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#52 May 17 2013 at 1:52 PM Rating: Good
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Vataro wrote:
Who came up with this system?
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#53 May 17 2013 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
Vataro wrote:
So here's a question. Who came up with this system?

This isn't the AMA for Admins!
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#54 May 17 2013 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Those came about as the result of a short lived rounding bug. Basically, your karma is a rolling average calculation that updates your base karma and the last few hundred posts once you get to a certain number of posts. Instead of taking the karma from all 28,662 posts (ignoring several somewhat unique exceptions relating to older accounts, and mine in particular, at least 57324 ratings) and then taking the average, which does bring the forum to it's knees, the system assumes a value of 5.03 in my case since i'm one of the people with the bug, and compares that against the last 500 or so posts worth of ratings, which is a much smaller mathmatical chore. That has the tendancy to reinforce the existing rating on people who have exceptionally large numbers of posts, and reduces the effectiveness of targetted karma camping to a managable level. That combined with the whole "admins are the only one that can rate really old posts" thing too.

I thought karma higher than 5 was just because someone managed to get rated up enough to get their average higher. Rateups are 6, so it's logical that eventually you could get over 5. My karma for instance is very slightly higher than 5

Edited, May 17th 2013 3:59pm by Xsarus
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#55 May 17 2013 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vataro wrote:
So here's a question. Who came up with this system?


Thats a more complicated question than it appears at first glance. It involves a bit of history going back into the UBB forums. Basically, the first version of the UBB forum, you had a name, and a post count, and that post count would make stars appear over time as it increased. UBB version 2, added the ability to rate a person, but it was pretty brutal. you were able to rate anyone, but only once. Forever. Needless to say, the rating system led to some crankyness, and is probably one of the reasons the Asylum developed the way it did, because there was really an intimidation factor to it, because retaliation would be swift if anyone found out you were rating others down. Entire conspiracy theories, and time schedule checks against logins, etc sprouted up to try and "catch" the downraters (upraters were ok). i wasn't an admin at that time so I don't know how accurate most of the guesses were, but there was a decent amount of drama over it.

So, along comes the new comment system for everquest items. Predating the forums sytem, Allakhazam wanted a way for people to be able to tell which comments were good useful info, and which ones were crap, but he didn't want people who hadn't contributed to the site with at least some influence to be able to add weight to those comments. The origional concept was that the higher the karma of the person, the more weight their rating would add to a given comment. The highest rated comments for an item would tend to "float" to the top of the thread, the worst would self nuke eventually. Further complicating matters was the rate scale. it wasn't just an up or a down arrow back then, it was a 1-5 scale. Needless to say, the math part was fairly involved, and the guru weight calculation wasn't feasable at the time, so it was eventually simplified to the1-5 scale alone, and with a single self rate per post. At this same time, user=5, good old Anonymous was still able to post without logins. this quickly became a problem as the item threads were flooded with stupid comments. Spammers didn't really exist back then as such, it was mainly trolls and idiots.

So fast forward 2 years. the UBB forums are crapping out on a regular basis, Danalog is threatening to format the drive they reside on if he has to try and recover that flat file database one more time, and Illia decides to build a new forum system. I wasn't an admin at the time still, but I already had some input via back channels into some of what would later become the various sockpuppet and anti spammer tools, so I was asked to help put together the look and feel of the new initial forums, including aspects of the rating system since the need to self moderate the forums somewhat had become apperent by that time. This same time period is when the first spammers started showing up, the never to be sufficiently damned 0utwarz and kings0fchaos spammers, which quickly started flooding the UBB forums. so, the theory was that a pile of forum regulars could eliminate spammers immidiatly.

What quickly became apparent, was that your first 2 or 3 posts immidiatly determined your rating history for all time. Initially when we brought people into the new forum, there were very few people who even could rate. some who had previously played in the comment system could, but most people were at 3.00. so we initially set about bumping most of the initial users to scholar. Most of those initial users of course were Asylumites. Now at this same time, FFXI is huge. it's the largest forum on the site, Everquest is in decline, WoW and EQ2 are still rumors, so there are alot of FFXI people, and we're doing 1,600 unique users an hour on the FFXI main UBB forum. We eventually bring them in to the new forum, and it's like dropping a pile of baby chickens into a shark tank. The asylumites are the only ones with rate ability, but the FFXI people have the numbers, and at the same time, I'm trying to get enough people up to scholar quickly to somewhat stabilize the pool, because the whole thing doesn't work if only a few people can rate, so initially anyone with a pulse essentially ended up with at least scholar.

Shortly into the launch of the new forum, the 15 post no karma window and the double self rate on post was added, because otherwise any new poster, which everyone was at that point, would get nuked out of existance, or shot instantly to Guru. The insta gurus ended up the target of resentment from other people, and the whole thing spawned the first of the Ratebots. (the first one was an Asylumite incidentally if anyone was curious) Since then, there have been a number of changes to make it both more difficult to implode a newbie, and yet at the same time easier to self nuke a spammer. I've had quite a bit of input over many of the changes, though i got outvoted by people who aren't here anymore on the visibility of the karma numbers themselves. There are a few other tweaks still pending at this point, mainly aimed at new posters, but overall it does work most of the time. The admin ability to multi rate, and the reset Karma to 3.00 system compensate for the times it doesn't, though the admin multi rate can occasionally cause resentment as well so we use it sparingly.
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#56 May 17 2013 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I thought karma higher than 5 was just because someone managed to get rated up enough to get their average higher. Rateups are 6, so it's logical that eventually you could get over 5. My karma for instance is very slightly higher than 5


Yeah, thats the source of the bug. The bug itself was the "and whatever the result of the math, cap it at 5.00 when applying new rates" piece of code stopped working for several days, coupled with the system forgetting to look at the base karma before applying its new base karma on a user over 5.00. The bug is fixed now, so you essentially can't get an over 5.00 karma anymore unless you already have one.
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#57 May 17 2013 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
I thought karma higher than 5 was just because someone managed to get rated up enough to get their average higher. Rateups are 6, so it's logical that eventually you could get over 5. My karma for instance is very slightly higher than 5


Yeah, thats the source of the bug. The bug itself was the "and whatever the result of the math, cap it at 5.00 when applying new rates" piece of code stopped working for several days, coupled with the system forgetting to look at the base karma before applying its new base karma on a user over 5.00. The bug is fixed now, so you essentially can't get an over 5.00 karma anymore unless you already have one.

Karma still increases past 5 if you rate someone up... I just tested it on myself, and my karma went higher when I rated myself up.

Edited, May 17th 2013 5:02pm by Xsarus
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#58 May 17 2013 at 4:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Huh. thats supposed to be fixed. Must have re-broken. Your base karma appears to still be 5.00 though?

Edit, ok, thats wierd. Just tried it myself on your account. I wonder if the blocker code is just ignoring admin accounts, most of the other exception coding ignores admins, so that would make sense.

Edited, May 17th 2013 3:12pm by Kaolian
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#59 May 17 2013 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
nah, works on protein as well. It's always worked as far as I can tell, protein's karma has been pretty steadily increasing for as long as I've been watching it.

my base karma is 5 because my actual karma is so very slightly higher.


Edited, May 17th 2013 5:33pm by Xsarus
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#60 May 17 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not that I'm complaining or anything of course. Smiley: um

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#61 May 17 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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eh, we'll get it fixed someday then. it affects so few people though i'm not too worried about it.
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#62 May 17 2013 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
Wow.... that was some awesome history.

I never knew that FFXI had caused such a disturbance here.
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#63 May 17 2013 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread got much better than expected.
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#64 May 17 2013 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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I remember when I first started posting here on Allakhazam it was in the FFXI forums, but they had links to the OOT and Asylum right on the side bar of the main site, where as all the other skins didn't. I always thought it was weird, like they wanted to pull all the moogle@#%^ers into the OOT.
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#65 May 17 2013 at 7:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Like lambs to the slaughter.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#66 May 17 2013 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
Vataro wrote:
So here's a question. Who came up with this system?


The cybernetic ghost from xmas past from the future!

More colors should be added for names :3

edit: damn page 2...
I remember when you could rate each post in a thread, multiple times (?). It was back in '04 when I 1st came to the site under that other name, Tsukaremash*ta. People in all things =10 were harsh, and if they didn't like a comment they seemed to nuke user's posts. Around this same time is when all the Rate Up threads were the cool thing to do :p

Edited, May 17th 2013 11:16pm by Sandinmygum
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#67 May 18 2013 at 12:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
I remember when I first started posting here on Allakhazam it was in the FFXI forums, but they had links to the OOT and Asylum right on the side bar of the main site, where as all the other skins didn't. I always thought it was weird, like they wanted to pull all the moogle@#%^ers into the OOT.


For whatever reason, and I really to this day do not know why, the FFXI forums have typically had an obsessive collective hatred of off topic threads inside the gaming forums themselves. It's been persistant through the years, through waves of people, and seems to be one of the few things that entire segment of the forum stands united on. I suspect partially it derives from the personalities of the FFXI admins and then became ingrained as tradition. perhaps other aspects of it trended twards cultural, I dunno, but those links were present there specifically to try and shunt more of the off topic posts out of the FFXI gaming sections before the move thread feature was implemented.

It was also part of my evil plan to poach people for the Asylum and OOT, which at the time were rapidly hemoraghing members due to two of the most infamous guild implosions of all time (ok, technically it was kind of the same guild, but the name changed so it still counts)
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#68 May 18 2013 at 6:55 AM Rating: Decent
And the end result was my coming to the OOT.

Unintended consequences huh Kao?
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Olorinus the Ludicrous wrote:
The idea of old school is way more interesting than the reality
#69 May 18 2013 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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Man, thanks for the awesome history lesson Kao. This thread is going places.

Also, the old FFXI forums were fun sometimes, but I definitely agree that often they were way too srs bsns.
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#70 May 18 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
There is also the downrate penalty box too. Multiple negative rates in a row result in a -2.00 rate being applied, to drop a bad thread faster. So a rating string could look like:

Poster: 3.00
Poster: 3.00
Allegory: 1.00
Bob 1.00
3rd angry user -2.00

Rating a post positive 6.00 in between 1.00 rates resets the penalty hit rate.

Rates also do not count towards your base karma until you hit 15 posts. There is some weighting stuff in there as well

Man, Bob is such a @#%^ing karma kamper.
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#71 May 20 2013 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Best. Bug. Ever.

No. That would be the Lady Bug.
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#73 May 21 2013 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Iamadam wrote:
We haven't had a decent karma thread in a while.

Well, no one strives for "decent" karma so why would you make a thread about it?

I strove for it, and obtained it with the help of friends, back in ye olde days. I think I was probably default until around 4k posts. My low karma couldn't be helped, I started posting here when I was like 13.

I remember sometime after that I wanted to aim for sage, and then stop at sage. I stopped caring at some point though, I think it was when they changed up the color scheme.

----

Also, since this thread apparently turned into karma history -- I'll add in some facts and stories that haven't yet been mentioned. Back in the old days when the rating system still used a 1-5 drop box for each post with a rate button at the bottom of the page, posts with negative karma could still be viewed. However if my memory is correct this only applied to posts that started a thread. The thread would not be visible in the thread index on the page, but you could see that the thread still existed as the page was only showing "49/50 threads" for example. By having the link to the thread you could continue to access it and even continue to post in it.

There was one specific case I remember where AlienOne made a thread and it was nuked to -15 karma. A lot of the old ffxi forum crew continued posting in the thread and decided it would be hilarious and amazing if we rated the thread back up to where it was visible again. I think we even managed to get it back to at least sub-default before it got nuked again and locked or something. To be honest though I can't remember anything about how it ended.

Eventually they fixed this 'error' so that all posts in a thread couldn't be viewed when the OP went into negative karma, and at the same time it killed the ability to go to a random forum=whatever and make threads that nobody usually found out about.

Edited, May 21st 2013 6:06am by Deadgye
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#74 May 21 2013 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Best. Bug. Ever.
No. That would be the Lady Bug.
And whatta lady.
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#75 May 21 2013 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Deadgye wrote:
threads that nobody usually found out about.


A lot of that wasn't so much no one finding them, as it was no one doing anything about them. Usually if they didn't turn into a mega rate fest, we just ignored them or countered them elsewhere. Those posts still showed up on various things, as did large contiguous piles of rates and whatnot.
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#76 May 26 2013 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
Best. Bug. Ever.

No. That would be the Lady Bug.

Volkswagon!
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#77 May 26 2013 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Volkswagen ladybug!

Edited, May 26th 2013 8:53pm by Aethien
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#78 May 26 2013 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Smiley: disappointed

His Excellency Aethien wrote:


Edited, May 26th 2013 2:50pm by Shaowstrike
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#79 May 26 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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NO U
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#80 May 26 2013 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
NO U


SHUT IT SHIBARI LOVER!
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#81 May 26 2013 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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No shibari there, just a gag.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#82 May 26 2013 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
No shibari there, just a gag.


Around the neck, over the arms behind her back, and probably across the lower half of her body.
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#83 May 26 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
No shibari there, just a gag.


Around the neck, over the arms behind her back, and probably across the lower half of her body.


Google agrees, says her name is Lily Labeau as well.

(Google image search is a good tool).
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#84 May 26 2013 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
No shibari there, just a gag.


Around the neck, over the arms behind her back, and probably across the lower half of her body.
Nowhere near decorative enough though. But maybe i'm wrong about associating shibari mainly with the overcomplicated decorative tying up that takes aaaages to do.



Zip ties and bondage tape is so much easier. Or the industrial cling film they use to wrap up pallets.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#85 May 26 2013 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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Definitely not as elaborate as I've seen those Japanese bondage fetishes. It was really just around her neck and draped down the back as she pretended to have her arms tied up behind her. But then again, by the end of the set she had another prop that she needed her hands free to use so I forgive her.
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#87 May 29 2013 at 3:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Huh. Now I think I understand the distaste some people have about low count Gurus. =X *Cough*
#88 May 29 2013 at 7:49 AM Rating: Excellent
I can rate you down to Sage if you'd like.

Edited, May 29th 2013 8:50am by Xsarus
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#89 May 29 2013 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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Can you rate me up to guru then?
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#90 May 29 2013 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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Only if the check clears.
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#91 May 29 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Only if the check clears.


Shouldn't you be working with more reliable methods now?
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#92 May 29 2013 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Na na na na na na BATCOINS.
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#93 May 29 2013 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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Once I would have paid good batcoins to be green, now I feel more special being blue.
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#94 May 29 2013 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Na na na na na na BATCOINS.


Elinda wrote:
Once I would have paid good batcoins to be green, now I feel more special being blue.


Whatever helps you sleep at night.

colors being dependent on stylesheet can be annoying in discussions like this
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#95 May 29 2013 at 5:03 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
No shibari there, just a gag.


Around the neck, over the arms behind her back, and probably across the lower half of her body.
Nowhere near decorative enough though. But maybe i'm wrong about associating shibari mainly with the overcomplicated decorative tying up that takes aaaages to do.



Zip ties and bondage tape is so much easier. Or the industrial cling film they use to wrap up pallets.


They make self-stick-only tape.
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#96 May 29 2013 at 6:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
I can rate you down to Sage if you'd like.

Edited, May 29th 2013 8:50am by Xsarus


I was just remembering a comment someone made to me in an older thread. I didn't understand the dislike then, but didn't feel it warranted a question.
#97 May 29 2013 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I can't be red, I'd rather be blue. This halfway bullsh*t is just pissing me off.

That being said, the green does go well with the green beer bottle in my avatar.
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#98 May 30 2013 at 2:25 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Zip ties and bondage tape is so much easier. Or the industrial cling film they use to wrap up pallets.


They make self-stick-only tape.
Bondage tape is self-stick-only tape.
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#99 May 30 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
If I can't be red, I'd rather be blue. This halfway bullsh*t is just pissing me off.

That being said, the green does go well with the green beer bottle in my avatar.


That it does.
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#100 May 30 2013 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
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Brings attention to what matters.
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Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#101 May 30 2013 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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Vataro wrote:
So here's a question. Who came up with this system?


It was the guy who invented the Ouija board, I think.
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