who have gotten married, had kids, etc. can testify to).

In the classes I had at RU that spoke about the process, 5 years was the approximate average time for someone actively pursuing it. I don't have actual proof of that, and it's off the top of my head, but that's what I remember.
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#72 Aug 27 2013 at 2:33 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
So how far is Manning down this path anyway? Since you don't just walk into a doctor's office, say "I wanna be a girl", and they snip off your giblets for you.
You have to go through a few years of hormone therapy before you get to the snipping part anyway, if you even decide to go through with the operation (although that's much more successful for MtF than for FtM so most trans men don't).
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#73 Aug 27 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.


someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If he wants some therapeutic discussions with the Chaplain, I'm sure no one will disagree.
GOD IS EVIL! Smiley: mad

That's a terrible idea that has no place in a secula...

...

...

Nope can't fake it. Smiley: frown



I know that you're being facetious, but part of the Chaplain's job is basic therapy. If you go to the Chaplain with an issue, s/he shouldn't throw religion down your throat, unless you welcome it.
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#74 Aug 27 2013 at 6:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.
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#75 Aug 27 2013 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And alma demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what GID is.


You fail to demonstrate the fundamental understanding of logic. The details of GID, or any other disorder, are irrelevant to the argument that I'm making.

You can't claim that someone with nothing wrong him has a disorder.
If it is a DISORDER, then there's something wrong with the individual and there is also a correlating "norm" and the intent is to push that individual to that norm. Else, it's not a disorder. If it's not a disorder, then its a preference.
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.


This.

"Treatment" for GID is to help someone with GID transition their lifestyle, and possibly their body, to a level of gender expression that gives them peace of mind.

This actually holds true for most "disorders" associated with psychiatry. You don't "fix" them, you work with the client so they can learn to make the disorder work for them.
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#76 Aug 27 2013 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Working within the context that under current law or policy or doctrine, prisons provide clinical treatment for diagnosed diseases or illnesses...

The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.

The decision, as far as I can tell, is they won't provide it for Manning. I wonder how they've already had sufficient diagnosis to make a public statement that they wont' be treating this illness. I've not found anything stating that GID is specifically a non-treatable ailment within the prison system. Other prisons have allowed it's treatment.

I suspect it's a decision made to appease the public and not based on good medical evaluation.

As far as switching him to a woman's prison, why not? I'm making an off-hand guess that it's cheaper to house an inmate in a woman's prison than a mans...and this is all about the money, yes?
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#77 Aug 27 2013 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
The military prison system does not provide treatment for gender identity disorders.
The decision, as far as I can tell, is they won't provide it for Manning.

No, they just don't offer it.
Courthouse News Service wrote:
FT. MEADE, Md. (CN) - Though evidence has shown that Bradley Manning has considered living as a woman, the prison likely to hold the WikiLeaks source for decades confirmed that it does not provide hormone therapy or ***-reassignment surgery to inmates.

There has been cases in the civilian court system that resulted in prisons offering hormone treatment. The military system is a separate kettle of fish. You can argue that they should offer it but the current status quo and context for this discussion is that they do not.
Quote:
As far as switching him to a woman's prison, why not? I'm making an off-hand guess that it's cheaper to house an inmate in a woman's prison than a mans...and this is all about the money, yes?

(A) Because he's not a woman
(B) Because he's been assigned to a specific prison and I don't know if an equivalent women's prison exists in the military justice system
(C) Because the choice on where to stay out your sentence shouldn't be that of the prisoner nor based on voluntary actions from the prisoner after the fact
(D) It's not "all about the money" at all; I stated earlier my philosophy regarding incarceration.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 9:02am by Jophiel
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#78 Aug 27 2013 at 4:17 PM Rating: Default
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Aethien wrote:
The disorder in GID is that the person suffering from it feels like their body is a different gender than they are. The norm is that those two are the same and the way to make those two the same for someone with GID is to transition their body to that of the opposite ***.

And there you go, defeated by your own logic.


Wow, this really went over your head. I would think someone who is fighting for LBGT, would understand this. Ever watched X-men when people are trying to "cure" the mutant disease and the response is "There's nothing to cure"? It's the same concept with the homosexual-curing camps. You can't cure something if there is nothing wrong with the person.

You can only classify it a disorder if there is something wrong with the person. So, in this case, if you want to classify GID as a "disorder", then believing that your body and gender are different is the problem. Your *feeling*, which I bold for you, IS the disorder. Every other man, ***, straight, feminine or not, believes that they are a man. For whatever reason, *YOU* (generally speaking) FEEL that you are something else. That is the disorder. The norm is to be like every other man in the world, not a unique snowflake.

If women with or removed penises were the norm, then you would have a point.

idd wrote:
This.

"Treatment" for GID is to help someone with GID transition their lifestyle, and possibly their body, to a level of gender expression that gives them peace of mind.

This actually holds true for most "disorders" associated with psychiatry. You don't "fix" them, you work with the client so they can learn to make the disorder work for them.


Read above.

That's illogical. If your treatment is to make them accept the changes as opposed to reversing them, then how is it a disorder to begin with? You don't do that with eating disorders, drinking addictions, gambling addictions, drug addictions, alcohol addictions, anger issues, depression issues, etc.

If the "treatment" is to support the person's changes as opposed to reversing the changes, then it isn't a disorder.
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#79 Aug 27 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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#80 Aug 27 2013 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory
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#81 Aug 27 2013 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.

I mostly came here to respond to this, though:

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
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#82 Aug 27 2013 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.

I mostly came here to respond to this, though:

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I JUST LOVE RAINBOWS AND UNICORNS, OKAY.
Screenshot




God, I need to stop posting from my phone, I never even saw lolgaxe's picture...
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#83 Aug 27 2013 at 4:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes

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#84 Aug 27 2013 at 5:05 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
I'm a peacock trapped in the body of a male human. If I ever get thrown in jail for leaking sensitive military information to the terrorists, I'd like a free species change to go with it, kthx.
Well, get yourself to a psychologist then, I'm sure someone would love to do a case study on you and perhaps stick some feathers up your ***.
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#85 Aug 27 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope anyone arguing that she shouldn't have hormones paid for by the state realize they cost like $5-15 per month.
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#86 Aug 27 2013 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
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Let her pump out some license plates then. Self sufficient! Problem solved!
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#87 Aug 27 2013 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Her physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.
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Rachel9 wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
His physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.

"Most certainly"? Probably not. But then I allowed for basic mental health treatment so we're all copacetic regardless.
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#89 Aug 27 2013 at 9:12 PM Rating: Default
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Rachel9 wrote:
I hope anyone arguing that she shouldn't have hormones paid for by the state realize they cost like $5-15 per month.

How much they cost is quite irrelevant.

It is not on the tax payer to pay for a completely optional procedure.

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On the plus side, Rachel can feel free to buy and mail them to Manning's attention, c/o Leavenworth
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#91 Aug 27 2013 at 9:58 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Yes, thank you for your input.

Except not, because it was stupid.

[EDIT]

That was at Alma, obviously.

Edited, Aug 27th 2013 6:25pm by idiggory


Are you claiming that every transgender has/had a disorder?

SPG wrote:
I'm waiting for this to all come down to how we define 'gender' and 'disorder.'

Again. Smiley: rolleyes


That's what it is all about.
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#92 Aug 27 2013 at 11:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Her physical health won't suffer without it.
It most certainly will. Mental health can have a pretty big impact on physical health.

"Most certainly"? Probably not.
It's okay, i know it's hard to google things, so let me help you out: http://bmb.pharma.hr/lauc/NI/303.pdf

Quote:
But then I allowed for basic mental health treatment so we're all copacetic regardless.
Well, the treatment here is HRT, so i guess we're in agreement then.

NaughtyWord wrote:
How much they cost is quite irrelevant.

It is not on the tax payer to pay for a completely optional procedure.
It's not irrelevant because the alternative will cost potentially thousands of times more. One way or another, you're going to pay for it. Trying to avoid paying for a $5 medication is just going to get crazy expensive. Between the inevitable law suit (which she'll win), extra costs for suicide watch, anti-depressants, medical care (see above!), therapy, etc etc etc, it'd be cheaper to pay for her entire transition, including hormones, SRS, and plastic surgery.

Jophiel wrote:
On the plus side, Rachel can feel free to buy and mail them to Manning's attention, c/o Leavenworth
Pretty sure they'd be thrown out, and i'd be arrested if i tried that.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 1:19am by Rachel9
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Wow, an article saying that sometimes depressed people have health issues? Golly, we better make sure no one in prison is sad! They might all get prison cancer!

You realize that nothing there counted as "certainly", right? Or else prison overcrowding would largely take care of itself.

And HRT in this context is a specific treatment for a very specific disorder, not "basic treatment".

So sorry Manning might be sad though. Hope he doesn't catch cancer from it.
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#94 Aug 28 2013 at 12:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Hope he doesn't catch cancer from it.


I don't think you are being sincere, for some reason.
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#95 Aug 28 2013 at 12:12 AM Rating: Decent
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You realize that nothing there counted as "certainly", right?
Why are you arguing about something you didn't even bother reading?

Quote:
And HRT in this context is a specific treatment for a very specific disorder, not "basic treatment".
What the @#%^ is "basic treatment". Anti-depressants for depression is also a specific treatment for a specific disorder. Yet giving those to prisoners is no problem? How about anti-psychotics for schizophrenics? Unless you're proposing giving tylenol for any ailment, that doesn't really make any sense.

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 3:13am by Rachel9
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#96 Aug 28 2013 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
It's not irrelevant because the alternative will cost potentially thousands of times more. One way or another, you're going to pay for it. Trying to avoid paying for a $5 medication is just going to get crazy expensive. Between the inevitable law suit (which she'll win), extra costs for suicide watch, anti-depressants, medical care (see above!), therapy, etc etc etc, it'd be cheaper to pay for her entire transition, including hormones, SRS, and plastic surgery.



Or--as I've pretty much laid out--not treat any of that sh*t.


Prison is prison, not some camp for the mentally dysfunctional to get a free medical bill on the backs of those who obey the law.

I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.

Medicine in prison should be reserved in exception of in extreme cases of life or death. An example would be some sort of malignant cancer.

Otherwise, wait until you are out to seek care.

If that seems awful or unfair, here's a brilliant idea: don't break the law.

-NW


Edited, Aug 27th 2013 11:40pm by NaughtyWord
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#97 Aug 28 2013 at 12:49 AM Rating: Decent
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**** why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.

Quote:
I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.
And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 2:50am by Rachel9
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#98 Aug 28 2013 at 1:22 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
**** why don't we just kill all criminals? After all, they broke the law, so they deserve whatever they get.

Quote:
I'm a big fan of removing ALL mental health treatments in prison. If you are crazy, then a jury should verdict as such, then you go to a hospital. Otherwise, rot your sick *** in prison.
And if someone goes on a rampage and kills a bunch of people, because they were denied treatment, well sh*t, if those people hadn't broken the law, they wouldn't have been in jail to be killed, right? Oh, but i hope they don't kill any guards...

Edited, Aug 28th 2013 2:50am by Rachel9


This is a really weak argument. it's an issue previously settled in favor of the stance you are arguing for, but it's a very weak argument.
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#99 Aug 28 2013 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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If that seems awful or unfair, here's a brilliant idea: don't break the law.


It seems that you're prioritising your desire for punishment over efficacy; not, it seems, out of a conscious decision to do so, which I could kind of respect, but because of a naive belief in the seemingly intuitive position that a 'harder' stance on crime will do more to prevent it and create a more stable society.
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#100Almalieque, Posted: Aug 28 2013 at 2:47 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You clearly don't understand how the government classifies "basic". You're confusing "basic" with "common" and/or "preferred".
#101 Aug 28 2013 at 2:58 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
If the disorder is "thinking you are a particular gender", the treatment is to REMOVE that thought. Mutilating your body doesn't change your ***, but supports the thought that you are a particular gender, i.e. the disorder.


What if the disorder is "Knowing you are a particular gender"
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