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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#27 Aug 25 2013 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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Spoonless wrote:
I suppose hormone therapy would fall under your stipulations, no? Would you be OK with that but not the surgery? I'm genuinely curious.

Provided the prison allows anyone to bring medications into the prison and administer them in the visiting room (or through that glass with the phones, no idea what its looks like in Leavenworth) then sure. In other words, no special considerations for him one way or the other.
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If someone has a medical issue that demands a chiropractor, then yes.

He doesn't have a medical issue that demands hormone therapy, he wants hormone therapy. His physical health won't suffer without it.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 1:32pm by Jophiel
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#28 Aug 25 2013 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's not like this is a decision that needs to be made today. Manning might never even seek it.

Washington Post wrote:
Army Pfc. Bradley Manning said Thursday that he will live as a woman and seek hormone replacement therapy while incarcerated, confronting the military prison system with a demand that has prompted state and federal institutions to reluctantly offer similar treatment to inmates.

How convenient that he chose NOW to make these big decisions, huh? Smiley: rolleyes
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#29 Aug 25 2013 at 12:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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Pretty sure nobody makes that decision lightly.
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#30 Aug 25 2013 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sure he put all sorts of thought into demanding it from the military prison system, yes.

Of course, I'm sure he didn't take committing espionage against the United States lightly either. This guy is just full of wonderful benefits for this nation that he doesn't take lightly.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 1:40pm by Jophiel
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#31 Aug 25 2013 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a pretty archaic view of medicine at this point to be separating physical and mental health into separate categories, and not one that any medical association in the US would endorse.

If it would cause him severe mental stress to not have access to a mental health treatment, then he should not have it. And his overall health, physical and mental, will suffer immensely if he doesn't.

At the end of the day, it's a mental health professional who has the capability to predict what that level of stress would be. I'll defer to their judgement. But I find if hard to see how much further down we could set the bar, if we'd restrict care in prison to life-threatening, physical issues.

[EDIT]

Manning was exhibiting more than a few substantial warning signs that he was cracking under the stress long before he ever leaked information. I'm far more critical of the government's failing here than I am his.

The other side of this is that, due to armed forces regulations, Manning would have been dishonorably discharged (at least, to my understanding), if he made the decision to transition or was diagnosed with GID. That's a LOT of stress coming from all directions. It shouldn't be surprising he cracked, particularly if the actual info he leaked was causing plenty of that, and that he actually saw himself as being morally compromised by not divulging it.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 2:48pm by idiggory
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#32 Aug 25 2013 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'm sure he put all sorts of thought into demanding it from the military prison system, yes.

Of course, I'm sure he didn't take committing espionage against the United States lightly either. This guy is just full of wonderful benefits for this nation that he doesn't take lightly.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 1:40pm by Jophiel
The crime Manning was convicted of holds little bearing on the validity of a decision to request hormone therapy be provided.
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#33 Aug 25 2013 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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The crime Manning was convicted of is 100% why we're having this conversation since he wants the US government to pay for his hormone therapy. To make it clear: He screwed over the US and now, while in prison, he thinks he deserves to have the US pay for his therapy. As opposed to him paying for it out of pocket on the outside like any other person.

So, yeah, it holds significant bearing.
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#34 Aug 25 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
It's a pretty archaic view of medicine at this point to be separating physical and mental health into separate categories, and not one that any medical association in the US would endorse.

If it would cause him severe mental stress to not have access to a mental health treatment, then he should not have it.

Give the kid some Xanax.
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I'm far more critical of the government's failing here than I am his.

I'm not. He's the one who committed the espionage. Oh, poor baby for wanting to be a girl; that certainly meant he needed to leak classified national security secrets to the world. Isn't that in the ole Super Modern Mental Health Guidebook as the prime symptom?

He committed a crime. A serious one. That means he pays consequences, one of which should be NOT receiving completely voluntary treatments that have zero bearing on his physical health duinr his incarceration. If he wants to talk to a shrink or whatever, fine since I'm assuming that's a treatment available for most prisoners.

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Manning would have been dishonorably discharged (at least, to my understanding), if he made the decision to transition or was diagnosed with GID

Right. And so how did this course of action work out for him?

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 2:06pm by Jophiel
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#35 Aug 25 2013 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I get all hot and bothered watching Joph play a conservative.


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#36 Aug 25 2013 at 1:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't realize that handwaving away espionage so precious little snowflakes can get their voluntary hormone meds was a liberal position, but sure.
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#37 Aug 25 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm of the position that an inmate's crime should have no bearing on their level of provided healthcare, mental or physical. If Manning were in prison on a mandatory minimum sentence for drug possession, or for more heinous crimes like rape, murder, or child molestation, the same level of healthcare should be provided. Yes, this also applies to charges of espionage. It doesn't matter how I personally feel about the crime.
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#38 Aug 25 2013 at 1:18 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The other side of this is that, due to armed forces regulations, Manning would have been dishonorably discharged (at least, to my understanding), if he made the decision to transition or was diagnosed with GID.
He wouldn't be discharged at all, he'd be barred from reenlistment, and would have still gotten either an honorable discharge or a medical discharge, neither of which means much of anything when looking for new employment.
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#39 Aug 25 2013 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
so precious little snowflakes can get their voluntary hormone meds
Nice.
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#40 Aug 25 2013 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
I'm of the position that an inmate's crime should have no bearing on their level of provided healthcare, mental or physical. If Manning were in prison on a mandatory minimum sentence for drug possession, or for more heinous crimes like rape, murder, or child molestation, the same level of healthcare should be provided. Yes, this also applies to charges of espionage. It doesn't matter how I personally feel about the crime.


That's my stance on this as well. If we were talking about James Holmes, I'd still set the same standard for medical treatment. Or if we were talking about PoWs, Guantanamo, etc.

Side note: I can't find any part of me that seriously wants to condemn manning for his actions. I feel like the situation he was placed in is one where it would conceivably have been considered treason either way, one with regards to the government, one with regards to the people the constitute the nation. The only crime I would have been willing to accept him as legitimately guilty is the charge he was cleared of.

But I don't think this thread needs to be about whether or not Manning is guilty. That ship has sailed. /shrug.

lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The other side of this is that, due to armed forces regulations, Manning would have been dishonorably discharged (at least, to my understanding), if he made the decision to transition or was diagnosed with GID.
He wouldn't be discharged at all, he'd be barred from reenlistment, and would have still gotten either an honorable discharge or a medical discharge, neither of which means much of anything when looking for new employment.


That's good to know. Definitely the better course of events. I'm not entirely sure what about GID makes it a disqualifying medical condition, but that's neither here nor there.

Quote:
If he wants to talk to a shrink or whatever, fine since I'm assuming that's a treatment available for most prisoners.


I doubt any of us are holding the position that Manning should get special treatment. I'm saying that I think he should get the hormone therapy treatment, yeah. I take it as a given that this means such treatment should be available in general. And if access to therapists isn't available now, it really, really should be.

But if we're talking about GID, specifically, it's particularly important. Considering treatment for GID as cosmetic is... extremely odd, to me. The statistics for suicide among people with GID is horrifying. Up to 3/4 of the population is suicidal, with 30-50% of them attempting suicide in their lifetime (really quick google searches - I only know the teen rates off the top of my head). Sure, these stresses are more linked to societal influence than the state itself. But I doubt that would simply stop being a factor in prison.
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#41 Aug 25 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what about GID makes it a disqualifying medical condition, but that's neither here nor there.
Well, there's pretty good evidence now that it leads to espionage and mental instability.
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#42 Aug 25 2013 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I'm not entirely sure what about GID makes it a disqualifying medical condition, but that's neither here nor there.
Well, there's pretty good evidence now that it leads to espionage and mental instability.

I really hope a sample size of 1 isn't sufficient evidence for the armed forces.

And we went back in for a second Iraq war, so I'm going to say it generally isn't. Smiley: lol
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#43 Aug 25 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
so precious little snowflakes can get their voluntary hormone meds
Nice.

Thanks. And accurate.
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#44 Aug 25 2013 at 3:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I doubt any of us are holding the position that Manning should get special treatment. I'm saying that I think he should get the hormone therapy treatment, yeah.

Saying he should be given treatments not already authorized by the military prison system is 100% the definition of saying he should be getting special treatment.
Spoonless wrote:
I'm of the position that an inmate's crime should have no bearing on their level of provided healthcare, mental or physical. If Manning were in prison on a mandatory minimum sentence for drug possession, or for more heinous crimes like rape, murder, or child molestation, the same level of healthcare should be provided. Yes, this also applies to charges of espionage. It doesn't matter how I personally feel about the crime.

If he was in prison for child molestation, I'd be saying that first he ****** children and now he wants the government to pay for his hormone therapy. You're correct in part for the crime not being especially relevant.

However, he picked espionage as his crime of choice while part of the armed forces which put him in a military prison which disqualifies him from getting the treatment he suddenly decided he really, really needs (upon, you know, having been sentenced). Good thing he didn't make that choice lightly.

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 4:15pm by Jophiel
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#45 Aug 25 2013 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Saying he should be given treatments not already authorized by the military prison system is 100% the definition of saying he should be getting special treatment.


Did you morph into gbaji or something, because in what world does that logic work? Saying that he should be given treatments means that those treatments should be available for prisoners. If they are already, cool. If they aren't, they should be.

It doesn't mean "He should get treatment regardless of whether or not other prisoners can get treatment."
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#46 Aug 25 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Saying that he should be given treatments means that those treatments should be available for prisoners.

They're not. You're asking for the rules to be changed using Manning as the catalyst. That's special treatment. Calling me Gbaji won't make that any less true.
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#47 Aug 25 2013 at 3:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Federal prisons allow for the treatment of GID even when diagnosed after a prisoner is incarcerated, and I think that should be extended to military prison (and state prisons, for that matter).
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#48 Aug 25 2013 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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That's fair. I think federal prisons shouldn't offer it so there ya go. Smiley: laugh
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#49 Aug 25 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Are you opposed to all mental health treatment in prisons, or are you just opposed to the idea of GID as a legitimate mental health issue?
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#50 Aug 25 2013 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Saying that he should be given treatments means that those treatments should be available for prisoners.

They're not. You're asking for the rules to be changed using Manning as the catalyst. That's special treatment. Calling me Gbaji won't make that any less true.


Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol

So women got special treatment when they received the right to vote. And the mentally disabled got special treatment when we founded mental care facilities, instead of just tossing them in prison. And the gays are getting special treatment by asking for marriage. And Rosa Parks got special treatment when Blacks had more of their civil rights recognized.
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#51 Aug 25 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
So, unless something is "wrong" with him, then I don't support it. With that being said, I support therapy if he thinks he need it.
Given that she is a woman in a man's body I would say that there is definitely something wrong.


And how do you know that? Do you just take everyone's word for it? He didn't seem to have a problem before.

If 35 year old gets caught sleeping with a 16 year old, can he claim that he's just a teenager trapped in a man's body? That was the argument made for Michael Jackson, that he was reliving his childhood because he never had one.

At what point do you start segregating physical traits from psychological traits?

Furthermore, let me rephrase my sentiment. Unless not having the procedure yields in negative physical affects, then no. If he wants mental treatment, then by all means, let him have it.

His Excellency Aethien wrote:
NaughtyWord wrote:
Will Bradley Manning die if he doesn't become a woman?
Suicide is unfortunately far from unlikely, so maybe.


I don't see the problem.

Aethien wrote:
I think it's no more than reasonable to transfer her to a prison for women when the transition starts showing though.


You don't see any possible correlation with his prison sentence, his request and what you just said?
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