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I put on my robe and... well, I feel like a wizard. Follow

#27 Jun 03 2012 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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I like steak as much as the next guy, but I see no reason why my cow should be conscious during the exsanguination.
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#28 Jun 03 2012 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think that's actually a halal rule. It's probably some Salafi rubbish. It's not practiced consistently anyway.
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#29 Jun 03 2012 at 2:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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To be fair, the historical religious ban on pork products was because of trichinosis.

Now we know to salt cure or sanitize our pork products with antibacterial herbs in sausages.
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#30 Jun 03 2012 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Kalivha wrote:
I don't think that's actually a halal rule. It's probably some Salafi rubbish. It's not practiced consistently anyway.

No, it is. The animal isn't allowed to be stunned in any way. Like I said, it's more or less exactly the same as Kosher slaughter. The only difference is the prayers.
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#31 Jun 03 2012 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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Dude, I'm pretty sure that is Salafi doctrine because people constantly bicker about whether it's true or not.
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#32 Jun 04 2012 at 1:50 AM Rating: Decent
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you look beautiful! I love it =)
#33 Jun 04 2012 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kalivha wrote:
Dude, I'm pretty sure that is Salafi doctrine because people constantly bicker about whether it's true or not.


The way I understand it, halal meat is currently meat from a Dhabihah slaughter. And Dhabihah slaughtering is done by slitting the animal's throat and leaving it to bleed out. This is done to prevent the animal from dying before being slaughtered (death by slaughter is exsanguination in this context), which would make it carrion according to the Qur'an, and thus haraam and not halal.

Am I getting it right so far?

Now, the problem with slitting an animal's throat is that it doesn't kill it instantly. You sever the wind pipe, the arteries and all that, but you leave the spine intact. The animal is conscious until the blood loss becomes so great that unconsciousness occurs. And as with any wound, clotting can happen, which leads to ballooning. Ballooning is when a blood clot shuts off a vein. It's the body's way of trying to minimize blood loss. This can happen during exsanguination and while the animal still dies due to, you know, having its head almost cut off, the process is delayed.

According to a report by Compassion In World Farming, ballooning happens in up to sixty percent of the cases of Dhabihah slaughtering.

Now, if some Muslims decide that stunning the animal is okay, good for them, but when you go to the Pakistani deli on the corner and order halal meat, how do you think they slaughtered that animal? Electrocuted it? Gassed it? Or Dhabihah?
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#34 Jun 04 2012 at 6:48 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
when you go to the Pakistani deli on the corner and order halal meat, how do you think they slaughtered that animal?
Unless it makes a significant difference in how it tastes, then it's not exactly something I think about.
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#35 Jun 04 2012 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Now, if some Muslims decide that stunning the animal is okay, good for them, but when you go to the Pakistani deli on the corner and order halal meat, how do you think they slaughtered that animal? Electrocuted it? Gassed it? Or Dhabihah?


In the UK (as well as Germany, Thailand, Malaysia and a load of other places), there is a standard for labeling (handing out certificates) - not all halal meat has proper certificates to begin with, but the kind that doesn't has been known to be mixed with pork and there's been all sort of other business, which is why the certificates are there in the first place. Depending on certificate, the meat might be zabihah or not or slaughtered by Shias or whatever, and I don't have complete knowledge of this (because I don't care enough to go beyond checking that there is a certificate at all and it isn't hand written).

Also, Maz, you live in Denmark. I think pretty much all poultry you buy at major retailers in Denmark is zabihah, isn't it? Or did they change that?

In Muslim majority countries, we generally have the luxury to be there when the animal is slaughtered (unless we buy jelly or something) so should I care to make sure, I could... again, I really don't care enough.
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#36 Jun 04 2012 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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WTF?!?!?!? I came into a thread expecting to read about Kali's wizard robe and end up reading 20 posts about slaughtering animals?

Anyway Kali, that's not a wizard robe. A wizard's robe would be a dark base with white or yellow stars. So it's like a negative of a Wizard's robe I suppose.
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#37 Jun 04 2012 at 9:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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It feels like one, anyway.

Also the first time I've worn white in years and not felt horrible in it.
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#38 Jun 04 2012 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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#39 Jun 04 2012 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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I find it hard to take it seriously when people that kill animals for pleasure get self righteous about their suffering.

En particulier, it's painfully obvious Nilatai only cares about the issue because it gives him a pretence to attack Islam, Dawkins' most hated religion. The French far right recently discovered an interest in animal welfare, too, just before the election. I guess it's goin' around, huh?

Frenchie.
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#40 Jun 04 2012 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, it's kind of... most people in the West don't spend a second thinking about where their meat came from. In Islam, at least once a year it's recommended and kind of normal to have the animal you'll eat (goat, sheep, cow, whatever) live with you for a week before being killed before your eyes. Which is a bit weird but at least we know what's happening, right? And can make choices based on seeing that.

Of course that goes out the window if you have to spend Eid in Europe or something but even then at least the slaughtering is done in public.
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#41 Jun 04 2012 at 9:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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Watching videos put out by PETA to make people not want to eat meat just makes me want a hamburger covered in bacon and fried chicken, this thread has also made me hungry. And that looks more like something a middle eastern white mage would wear.
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#42 Jun 05 2012 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Kavekk is right. I only care about things the great Dawkins tells me to!

I mean, he hates Judaism just as much as Islam, amirite? That's the only reason an atheist could possibly have a problem with animals being concious throughout the entirety of the slaughter process.

Oh! I almost forgot, Dawkins told me that I should hate battery farming as well. Because only Jews do that kind of thing. It's something about it being cheaper for them than free range animal rearing.

Kavekk, perhaps you should focus on developing some kind of personality, rather than shooting the odd ad hominem in my direction.
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#43 Jun 05 2012 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Your petulant misapprehension of my post aside, never try to bluff with your cards face up.
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#44 Jun 05 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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So why does Kavekk and Nilatai have contempt for one another?
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#45 Jun 05 2012 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Kavekk doesn't like me because I'm smarter and better looking than he is. Jealousy is a terrible emotion.

Also because I've criticised Islam (and other religions) in the past for numerous reasons, it means that the only reason I could be opposed to this kind of slaughter is because it's a religious practice. Not for any other reason ever. Smiley: schooled


Edited, Jun 5th 2012 4:02pm by Nilatai
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#46 Jun 05 2012 at 9:59 PM Rating: Good
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Probably both trying to be token British or something. Smiley: tongue
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#47 Jun 06 2012 at 2:00 AM Rating: Good
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I was here first, or something.
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#49 Jun 06 2012 at 2:32 AM Rating: Good
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I know this isn't gonna make sense once the offending post gets nuked, but we get the weirdest effing spam in here.
#50 Jun 06 2012 at 9:14 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
I find it hard to take it seriously when people that kill animals for pleasure get self righteous about their suffering.


You and me both. I don't kill animals for pleasure, though. Not even spiders. I kill those out of (irrational) fear for my own well-being.

Kalivha wrote:
Also, Maz, you live in Denmark. I think pretty much all poultry you buy at major retailers in Denmark is zabihah, isn't it? Or did they change that?


Nope, didn't change it last I read about it (2011). 99% of all poultry in Denmark is halal. We have this thing called religious freedom in our country, which means we can't ban halal as it would be banning Islam. We're softies, I guess. And since one of our major exports is poultry, and since some of our major clients are Middle-eastern countries, it's cheaper to just make it all halal than some of it. I mean, if the British decided they'd only import halal bacon (ignoring the fact that pork can never be halal), we'd start slitting piggy throats like it was going out of style as well.

That said, we don't allow exsanguination (bleeding to death) of conscious animals. It's called animal cruelty and it's illegal. The chickens are stunned by electrocution before being cut, meaning they're not conscious during the process. Electrocution isn't directly prohibited in the Qur'an (for obvious reasons), so it's okay. Sort of. The Muslims don't like it much, but it's technically halal. The imams here want the stunning gone from the procedure, but so far it's still considered animal cruelty and thus illegal to slaughter a conscious animal.

As an addendum, I don't mind halal as long as the animal is rendered unconscious first, either by electrocution or gassing (since percussive stunning is forbidden). My issue isn't with the procedure of Dhabihah itself (exsanguination by cutting the throat), it's with the animal cruelty part when the animal is conscious.
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#51 Jun 06 2012 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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I know that at least in some facilities, they have some sort of Islamic mind control going on. No idea how effective it is but I've seen videos and the animals just kind of faint when they hear "Bismillah" (i.e. the blessing that is said before slaughter anyway). That video was as part of a lecture, so I think it might actually be legit.

Honestly, the issue of whether something not explicitely mentioned is haraam (ie forbidden) is stupid to begin with because everything is halal by default until proven otherwise. At best I'd say this is makrooh, and even the concerns about the animals dying before the cut (which seem kind of valid) are... well, just check if it happened and then sell the affected meat to non-Muslims. It's not actually haraam to give food you can't eat to those who can (only with alcohol it is). I have a friend who is crazy paranoid about halal issues and even she ended up giving some random yoghurt that contained pork gelatine to her non-Muslim neighbours.
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