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#1 Dec 16 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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to start transgender therapy?

http://articles.boston.com/2011-12-11/lifestyle/30512365_1_twin-boys-transgender-jonas

Long story short, one of a pair of twin boy starts identifying with the female gender at an early age (3-4 iirc from the article). After much deliberation, the parents submit the boy to a transgender youth clinic in Boston where the boy receives hormone therapy to prevent the early onset of puberty.

The twins are now in high school, but have necessarily been enrolled in a private school with a noted tolerance for LGBT issues and have had their fair share of issues, including a pending discrimination lawsuit against a previous school, which is of course backed by the ACLU and GLAD.

I'm not sure how I feel about this situation. I can see both sides, but I tend to wonder, how old must a child really be before they can truly identify this type of issue and cope with it in a healthy way? A doctor from the clinic even says that a good portion of children who identify with the problem early on turn out not to be transgender at all, which makes it all the more important that the hormone therapy is reversible. What about parents who might incorrectly encourage the therapy, either out of ignorance or personal motives that conflict with the child's best interests?

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#2 Dec 16 2011 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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Well, it's a really complex system. Not all trans peoples actually fully identify with the opposite ***. Many of then don't ever actually attempt to fully transition from one the other, but are happy to stay somewhere in the middle. There are also gender-***** peoples, who might be markedly uncomfortable with their own gender.

One thing that is important to remember is that gender identities are largely a social construct. We live in a culture that arbitrarily limits the number of identities to two (which is what trans groups are attempting to change). Most Native American societies had 4 gender identities. In Samoa, there are (or at least used to be) at least 3. Etc. Someone who is rejecting a gender identity might not necessarily want the other one--they might be embracing it more because it is what they are left with.

Overall, I agree with the parents. Trying to force the identity on the child isn't going to make anyone happy. If they turn out that they want to stay a boy, then at least the child will remember that they made the choices that led to that. If they do continue to transition, their childhoods were a **** of a lot better than the rest of the trans peoples I know.
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#3 Dec 16 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If they do continue to transition, their childhoods were a **** of a lot better than the rest of the trans peoples I know.
And if they don't continue?
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#4 Dec 16 2011 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If they do continue to transition, their childhoods were a **** of a lot better than the rest of the trans peoples I know.
And if they don't continue?


There's no choice that is perfect for every eventuality. Hopefully, psychologists get better at predicting whether or not a child will ultimately want to transition. You don't need to start hormone treatments until they are 10 or so, I'd imagine.

I'm going to guess* that there's a high probability that a child that comes to this clinic will ultimately want to transition, at least partly.

What does worry me, however, is that a sexual transition will be too strongly put forward. We have a culture that really, REALLY cares about what they have in the pants. Honestly, that should be a completely personal choice on part of the child. A ton of transgenders never even seek gender reassignment surgery (though for many of them, it's because it's insanely expensive--requires over 2 years of therapy before hand, plus the surgery, and none of it is covered by insurance, iirc).

In any case, its commendable to actively seek to get your child into a positive atmosphere. Even if the kid mentioned in the OP decides not to transition, I'm guessing he'll be better off in this scenario than he would have been if they insisted on trying to force maleness on him.
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#5 Dec 16 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You don't need to start hormone treatments until they are 10 or so, I'd imagine.
So to answer Stubbs' question, you think anything under 10?
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#6 Dec 16 2011 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You don't need to start hormone treatments until they are 10 or so, I'd imagine.
So to answer Stubbs' question, you think anything under 10?


I <3 brevity.
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#7 Dec 16 2011 at 11:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You don't need to start hormone treatments until they are 10 or so, I'd imagine.
So to answer Stubbs' question, you think anything under 10?


Without knowing anything particular about the science, I have no clue. But 10 sounds like a decent age to start with.

For the psychological stuff, on the other hand, I'm on board. Kids shouldn't be forced into gender norms, and it's a good idea for those kids to have an outlet to help them cope with pressures from others to conform.
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#8 Dec 16 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not an expert on this *at all*, so take what I'm about to say with a huge grain of salt.

Without getting into specifics, I could have very very easily have been diagnosed* as a female-identifying male as a kid (and still have a few departures from what's considered normal for a guy my age), and I have a damaged pituitary gland from a very young age (2) that caused other hormone deficiencies, so it wouldn't even be unreasonable to consider the option of hormone therapy for someone like me.

That said, I would be [b]super mega ultra ************** at my parents if they had put me in a female hormone therapy treatment program, especially at that young of an age. Despite what an outside observer may think, I am a male-identifying male, I like being male quite a bit, and am of the opinion that--no matter what society says--if I'm doing something, it's "manly" [i]simply because I'm the one who's doing it; whether that's baking cupcakes, watching slice-of-life Anime, or playing online games, or whatever, because I am confident in myself and my identity. Likewise, any stereotypically male activity will be "womanly" (or the associated adjective of any other identities) should a woman decide to enjoy that activity.

Nothing is set in stone physically until the onset of puberty, so there shouldn't be a need to rush things (again, I'm not a doctor, medical professionals will trump my opinions here). Just make sure to love and support your kid, and use your best judgment. If you're really trying to look out for your kid, and not just trying to enforce what you want them to be, I don't think any kid who grew up in such an environment will look back and say their parents did wrong by them.

*I don't know if diagnosed is the right word, but just roll with it, I think it's clear what I mean from context
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#9 Dec 16 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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...whether that's baking cupcakes...
Manliest thing on earth.
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#10 Dec 16 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Aliekber wrote:
...whether that's baking cupcakes...
I always wanted to be a baker.

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#11 Dec 16 2011 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Any parent that says their three or four year old is capable of discerning their own gender identity needs to be investigated for child abuse. It worked out for them, but ten out of nine times I'd have placed money on the parents wanting a boy and a girl instead of two boys so they manipulated the kid into that role. Seriously, twins that young, and one just happens to like dresses and such? Where was he getting those dresses? Sounds too **** suspicious to me.
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#12 Dec 16 2011 at 1:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm going to say this because I know that happens. Most TG's start identifying with the other gender early. I
know that I was playing with girls things instead of guys from the start. I thought I was a girl back then. Then I learned I was a boy and of course my parents did all the stuff to try to stop me from my girl like tendencies. It was never effective. I dressed and still liked and identified with girls. Of course I did try all the guy stuff and did sports and even lettered in several but the girl in me never went away. Pretty much TG's are trapped in the wrong body. We are wired as the opposite gender. The change makes your body match your mind.

I've advised and helped many other girls start and make the change. I'll tell you if its done early enough its
much better for the person going through it and it's so much easier to be passable as a younger developing body reacts better with the hormones. The youngest I helped was aged 16 and her parents were very supportive. She's happy and totally passable in person. At the age in the story the child may develop as a complete woman and it may be the best for them.

One other reason for people to change is that many are born and like the story the parents make a choice to have a boy rather than a girl if they have both genders at birth. I know several girls that found out they were born female and changed to male. Just like most TG's they have issues and many change back later. I know several that did this also. It's one complex and volatile issue and many people do not understand it nor want to. Ignorant people are afraid of change and many TG's experience high rates of suicide and discrimination by others. That I'm experienced and know all to well about.
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#13 Dec 16 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Aliekber wrote:
...whether that's baking cupcakes...
Manliest thing on earth.


STFU, cupcakes are delicious.
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#14 Dec 16 2011 at 2:29 PM Rating: Good
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Had to rate up Tailmon for that.

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#15 Dec 16 2011 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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The kids aren't taking hormones themselves at a young age; just hormone blockers. They've been used for a long time with cases of precocious puberty, and kids will go through puberty after they stop taking them. If they find they conform to their birth ***, they'll stop them and continue on as they normally would.

Now, for transgender women starting the transition after puberty, especially if they have some very masculine characteristics? They're @#%^ed.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 3:00pm by Sweetums
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#16 Dec 16 2011 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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I totally didn't even know those existed Sweetums. Rate up for teaching me something new. :)
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#17 Dec 16 2011 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
Now, for transgender women starting the transition after puberty, especially if they have some very masculine characteristics? They're @#%^ed.


Not always true. It depends on the person. Each situation is different. As I said earlier the younger you take HRT the more convincing you are. Even after I did HRT my body changed more than I expected. Even your bones change. Just as your fat ends up in different spots. Not just Boobs but other places women have it. I know a few TG's that have been on the TV shows. Can you guess who is a man or woman? All of my friends were women to the audiences. Many of us have seen that people can have dramatic physical changes even in their twenties.

Even facial features can be changed rather well and not that expensively now. I had some surgery to change
my face to make it more feminine and its much different than before. I've had friends have major facial surgery and they look completely female now. Even boob jobs are common but not advisable untill a person has been on HRT for a few years because they take time to develop.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 6:14pm by Tailmon
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#18 Dec 16 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Tailmon wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Now, for transgender women starting the transition after puberty, especially if they have some very masculine characteristics? They're @#%^ed.


Not always true. It depends on the person. Each situation is different. As I said earlier the younger you take HRT the more convincing you are. Even after I did HRT my body changed more than I expected. Even your bones change. Just as your fat ends up in different spots. Not just Boobs but other places women have it. I know a few TG's that have been on the TV shows. Can you guess who is a man or woman? All of my friends were women to the audiences. Many of us have seen that people can have dramatic physical changes even in their twenties.

Even facial features can be changed rather well and not that expensively now. I had some surgery to change
my face to make it more feminine and its much different than before. I've had friends have major facial surgery and they look completely female now. Even boob jobs are common but not advisable untill a person has been on HRT for a few years because they take time to develop.


All the more reason to let the kid grow up a bit before subjecting them to therapy. Let them make up their own minds along the way IMO. The percentage of kids below age 5 who associate with the gender opposite their own *** is pretty high. But it's usually a passing phase and has more to do with realizing that the other gender is treated differently, or wears different clothes, or whatnot and thinking that being that other gender will be "better" in some way. I suspect that nearly all children go through something like that at some point, even if it's just an unrealistic jealous "grass is greener" thing.

Transgender changes are significant and come with some pretty serious social obstacles. The harm in waiting until someone is absolutely sure that's the life for them is (IMO) vastly less than that in convincing a young child who might not otherwise have pursued such a path that he/she is transgender. I just think that it's one of those things that you *really* need to be sure of, and I can't see how anyone could make that choice at age 3.
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#19 Dec 16 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Decent
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As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better. They change because it's the gender they identify with. They don't ever think "I'm going to become a woman." They think "I'm a woman, and I think I'm going to change my body to reflect that."

That's actually a heteronormative statement though. Plenty of trans peoples identify as either or both genders. And then there are gender ***** peoples, who don't feel they actually fall on the spectrum of gender at all.
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#20 Dec 16 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory wrote:
They don't ever think "I'm going to become a woman." They think "I'm a woman, and I think I'm going to change my body to reflect that."
Eventually, sure. Doubtful at three. My daughter hates dresses with a fiery passion. I don't think it's because she identifies with being a boy, but because she recently learned what running is and her dresses get caught on things sending her sprawling.

I kind of feel like a bad father for finding it freakin' hilarious, but that's neither here or there.
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#21 Dec 16 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better. They change because it's the gender they identify with. They don't ever think "I'm going to become a woman." They think "I'm a woman, and I think I'm going to change my body to reflect that."

That's actually a heteronormative statement though. Plenty of trans peoples identify as either or both genders. And then there are gender ***** peoples, who don't feel they actually fall on the spectrum of gender at all.


Wow, you completely misunderstood what he was saying, probably because you're stupid. That was what he was contrasting actual transexuality with.

How are you so stupid?

No, I don't agree with him.
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#22 Dec 16 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better.


I read it as him describing a phase that a lot of kids that age go through, not describing true transgender people.

I played with barbies at 3, my son played with dolls, dollhouses and cupcake kitchen sets. Doesn't mean I should turn him into a woman.
#23 Dec 16 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Tailmon wrote:
Sweetums wrote:
Now, for transgender women starting the transition after puberty, especially if they have some very masculine characteristics? They're @#%^ed.


Not always true. It depends on the person. Each situation is different. As I said earlier the younger you take HRT the more convincing you are. Even after I did HRT my body changed more than I expected. Even your bones change. Just as your fat ends up in different spots. Not just Boobs but other places women have it. I know a few TG's that have been on the TV shows. Can you guess who is a man or woman? All of my friends were women to the audiences. Many of us have seen that people can have dramatic physical changes even in their twenties.

Even facial features can be changed rather well and not that expensively now. I had some surgery to change
my face to make it more feminine and its much different than before. I've had friends have major facial surgery and they look completely female now. Even boob jobs are common but not advisable untill a person has been on HRT for a few years because they take time to develop.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 6:14pm by Tailmon
Yeah, that's definitely true. I guess I'm mostly thinking of the cases where they're misgendered in public. I certainly wouldn't be able to tell that Julia Serano wasn't cissexual unless I'd have already known
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#24 Dec 16 2011 at 6:13 PM Rating: Good
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KTurner wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better.


I read it as him describing a phase that a lot of kids that age go through, not describing true transgender people.

I played with barbies at 3, my son played with dolls, dollhouses and cupcake kitchen sets. Doesn't mean I should turn him into a woman.
Uhhh, and you wouldn't be. Many transexual people actually criticize these strict gender roles because when THEY don't conform themselves, they have to go through this ******** song and dance to get the medical treatment they need.

You don't have to worry about homones until you're older. All a little boy needs to look like a little girl is basically a dress.
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#25 Dec 16 2011 at 6:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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As I said before TG's are not someone that just plays with dolls. They are wired differently than normal.
Consider it being trapped in the wrong body. That was what I felt from a very early age. It's a recognized
fact. Playing dolls with your sister is not the only thing that makes you someone like me. It's much deeper
and part of your soul to say. You know your a different *** but your body is wrong. Dressing and being with
other girls helps but its not enough to help you. Eventually you can become self destructive and antisocial
or even seeking other things to help ease the problem. That is why many non opp TG kill themselves. The process
to become a TG and be on HRT takes time and therapy. With the process taking time because once you leap there is
no looking back.

As my therapist told me. "Be prepared to loose your Family, Friends, and Job. Because it will happen." I actually doubted her about that because I thought people were more open minded than when I was younger. The truth was that many were not and even all of my family stopped talking to me. I lost all but my *** and TG friends. And it took them many years and lots of tries but they finally got rid of me at my past job. As I have indicated before I've coached many others and actually moderated MSN's TG forums years back.
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#26 Dec 16 2011 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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My point was that, if you are considering gender as being something they actively choose for any logical reason, you've already missed the point. No child has a conception of their gender at 3. Doesn't mean they aren't actually already conforming to one or the other (or neither).

Your gender identity is an psychological development, formed by your societal definitions of genders. You never consciously stop and really consider it or choose one.
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#27 Dec 16 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Sweetums wrote:
KTurner wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
As always, gbaji needs to paint things in terms of benefits. Smiley: oyvey

Transgendered people don't change their gender because they think a different one is better.


I read it as him describing a phase that a lot of kids that age go through, not describing true transgender people.


Correct. I'm saying that to attempt to diagnose someone as transgender at that age is ridiculous. Nearly every kid at some point goes through a stage where they want to be the other gender, or dress like the other gender, or play with dolls/trucks/whatever that the other gender seems associated with. And for the vast majority of them it has *nothing* to do with being transgender.

Quote:
Quote:
I played with barbies at 3, my son played with dolls, dollhouses and cupcake kitchen sets. Doesn't mean I should turn him into a woman.
Uhhh, and you wouldn't be. Many transexual people actually criticize these strict gender roles because when THEY don't conform themselves, they have to go through this bullsh*t song and dance to get the medical treatment they need.


Sure. Which was what I was talking about by harm done though. If the odds of your three year old boy who likes to play dolls being transgender is one in 10,000, then taking him to a therapist and treating him based on the assumption that he *is* transgender is going to harmfully confuse 9,999 kids for every one it saves from harmful confusion.

Another way to look at it is that the pressure to "conform" to society's gender assumptions act as a test for transgenders. If after constantly being told you're wearing the wrong clothes, or the wrong hairstyle, and a zillion other things, you *still* believe it feels more right to you to do those things then otherwise, then you aren't confused anymore. If you remove those pressures, you might save the rare transgender a bit of embarassment and confusion growing up (cause if everyone is wearing and acting differently they wont stick out), but it's going to create even more problems for everyone else.


Whether it's fair to transgenders or not, the societal norms are norms for a reason. It's what most people conform to and are comfortable with. It seems counter productive to make everyone uncomfortable so that a small percentage can feel less so. And in this case attempting to make that decision at such a young age is pretty ridiculous.

Quote:
You don't have to worry about homones until you're older. All a little boy needs to look like a little girl is basically a dress.


Sure. But do we decide that since said little boy wanted to wear dresses when he was three that he must be transgendered and tell his parents that they should encourage him to wear dresses, and put braids in his hair, and otherwise pressure him to continue with that as his gender identity? How far do we shelter said boy from society in order that he not ever be exposed to the idea that others might think what he's doing is unusual? How many years do you keep doing this?

IMO, that's going to ***** him up far far more than actually being transgender in todays society. And it doesn't really help him in the long run either.

Edited, Dec 16th 2011 5:45pm by gbaji
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#28 Dec 16 2011 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Considering you're neither transgender nor a medical professional, I'm going to go with, "how the **** do you know?"
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#29 Dec 16 2011 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
Considering you're neither transgender nor a medical professional, I'm going to go with, "how the @#%^ do you know?"


Thank you! I couldn't have said it better.
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#30 Dec 16 2011 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
My point was that, if you are considering gender as being something they actively choose for any logical reason, you've already missed the point. No child has a conception of their gender at 3. Doesn't mean they aren't actually already conforming to one or the other (or neither).

Your gender identity is an psychological development, formed by your societal definitions of genders. You never consciously stop and really consider it or choose one.


Yes, that was all very clear.

You still don't seem to have realised your mistake, despite it being spelt out to you by two different people. I wonder why?
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#31 Dec 16 2011 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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Transsexual and Transgender are two totally different things. You can be one without being the other (or both).

There are 3 major issues I had with gbaji's post:

1. He assumes that to be transgendered is to be transsexual. This is absolutely not the case, and it is actually one of the biggest political (and social) obstacles faced by trans peoples. Most trans people never take hormone supplements or undergo sexual reassignment surgery.

2. He assumes that gender identity is the same as preference for "masculine" or "feminine" practices. Gender identity is WAY deeper than that. Anyone who assumes that their little boy is a little girl because he likes putting on dresses or playing with barbies is a frickin' moron. First of all, children learn to associate practices with a gender identity over time. Their own gender identity is a much deeper concept--they have one, yeah, but the most important thing is to let them explore it freely. General therapy is the best way to do that--positively reinforcing their ability to make a choice and deal with the stress it puts on them. Hormone therapy to delay the onset of puberty gives them additional time to make a choice regarding their body without a biological clock dictating things.

3. He assumes that gender identity isn't always in flux. Gender identity itself is something obtained from social scenarios. Are there basic psychological differences between male and female brains? Yes. And they will influence what end of a spectrum most males/females end up at. But what those ends look like, and how far apart they are, is entirely determined by society. It's a learned behavior.

Furthermore, gender identity is always fluid for everyone--plenty of people transition back and forth between identities, precisely because there isn't any intrinsic identity to their biology. Most of them end up settling somewhere eventually. But that's not universally true. The notion that the child is being forced to choose between two opposing gender identities is just not true.

gbaji was worried that a child would be pressured into another identity. For any good clinic, this isn't possible--the program would be set up in a distinctly non-hetero (or ****)normative way. Their goal is to provide a safe space where the child can naturally allow their gender identity to form without having to deal with heteronormative pressures since, realistically, the chances of the child ending up in a heteronormative identity are slim.
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#32 Dec 16 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
For any good clinic
In a ****** up world like ours can you really use a caveat like that?
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#33 Dec 16 2011 at 9:29 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
For any good clinic
In a @#%^ed up world like ours can you really use a caveat like that?

Okay, that's fair. Smiley: frown
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#34 Dec 17 2011 at 6:02 AM Rating: Decent
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This is all very unnatural.
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#35 Dec 17 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
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21/2 + 7 = 17. That's what this thread is about, right?

Age/7+2 is superior rule
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#36 Dec 17 2011 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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Reread the article and the discussion.

I think as a child I was more gender-neutral than I was firmly feminine, or female-acting-male. I liked everything. Barbies, micro machines, ponies, transformers, dresses, and military uniforms... I didn't like shopping much as a child, but that was because I knew it cost money my family probably didn't have. I loved roller skating but also dirt biking. My parents were dismayed, but eventually rolled with it because I did love to wear dresses and skirts. I faced difficulties in school (that I now trace back to my last name, honestly, it was too weird) but none of them had to do with gender-identity.

The child in the article, however, was not in that situation. Although she also liked some boys things, she clearly identified as feminine and so far doesn't seem to be regretting her decision at age 14. I think the support of her family is the most valuable thing. Seems like her dad has had to change almost as much as she did.

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#37 Dec 17 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Reread the article and the discussion.

...

The child in the article, however, was not in that situation. Although she also liked some boys things, she clearly identified as feminine and so far doesn't seem to be regretting her decision at age 14. I think the support of her family is the most valuable thing. Seems like her dad has had to change almost as much as she did.



In the article, yes. My question was more of a general nature.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


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#39 Dec 17 2011 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Is 2 too young? Almost definitely.

Is 10 too young? Probably not. In any case, the time left for you to start using hormone therapy is quickly dissipating (if not already passing).

So it's probably somewhere in there. Honestly, it has to be on a case-by-case basis, since every child is going to be different.
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#40 Dec 17 2011 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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IM 9 DONT SAY THAT
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#41 Dec 17 2011 at 7:33 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?
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#42 Dec 17 2011 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?


Nope, for Usagi it would be Age-Age-1 month.
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#43 Dec 17 2011 at 9:58 PM Rating: Excellent
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Age/7+2 is superior rule


Usagi, dat you?


Nope, for Usagi it would be Age-Age-1 month.
Naw, Usagi doesn't like 'em til they are old enough to put on a princess or sailor moon costume.
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#44 Dec 19 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Havne't read thread, but I know that there's sort of two opposing problems. One huge one is that the earlier you start hormone therapy (like at the start of puberty) the more successful the gender transformation is. If you start at the start of puberty, you'll come out looking like the opposite ***, whereas if you start at the end of puberty, in many if not most cases you'll always look like an obvious Tranny. That can be really hard on males who wish to look feminine. Women transitioning to men are often more successful.

Of course, the Start Early If You Want To Actually Look Like The Opposite *** thing clashes horribly with the maturity and identity problem. Yes, young kids can know early if they are attracted to one *** over another... but sexual identity is harder to pin down, when society still imposes (in a collective unconscious way) such strict gender rules. Why do only male performers get to wear eyeliner and nailpolish?

Really little kids are allowed, even encouraged, to use their imagination and explore by playing with dress-ups and all variety of toys. Then they get beaten up or ostracised at school if they innocently bring up something they like that is "wrong" for a girl, or especially a boy.

"Tom-boys", while uncool, get their own category and legitimacy. A girly boy is just "***", even when he's not.
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#45 Dec 19 2011 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Any parent that says their three or four year old is capable of discerning their own gender identity needs to be investigated for child abuse. It worked out for them, but ten out of nine times I'd have placed money on the parents wanting a boy and a girl instead of two boys so they manipulated the kid into that role. Seriously, twins that young, and one just happens to like dresses and such? Where was he getting those dresses? Sounds too **** suspicious to me.

Ok, I read the article. She was getting her mother's clothes and shoes out of her closet, and wearing them, mostly. And seriously? Even if she didn't have access to female clothes in the family home, she would have seen women's and girl's clothing out in public and in kindergarten, and could have developed preferences for how they looked compared to the clothing most men wore.

The younger a child is, the more naive it is. But never ever underestimate a child's capability for intelligence, for rationing things out when bumping into first principles. They are learning machines, with eidetic memories usually until the age of 9. A two year old can structure a very complex and abstract thought. They just have a harder time getting their mouth around it.

In this case there was no final "descision" for Wyatt to become Nicole, when he was 3 or 4 or 5. There was just strong patterns of behaviour that were completely consistent over the entire course of his/her childhood, leading his parents to seeek medical advice for their son/daughter, leading to the descision for Nicole to go on Hormone blockers when she was 11, and then leading to her beginning female hormones at 14, when she was still convinced she wanted a woman's body to go with her mind, her tastes, and her preferences.

Edited, Dec 19th 2011 2:44pm by Aripyanfar
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#46 Dec 19 2011 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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If I were a boy named Wyatt, I would probably do whatever it took to convince my parents to change my name, too.
#47 Dec 19 2011 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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I don't mind the name, personally. At least he wasn't something like Quincy.
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#48 Dec 19 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
If I were a boy named Wyatt, I would probably do whatever it took to convince my parents to change my name, too.


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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#49 Dec 19 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
There are 3 major issues I had with gbaji's post:

1. He assumes that to be transgendered is to be transsexual. This is absolutely not the case, and it is actually one of the biggest political (and social) obstacles faced by trans peoples. Most trans people never take hormone supplements or undergo sexual reassignment surgery.


I made no such assumption. However, it can be argued that the parents in the article *did*. How the **** do you diagnose a gender identity issue at age 3?

Quote:
2. He assumes that gender identity is the same as preference for "masculine" or "feminine" practices. Gender identity is WAY deeper than that. Anyone who assumes that their little boy is a little girl because he likes putting on dresses or playing with barbies is a frickin' moron.


So you agree with me that the parents were frickin' morons? You're kinda making my point for me here.

Quote:
First of all, children learn to associate practices with a gender identity over time.


Yes. Over time. Do you see how taking your child to a gender clinic at age three because he's wearing dresses is a bad idea?

Quote:
Their own gender identity is a much deeper concept--they have one, yeah, but the most important thing is to let them explore it freely.


Therapy at that age is incredibly unlikely to do that, and far more likely to impose the assumption of a transgender condition which the clinic is biased to see and act on.

Quote:
3. He assumes that gender identity isn't always in flux.


No, I didn't. The parents who responded to their boy wearing dresses by thinking "OMG! Our child might be transgender, let's take him to a clinic to be told it's ok to want to be a girl" instead of the far more rational "it's probably a phase". Which, if you'd actually read my earlier posts was what I was saying from the start.

Quote:
Gender identity itself is something obtained from social scenarios. Are there basic psychological differences between male and female brains? Yes. And they will influence what end of a spectrum most males/females end up at. But what those ends look like, and how far apart they are, is entirely determined by society. It's a learned behavior.


Yes. We learn gender roles as we develop. And we learn most of that stuff *after* the age of 3. And guess what? Going to a transgender clinic is also going to change how that child learns gender roles and will influence that child's ultimate gender identity.

I think what you're failing to get is that I fully accept that society does tend to teach/pressure children to adopt gender roles based on their ***. The difference is that I see that in the overwhelming majority of cases this is going to derive a better result for the person than to introduce a counter education teaching the child different gender roles (which is essentially what such a clinic will do). I'll point out again that societal norms are norms for a reason. It's what most of the society is comfortable with. Deliberately teaching a child to adopt a gender identity at odds with that norm is just leaping pain and suffering on said child.

If a child sticks with a different gender role on their own despite pressures otherwise *then* you can go down the transgender therapy route. But there's no way in **** anyone's honestly making that determination at age 3. It would be questionable to make that determination at age 10 IMO.

Quote:
Furthermore, gender identity is always fluid for everyone--plenty of people transition back and forth between identities, precisely because there isn't any intrinsic identity to their biology. Most of them end up settling somewhere eventually. But that's not universally true. The notion that the child is being forced to choose between two opposing gender identities is just not true.


Of course they are. And it's naive to insist otherwise. For good or bad we *do* force such choices on people. Pressures to conform to gender roles are all around us all the time. And while we may rail against such pressure, the reality is that most people conform and most people are happier because of it. That may suck and all, but that's the reality of the world we live in.

Quote:
gbaji was worried that a child would be pressured into another identity.


What other purpose could such therapy serve? Think about it.

Quote:
For any good clinic, this isn't possible--the program would be set up in a distinctly non-hetero (or ****)normative way. Their goal is to provide a safe space where the child can naturally allow their gender identity to form without having to deal with heteronormative pressures since, realistically, the chances of the child ending up in a heteronormative identity are slim.


Huh? Given that somewhere near 99.9% of all people end up with a heteronomative identity, I'd say that the odds of a 3 year old boy, even one who likes to wear dresses at that age, ending up heteronormative are incredibly high. They are high unless you send him to such a clinic. That's not to say that the parents didn't get incredibly lucky and happen to completely misdiagnose their child's dress wearing in a way which matched a reality they couldn't possibly know about their child at that age and said child really was transgender and the clinic helped save said child from a life of feeling like he/she is in the wrong body.

But the odds are that they just used the clinic to turn their otherwise normal child into a transexual with all the attendant social negatives that will cause over his/her lifetime. Because as you say, gender identity is largely learned behavior. Age three is certainly young enough to teach a child to adopt any gender identity you want to teach them. And I share a healthy skepticism about a clinic dedicated to teaching people to accept different gender roles being very likely to conclude that any child brought to them isn't a transexual.
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#50 Dec 19 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
No, I didn't. The parents who responded to their boy wearing dresses by thinking "OMG! Our child might be transgender, let's take him to a clinic to be told it's ok to want to be a girl" instead of the far more rational "it's probably a phase". Which, if you'd actually read my earlier posts was what I was saying from the start.


I have far less tolerance for your trite drivel than most here, so I'll admit I merely skimmed your post. However, the quoted statement above proves without a doubt that you neither read the full article nor understand the scenario it presents, and implies that you are merely speaking from your own well documented inner fear of "teh gays" and anything that might be associated with alternative lifestyles.

Eat a **** and stop diluting the discourse.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#51 Dec 19 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Your entire response was more pig-headed than the initial post. You are a stain on humanity far more reasons than just those Brown articulated. If you need to believe that a transgender identity is forced upon someone, then you are pathetic.

Why does it terrify you so much that people wouldn't define themselves by the gender roles you've arbitrarily chosen? YOU don't have to do them. These are parents who are looking for the best way to support their child, which I find incredibly commendable. Yes, things start getting murky when we talk about medical treatments, but anyone willing to go out of their own comfort zone for the sake of their child's happiness, instead of just forcing societal standards on them, is way above average in my book.
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