An Afterlife? (gotta love me^^)Follow

Everyone is still free to choose whichever of the paths available every time they make a decision. Some paths will never be seen, it does not mean that they do not exist.


I don't follw this.

Are you saying there is limited free will? That life is a "Choose Your Own Adventure" book?

I'll turn the question around on you: Is the only reason you feel the need to follow laws and act morally is fear of retribution after death?



I can't come up with one for you either. Want to just cease to exist?



I can think of several reasons for each of those. Just because you're not some true beleiver in a made up diety, doesn't mean that you don't hold yourself to standards. I don't choose to treat others well because I fear some kind of divine destruction of my soul, I treat others well because I would want to be treated that way. When I decide I don't want to treat others well, I don't expect them to treat me in a kind fashion.

The reason why many people recognize a ruler isn't religious, it's societal. It's how we are brought up. In the US, your President is the leader. It's part of our culture. You don't have to accept it, but many people do because of the benefits of being in our society.

In my case, I simply can't fathom a God that would make all of this and let us **** it up constantly, much less buy into some fable (the Bible) that's no different than Greek mythology that most discount as pure fantasy.

In the end, I think that it doesn't matter what you believe. It's what I believe. That doesn't preclude us from discussing, mocking, or learning from one another, however, I'm not going to push my beliefs on you. What you seem to be do is passive agressively attacking people you deem to "not get it" more than asking genuine questions. People are taking you to task for it.

Grady


Grady

Edited, Thu Jul 1 13:54:32 2004 by Grady

http://www.rawilson.com/trigger1.shtml

Eb

Yup I think that kinds of sums it up well, a very complex choose your own adventure book. All of the outcomes exist before you read it, they exist after you read it and you are free to flip to whatever page you like, however, the page you flip to determines the pages you have the option of flipping to next. I like that analogy, thank you for making it.


Ok. As the number of possible outcomes approaches infinity, then, I fail to see how this differs signifigantly from free will at all then.

not infinity... for each person has their own destiny.


That doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. I think I UNDERSTAND the concept, mind you, it just smacks of some strange philosophy, and frankly, Calvinisim.

Let me see if I understand it correctly. There are a number of predetermined end results for people in their lives, but how they arrive at these end results is les important.

Let me use George W Bush as an example because it's simple.

In your universe, he's predestined to be President. He does however have some free will to decide the path he takes to get there. Had he elected to fight in an infantry unit in Vietnam, it would have been impossible for him to die, because the machinations of Fate has allready predetermined the length of his particular thread in the skien of the universe.

Had he murdered a child in cold blood, it would have gone unnoticed because his further fate had been predetermined allready.

Something like that?

Along the lines of the Greeks version of the fates?

My, I repeat, my own simple explination of my religion

1. There is a god, I don't feel the need to elaborate

2. We have free will, just because god nudges us in the right direction sometimes doesn't mean we don't have free will

3. There is Osama and all other evil in the world because humans are not perfect, adam and eve ate from the apple and were banished from paradise

4. God, in my religion, is pure good.

5. Satan, in my religion, is pure evil(kind of a oxymoron huh?)

6. I accept all other religions with out question

My, I repeat, my own simple explination of my religion

1. There is a god, I don't feel the need to elaborate

2. We have free will, just because god nudges us in the right direction sometimes doesn't mean we don't have free will

3. There is Osama and all other evil in the world because humans are not perfect, adam and eve ate from the apple and were banished from paradise

4. God, in my religion, is pure good.

5. Satan, in my religion, is pure evil(kind of a oxymoron huh?)

6. I accept all other religions with out question


That's quite possible the stupidest thing ever posted in this forum.

That being said, I respect your right to beleive whatever nonsense you'd like.

Actually I would argue that the end results are not the important part, its how we arrive at them that makes the difference. Kind of the same way as quickly finishing a non timed test is not important, its the awnswers that you provide which will be graded.

I have no idea what will happen to me in the afterlife, although I do believe in one - and not because I am afraid. The idea that morality is based solely on religion is a fallacy (albeit a common one), and personally I would behave pretty much the same were I Christian (which I once was) or an atheist.

I consider myself an agnostic, and I believe that if there is a God he would not be so shortsighted and unfair as to punish us eternally for crimes committed in this life (often because of genetics related problems - which he laid the groundwork for in this hypothetical). Where do you draw the line? What crimes are punishable and which ones aren't? What about the cultural differences as to what is a crime? How about the notion of repentence? Can someone kill 20 people, beg God's forgiveness as they are dying, and "get off scot-free" I tend to disagree.

I will say that I believe being an atheist is a symptom of a cultural tendency in the west to be arrogant and close-minded - not arrogant about oneself so much, but more a notion of scientific elitism. People often focus a bit too much on our science (the Western religion of our times), passing off as-of-yet unexplainable, yet real, well documented, and numerous cases as "anomolies," or "coincidences," even if there are thousands of reported incidences (hey Smash - no offense intended). Things like this are often described as hallucinations, psychopathology, delusions, or even waking dreams <nods in Descartes direction>.

That said, Theists are often just as guilty of espousing that their belief in a certain religion or way of thought is the only right one (if not more-so). The difference is Theists give science credit, while Atheists often don't give spirituality and faith in the unknown much credit. I believe eventually there will be a meeting point for these 2 paradigms.

The truth is, "who knows?" I do believe it is unfortunate (although ultimately inconsequential, IMO), that atheists seem to "close the book" on things like this a bit too soon. The facts aren't in yet, but I do believe there is lots of evidence for the next life. More than the evidence that there isn't one. It falls to a matter of faith on both sides. Atheists can't prove that there isn't one, and Theists can't prove that there is. Not to mention the possibility of an afterlife without a God!

Anyways, it is important, I think, for both sides to keep an open mind - who knows what will happen? Also, I believe that the concept of an afterlife is just as scary as the thought that there isn't one, contrary to many people's opinions. Do you really want to live forever? (or maybe it's not for forever, who knows right?).

Edited, Thu Jul 1 14:41:15 2004 by Mindspirals

Edited, Thu Jul 1 14:45:19 2004 by Mindspirals

My question, is who the hell really gives a rat's ***?

You have your beleifs, I have mine. (Atheist) You don't like that arrangement? Blow me.



Edited, Thu Jul 1 14:21:49 2004 by SelfishMan

Choose your own adventures have many outcomes. Non of which are really important. If it was the end of the book that was important we would all just skip to the last page. It's the experience of the whole that matters, what pages you choose to turn to will ultimatly determine what you get out of the book.


There were diffrent endings, however. You're imlying there is only one set destiny for each person.

See my Bush example a few posts up and clarify if that's not what you're arguing.

Who is this aimed at? I give a rats ***, Smash's questioning of my beliefs has caused me to think about them allot. Which in turn helps me to grow spiritually. Typing my thoughts helps me to flesh them out and understand them better.

It's fine that you have your beliefs, but why are you angry other people are discussing theirs?

I think your confusing someone elses posts with mine, unless I've mispoke myself. A choose your own adventure usually has several endings, some are tragically short.