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#52 Jun 06 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?
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#53 Jun 06 2012 at 11:53 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
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You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?


If the grocery stores suddenly stopped selling beef, I wouldn't go out a buy and slaughter my own cows.
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#54 Jun 06 2012 at 12:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Quote:
You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?


If the grocery stores suddenly stopped selling beef, I wouldn't go out a buy and slaughter my own cows.
Of course not, you'd go to the butcher.
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#55 Jun 06 2012 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
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You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?

Stupid pleasure argument is stupid.
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#56 Jun 06 2012 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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Kalivha wrote:
It's not actually haraam to give food you can't eat to those who can (only with alcohol it is). I have a friend who is crazy paranoid about halal issues and even she ended up giving some random yoghurt that contained pork gelatine to her non-Muslim neighbours.


I've been confused about a few texts from the Quran on the whole haraam food thing. Maybe you can explain to me or ask one of your buddies on the matter.

Quran 002.173 wrote:

YUSUFALI: He hath only forbidden you dead meat, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that on which any other name hath been invoked besides that of Allah. But if one is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- then is he guiltless. For Allah is Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: He hath forbidden you only carrion, and blood, and swineflesh, and that which hath been immolated to (the name of) any other than Allah. But he who is driven by necessity, neither craving nor transgressing, it is no sin for him. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


I might be interpreting it wrong but let me give it a shot; the three bold texts state that out of necessity it would not be haraam to ingest the forbidden. So if they were starving and the only livestock around was a pig by eating it out of necessity to survive it would not be haraam? Or am I completely off?

It seems though that giving something that is haraam to someone is kind of messed up because they are knowingly causing someone to commit haraam which displeases their deity. Is there a law which forbids leading people into haraam?
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#57 Jun 06 2012 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The simple answer is to move to a **** country where they don't give a **** what you eat.
#58 Jun 06 2012 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
The simple answer is to move to a @#%^ing country where they don't give a sh*t what you eat.


So how would you feel then if the FDA passed a regulation so fast food places can no longer serve anything bigger than a medium portion by today's standard of what "medium" is?

In circa 2004 many high schools in the state of Washington discontinued coke/pepsi machines in the cafeterias and additionally stopped frying foods.

Upon this the U.S. Navy also has removed deep fryers from galleys on many ships and will no longer be installed on any new ships being built.

In Islamic countries there is religious ideology regarding laws on food consumption but the U.S. does something to the same effect with the food and drug administration.

The fact that anyone would have a hissy fit over being told they can't eat something is ridiculous. One's taste buds and stomach should not rule their life.

The point though is; Kalivha obviously cares more about their culture and is willing to conform. Also she doesn't like pork.
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#59 Jun 06 2012 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Sogoro wrote:

So how would you feel then if the FDA passed a regulation so fast food places can no longer serve anything bigger than a medium portion by today's standard of what "medium" is?
Local radio station poses a question every day for the mind numbingly ignorant public to call in on and voice their opinion. The one today was if the Regional Municipality should ban large drinks at fast food locations. I'll hear some of the stupid responses on the way home or tomorrow morning, but why would anyone think they have the right to dictate to someone else whether or not they can order a large beverage?
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#60 Jun 06 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
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You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?


Yup, but I take no pleasure in the slaughter itself.

We could also argue that "taste" a part of our survival instinct, which includes a desire to eat certain foods in order to replenish lost resources, and a varied meal in order to stay healthy. That is the psychological explanation as to why some humans, when presented with a buffet, have a tendency to pick a bit of everything instead of a lot of one thing.

Ever had a craving for a particular food? Whenever I get a cold, I begin to crave bell peppers. When you get an infection, your body burns through vitamin C like crazy. We cannot create vitamin C in our bodies ourselves, so we have to ingest it. Bell peppers contain, among other things, a high concentration of vitamin C.

Can we be held accountable for neurobiological and completely autonomous functions? And are you saying that if we enjoy eating meat, supporting a less cruel way to acquire the meat is hypocritical?
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#61 Jun 06 2012 at 1:37 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sogoro wrote:
So how would you feel then if the FDA passed a regulation so fast food places can no longer serve anything bigger than a medium portion by today's standard of what "medium" is?
Local radio station poses a question every day for the mind numbingly ignorant public to call in on and voice their opinion. The one today was if the Regional Municipality should ban large drinks at fast food locations. I'll hear some of the stupid responses on the way home or tomorrow morning, but why would anyone think they have the right to dictate to someone else whether or not they can order a large beverage?
Looks like the Wrath of Bloomberg reaches the Great White North airwaves.

Edited, Jun 6th 2012 3:38pm by lolgaxe
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#62 Jun 06 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
I have mixed feelings on it. On one hand, it seems like a lot of people (and I'm not guilt-free of this) lack the ability to use their willpower to eat a balanced diet. Maybe it would be better for the government to have a small amount of control to help people eat healthier. On the other hand, I'm a big fan of having the freedom to do what I want with my body.

The large soda thing is stupid though. If people care enough, they'll just get a refill on the medium soda, or buy two of them.
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#63 Jun 06 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sogoro wrote:
So how would you feel then if the FDA passed a regulation so fast food places can no longer serve anything bigger than a medium portion by today's standard of what "medium" is?
Local radio station poses a question every day for the mind numbingly ignorant public to call in on and voice their opinion. The one today was if the Regional Municipality should ban large drinks at fast food locations. I'll hear some of the stupid responses on the way home or tomorrow morning, but why would anyone think they have the right to dictate to someone else whether or not they can order a large beverage?
Looks like the Wrath of Bloomberg reaches the Great White North airwaves.

Edited, Jun 6th 2012 3:38pm by lolgaxe

Yeah, but with his proposal, it's not a question of not ordering a large. Around here, if that law were to pass, you couldn't even order small beverages at most places, iirc. It'd be "child size" only.

Edited, Jun 6th 2012 1:58pm by Poldaran
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#64 Jun 06 2012 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Sogoro wrote:

So how would you feel then if the FDA passed a regulation so fast food places can no longer serve anything bigger than a medium portion by today's standard of what "medium" is?
Local radio station poses a question every day for the mind numbingly ignorant public to call in on and voice their opinion. The one today was if the Regional Municipality should ban large drinks at fast food locations. I'll hear some of the stupid responses on the way home or tomorrow morning, but why would anyone think they have the right to dictate to someone else whether or not they can order a large beverage?


I suppose because research and statistics finds its way into lawmakers minds. Or lobbyists...it could be that too.

The responses I have heard are always along the lines of people being incapable of eating healthy and that the statistics show obesity is rampart in America. Like the stereotype of "Everything is bigger in Texas." Albeit I do believe the obesity rate in Texas is pretty high.

That being said one could go out on a limb and say that because people are incapable of staying healthy they are indirectly causing problems for the rest of society. Though that is rather stretching it.

The FDA regulates different things based on research as far as I know. I do feel though that I personally wouldn't be bothered by that regulation being placed. As I know how to consume in moderation. Now someone who cannot control their stomach I would assume it would **** them off.

Now then I see no reason why a fast food place couldn't dictate their portion sizes. A business I think does have the right to dictate what their customers can order.

Your question of who can dictate what is something I cannot answer as there are far too many variables that can give support to either side of the argument. The idea of benefiting the whole can be used and the idea that people can make their own choices can be used. So whatever happens happens. Either suck it up princess or start a movement to change said things.
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#65 Jun 06 2012 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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The idea of whether or not the government can force you to do something in your own best interest (which itself is a stretch in this case) is debatable in this country at least. Which is fine, because I don't particularly trust our government to do that very well.

In the end I'll mostly care about the people who have the same insurance carrier as myself. Even then as long as the unhealthy people pay more in insurance premiums I'm really fine with it. I assume that's where some part of the urge for regulation comes in. Besides generally caring about my neighbor and wanting them to be healthy and happy, having to pay extra for their bad lifestyle choices isn't fun.
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#66 Jun 06 2012 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
having to pay extra for their bad lifestyle choices isn't fun.


I think that may be the argument's main fighting point that when someone's choices starts affecting others. Kind of like one bad apple ruins the bunch. Everyone is affected.

Alas life is not fair.

Edited, Jun 6th 2012 1:53pm by Sogoro
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#67 Jun 06 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
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You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.


You eat meat because you like the way it tastes, no?


Yup, but I take no pleasure in the slaughter itself.


I don't consider that morally relevant.

Quote:
Can we be held accountable for neurobiological and completely autonomous functions? And are you saying that if we enjoy eating meat, supporting a less cruel way to acquire the meat is hypocritical?


You can be held accountable for indulging them, of course. What a strange question.

And no, that's not exactly what I was saying. I find it hard to take the condemnation of more cruel methods seriously. I'll try and explain.

I don't think less of people who eat meat because they regard the animals they eat as biological machines that are, in a sense, incapable of suffering. But the people that get all bleeding heart about animal pain? They can't believe that. It's hard to respect someone who chooses to kill what they believe to be a moral subject for the sake of a tasty snack.
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#68 Jun 06 2012 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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If this was a Provincial discussion, I could understand it as they pay for Healthcare, although I still disagree with it. However, this is being brought up at the municipal level.
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#69 Jun 06 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I don't think less of people who eat meat because they regard the animals they eat as biological machines that are, in a sense, incapable of suffering. But the people that get all bleeding heart about animal pain? They can't believe that. It's hard to respect someone who chooses to kill what they believe to be a moral subject for the sake of a tasty snack.


Smiley: dubious

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#70 Jun 06 2012 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Sogoro, regarding that passage, basically it's fine to eat whatever if there's no choice - it depends on individual where that line is and obviously there are "official" rulings (as far as anything is official in mainstream Islam), but there are some people (converts) who will eat half a pig with red wine sauce for Christmas (celebrating Christmas is also at the very least discouraged) for the sake of keeping their family happy. I'll just say that the argument for doing this is rather weak (parents are important, but we shouldn't indulge their disbelief - I'd give a citation but I'm tired right now) but ultimately it's up to the individual and people making such a huge deal about diet is kind of a PR thing anyway.


Edit: I think the standard interpretation would be that yes, if there's nothing else edible within a mile of where you are, it's okay to go cook that boar carcass you found by the roadside.

I'm basing this on the fact that the same applies for washing if there is no water (i.e. a mile's radius of no clean/halal water) - you can use stones or sand in that case instead. I don't know the details because I can usually find water, and if I have to wash my feet in the kitchen sink, so be it!

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 6:00am by Kalivha
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#71 Jun 07 2012 at 6:08 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
I don't think less of people who eat meat because they regard the animals they eat as biological machines that are, in a sense, incapable of suffering. But the people that get all bleeding heart about animal pain? They can't believe that. It's hard to respect someone who chooses to kill what they believe to be a moral subject for the sake of a tasty snack.


Smiley: dubious

Which group do you belong to?

Vegetarians/Vegans most likely. The "you don't have the right to kill something for pleasure" thing is one of their stock arguments.

Here are the others.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 8:12am by Nilatai
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#72 Jun 07 2012 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
They really need to update some of their arguments. That cholesterol section in particular seems to be a holdover from the old days.

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Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)
Yeah, these folks need some protein and fat in their diets. Their brains have stopped functioning. Smiley: laugh
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#73 Jun 07 2012 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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The Dave Scott section is wrong, too. Since he stopped being a strict vegetarian like 20 years ago.
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#74 Jun 07 2012 at 7:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.
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#75 Jun 07 2012 at 7:37 AM Rating: Good
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It's kind of a weird argument, anyway. I mean, I haven't seen too many Argentinosaurus walking around either.
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#76 Jun 07 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Largest meat eater that ever lived: Tyrannosaurus Rex (Where is he today?)
He evolved into the vulture, so that he had the opportunity to feast on weak-ass herbivores that collapse in a heap from lack of protein.
#77 Jun 07 2012 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.


Don't blue whales filter feed on krill (small shrimp) and aren't they many times more massive than a T. Rex was?
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#78 Jun 07 2012 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.


Don't blue whales filter feed on krill (small shrimp) and aren't they many times more massive than a T. Rex was?

Krill aren't cute and cuddly.
#79 Jun 07 2012 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.


Don't blue whales filter feed on krill (small shrimp) and aren't they many times more massive than a T. Rex was?

Krill aren't cute and cuddly.


My statement was in respone to the T. Rex being the largest carnivore to ever live.
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#80 Jun 07 2012 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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Blue Whale never won Ironman Triathlon.
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#81 Jun 07 2012 at 8:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.


Don't blue whales filter feed on krill (small shrimp) and aren't they many times more massive than a T. Rex was?

Krill aren't cute and cuddly.


My statement was in respone to the T. Rex being the largest carnivore to ever live.
I'm saying the blue whale doesn't count as a carnivore, because krill aren't cute and cuddly.
#82 Jun 07 2012 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
The more I think about it, the part I find funniest about what I quoted isn't that the extinction has nothing to do with meat. It's that the Spinosaurus was bigger.


Don't blue whales filter feed on krill (small shrimp) and aren't they many times more massive than a T. Rex was?

Krill aren't cute and cuddly.


My statement was in respone to the T. Rex being the largest carnivore to ever live.
I'm saying the blue whale doesn't count as a carnivore, because krill aren't cute and cuddly.


I don't think any of the animals T. Rex was eating were cute and cuddly either...
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#83 Jun 07 2012 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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Shrimp isn't halal kosher anyway.

(Honestly, I don't know if it's halal. People just kinda decide that on their own, but it's pretty normal in the Western part of the Middle East and SE Asia to eat them.)
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#84 Jun 07 2012 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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Anything from the sea is halal as far as the Quran is concerned, though like any religion I'm sure there are sects with exceptions.

Maliki scholars say it's okay, Hanafi say no which means Maliki are clearly the smarter ones.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 11:15am by lolgaxe
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#85 Jun 07 2012 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Meh, I tend to go by Hanafi rulings because the parts where it matters are much more sensible (regarding lady problems, mostly). Plus, the Ahmadiyya Jamaat are (mostly) Hanafi and save for a few things Ahmadiyya views tend to be a lot more... sensible where it matters (say, when it comes to science) so even if I don't believe in their theology all the time I kinda go by their rulings on a lot of stuff like this.

The more annoying part is where Red 40 (the standard red food dye used in Skittles, Kool-Aid and a great number of other tasty things) is traditionally (although as far as I can tell not really in practice) made from insects and eating insects is kind of the same as eating shrimp, so since the source is unknown it's discouraged to eat/drink things containing it - except where unknown sources are actually supposed to be okay by default. I don't want to live in a world without Pink Lemonade Kool-Aid.

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#86 Jun 07 2012 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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So how much longer til telling us how cool it is to not eat certain foods becomes boring, and you can start talking like a normal person again?
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AshOnMyTomatoes wrote:
So how much longer til telling us how cool it is to not eat certain foods becomes boring, and you can start talking like a normal person again?
I don't think KAli has ever been what you'd consider to be a "normal person" Smiley: tongue
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#88 Jun 07 2012 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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How is complaining about not eating Skittles telling you how cool it is? Smiley: lol
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#89 Jun 07 2012 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
I went through a vegetarian "phase" a couple years ago. It was... odd. Basically what happened was when I took my first yoga class, I completely lost my tastes for meat. Except for the occasional fish. I'm still not sure why. For the most part, I wasn't one of those annoying vegetarians that are all preachy and stuff, but I do remember one time sitting there listening to a couple friends talk about butchering lambs, and I got so upset I started crying. It's certainly easier to eat healthy as a "normal" eater, but I do still think that overall being a vegetarian is probably healthier. But, I will admit that a lot of those so called arguments on that webpage are horse ****

In particular, the one on hunger. People don't starve because we don't have enough food, people starve because food is too **** expensive. It's only gotten worse since we started using corn for biofuel. That caused the price of corn to go up a lot in developing countries, which made it more difficult for the locals to purchase it.
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#90 Jun 07 2012 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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In most developed countries, corn is not a staple usually unless we want Mexican.

On being vegetarian: When I was 16 I decided to be a vegetarian because my brother is one and my brother is cool. Then I moved to America and the people I lived with were very anti-vegetarian and made me eat tuna and shrimp and, at one point, bacon. Then when I moved back to Germany, I moved in with people who didn't want to cook separately for me (we had a rota) and didn't want to eat anything that didn't either contain fried chicken or ham. So that didn't work out and I can still be like my brother in other ways.

Edited, Jun 7th 2012 6:50pm by Kalivha
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#91 Jun 07 2012 at 11:48 AM Rating: Good
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I was a vegetarian because of a girl for a short time. The lesson I learned was that it was much easier to get steak than sex.

Worst day of my life.
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#92 Jun 07 2012 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I used to only cook vegetarian at home because I didn't know how to prepare meat in a way that I liked.

Then I learned how to cook Bengali/Pakistani food. Still doesn't work with pork (I tried and it tastes weird), imo.
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#93 Jun 07 2012 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Vegetarians/Vegans most likely. The "you don't have the right to kill something for pleasure" thing is one of their stock arguments.

Here are the others.


oh no you got me

busted
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#94 Jun 07 2012 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
I said developing, Kali, not developed. Smiley: smile
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#95 Jun 07 2012 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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Kalivha wrote:
In most developed countries, corn is not a staple usually unless we want Mexican.


Corn flakes.
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#96 Jun 07 2012 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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Oh, I edited to change that.

As far as I can see corn isn't really a thing here, either, though. Except for street food / pop corn stands every few yards... Smiley: lol
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#97 Jun 07 2012 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
Kalivha wrote:
Oh, I edited to change that.

As far as I can see corn isn't really a thing here, either, though. Except for street food / pop corn stands every few yards... Smiley: lol


It's a New World crop, technically, so I wouldn't expect to see it too much. This day and age, sure, world markets and all that. Just not as much as you see it in, say, the Midwest U.S.
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#98 Jun 07 2012 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it's very American. Asia has rice and wheat for everything. Also, cane sugar.
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#99 Jun 08 2012 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
Don't they use corn for lots of their food in Africa though? I remember reading an article a few years ago about people in Africa not being able to afford corn because the price had sky rocketed after it started being used for bio diesel.
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#100 Jun 08 2012 at 1:05 AM Rating: Good
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I don't know a lot about African food, to be honest. Not beyond some strange sweets and nice stuff to put on pasta.
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#101 Jun 08 2012 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Flies and cheetah?
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