Update on DADT PolicyFollow

That's kind of the point I'm trying to convey, the Chaplain corps is unique in respect to others. They don't follow the same guidelines. You can argue against that they shouldn't be different, but not that they aren't different.

As for the "give it up", you're right. I noticed that after I posted that last. I asked myself "Didn't I already say that?".. Oh, well.



Uh, except homosexuality being a sin isn't a "denominational thing". That's widely accepted as it's clearly written in black and white. It's not one of those interpretations of changed words with various meanings. So, no, it doesn't weaken my argument.



Are you really this confused? You started this by agreeing with a false accusation made by another poster. I didn't just come at you. You came at me with complete nonsense with nothing to back it up. As a 3rd grade counter, I made something up about you.

You wanted me to "take it back". I told you that what I said had no merit (4 times now) and that I was just doing unto you what you were doing to me. Furthermore, I'm not going to apologize for it because unless you can actually site my argument, then you were making stuff up against me, which was why I did what I did to make a point.

You started this, not me.



I would never physically do any work for/against homosexual anything. As I said in the other thread, other than this thread, I don't recall ever making any homosexual threads. Also, as stated in previous threads, my main thing isn't even about homosexuality, but the stupid arguments used in homosexuality's favor.

I'm here to argue and debate and this topic brings up the stupidest arguments. Most of them boils down to "Whatever it takes, no matter how illogical it might be". That's the wrong answer in ANY argument. If your cause is legit, then you would be able to provide legitimate arguments.

My personal opinion on SSM changes often, but I will never accept an argument that by disallowing SSM you are taking away the right for a homosexual to be married because that's simply misleading and isn't true.



If that what makes you feel better.



That's like a million times more likely the reason.




This.

Chaplains aren't going around telling people that they are going to hell, but if they can't read a verse out of the KJV Bible, because it might offend someone, then they can't do their job.

According to a Chaplain, you have be to ordained first, just like with Legal and Medical. You can come off the street and come in as a CPT or MAJ depending on your experience and expertise.

When my wife was volunteering at the chapel at her last base I spent some time talking to the Chaplains assistant, I thought I remembered him saying he wasn't ordained yet. I could be wrong though, which is why I wasn't sure. Although I do remember that he took over for the Chaplain when the Chaplain was reassigned.

The only place it is written in the bible that homosexuality is a sin is in a book filled with Jewish laws that nearly all Christians do not follow. Even if it's true that most Christians believe homosexuality is a sin (which I'm not sold on, or at most it's a small majority), they aren't using any teachings of Jesus to substantiate them.

Feel free to pretend that's not the case though.

And the fact remains that it doesn't matter if it is considered a sin or not. Islamic and Jewish faiths, to the majority of followers, have clear ideas of what women are and are not permitted to do (which, since you seem to care, are written very clearly in the texts that their faiths actually regard).

Chaplains still aren't allowed to insinuate that a woman is a sinner for joining the army.



Says the person who I'm positive has never studied ***** history or the history of homophobia to the person who has.

Yes, Paul mentions that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-11, I believe. I don't think the late JC had anything to say about it, even in the largely exaggerated accounts of his life that we have. And, of course, ol' Pauly boy was pretty down on women too - they must keep silent in church and all that - so you're still left with the whole "pick and choose" delema.

Then shut up about it.

lol

You should find the tallest building around, go to the top of it, and shout "I'm an ignorant fool!"

Then jump off of it or something.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 4:50pm by Lubriderm

I did read it, hence why I said that the various denominations vary on their interpretations on the application of the old covenant.

The Chaplain DOES NOT favor denominations.


He reads from the Bible. If it is supported from the Bible in plain text, then he is authorized to say it regardless of what it says.

I was incorrect about previous sins, but that does not contradict the fact that many teaches from the Old Testament remains.

So, your proclamation of "It's in the Old Testament so it must be false" is incorrect. If you want to debate within certain denominations, then you would have an argument. Else, it is plainly written that it is a sin.

Edited, Jul 3rd 2011 11:05pm by Almalieque

OK,what is exactly your counter? You're confusing me on your point by throwing in irrelevant stuff that you just looked up in order to appear more educated than what you really are.

The Christian Chaplain's job is to teach out of the Bible, not by denominations. It is common by every Christian by any version of the Bible that homosexuality is a sin. What percentage of the OT is carried over to the NT will vary by denomination, but there are many things that indeed carried over, such adultery and incest being considered a sin, tithing, Sabbath Day, etc. Just because Jesus didn't mention "homosexuality is a sin", doesn't mean it magically became o.k. That is something interpreted at the denominational level. Any poster on this forum will agree that religious people are probably the biggest opponents of SSM. So, I'm not seeing where Christians are accepting homosexuality as a whole.

So, what exactly is your counter? No wiki words that you just looked up. Simply put,if the Chaplain's job is to read from the Bible and it plainly says homosexuality is a sin, with most denominations considering it as a sin, displayed by their open opposition of SSM, what is your counter?

idiggory, have my babies. You're endurance is amazing.

Whatever Bible they are told to use during their Chaplain training. Homosexuality is defined as a sin in every version of the Bible.



That doesn't make sense. If it is clearly written in the Bible, then 90% of the Christians wouldn't deny it being Biblical. They may have personal beliefs against it, but that is personal. The Chaplain isn't supposed to teach what people personally agree with or not in respect to opinions if it's blatantly written.

There's a big difference between agreeing that it is written in the Bible vs agreeing with what was written in the Bible. You may disagree with what Jesus said, but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus said it. At that point, the Chaplain has the right to say whatever Jesus said, because it is written. If you don't like it, then don't go to the Chaplain asking him what Jesus said. If he tells you anything other than what Jesus said, then he is violating his position as a Chaplain.



Seriously though, don't you feel slightly guilty for obviously making crap up? You have no idea on how the Chaplain corps operates. This belief that Soldiers are bound by the same rules as a civilian or any other government employee is absurd. At this point, it is obvious that you're just making stuff up to fit what you would like it to be. If it were what you say they were, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we?

Chaplains are labeled as Christian, Muslim or Jewish. They are even marked as such on THEIR UNIFORMS telling you "Hey I'm Muslim", "Hey I'm Jewish", "Hey, I'm Christian". Not only do they have an additional patch on their chest for their specific insignia, their rank on their head gear is replaced with the same insignia, except really shiny.

I'm not contradicting myself. They are taught to be able to talk in a generic sense to cover various denominations, BUT if you ask them a specific question (which has been the argued scenario from the get-go), he is obligated to respond based on the insignia on their chest. No matter what Bible you read, homosexuality is considered a sin.



No I'm not. The religious opposition of Same Sex Marriage is because of the belief that homosexuality is a sin. What other religious reason would there be?



You're in denial. I already told you, the Chaplain is not bound by any of that stuff that you listed. You're just making stuff up to support your point. The Chaplain's job is to teach out of their religious scriptures. If their religious scripture blatantly says "All women should stay in the kitchen, have babies and be killed at the age of 40 after being raped by a football team of men", then he has the obligation to read that scripture as the truth in any relevant scenario.

You're claiming that I'm using an absurd argument, but I don't think you even know what it is. If it is written, then he can say it. If you don't like it, then get rid of the religion.



Don't egg this guy on. NO ONE on this forum agrees with him and you know that. I went back and looked at an old thread and everyone was blaming religion for "homophobia". Remember that argument about our founding fathers? It was argued that SSM wasn't changed because of the religious atmosphere of the U.S. and that's the entire reason why SSM and homosexuality is "bad". Now, this guy is arguing that most Christians don't believe that homosexuality is wrong, where it's blatantly obvious that religious groups are the biggest opposition to homosexuality and SSM.

And in every version of the bible, it's a sin for a woman to speak in church. What's your point?



So most Christians don't eat pork?


And yes, chaplains have their own faith. But it's also required of them, but the military, to speak with anyone who wishes to talk to them. AND, it's forbidden for them to negatively address those individuals' faith, regardless of what it is. If I was a Muslim, I would be able to go to a Christian chaplain if I needed to talk. And he wouldn't be allowed to insinuate that I was a sinner for anything relating to my religion.



Most Christains in the US are in favor of gay rights, in general. Marriage is what gives them pause. For the most part, they are fine with two gays living together, and the support for civil unions is WAY higher than marriage. Why? Because they are obsessed with the definition of marriage as being between a man and a woman. MOST Christians are perfectly fine with gay people.



You claim to be in the military, yet don't even know how this works? Federal statutes apply to all military personnel. There are federal protections for race, religion and sex. There aren't for sexual orientation. Chaplains are bound by all federal anti-discrimination policies.

What?

What people ignore is irrelevant to the their teachings. EVERY religious person works on their respective holy day to teach everyone the holy scriptures. Kind of the whole point of not working on a specific day, to have time for everyone to gather and learn.. kinda like on the holy day..

How did you determine that was a much bigger sin? Based on what? I mean, besides the fact it isn't a sin anyway.

Or the silent people know that correcting you won't do anything.