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#1 Jan 10 2013 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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If microbes from earth can survive on Mars could we inadvertently be creating a new branch of life? Colonizing Mars with microbes that would eventually evolve to thrive in Mars' environment thereby creating the martians of the future?
#2 Jan 10 2013 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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#3 Jan 10 2013 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sounds like a much more cost-effective way to find life on Mars; makes you wonder why NASA is doing it that other way. Smiley: oyvey

Edited, Jan 10th 2013 11:27am by someproteinguy
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#4 Jan 10 2013 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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"If we can never find a[n Earth] microbe that can grow under conditions on another planet, then it starts implying that life may not exist on that other location," he said.
Genius Logic, right there.
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#5 Jan 10 2013 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Reminds me of one of the major plot points of Red Mars - the arguments over whether to release GMO lichen that could survive the bitter cold.
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#6 Jan 10 2013 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
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"If we can never find a[n Earth] microbe that can grow under conditions on another planet, then it starts implying that life may not exist on that other location," he said.
Genius Logic, right there.


Yeah I saw that as well. Rather idiotic conclusion that.
#7 Jan 10 2013 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Yodabunny wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Quote:
"If we can never find a[n Earth] microbe that can grow under conditions on another planet, then it starts implying that life may not exist on that other location," he said.
Genius Logic, right there.


Yeah I saw that as well. Rather idiotic conclusion that.


Ok. Maybe I'm missing something (I haven't see the context surrounding it), but why is that an idiotic conclusion? If we can't get any earth microbes to survive in the conditions on another planet, then it does strongly suggest those conditions aren't conducive to life (at least as we know it). Unless you were being sarcastic (like "genius logic" meaning it's so obvious it didn't need to be said)? Like I said, I don't know the context, so maybe I'm missing something.
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#8 Jan 10 2013 at 10:08 PM Rating: Decent
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It's an idiotic statement because life evolved for earth shouldn't survive on Mars. There is no expectation that it would. Life evolved to live in that climate wouldn't be expected to survive here. It's like saying fish don't survive in the desert so there must be no life in the desert.
#9 Jan 11 2013 at 12:07 AM Rating: Good
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Theoretically a lot of Earth pines would survive on Mars, given water. They are an OLDE species, and their tolerance for cold is phenomenal. They spit the water out of their cells when it gets to freezing temperatures, and basically turn their trunks into a block of tree ice.
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#10 Jan 11 2013 at 7:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yodabunny wrote:
It's like saying fish don't survive in the desert so there must be no life in the desert.

Not really. The statement is "If we can never find..." not "let's just throw a couple random things and say that's a day". Presumably you start by looking at the conditions you'd be introducing things to and trying to find microbes that would best survive that environment. Trips to Mars are rare enough that you're not going to send a giraffe for sh*ts and giggles.
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#11 Jan 11 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
It's like saying fish don't survive in the desert so there must be no life in the desert.

Not really. The statement is "If we can never find..." not "let's just throw a couple random things and say that's a day". Presumably you start by looking at the conditions you'd be introducing things to and trying to find microbes that would best survive that environment. Trips to Mars are rare enough that you're not going to send a giraffe for sh*ts and giggles.
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#12 Jan 11 2013 at 9:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Trips to Mars are rare enough that you're not going to send a giraffe for sh*ts and giggles.
That's not to say we shouldn't.
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#13 Jan 11 2013 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Reminds me of one of the major plot points of Red Mars - the arguments over whether to release GMO lichen that could survive the bitter cold.


And the major plot point of Red Planet was that the native Mars life would consume the lichen by the time the science team arrived.
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#14 Jan 11 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Default
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Yodabunny wrote:
It's an idiotic statement because life evolved for earth shouldn't survive on Mars. There is no expectation that it would.


Not all life, but some? Absolutely. Why would you think differently?

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Life evolved to live in that climate wouldn't be expected to survive here.


It would be expected to survive in a similar climate. What planet that climate happens to exist on isn't that relevant. I suspect you're thinking of higher order animals, but we're talking about very simple organisms here.

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It's like saying fish don't survive in the desert so there must be no life in the desert.


No. It's like saying that if no single form of life we know of can survive in that desert, then the odds of naturally occurring life in that desert are low. Because something should be able to survive there. Life on earth is incredibly varied. Environments on earth are as well. Some of them much much more harsh than that on mars. If we can't find anything that survives on mars, then it doesn't preclude some completely different form of life evolving there, but it makes the odds much lower than if we can find things from earth that survive on mars. It's a probability statement, not an absolute one. I suspect you're just looking at it backwards. If we can find life from earth that survives on mars, then that indicates good odds that life did (or at least could have) evolved/existed on mars (at some point at least). If we can't, then the odds become lower.


It's like if you want to determine if someone could have climbed a cliff without a rope. You might find the best cliff climbers in the world and see if they can climb the cliff without a rope. If they can, then it means that someone else could have. If none of them can, then it means the odds that someone else did is low. It's not bad logic. It's quite good logic.

Edited, Jan 11th 2013 2:02pm by gbaji
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#15 Jan 11 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Some of them much much more harsh than that on mars.

Smiley: dubious
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#16 Jan 11 2013 at 4:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Some of them much much more harsh than that on mars.

Smiley: dubious


Volcanic vents spewing boiling sulfuric acid can objectively be considered a more harsh environment than some environments on mars.
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#17 Jan 11 2013 at 4:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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"Objectively"? Not really. Since those oceanic regions contain live-sustaining properties lacking from your "less harsh" Martian environments. Namely, liquid water. And a more benign surrounding environment from which additional food can drift.

Already "harsh" becomes a subjective term. A 110 degree F desert or boiling volcanic vent on Earth is less harsh for life than an area consistently 63 degrees F with a light northwesterly wind... and absolutely zero liquid water at all, period.
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#18 Jan 11 2013 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
"Objectively"? Not really. Since those oceanic regions contain live-sustaining properties lacking from your "less harsh" Martian environments. Namely, liquid water. And a more benign surrounding environment from which additional food can drift.


Except in some cases we're talking about microbes which feed off sulfides directly. Has nothing to do with other things living in the water in other conditions. These creatures could not survive except in the vents they're feeding off of. Certainly, the presence of liquid water in the area around the vents likely was involved in these forms of life evolving in the first place, but the fact that they could evolve and adapt to such an incredibly harsh (yes, I'm using that term again) environment is pretty darn amazing.

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Already "harsh" becomes a subjective term. A 110 degree F desert or boiling volcanic vent on Earth is less harsh for life than an area consistently 63 degrees F with a light northwesterly wind... and absolutely zero liquid water at all, period.


Consistently cool and dry is kinda on the mild end of "harsh" IMO. Lack of liquid water (at least on the surface) is a problem, but there are lots of organisms which live without liquid water here on earth (more correctly, they don't require water around them to be liquid to live). It seems quite reasonable that if such things exist here, they could (or did, or even do) exist on mars. Which was somewhat of the point in the first place.
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#19 Jan 11 2013 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
but the fact that they could evolve and adapt to such an incredibly harsh (yes, I'm using that term again) environment is pretty darn amazing.

Harsh, sure. Harsher than Mars? Probably not.

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Consistently cool and dry is kinda on the mild end of "harsh" IMO.

Good, you understand that it's your opinion and not objective in any sense. We made progress today. Smiley: smile
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