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Protection from the Grim ReaperFollow

#1 May 07 2004 at 7:41 AM Rating: Good
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OMG WTF!11! This is like, a serious post! OMG LOLOLOL!11!!!!one!!

Sorry, the above was for furthering the stereotype of the OOT-lite forum.

Growing up, I was lucky to lose few people in those years when I was old enough to understand death, and young enough to not have sufficient coping abilities.

Before that time, it was either glossed over, or told an amusing tale about a favorite pet going to live on a farm with a nice old lady, or Great-Uncle Homer is sleeping and you should sit down and not wake him up. (Yes, my great-uncle really was named Homer. Matt Groening owes me copyright money or something. :P)

No matter what you believe of what happens after you die, be it Heaven, Hell, Hades, nothing, Nirvana, reincarnation, etc, etc, is telling such things to children acceptable?

I’ve heard of people who believe that no matter how young a child, the truth can be explained in some way, shape or form. But no matter how you explain it, can kids really handle the idea and concept that they’ll never see this person again (with the exception of those who are told that there’s some form of afterlife, in which they’ll see that person again after they themselves die)? Or then opening their eyes to the idea that they themselves may one day die. (And then they get eaten by worms, ew!)

Kids being what they are, when I was told Tasha went to live on a farm and Great-Uncle Homer went away on a vacation and we can visit later… I promptly accepted what was told to me and then just as promptly forgot about the matter, more engrossed with whatever it was at that time I was doing, as most little kids do. (Kids are selfish little parasites, what can I say?)

Personally, I think that when a child is too young handle it (and every child is different in this regard, some children are more childish, some are far more “adult” in their mannerisms and attitude and so can probably handle some watered-down (aka: OOT-lite) version of the truth, or even a more serious discussion (such as children with cancer and other diseases). I don’t think anyone advocates sitting a child down and explaining the biomechanical, chemical and electrical reasons for death instead of the “went to sleep”, “went to Heaven”, “went on a vacation” or the “went to a nice big farm to live with a nice family” discussion.

On the other hand, maybe we should tell them some version of the real truth. We over-protect our youth now a days, to the point that I think we’re hurting them with this overprotectedness (Be it sexual, ethical, moral, educational, real-life, what have you). Should protecting the innocence of children only go so far, until you start hampering their expansion as individual people and their ability to survive in society? (And then you get into the whole discussion over what age a child is responsible enough to learn about all these various things.)

(Arguing my own devil’s advocate here, or at least bringing up a point to ponder: If we did protect ALL children in this manner, then maybe we wouldn’t have 12 year olds getting pregnant and the like, but this would require everyone, everywhere, agreeing to and complying with protecting the innocence of children until they are 16 or some other “adult” age. And then those new young adults would have to agree to do the same thing, in order for this to spread beyond one generation. But that’s a tangent to what my original topic is about.)

And then you run into the problem of parents “protecting” their adult children from the unpleasant things in life depending on their childrens situation. Such as delaying alerting them of a relatives death during their college years, or when they’re job hunting or house hunting, to avoid adding “undue stress” to their lives.

Are they simply doing their parental duty, because we still are their children, and doing what they think is best for us? Or are they really just adding more stress to our lives because not only do we find out our relative is dead, but we miss what closure we may get by attending a funeral or wake or other type of service and family gathering and communal reminiscing about said person.

Personally, I no longer trust my parents to tell me the truth about the health status of my elderly or sick relatives. Not because I think they like lying to me, but twice now they’ve “protected” me by deliberately not alerting me to the demise of a family member and a pet, because they didn’t want to add undue stress to my life.

And this fact in and of itself, that I can’t trust them to tell me the truth about my elderly/sick relatives, adds additional stress to my life (thus negating the supposed original purpose of hiding these pertinent little facts from me). Everytime I ask about a relative and I hear the words, “Oh, they were sick for a little bit”, or “they had to go to the hospital, but they’re alright now”, I wonder what I’m not being told. I wonder if it really is worse than they’re letting on, and by not telling me, they’re denying me the opportunity to spend what more time I can spend with that family member before they’re gone. (On the other hand, shouldn’t I be spending as much time as I can with all my family members, because anything can happen and tomorrow they can all die from a freak accident. Why wait until it’s almost too late to spend time with relatives? Then again.. some relatives are best seen only in short limited time visits so you can leave still loving your family. :)

So, now that I’m done rambling on about one of the varieties of ways parents screw up the psyches of their children, what does anyone else who cares to respond think about “protecting” children from death and its various ramifications? (And feel free to reply to any of the quasi-subjects I hinted at with my random tangents and Sybil-like arguments with myself, too.)

Sorry about the subject title. My imagination ran away with my sanity a little while ago, so I couldn't think of anything catchy and all that fun stuff that should go into titles to make people want to click on them to read what is involved.
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#2 May 07 2004 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
shorten the post, way to damn long.
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#3 May 07 2004 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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trunksbrando the ADD patient wrote:
shorten the post, way to damn long.


Sorry to tax your attention span, trunksbrando.

I did actually spend a moment in this message trying to "dumb it down" for those who don't want to read it. But actually, if you can't take the time to read the message, I don't think I want to take the time to retype out my intent in the message, nor read your replies if I have to do that. :)

Either read the message and reply, or don't read the message. Your call. :)
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#4 May 07 2004 at 8:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry to tax your attention span, trunksbrando.



its ok ;)
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#5 May 07 2004 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm not worried about dying. I'll just clone at the nearest clone center, heal wounds and get back out there.
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#6 May 07 2004 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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EQDom wrote:
I'm not worried about dying. I'll just clone at the nearest clone center, heal wounds and get back out there.


Mmm.. did you read the post at all, or just post about death since that's what the subject has in it? Because.. I don't really mention much in my post about being worried about dying, except one small line. So either you didn't read it, or you're very nitpicky about what exactly you're replying to (and if you are, please quote the pertinent bit so that I and others know what you're replying to, so we don't make that pesky assumption that you're just replying to reply. :)

But cloning in and of itself is a serious moral topic. Is cloning ethical? That debate can range entirely from the religious aspect of souls and ethics, to the legal standpoints of identity, ethics and etc.

Personally, I think cloning of whole humans has been done. As a scientist, I'm thrilled at the idea and a little concerned. There are still lots of things about cloning that are not known. Ramifications of using adult cells that may have certain genes turned off and unable to be activated that may be required for normal cellular growth and development, and how that will impact the mental, physical and emotional health of the cloned individual, to the concern that this can be turned into a very bad thing. People who may think it's okay to clone themselves so that one day they can harvest that growing child for its organs. And so on and so forth.

But that's hijacking this post in essence, and is a whole other thread in and of itself.

If anyone wants to hold a discussion about cloning with me, please let me know. :)
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#7 May 07 2004 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
Quote:

Either read the message and reply, or don't read the message. Your call. :)


Nah, trunks and I have another option:

Don't read it AND reply.

It's what we do.

Really though, way too damn long.
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#8 May 07 2004 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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I think it had something to do with whether or not to tell children about death and when.

My own kiddo knows about death at age five. At least he's aware that living things, including people, die eventually and then they stay dead. That's usually about as far as you can take it at that age; most people don't get a real concept of their mortality until the teens or so.
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#9 May 07 2004 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Skeeter the Venerable wrote:
Don't read it AND reply.

It's what we do.

Really though, way too damn long.


Yeah, I knew that was an option, but since it would happen anyway, I didn't offer it. :) Option C is always there, but never said, after all! ;)

Sorry it's long. I tend to be verbose, especially on serious topics. I did put my disclaimer at the top, afterall:
Quote:
OMG WTF!11! This is like, a serious post!! OMG LOLOLOL!!!11!one!!

Yeah, I know that isn't quite what I really wrote at top, but it works as an example. :)

I'd think as often as people posted links to news articles that people supposedly read, this message isn't that much longer than that.
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#10 May 07 2004 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
It's not a morning read, at least not for me, I'll get back to you in the afternoon when I've finished waking up.
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#11 May 07 2004 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I think it had something to do with whether or not to tell children about death and when.

Something like that, yeah. ;)

Jophie wrote:
My own kiddo knows about death at age five. At least he's aware that living things, including people, die eventually and then they stay dead. That's usually about as far as you can take it at that age; most people don't get a real concept of their mortality until the teens or so.


He didn't have any questions about what happens after death? Not even something childish like being eaten by worms, where do they go, anything like that?

And, do you think that the concept your son has is truly understood? I mean, you read about kids hitting other kids with hammers or shooting them with guns. Is that a factor of them not understanding death, or is a by-product of too much TV (as some people like to claim)?

If children are more like your son and understand the ramifications of death (they die and stay dead), would things like the incidence of children killing other children decrease? Or are they too young even if they "get" the idea of death, to really understand what it would mean if they shot someone in the face?

(or does that require some type of understanding of what a gun does? Which goes on back to the idea of what is and is not appropriate things to teach children about. Teach them about the dangers of a gun, and would they then be less likely to accidentally shoot someone, or "protect" them from guns and death and have such things be more likely?)

Whoops, there I go being all verbose again.
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#12 May 07 2004 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Actually I had read the entire post. I liked it personally. It states some very well thought out points. Perhaps you took My joke as serious. Seeing as you went into the topic of cloning.
I'm personally 100% for cloaning. I think organs should be farmed for transplants and I believe we need to invest heavily in stem cell research.
As for death. I do believe that you should explain it to children who are old enough to understand what it means. If a child of 10 is intelligent enough to know about murder, drugs and what goes on in schools and on the streets then they understand death is permenant.
And younger kids need to be told on a individual basis. Not all 6 yr olds are mature enough to handle death and all it contains. But there are some that can.

Edited, Fri May 7 10:38:50 2004 by EQDom
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#13 May 07 2004 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Skeeter, not a morning person wrote:
It's not a morning read, at least not for me, I'll get back to you in the afternoon when I've finished waking up.


Sounds good to me. :) Though, I usually can only post in the mornings.. oh well, I'll just play catch up tomorrow or something.
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#14 May 07 2004 at 9:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And, do you think that the concept your son has is truly understood?
Maybe? Heh, I'm no child psychologist to be saying when kids definately understand an abstract concept. For example, my son has a favorite Yu-Gi-Oh card (he likes the pictures) and one day I noticed it was all smashed up. I asked him why and he had some reason or another about why he jumped on it in the course of his playing. Now, I'm sure if you asked him a day before "If you jump on a card, will it get smashed up?" he'd have said yes. But children that age don't have much concept of time, permenance, etc.

So, if you were having a discussion with my son about death, I'm sure he could and would tell you that death is forever. But that doesn't mean that it'd occur to him that death is forever before he stomped on a worm or something.
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#15 May 07 2004 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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EQDom wrote:
Actually I had read the entire post. I liked it personally. It states some very well thought out points. Perhaps you took My joke as serious.


Sorry to have jumped on you then. See, assumptions make an ass of me and me! (how trite can I be? ;)

Quote:
I'm personally 100% for cloaning. I think organs should be farmed for transplants and I believe we need to invest heavily in stem cell research.


I also am for cloning, but I think it does need to be heavily regulated, to avoid whole PEOPLE from being cloned and then killed for organs. Stem cell research is the way to go. If you can grow an organ in vitro from someone so it's entirely compatable, that's wonderful! And better than even xenographs from antigen-free pigs (which is currently what is being looked at), since it's that persons OWN tissue, no need for immunosuppression or waiting lists.

One of the worst decisions (I think) was the ban on harvesting stem cells from aborted fetuses for research purposes (unless something happened to that and it didn't go through or something. I tend to be slightly behind on current events like that), because those fetuses are being aborted anyway, they may as well put their aborted little lives to the purpose of developing things that will save other peoples lives.

Quote:
As for death. I do believe that you should explain it to children who are old enough to understand what it means. If a child of 10 is intelligent enough to know about murder, drugs and what goes on in schools and on the streets then they understand death is permenant.


Ah, but that then depends on what the parent believes. Some parents are wonderfully blind to society and what their kids really go through at school (or simply don't care). Just like parents who insist that their kids know nothing about sex! They're pure innocent little angels! How dare you say condom around their kid! (so their kid can then get pregnant at 15 because they were never taught about condoms, but that's a whole other kettle of fish in my book. ;)

Which then begs the question - if we protected kids from ALL that stuff - go in with the whole deal, censor TV to take out drugs, violence, murder, rape, etc, so they have no concept of that, make sure everyone goes for it and follows it to the letter, then would we have to teach kids about death, because they'd never know what it was (barring unforseen people dying in their lives due to medical reasons)?
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#16 May 07 2004 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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"DEATH is just another event in one long Life.. not the last thing, but the Least thing" ~ Morgan Llewellyn

Teach them that death is jsut the turnng of a page.. our lives are chapters to the long book of our immortal souls... Now you can't just tell them this.. otherwise they may stop caring about life.... a blnce must be achieved between valuing living a Good life.. and accepting the Fate that we must Move on. Teach them taht EVERYTHING they do matters..... and GOD... I can't go into this now.. I'm too caffeinated.. sry

When I was little I always thought about the fact that we are going to die.. and I was taught about Jesus. That provided me comfort...

Whe It get's to me now I just think.. HEy... Everyone has to eal with this..I'm not alone.. I'm 26 years old and there are people much closer to death than I am.. They deal with it.. so can I.

I think our Earthly lives are but a solid and finate reflection of our True Selves existing beyond the scope of the physical world....

I wish i wasn't at work and could elaborate.. but I don't have the patience at the moment.. the Terminal Server isn't updating, dammit.

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#17 May 07 2004 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Now, I'm sure if you asked him a day before "If you jump on a card, will it get smashed up?" he'd have said yes. But children that age don't have much concept of time, permenance, etc.


Excellent point. And very well said. Thank you. :)

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#18 May 07 2004 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
I can't go into this now.. I'm too caffeinated.. sry

No need to apologize. :) You can wax eloquent when your servers update. ;)

Quote:
When I was little I always thought about the fact that we are going to die.. and I was taught about Jesus. That provided me comfort...


And not to get into a religious discussion at all - but do you think that even if a parent is athiest, should they tell their kid about (a) Heaven so that their kid doesn't go nuts and try doing everything because they're one day going to end? After all, if life is only what we have now, what is to stop a kid from doing all sorts of destructive things (to themselves and others) in the name of living his life? It's the only one they get, after they die, that's it, it's over!


Quote:
I think our Earthly lives are but a solid and finate reflection of our True Selves existing beyond the scope of the physical world....

Faith is a wonderful thing, no matter what it is you believe in. ;)

I hope you get a chance to elaborate some more. :)
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#19 May 07 2004 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Atheism is Denial...


MOST athiests i've talked to say that they used to believe in somthing... But now they "hate God" so deny it's exsistance... nonsense..

btw.. I havn't read your whole post.. forgive me but I'm printing it and readin it at lunch.

So if you ar atheist.... I guess you would jsut Condition the Kid NOT to thinkabout anything like that.. "see that flame son.. one day you'll go out just like that ^^"

as opposed to... "see that drying drop of water son.. one day you'll dry up and drift into the sky too.. and then rain upon the Earth agian"..

EDITED cause I can't STFU about this sh*t ^^
ORRR.. Just don't say ANYThing at all about it... If they ask about death just change the subbject.. or make up some bull sh*t that they won't remember anyway.. cuase they're just kids right?.
Or i suppose if youtold them taht thye are nothing but an Animated Meatbag.. eventually they;d get over it and come to grips with one day becoming Rotting maggot food... and nothing more.

ahh.. I didn;'t wanto make a whol post.. but i live for this sh*t. be back in a bit.EDITED cause I can't STFU about this sh*t ^^

Edited, Fri May 7 11:26:19 2004 by Kelvyquayo
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#20 May 07 2004 at 10:25 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo the Malevolent wrote:
MOST athiests i've talked to say that they used to believe in somthing... But now they "hate God" so deny it's exsistance... nonsense..


People have their own reasons for denying the existance of a God/religion, of which they can be multiple, varied and each are valid in their own ways.

It's my opinion that people who say they hate God so deny the existance of God really do believe in God. (Because how do you hate something that doesn't exist? It can happen, but it's kind of hard.)
Edit: So saying, my brother is an athiest who is really an atheist. He doesn't hate God. He simply doesn't believe there is a God. I used to be an "athiest" who didn't believe in God because I was actually really really mad at Him. My grandmother is an "athiest" but she really believes in God, because she is constantly cursing Him out about taking her husband.
But religious topics tend to be very inflammatory, and I really don't want this to devolve into a flame-fest.
Edit 2: And yeah, I know, it's hard to have a discussion about death without religion coming in there somewhere. :)

Quote:
So if you ar atheist.... I guess you would jsut Condition the Kid NOT to thinkabout anything like that.. "see that flame son.. one day you'll go out just like that ^^"


Personally I'm not, though I still struggle with that aspect of my faith (comes from being a scientist, too. Lots of questions and desire for proof!).
Edit: I tend to use very non-inflammatory language, especially when it comes to religion and personal life choices, because they are sensitive subjects and I try to avoid flame-fests, but instead would far rather have a wide-ranging discussion. :)

And I think I asked above in another post - if you are an Athiest, would you lie to your kid and teach them some form of religion, just so you don't scare the bejeesus out of them (no pun intended) with such finality? And to allow them to come into the decision of what to believe themselves, when they're old enough to deal with issues as mortality (and religion, the two usually go hand in hand, I've noticed.)

Edited, Fri May 7 11:34:19 2004 by Kiatrix

Edited, Fri May 7 11:35:24 2004 by Kiatrix
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#21 May 07 2004 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
if you are an Athiest, would you lie to your kid and teach them some form of religion, just so you don't scare the bejeesus out of them (no pun intended) with such finality? And to allow them to come into the decision of what to believe themselves, when they're old enough to deal with issues as mortality (and religion, the two usually go hand in hand, I've noticed.)


eh.. just tell them the Truth.. No one really knows.. but alot of people think they know and will try ot get you to believe waht they think... Tell them not to let them do it.... tell them that the universe is full of wonderful mysteries for each person to figure out.. and one day they will have their chace to figure it out on there own..... But Until that time I am your God!! LOL
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#22 May 07 2004 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent

Ok I'm back, lat time I saw this post it was 8 am, now I'm good to go!

yeah I agree with you on some of this stuff buddy, when our dog Snoopy died we told my little sister that he went to go live on a big farm that a friend of my grandpa's had, she was about 6 or 7 at the time. are we actually telling kids lie's rasing them up in a fictional world so when they hit the real world it punches them in the face? no not really. theres a certain extent when we should start telling little kids about death, and thats for the parent to decide because they will know if the child is ready or not yet.

but anyways believe me there is no one to stop it because they will find out before you want them to, either some kid who's parents let him watch anything he wants tells them or they see it on T.V.

Best to just go with the flow, life is tough buddy, get a helment! BONK!

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#23 May 07 2004 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
life is tough buddy, get a helment


That was very @#%^ing Denis Leary of you. ^^
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#24 May 07 2004 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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That was very @#%^ing Dalliance already said it and is quoted in a sig of you...
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#25 May 07 2004 at 8:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Atheism is Denial...




If one person believes something absurd he's crazy.
If a thousand people believe it, they're a cult.
If a million people believe it, its a religion.



Edited, Fri May 7 21:36:13 2004 by Deathwysh
#26 May 07 2004 at 11:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Very true.

It really is just about what is most accepted by your current society.

Everyone fits into their group somehow, if not they want to. And they defend it, whatever it is, generally without thinking outside of how the others of their party do.

That's life. Most people don't like to put themselves into other people's shoes, who have other beliefs, and think about it from that perspective. They are convinced they are right, and as such must convince others that they are right, partially to assure themselves that they are not incorrect.

I don't know or care if there is a god. I look at what I see, and make my judgements from that. Leave faith for people who don't like to think for themselves.
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#27 May 08 2004 at 11:01 AM Rating: Decent
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waht is this 'god' you speak of?

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