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Is a ***-change a constitutional right?Follow

#1 Aug 25 2013 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/chelsea-manning

Do you believe the cost behind a ***-change is a Constitutional Right?


First let me state; I'm not against or hate transgendered people at all. In my point of view, MTF's are a straight man's dream, in that I mean it takes away one more male out of the pool and adds a female.

/snicker

Okay, jokes aside, I'm okay with people choosing whatever they want to do with themselves. Though I don't believe the taxpayer should be on the hook for those decisions.

So Screamagers, should Bradley Chelsea Manning's *** change be subsidized by tax payers?

Why or why not?

-NW
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#2 Aug 25 2013 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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No, along with breast enhancements. I'm having to "compete" for braces. I don't think a *** change should be granted. There's a fine line between necessity and personal desires. In some instances, I can see granting augmentations for self-esteem, but this is not one of them. In the "necessity" scenarios, there is something "wrong" that needs to be fixed. So, unless something is "wrong" with him, then I don't support it. With that being said, I support therapy if he thinks he need it.
#3 Aug 25 2013 at 4:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
So, unless something is "wrong" with him, then I don't support it. With that being said, I support therapy if he thinks he need it.
Given that she is a woman in a man's body I would say that there is definitely something wrong.
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#4 Aug 25 2013 at 5:56 AM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
So, unless something is "wrong" with him, then I don't support it. With that being said, I support therapy if he thinks he need it.
Given that she is a woman in a man's body I would say that there is definitely something wrong.



I hate psychology. I really do.

Sometimes they come out with this really good thing and it is awesome, like stress treatment and diagnostics. Then sometimes they come out with something absolutely retarded and over-diagnosed like ADD/ADHD which seems more and more like myth rather than scientific fact.



Is there peer-reviewed consensus that transsexualism is a consequence of genetics or is it a consequence of environment?

Is GID (Gender Identity Disorder) a real thing like stress or is it a largely manufactured "illness" like ADD/ADHD?

-NW
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#5 Aug 25 2013 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's not really worth debating. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of money is a mere pittance in the pot. You've paid more for less via your tax dollar. Smiley: wink

Someone with a gender disorder that is expected to carry on as the wrong gender can be detrimental to themselves and others.
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#6 Aug 25 2013 at 8:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Of course it's worth debating. If it was $5,000 in federal tax dollars going for building crosses on courthouses or ***-conversion therapies it would be a "mere pittance in the pot" and yet still worth debating.

In this case, treatment for it would necessitate a different prison than the one he is assigned to (or likely to be). He can seek all the *** conversion therapy he wants when he's out of Leavenworth. I'm sure Wikileaks will foot the bill for him.

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can be detrimental to themselves and others.

He's already been detrimental to the United States of America. Which is why he can wait 8-35 years to get his completely voluntary, non-life saving treatments. Boy, it's almost as though there's consequences for espionage, huh?
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#7 Aug 25 2013 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Boy, it's almost as though there's consequences for espionage, huh?
You mean like going to prison for 8-35 years? Because I think that's the punishment he got from the court, no need to tack on extra punishment.
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#8 Aug 25 2013 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
You mean like going to prison for 8-35 years? Because I think that's the punishment he got from the court, no need to tack on extra punishment.

No "extra" to it. It's prison, not a care clinic for voluntary treatments.
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#9 Aug 25 2013 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
You mean like going to prison for 8-35 years? Because I think that's the punishment he got from the court, no need to tack on extra punishment.

No "extra" to it. It's prison, not a care clinic for voluntary treatments.



Exactly my feelings on it.


Will Bradley Manning die if he doesn't become a woman? No? Then he can wait till he gets out of prison and pay for his own elective surgeries and hormones. At that point I don't give a rat's *** what he does to himself.

It isn't the job of tax payers to make Bradley Manning feel all warm and fuzzy on the inside.

Elinda wrote:
I think it's not really worth debating. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of money is a mere pittance in the pot. You've paid more for less via your tax dollar. Smiley: wink

Someone with a gender disorder that is expected to carry on as the wrong gender can be detrimental to themselves and others.


So where's it stop then hmmm? Should we give all prisoners who feel like changing their *** or women with small tits a boob job on the tax payer dime? How about nose jobs? Teeth bleaching?

-NW

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 8:32am by NaughtyWord
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#10 Aug 25 2013 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I think it's not really worth debating. In the grand scheme of things, the amount of money is a mere pittance in the pot. You've paid more for less via your tax dollar. Smiley: wink

Someone with a gender disorder that is expected to carry on as the wrong gender can be detrimental to themselves and others.
Your tax dollars should pay for everyone else as well.
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#11 Aug 25 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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When it comes down to it, I don't feel it should be on the taxpayer to pay for it. That said, I think that if she has the means to pay for the treatment herself, whether via insurance or otherwise, I think she should be allowed to undergo treatment while incarcerated.
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#12 Aug 25 2013 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Spoonless wrote:
When it comes down to it, I don't feel it should be on the taxpayer to pay for it. That said, I think that if she has the means to pay for the treatment herself, whether via insurance or otherwise, I think she should be allowed to undergo treatment while incarcerated.


There's problems with that as well. It isn't as simple as *poof* you're female.

At what point--if at all--would we transfer him to a female prison?

I did a quick preliminary Google search, several sites devoted to transgender folks tells me that the MtF process is a long one. Transfer him after he gets his *******? How about a ******?

Who is to determine who is going to pay for aftercare? Complications?

Then it begs the question, are we putting people in prison to cater to their every little desire? Kinda defeats the point of prison if you ask me.

-NW

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 8:48am by NaughtyWord
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#13 Aug 25 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Good
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He can have whatever voluntary treatments he can receive while being visited by a doctor during normal visiting hours and in the normal visiting location. Deciding he's a girl shouldn't allow him special visiting privileges.
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#14 Aug 25 2013 at 10:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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NaughtyWord wrote:
Will Bradley Manning die if he doesn't become a woman?
Suicide is unfortunately far from unlikely, so maybe.

And I don't think it should be paid for through taxes, either she can pay for it himself or through her insurance. I think it's no more than reasonable to transfer her to a prison for women when the transition starts showing though.
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#15 Aug 25 2013 at 10:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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1) Does it really matter what prison Manning is in, if he->she continues to be in solitary confinement the whole time?

2) Crowd-source it. Smiley: nod
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#16 Aug 25 2013 at 10:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
1) Does it really matter what prison Manning is in

If not, then let's leave him where he's supposed to be: Leavenworth. The high security military prison for his military crimes where he was sentenced under the military justice system.
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#17 Aug 25 2013 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
When it comes down to it, I don't feel it should be on the taxpayer to pay for it. That said, I think that if she has the means to pay for the treatment herself, whether via insurance or otherwise, I think she should be allowed to undergo treatment while incarcerated.

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#18 Aug 25 2013 at 11:42 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
1) Does it really matter what prison Manning is in, if he->she continues to be in solitary confinement the whole time?

2) Crowd-source it. Smiley: nod


Well, most psychological organizations have ruled solitary confinement a form of torture if it lasts for a few weeks, so I wouldn't be surprised if the combined stresses caused by it and the gender identity issues were more than enough to make Manning a high risk for suicide. That's not an uncommon side effect of solitary to begin with (and is, laughably, one of our first responses for dealing with suicidal inmates...)

But it's a common enough practice. I believe precedent typically says that inmates have to pose a threat to others for any sort of prolonged solitary to be acceptable, though. I wouldn't imagine Manning was actually sentenced to solitary.

The other reality is that, due to the press she's getting, if they attempted to keep her in solitary for an extended period of time, it shouldn't be too hard to garner attention for that fact and successfully sue for wrongful treatment.
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#19 Aug 25 2013 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spoonless wrote:
When it comes down to it, I don't feel it should be on the taxpayer to pay for it. That said, I think that if she has the means to pay for the treatment herself, whether via insurance or otherwise, I think she should be allowed to undergo treatment while incarcerated.

Should this go for all prisoners? If I want to pay for a chiropractor to come visit me in prison, should I be allowed to? Get a nose job? Therapeutic massage?
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#20 Aug 25 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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What was their reasoning for the solitary confinement over the last few years anyway? I suppose I just assumed whatever that was would continue to justify solitary in the future.
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#21 Aug 25 2013 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
When it comes down to it, I don't feel it should be on the taxpayer to pay for it. That said, I think that if she has the means to pay for the treatment herself, whether via insurance or otherwise, I think she should be allowed to undergo treatment while incarcerated.

Should this go for all prisoners? If I want to pay for a chiropractor to come visit me in prison, should I be allowed to? Get a nose job? Therapeutic massage?

Jophiel wrote:
He can have whatever voluntary treatments he can receive while being visited by a doctor during normal visiting hours and in the normal visiting location. Deciding he's a girl shouldn't allow him special visiting privileges.
I suppose hormone therapy would fall under your stipulations, no? Would you be OK with that but not the surgery? I'm genuinely curious.
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#22 Aug 25 2013 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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If someone has a medical issue that demands a chiropractor, then yes.

I don't believe prison as a punishment works. And I view our current system as a huge burden on the health of our society.

I believe in rehabilitation, and I believe that central to that idea is that inmates need to leave, mentally and physically, in a better situation than they were before if at all possible. I think that would have a direct correlation on the quality of our society, on the rates of repeat offenses, etc.

If a *** reassignment surgery is vital to Manning's mental health, I would consider it natural to make that option available. I also fall into the camp that believes that particular surgery should be covered under socialized healthcare plans as well, so I imagine there's many levels of differing opinion here.

I don't know. I fail to see why we wouldn't let inmates see chiropractors, if they have issues that require chiropractors to solve. I doubt they'll be as productive a member of society if all the cartilage between their vertebrae erodes before they're finally released. I also find it difficult to understand why anyone would imagine prison was effective at much of anything productive if therapy wasn't available.
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#23 Aug 25 2013 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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What was their reasoning for the solitary confinement over the last few years anyway? I suppose I just assumed whatever that was would continue to justify solitary in the future.


Doubtful, since it was ruled that their solitary confinement of Manning constituted torture and reduced his sentence accordingly. Granted, the amount they thought he deserved to be compensated was a joke, but declaring it torture would theoretically give him too much power to sue if they pulled that again.
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#24 Aug 25 2013 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I also fall into the camp that believes that particular surgery should be covered under socialized healthcare plans as well, so I imagine there's many levels of differing opinion here.
If and when that happens, I would argue for Manning to have access to it. As it currently isn't, I don't think she should have special privileges because she's incarcerated.
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#25 Aug 25 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Huh managed to miss that; well that makes things a lot more interesting. Sounds like whether or not you're paying for the hormones/surgery you're spending extra dealing with the problems created. Someone who's been in solitary for years, with GID, convicted of a non-violet offense that put others' lives in danger? Then we stick them in with the general military prison population? A recipe for disaster from this uninformed person's point of view.

S/he's @#%^ed.

Edit: Sorry, but that just sounds like an incredibly stupid idea. Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, Aug 25th 2013 11:22am by someproteinguy
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#26 Aug 25 2013 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's more complicated than that, given we have an insurance-based system. Manning cannot be employed in prison, and therefore cannot get insurance that way. She can't afford to purchase a plan that covers sexual reassignment surgery by herself on prison wages.

Given that the state is the one restricting them from the steps that would allow access to the care, I don't think it's as simple an argument as just breaking things down into privileges inside vs. out.

That said, if the compromise was hormone therapy and a "let's see," I'm more or less okay with it.

Most trans persons choose not to go forward with sexual reassignment surgery, for a myriad of reasons (some don't fall at the extreme end of the binary, some would rather have working sexual organs, some would rather not choose the cons imposed by our current medical limitations, some just don't want to face the stress of major surgery, etc.). It's not like this is a decision that needs to be made today. Manning might never even seek it.
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