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Keep RumsfieldFollow

#1 May 07 2004 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with removing Donald Rumsfield as SoD. I just cant bring myself to agree with removing someone specifically because his position requires him to accept political responsibility.

On another note, my question is, how many other atrocities have occured that we don't know about - both in the treatment of enemy POW's and the treatment of OUR own soldiers in a POW status.

Thoughts?

- JP
#2 May 07 2004 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with removing Saddam Hussien as President of Iraq. I just cant bring myself to agree with removing someone specifically because his position requires him to accept political responsibility.

On another note, my question is, how many other atrocities have occured that we don't know about - both in the treatment of enemy POW's and the treatment of OUR own soldiers in a POW status.

Thoughts?
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#3 May 07 2004 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I wonder the same thing Smash......You know if that **** is going on in one area it's going on in another. All it really comes down to is.....who gets caught for what. Unfortunately, many people have the mindset of "Get away with what you can".
#4 May 07 2004 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Rumsfeld said he was "accountable" for the situation, but then made sure to say that he wasn't going to resign or anything. So... accountable how? Where I'm from, being "accountable" for horrible things means there's some sort of repercussions. What will his be? Anything?
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#5 May 07 2004 at 6:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

What will his be? Anything?

He had to inform Congress. He hates that. I think he's learned his lesson.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#6 May 07 2004 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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Is that like when your mom makes you confess to the neighbor that you broke their window, but then she actually pays for the damages and you get to play in the backyard?
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#7 May 07 2004 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Right. The guilt you felt because of it was sufficent punishment. "he's suffered enough, let's get him some milk and cookies"
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#8 May 07 2004 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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"Rummy wants ice cream! Rummy wants ice cream!!"

Smiley: lol
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#9 May 07 2004 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
Fire him:D
#10 May 07 2004 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
Ya makes me reminescence of the Good ole days of Truman or Reagan and "the buck stops here"( quote from the first guy) or "the blame lies on the oval office" (quote from the second guy) Nowadays we get the buck and the blame stop in the Pentagon. Rumsfeld is an idiot, and a bully, but he is backed by a guy who is a bigger idiot and a bigger bully. We need to Fire em both.
#11 May 07 2004 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
There's one basic statement about the US government that holds true always. Someone always has to take the fall. Always.
John Ashscroft has stomped all over the US constitution thanks to the Patriot Act. A gross injustice of civil right violations. I'll stop here before I need to take this to the asylum area.
George Tenet took the fall for the documents being altered to make the case for the invasion of Iraq. Now Rumsfeld is taking the fall for the abuses in the Iraq prisons. As if the president and commander-in-cheif has no idea this was going on.



Thanks to Shamsharoo for pointing out that mistake. Those Gummint fellows all seem the same sometimes.

Edited, Fri May 7 22:33:39 2004 by EQDom
#12 May 07 2004 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Donald Rumsfeld has stomped all over the US constitution thanks to the Patriot Act. A gross injustice of civil right violations. I'll stop here before I need to take this to the asylum area.

Not that I don't agree with the spirit of your post and all, but Rumsfeld ha\s nothing to do with the Patriot Act at all. That's a domestic law, he has nothing to do with it, you're thinking Ashcroft.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#13 May 10 2004 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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My question is: Do you think the Prez really didn't know until he found out through the media (when we did), though Rumsfeld supposedly knew back in February?

And.. is the only thing that will happen to Rumsfeld is a "stern talking to"?

And.. what about the soldiers who actually did the abuse? And why wasn't it stopped by their direct superiors?
#14 May 10 2004 at 11:19 AM Rating: Decent
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We all make mistakes that we wish we could take back or do something differently to avoid. If you the Rumsfield should be fired, then do you think you should be fired everytime you make a mistake at work? Or, would you rather be given a chance to fix your own mess and learn from your mistakes.


What does "accountability" mean? Taking responsiblity for what happens in your organization. Does this mean that you did wrong yourself or knew it was going on? Nope. To me, if someone steps up and says "this is my mess, and I am going to fix it", then, that person should have a chance to fix things.

Now, if that person shows a consistent pattern of blunders and fails to really fix any of them and the associated behaivor, then those who are accountable for that person, should make a change (fire the moron).

For instance, this fall there will be an election......

#15 May 10 2004 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I don't agree with removing Saddam Hussien as President of Iraq. I just cant bring myself to agree
with removing someone specifically because his position requires him to accept political
responsibility.


IMHO, you are comparing "apples to oranges". Read the history of Saddam. He ordered the killing of 10s of thousands of political enemies, including legitimately elected officials. Saddam is clearly responsible.... Now, if Rumsfield ordered the torturing, then he too would be responsible, and we would be talking about something other than him simply being held accountable.

Quote:
On another note, my question is, how many other atrocities have occured that we don't know about
- both in the treatment of enemy POW's and the treatment of OUR own soldiers in a POW status.


Thats a very good question. One I have been thinking about myself. Why was someone taking pictures in the first place? I would assume they knew something was going on and they did not feel comfortable going to their superiors with the info... and why was that????
#16 May 10 2004 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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If you the Rumsfield should be fired, then do you think you should be fired everytime you make a mistake at work? Or, would you rather be given a chance to fix your own mess and learn from your mistakes
Yes. The next time I blow off and mishandle reports of the people I'm in charge of torturing and raping people, I hope I'm fired for it.
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#17 May 10 2004 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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IMHO, you are comparing "apples to oranges". Read the history of Saddam. He ordered the killing of 10s of thousands of political enemies, including legitimately elected officials. Saddam is clearly responsible.... Now, if Rumsfield ordered the torturing, then he too would be responsible, and we would be talking about something other than him simply being held accountable.

Nope, Oranges to Oranges.

Rumsfeld ordered the killing of 10s of thousands of political enemies, including ligitimately elexted officals. Rums\feld is clearly responsible.

Show me the proof that Saddam ordered the torturing in his case.

Whenever you're ready.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#18 May 10 2004 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with removing Donald Rumsfield as SoD


niether does he but its gonna happen
#19 May 10 2004 at 8:56 PM Rating: Decent
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346 posts

Quote:
Show me the proof that Saddam ordered the torturing in his case.

Whenever you're ready.


First off, I meant killing... Which may or may not be more severe than torture (save that for another thread).

Anyway, you can start here.
http://www.worldhistory.com/hussein.htm

Obviously, I am not a "Primary Source" to any of these acts. So "proof" is whether or not you want to believe the hundreds, if not thousands, of articles/books on his rise to power and ruling of Iraq....

I actually did a large research paper well before the first Gulf War, in which I discussed the US SUPPORT of Saddam, despite his already growing list of atrocities...

Back at ya, so where is your proof that Rummy order the torturing and killing of 10s of thousands of people?

I am not saying that Rumsfeld is the greatest SoD that this country has ever seen, heck, I am all for the regime change that will most likely take place in THIS country about 7 months from now. However, I think we are way to quick to demand a high level person resign everytime some disaster happens. Prosecute those who did the torturing and those who directly supervised it.

Now, if it can be proven that Rummy ordered this treatment, then you have an all together different argument.
#20 May 11 2004 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Imake wrote:
Thats a very good question. One I have been thinking about myself. Why was someone taking pictures in the first place? I would assume they knew something was going on and they did not feel comfortable going to their superiors with the info... and why was that????


My husband and I discussed this very point.

To use the analogy we finally settled on:

Your mother is a cop. She gets beaten up really badly by a gang member one day. A few weeks later, she arrests that gang member.

Your father is a guard at a prison. He gets his hands on that gang member and beats the living snot out of him for what the gang member did to your mother.

Do you turn in your father?

Now, to turn that analogy over to the situation at hand.
Soldiers are supposedly like family (I don't know, I'm not in the army or anything).

You have this prisoner who was trying to kill your brothers/sisters (or yourself). Maybe he did kill someone you knew. Then you get access to him. And you get your revenge.

Will your other brothers turn you in for enacting your revenge?

In an ideal world, yes, to both those questions. You would turn in your father/brother and not only would they not be upset with you, they'd thank you for doing the right thing.
However, we don't live in such a world, and I don't know about you, but it's a real thought provoking question over whether or not I'd turn in my family for doing something wrong if it was so "justified" in this manner.

I suppose that says something bad about me. I think what was done was terrible and should never have happened, but I can now understand WHY it went unreported, and while I would like to say that if I was there and saw it happening, I'd do something to stop it. But thinking about it now.. would I turn in my father for beating up someone who hurt my mother? It isn't as cut and dried as if my father went insane and started to beat up some random person or killed someone. In that case, I'd be really really upset by the fact that I'd have to turn in my dad, but I'd do it.

So, my guess is that the soldiers who were doing it were doing it because these were people who were trying to kill them.
And the soldiers who saw it happening but didn't report it, didn't report it because you're over there, with people you consider "family", and are you going to turn them in? And have them mad at you, peer pressure on you, and the like. What happens if someone did turn them in and the person in charge didn't care, or was involved? Do you go over the head of your superior?

So.. in my bad way of summing things up, there are lots of reasons why it wasn't reported, which range from "family", to "peer pressure" to "tried and failed".
#21 May 11 2004 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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And.. what about the soldiers who actually did the abuse? And why wasn't it stopped by their direct superiors?


Those soldiers are up on court martial charges right. Basically, they can say goodbye to their military careers, let alone what will happen to them when get back to their hometowns... imagine how you would treat someone that has just mis-construed our country's name even further...

On another note, most of the world hates the US anyways, this is just gives them 1 more excuse for that hate.
#22 May 11 2004 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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imagine how you would treat someone that has just mis-construed our country's name even further...
Given the number of apologists on this forum who are saying "Yeah, it's bad and all, but..." they might not face quite the reception you're implying.

What the guards did was inexcusable assault, plain and simple. They should be serving jail time, just like any civilian who does the same.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#23 May 11 2004 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So.. in my bad way of summing things up, there are lots of reasons why it wasn't reported, which
range from "family", to "peer pressure" to "tried and failed".


Its not bad at all. I think your probably right in many ways. However, having taken a look at the pictures you have to wonder at what point does "revenge" move to outright "sadism".

#24 May 11 2004 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
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What the guards did was inexcusable assault, plain and simple. They should be serving jail time, just
like any civilian who does the same.


/agree


** I would say its beyond assault. These people are guilty of *War Crimes* and could be tried in an international court. That is, of course, after they get out of the Armies detention facility.

#25 May 11 2004 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Thats a very good question. One I have been thinking about myself. Why was someone taking pictures in the first place? I would assume they knew something was going on and they did not feel comfortable going to their superiors with the info... and why was that????


You'd assume wrong. They took picture to show to other "detainees" tosoftenthemup mentally for interrogation. "Talk or we'll do this to you".

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. There's a reason there are HUNDREDS of pictures in DoD possession that haven't been released yet.

The cop analogy is laughably bad and idiotic.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#26 May 11 2004 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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3,273 posts
Donald Rumsfield... hehe.... OMG... wat a joke!

Wat we have up in the White House is a much of Slappy-Political-Cowboys, they've gotten us in another fine mess! How many times will the American peeps allow the Republicans to invade other NATIONs to futher the greed of the 2% misfits!?!?

I wont be able to remember them all, so I will list a few...

Panama, we went in and KIDNAPPED thier Prezident!!! Yes! Illeagaly? Yes!

Greanda, Ummm... Im still too flip-floppy on that pne yet!

Boznia, we go there to stop christians from killing muslems while muslems continues to kill christians! Oh, and lets throw in a TRAIL of thier President on WAR crimes! HAHA!

Oh yes... lets not forget we STILL have a portion of Cuba under OCCUPATION!

And that poor Prezidenta in Venuzela(*bad spelling?), the CIA has been trying to overthrow him, now they just want to KILL him!

There's more to the lists... I'm not able to remember them all.

BTW... wipe that smirk off yer face all ye Demohippocrits, ye aint no better!
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