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Speaking ill of the deceased...Follow

#1 Nov 27 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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TL;DR if a terrible person dies, is there ever an appropriate time to point out that they were terrible? Or do you just keep your thoughts to yourself?

Those with good memories (or a Locke-stalking obsession) may recall me talking a few years ago about a friend of mine who was raped by a classmate. Turns out the guy died in a motorcycle accident last night. My friend called me up quite upset, because she didn't know how to feel about it and about the town's reaction to his death... which has been to praise and mourn the deceased. I understand that's the nature of things, but I can also understand why it is so upsetting for her. On the article page about the accident many people are talking about his time on the high school Academic Team (which she was also on, and cornered and raped by him twice away from the rest of the group), and in the local community college (which she also attended, but made sure to stay far away from him). According to her, he was always high and she thinks the accident was likely due to him DUI (currently police are investigating conflicting witness reports about who had the right of way). But again, the outpouring of support has been completely positive... and in a town with a lot of proud motorcyclists, the messages that aren't supporting him are at least completely against the girl he crashed into. Meanwhile my friend is not sure how to react to the situation; she knows at least one other girl he assaulted (a 14-year old when he was 18), and believes there a lot more. But how can she point that out?

I told her that she'll likely just need to bite her tongue and ignore any news about him, because speaking about her experiences will just make people turn on her instead. At the same time I think it's unfair that people will support this guy without knowing the truth. Reminds me of a classmate of mine who died in Afghanistan last year; there was a huge outpouring of support, but I knew that he regularly terrorized and beat his mother and younger sisters (no father at home). I thought him getting shipped off to Afghanistan was the best thing possible for the family because they were finally free from him. But once he died, it was all sunshine and puppies.

Bah, I think I know the answer here but it's frustrating anyway. At least my friend doesn't need to worry about him any more and no other girls will be hurt by the guy. I guess that's the best compensation she can have for keeping quiet.

Edited, Nov 27th 2012 8:59am by LockeColeMA
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#2 Nov 27 2012 at 8:07 AM Rating: Good
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LockeColeMA wrote:
TL;DR if a terrible person dies, is there ever an appropriate time to point out that they were terrible?

To what end? The guy is dead.



Edited, Nov 27th 2012 3:07pm by Elinda
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#3 Nov 27 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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The best time is during the wake, while under the influence of a lot of alcohol.
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#4 Nov 27 2012 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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#5 Nov 27 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
TL;DR if a terrible person dies, is there ever an appropriate time to point out that they were terrible?


Yes. Case study: Hitler. I win. Godwin.
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#6 Nov 27 2012 at 9:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
Bah, I think I know the answer here but it's frustrating anyway. At least my friend doesn't need to worry about him any more and no other girls will be hurt by the guy. I guess that's the best compensation she can have for keeping quiet.
You might try to get together with her if possible for lunch or something of that nature. No problem speaking ill of the dead if everyone present wants to do so. Though I suspect that more than anything she just doesn't want to hear about him at all, good or ill.
#7 Nov 27 2012 at 10:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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LockeColeMA wrote:
TL;DR if a terrible person dies, is there ever an appropriate time to point out that they were terrible? Or do you just keep your thoughts to yourself?


******* is an *******, but yeah, don't go telling his family and friends while they're mourning him. Smiley: rolleyes

Wait a while if you really want to rant; better yet call up a therapist and vent. However if people start getting on you, asking why you're not all in tears over the tragic death, all bets are off.
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#8 Nov 27 2012 at 10:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'd say to avoid the topic and keep it to yourself unless you're specifically asked about it. In that case I'd go with something along the lines of "the guy raped me, I'm not sorry he's gone".
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#9 Nov 27 2012 at 10:47 AM Rating: Good
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Why would you care?
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#10 Nov 27 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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"It's a sad time for his family." Then change the subject. I knew someone who went through a similar scenario and she said "My memories of him are my own and I choose to remember him in my own way." It was an incredibly polite and gracious way to get out of speaking about that ********
#11 Nov 27 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Another example: Saville.

Quote:
To what end? The guy is dead.


If no-one will speak ill of a dead criminal, their crime is erased. A funeral is supposed to be an occasion of rememberance, not revisionism.
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#12 Nov 27 2012 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk wrote:
Another example: Saville.

Quote:
To what end? The guy is dead.


If no-one will speak ill of a dead criminal, their crime is erased. A funeral is supposed to be an occasion of rememberance, not revisionism.
No one suggested lying about the guy.

This isn't the same as Saville. The accusation of rape, according to Locke, was made years ago. Apparently the accusation didn't stick, for whatever reason. Why bring it up again just because the guy is dead?







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#13 Nov 27 2012 at 2:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally I've never understood the need to change one's outward opinion of another person just because they're dead.
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#14 Nov 27 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Personally I've never understood the need to change one's outward opinion of another person just because they're dead.

Dead people are all good and kind. They're proto-zombies.
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#15 Nov 27 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, if I were you, Lock, I'd tell her to bite her tongue or politely excuse herself from the conversation, and if it starts to grate on her, she can call you and trash talk him all day long. Imagine your best friend died and someone came up to you while you were mourning him and said, "Man, that guy was a douche. He raped this chick I knew in high school." Not only would you be pretty upset, you're also more likely not to believe it right then. The point of telling people what he did, in my opinion, is to keep him from dong it to anyone else. Since that's not a concern, she should just avoid the situation until it dies down then forget about the ********
#16 Nov 27 2012 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
Yeah, if I were you, Lock, I'd tell her to bite her tongue or politely excuse herself from the conversation, and if it starts to grate on her, she can call you and trash talk him all day long. Imagine your best friend died and someone came up to you while you were mourning him and said, "Man, that guy was a douche. He raped this chick I knew in high school." Not only would you be pretty upset, you're also more likely not to believe it right then. The point of telling people what he did, in my opinion, is to keep him from dong it to anyone else. Since that's not a concern, she should just avoid the situation until it dies down then forget about the ********


Pretty much what I told her to do. Sure, it sucks for her that the guy who turned her world upside down is being praised left and right as a wonderful saint, but it's not like telling them the other side of the story would do anything productive now.
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#17 Nov 27 2012 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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An anonymous letter to the editor of the local paper from a "third party"? That way she can feel like she said what was on her mind but won't have to take the heat of looking like she is an attention *****. And if the newspaper doesn't publish anything she can at least feel like she got it off her chest.
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#18 Nov 27 2012 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Another example: Saville.

Quote:
To what end? The guy is dead.


If no-one will speak ill of a dead criminal, their crime is erased. A funeral is supposed to be an occasion of rememberance, not revisionism.
No one suggested lying about the guy.

This isn't the same as Saville. The accusation of rape, according to Locke, was made years ago. Apparently the accusation didn't stick, for whatever reason. Why bring it up again just because the guy is dead?


I didn't suggest that anything was the same as Saville, I gave him as an example of when it would definitely be right to speak ill of the dead. In a seperate paragraph, I gave a general comment about the need to speak ill of dead criminals when a bunch of people are signing their praises.

I wasn't aware she'd accused him in any formal sense at any point.

I'm not suggesting it be brought up just because he's dead (arguable, though; if you wanted to avoid the process of a trial, removing libel from the equation allows you to do just that). I'm suggesting that his death shouldn't preclude the speaking of the truth. I'm suggesting that it is wrong and harmful for his death, or his funeral, to become the foundation for the construction of a false history. There's a big difference between focusing on the good parts of a normal person's life and whitewashing a crime. If you say that a murderer or a rapist was a great guy, that's exactly what you're doing.

[quote]The point of telling people what he did, in my opinion, is to keep him from dong it to anyone else. Since that's not a concern, she should just avoid the situation until it dies down then forget about the ****************

Agreed, she should keep her mouth shut. It's very impolite to be raped.

Social recognition of a wrong is very important, especially in a context where it is so often denied. Neither of you seem to understand this.
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#19 Nov 27 2012 at 3:38 PM Rating: Decent
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That way she can feel like she said what was on her mind but won't have to take the heat of looking like she is an attention *****.


That's an excellent choice of words. Well said.
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#20 Nov 27 2012 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Another example: Saville.
Quote:
To what end? The guy is dead.
If no-one will speak ill of a dead criminal, their crime is erased. A funeral is supposed to be an occasion of rememberance, not revisionism.
No one suggested lying about the guy.


Except perhaps by lie of omission
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#21 Nov 27 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:

[quote]The point of telling people what he did, in my opinion, is to keep him from dong it to anyone else. Since that's not a concern, she should just avoid the situation until it dies down then forget about the ****************

Agreed, she should keep her mouth shut. It's very impolite to be raped.

Social recognition of a wrong is very important, especially in a context where it is so often denied. Neither of you seem to understand this.


No, I don't understand why it's so important, and you haven't really explained it. If she wasn't willing to tell people when it happened, why is it so important to tell this guy's mother that he was a rapey ******* at his funeral? Especially given that this is a time when most people would consider the accusation as being false and just a way to call attention to herself. Seems to me like it would do more harm than good at this point.

#22 Nov 27 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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I am the kind of person that says f-you to everyone. I am always honest, do not confuse it with truthful, and so if you do not like or want honesty ignore me. A friend of mine died, had a lot of horrible things in his past and good as well, that I spoke about everything. Alot of people hated me, some still do after five years, but there were those like his family who were grateful to know the truth.

If your friend is strong enough to face it, and has support if she isn't, then she should also share what wrong he did. As long as she find some peace with the entire thing is more important then just outting him or letting him be painted a hero. If it is to talk to his family privately then so be it. If it is to do as said before and send a letter to the local paper then have her do it.

No one is without some negative light in their past.
#23 Nov 27 2012 at 4:40 PM Rating: Good
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Dude, I understand her conflicted emotions, but she should take comfort in the fact that he is DEAD. No kind words will ever bring him back, no harsh words will ever make him deader. Karma got him for being a disgusting human, as soon as the novelty of his death dies off so will the memory of him and he will just vanish into existence.

She, on the other hand, is still alive, and unless she wants to give him further satisfaction of her suffering, she needs to work on forgetting about him like everyone else will.
#24 Nov 27 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Typical expected response in this particular situation is to dig up the grave, defecate in the coffin, steal the head off the corpse and hide it somewhere horrible, like a septic tank, and spraypaint whatever horrible thing that person did on their headstone. This is particularily effectuve because only people who do things so bad as to merit that response get things like that done to them, so you immidiatly remove all doubt that the person was an ******* and needed to die, and you get to have fun doing it!

For the record, Steve Jobs was a Goat Raping *************
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#25 Nov 27 2012 at 5:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Guenny wrote:
Karma got him for being a disgusting human, as soon as the novelty of his death dies off so will the memory of him and he will just vanish into existence.


Technically, CARma got him.

Yeah, I went there. Smiley: cool
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#26 Nov 27 2012 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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