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Teal vs. AF handsFollow

#1 Aug 05 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Decent
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How well does 5 singing skill stack up against 5 magic accuracy? If magic acc is stronger, is it strong enough to make up for the one less point of chr on teal? I'm not sure which I should be debuffing in.

Also, when/if I am able to get the +1 version, I'm assuming +10 skill and +7 chr is obviously better than teal for debuffs, but please, correct me if I'm wrong.
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#2 Aug 05 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Good
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As far as i know, bard songs haven't been tested. I've always assumed that 2 skill = 1 macc, what with having twice as much skill and all, but it could very well be 1:1. We just don't know for sure.
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#3 Aug 05 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Ah, thanks. I guess in light of that, I'd rather macro in teal, and take the gamble of losing just one chr on buffs as opposed to losing half the magic acc.


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#4 Aug 05 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, to be honest, i'd be a bit surprised if 1 skill=1 macc for songs, but again, we just don't know for sure.
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#5 Aug 05 2010 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
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That makes a lot of sense. I didn't stop to consider having double skill.

Where are all the people who test these things when we need them?
I can't test anything; I'm too busy checking Alla to see if someone else has taken the initiative for me.
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#6 Aug 05 2010 at 8:30 PM Rating: Good
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You can't be that busy with alla, mr. 73 posts.
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#7 Aug 05 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't say I took the initiative to post, either. Just read, lol.

Oh, and, to be perfectly picky: Ms.*

Edit: 74* :D I can feel my worth as a human being slowly rising.

Edited, Aug 5th 2010 10:38pm by RizzoRazzle
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#8 Aug 06 2010 at 7:47 AM Rating: Good
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Well the usual "We don't know" disclaimer applies here but:

If you take the Occam's Razor approach, there's no reason for SE to re-invent magic accuracy / magic evasion / magic hit rate for songs. Currently it IS proven that 1 Skill in Elemental/Enfeebling = 1 MACC, and further evidence supports Dark/Ninjutsu and Blue Magic works the same. For the sake of simplicity, it would be the best answer to assume 1 Sing/String/Wind = 1 MACC. This doesn't mean it's true, but the chances of it being different, with a whole new formula just for songs....We'll it *is* SE we are talking about...

Anyways, your going to want to AF+1 hands anyways for the extra CHR and the fact that skill can be used for debuffs AND buffs.


Edited, Aug 6th 2010 9:51am by Asmoranomar
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#9 Aug 06 2010 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Asmoranomar wrote:
Well the usual "We don't know" disclaimer applies here but:

If you take the Occam's Razor approach, there's no reason for SE to re-invent magic accuracy / magic evasion / magic hit rate for songs. Currently it IS proven that 1 Skill in Elemental/Enfeebling = 1 MACC, and further evidence supports Dark/Ninjutsu and Blue Magic works the same. For the sake of simplicity, it would be the best answer to assume 1 Sing/String/Wind = 1 MACC. This doesn't mean it's true, but the chances of it being different, with a whole new formula just for songs....We'll it *is* SE we are talking about...

Anyways, your going to want to AF+1 hands anyways for the extra CHR and the fact that skill can be used for debuffs AND buffs.
The major difference though is that it draws from two different skills, instead of just one.
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#10 Aug 06 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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I understand that, and if it wasn't for that specific piece I'd call you crazy for using the "We don't know" caviet.
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#11 Aug 06 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Decent
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We know how bad the accuracy of Requiem is. Think how much more terrible it would have to be if songs were 1:1 and 550 combined skill couldn't land it :(


Nevertheless my opinion is for debuff AF+1>Teal>AF and for buff AF+1>AF and teal shouldnt even be considered.

For legs I would go w/ teal>af+1 for debuff but thats assuming a 2:1 for skill/macc.
#12 Aug 06 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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I really think this thing with requiem having bad accuracy is being falsely attributed to the fact that a lot of mobs are just immune to it. I can't remember ever having a noteworthy issue landing it on something like chariots or omega, although I was surprised to find they weren't immune.
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#13 Aug 07 2010 at 11:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I was curious about the teal body vs. errant body for debuffing. Would switching to a 3/5 teal set (hands, legs, body) be a wise move if one doesn't have AF+1 hands or any endgame body pieces? For me personally, I'd be switching out errant body, shair legs, and AF hand for the teal gear.
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#14 Aug 11 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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We know how bad the accuracy of Requiem is. Think how much more terrible it would have to be if songs were 1:1 and 550 combined skill couldn't land it :(


Nevertheless my opinion is for debuff AF+1>Teal>AF and for buff AF+1>AF and teal shouldnt even be considered.

For legs I would go w/ teal>af+1 for debuff but thats assuming a 2:1 for skill/macc.


A lot of notorious monsters that have been added since the release of ToAU are completely immune to Requiem. It's not an issue of the spell's accuracy or anything, just Square Enix deciding that they didn't want that particular DoT to work on the NMs. This is the same as how a lot of the newer NMs are immune to Bind, Gravity, and Sleep.
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#15 Aug 13 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I was curious about the teal body vs. errant body for debuffing. Would switching to a 3/5 teal set (hands, legs, body) be a wise move if one doesn't have AF+1 hands or any endgame body pieces? For me personally, I'd be switching out errant body, shair legs, and AF hand for the teal gear.


I believe CHR functions like the other stats, in that 1 CHR is roughly half of 1 macc, so teal body and pants would be better than the pieces you listed. Of course, I'm only guessing.

Edited, Aug 13th 2010 10:14pm by RizzoRazzle
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#16 Aug 24 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A lot of notorious monsters that have been added since the release of ToAU are completely immune to Requiem. It's not an issue of the spell's accuracy or anything, just Square Enix deciding that they didn't want that particular DoT to work on the NMs. This is the same as how a lot of the newer NMs are immune to Bind, Gravity, and Sleep.


The ironic bit is, the whole Don't Want These Important Mobs Defeated Easily purpose would have been served a lot better if they made them Elegy-immune instead of Requiem-immune. That and many of them are still susceptible to Poison, which basically does the exact same thing.

It's kinda annoying how they give out all these Requiem spells (there are now 7 of them, more tiers than any other available spell in the game AFAIK) and make them all entirely ineffectual on even some of the more mundane NMs. It's not like a pimped out Requiem is going to be destroying these mobs any faster than any other caster job could.
#17 Aug 24 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
A lot of notorious monsters that have been added since the release of ToAU are completely immune to Requiem. It's not an issue of the spell's accuracy or anything, just Square Enix deciding that they didn't want that particular DoT to work on the NMs. This is the same as how a lot of the newer NMs are immune to Bind, Gravity, and Sleep.


The ironic bit is, the whole Don't Want These Important Mobs Defeated Easily purpose would have been served a lot better if they made them Elegy-immune instead of Requiem-immune. That and many of them are still susceptible to Poison, which basically does the exact same thing.

It's kinda annoying how they give out all these Requiem spells (there are now 7 of them, more tiers than any other available spell in the game AFAIK) and make them all entirely ineffectual on even some of the more mundane NMs. It's not like a pimped out Requiem is going to be destroying these mobs any faster than any other caster job could.


Whoa, whoa... we don't want brds DoT kiting Cargo Crab Colin to death solo.
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#18 Aug 26 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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Should I be ditching my Osode in favour of a Teal Saio for debuffs?

#19 Oct 25 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Decent
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@eldephia: I'd stick with Osode. CHR has a much bigger impact on song acc that say, MND for paralyze. Offers more MP for /whm/rdm/sch, ans last, it just looks better.
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#20 Oct 26 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
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Cigarman wrote:
@eldephia: I'd stick with Osode. CHR has a much bigger impact on song acc that say, MND for paralyze. Offers more MP for /whm/rdm/sch, ans last, it just looks better.


What nonsense is this? Can you please cite your references? As far as any tests that have been done, CHR offers the same amount of MACC that MND or INT does for their respective spells. In addition to that, your target (and its corresponding stats) is going to determine the exact amount of MACC you will receive via stats.

In terms of Magic Accuracy, you will receive:
Kirin's Osode: 5-10 Variable MACC
Teal Saio: 4 Fixed MACC and an additional 3-6 Variable MACC

Teal Saio will offer more MACC on average than Kirin's Osode, but will peak out the same. It only offer's 6 less MP than Osode, and /facepalm at looks.

If your going to pick some good features of the Osode, at least point out that it has a higher defense rating, and large gains in VIT and AGI (increases defense, decreases enemy critical hit rate, increases evasion). It isn't much, but at this point MP should be a non-issue for most. 6 MP wouldn't even buy you an extra cure - for example.

Advice? If all you care is MACC, then keep Saio. If you play other jobs or care about other stats, keep both.

Edited, Oct 26th 2010 5:35pm by Asmoranomar
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#21 Oct 27 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Decent
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Ok, maybe I just didn't word it right. There comes a point when having over a certain amount of CHR makes for nearly capped "fCHR". Although I have to say that ever since the new level cap is in scene, I have absolutely no clue on what your CHR needs to be in order to get to that point. As you might very well remember, this "cap" point was achieved upon 120ish CHR for Sky Gods, which were one of the hardest mobs to land elegy on, and in situations when you do not need to stck fastcast or a magic/physical reduction set to survive songcasting, Osode was a damned good piece since it allows(or allowed) to reach the cap while using some other stuff like Nereid Rings/Musical or relative earrings, some AF (specfically legs) and in some instances the sea cape, unless you had some strange stuff like CHR merits.

Furthermore, and I realize this is just eyeballing and not a proper test, Nyzul bosses -although weakened- never seemed to resist me when I sung a couple of CHR etudes on me prior to the debuff (and trust me I did a load of it), but once those wear or I overwrite the songs, it became a matter of luck to reapply (assuming they were still alive by that point) or Finale (a song with a naturally huge magic acc). In the end, and having played RDM and WHM, I'd say CHR has a much bigger impact in song accuracy than MND/INT does for their respective debuffs, as CHR seems to be "tiered", pretty much like DEX is, making the addition of CHR up to a point a must, and past that treshold it becomes useless. But then, in lieu of being repetitive, at this point we have no idea on the CHR needed to reach that cap, let alone the particular resistances of every mob in Abyssea (which seems much lower compared to what sea/sky gods were), so unless you need a specific setup to stay alive/refresh/etc., I think the safe bet is going for Osode.

As for the other stats, they are a nice added bonus. The MP difference, although small as you say, is important if you plan on a max MP set for long low man fights, as every single point of MP might count (remember those bonuses multiply depending on abyssites held, the status of Martellos, etc.), and still on this day, Dalmatica is being a bitch to get, but also lowers your HP by 50, and Marduk is still king, but no one does Salvage anymore. If anything, AGI will do next to nothing, I'd just mention the MND and VIT for self cures, in case you need, and some laughable damage reduction from physical AoE's.

I don't say flat out that it is better than the Saio, if you read the resons stated above, and the post you replied to, that's what I'd do, in terms of raw stats they come up pretty close, but to be honest much of it has to do with the fact that Osode, to me, looks better, although if you have some other jobs that use it, I understand your sight sickness of it.
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#22 Oct 27 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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Cigarman wrote:
There comes a point when having over a certain amount of CHR makes for nearly capped "fCHR".


Incorrect. There is no fCHR function. There *IS* a dStat function but it works completely differently than what you described. You can never cap out on CHR and adding more will always benefit you.

Quote:
As you might very well remember, this "cap" point was achieved upon 120ish CHR for Sky Gods


Incorrect. What you are describing is the the base stats of HNM's around that level. They are more important for estimating damage (in the case of INT) and estimating the maximum magic accuracy bonus received from stats. It *is* a good reference to go by, but your reasoning (via caps) is wrong. Furthermore, CHR and Skill can be directly tied to MACC - it is therefore impossible to tell someone to 'cap' one and wear gear for another.

Is it good to tell someone to reach 120 stat? Yes. Should you tell people to stop wearing CHR after 120 and focus on other stuff? No. CHR never gets to a point where it becomes worthless and you should still wear whatever piece of gear will give you the larger of the bonus. This is why things like Jester's Cape +1 (5 to 10 MACC) will generally be better than Astute Cape (5 MACC), even when your over the dStat tier.

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never seemed to resist me when I sung a couple of CHR etudes on me prior to the debuff


Duh?

Quote:
I'd say CHR has a much bigger impact in song accuracy than MND/INT does for their respective debuffs, as CHR seems to be "tiered", pretty much like DEX is, making the addition of CHR up to a point a must, and past that treshold it becomes useless.


Incorrect. I'll save you the lecture on that one though because you already admitted you've been eyeballing it. There are some pretty impressive tests over the past few years on magic accuracy that stomp your 'eyeball' methods.

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...I think the safe bet is going for Osode.


In regards to MACC, I disagree. There's still purpose for Kirin's Osode outside of that.

Quote:
All the other stuff about stats and it's appearance.


He's talking about debuffs! I know we got side-tracked on the additional stats, but I was trying to make a point that HAD he asked about that THOSE would be the ones to point out. He didn't, and you tried to say Kirin's Osode is better. Not only are you wrong, but anything other than MACC is irrelevant anyways (for all we know he could be gear swapping, etc.).

Finally, it looks better? Seriously? Functionality > Looks. You shouldn't be giving advice at all if the foundation for it has to be 'it must look good'. Looks doesn't make you land spells better.

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 3:29pm by Asmoranomar
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#23 Oct 27 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Then why do you use Marduk's over Teal?

Let's just agree we have no clue if it's 2CHR-1skill or 1:1. Otherwise I'd be all over that Piper Torque, and so would you. At any rate, I'm not gonna be the one who tests it since level 85 stuff is so unresistant I'll never have a good mob to spam, other than NM's which are meant to die, are a pain to pop, etc. Nice gear btw.

EDIT: I'll just add, in regards to my etude before debuff strat, that I highly doubt those 12~15 macc I get from CHR suddenly make me jump from a 20% land rate to nearly 95%, even though I said I was eyeballing (20% might be skewed since I try not to debuff w/o Etude, it is rare to get to use finale on them, no one does Nyzul anymore, and furthermore, I'm not willing to delevel to 75 to check it out, lol) it is impossible to get that huge boost considering how we know m.acc and to a better extent physical acc. (2=1% land) work, so I'd say that, coupled with the whole 120CHR theory that was floating around when 75 was the cap, leads me to believe there is a tier on CHR, you just wouldn't land any debuff reliably on sky Gods back then without 120CHR.

Of course it won't hurt adding more in regards to more m.acc., that's a given, however, IF you know the number, AND then get to the treshold, and have to choose between comparable CHR and M.acc., I'd go for the straight M.Acc. I just say Osode might be the safer bet on those NM's you don't really know how much CHR you need to reach that point, which is why I say that due to the lack of harder NM's at the moment and the ignorance about their raw stats, it is impossible to determine at this moment, therefore my suggestion to wear Osode for those.

Also, don't think about CHR in the same way you do INT or MND, I'm talking of more of a DEX tier functionality, the way it is tiered for critical hits, where if you don't break a tier, it is pointless to add more of it. Not controverting the "More CHR=More m.acc." because I know it is true and thus adding more will benefit you, just saying that you can get to treshold or capped tier I'm referencing and then add more M.Acc, instead of going all out M.acc. and getting resisted from a weak CHR build.

You can surely find the info on the mythical ~120CHR figure somewhere around here, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who noticed while debuffing sky/sea/limbus that if you didn't get to that number, you just were doinitwrong, since nothing was landing, aside from retarded stuff like Genbu which required /blm at the time, not sure about now. (That's a mob I'd like to test on, now that I think about it)

Edited, Oct 27th 2010 2:57pm by Cigarman
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#24 Oct 27 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Good
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Cigarman wrote:
Then why do you use Marduk's over Teal?

I haven't updated my gear set in over a year+ and I only did it to show a friend how to build an SST setup, so don't rely on it. Also, Marduk Jubbah would give a MACC bonus of 6-12, against Teal Saio's 7-10. Since I gear for worst case scenario (and the bigger bonus), I still wear Marduk.

Quote:
Let's just agree we have no clue if it's 2CHR-1skill or 1:1.

The problem is, it's Both (I'm also assuming you mean skill=MACC, otherwise your wrong). Tests show that the type of bonus you get is both 1:1 and 2:1 or VERY close. Your target's stats determine WHEN this changes from 1:1 to 2:1. The higher the mob's stats, the more MACC you receive from stats.

Quote:
Otherwise I'd be all over that Piper Torque, and so would you.

I have/use one.

Quote:
At any rate, I'm not gonna be the one who tests it since level 85 stuff is so unresistant I'll never have a good mob to spam, other than NM's which are meant to die, are a pain to pop, etc.

You don't need high level mobs to test this. Much of the tests have been done against lower level mobs. As long as you know the enemy's base stats you can measure stat's effects of MACC.

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Nice gear btw.

Thank you.

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Stuff about MACC and PACC

First: MACC works nothing like PACC. They are calculated completely differently, so you cannot assume the same. You really need to read up on how MACC is calculated.

Second: You underestimate how much Etudes and their effect on MACC works on mobs you are under-geared for. If you have a high resist rate, your Etudes will give you a 24 MACC bonus without a proper instrument. This is a little less than what a HQ staff would give you under the same conditions.

Third: Your understanding of how MACC is used to determine Magic Hit Rate (and by extension, how PACC determines Hit Rate) is flawed. Infact, what you said makes no sense. When we talk about percentages, we are talking about Magic/Physical Hit Rates. 1 MACC could increase Magic Hit Rate by 5%, or it could increase it by 50% - This all depends on the target's natural Magic Evasion stat. MACC and Magic Hit Rate are NOT the same thing.

Quote:
leads me to believe there is a tier on CHR

There is, I told you that. But the tier isn't 120 CHR, it's dStat.

Quote:
comparable CHR and M.acc., I'd go for the straight M.Acc.

It depends on your definition of comparable. Due to your misunderstanding, I can see why you'd do MACC. However, The real answer is "Whatever is better". As I said before, there is never a point where CHR is useless. For example, if you have a piece of gear that grants +10 MACC and one that grants +12 CHR, there will be times when the MACC piece wins and times when the CHR piece will win (depends on your target). At this point it becomes a matter of preference between what is more reliable (MACC), and what will give you the stronger edge against tougher mobs (CHR).

My personal preference is to pick the piece of gear that has the stronger edge. There are a lot of reasons why I do this, but the biggest reason is because if it does come down to the CHR dStat, then it already means I'm over-geared for my target and I'm going to have an adequate Magic Hit Rate. In no way am I suggesting everyone has to play this way, there are strategic uses for a reliance build too - especially if you don't do HNMs.

Quote:
Also, don't think about CHR in the same way you do INT or MND, I'm talking of more of a DEX tier functionality, the way it is tiered for critical hits, where if you don't break a tier, it is pointless to add more of it. Not controverting the "More CHR=More m.acc." because I know it is true and thus adding more will benefit you, just saying that you can get to treshold or capped tier I'm referencing and then add more M.Acc, instead of going all out M.acc. and getting resisted from a weak CHR build.


In regards to DEX and Critical Hit Rate - There is no such tier. DEX operates on an exponential curve, which means you have to have lots of it in order to see the larger gains - but every point of DEX increases your Critical Hit Rate (unless your capped at 20%). This has been extensively tested, and the math for it has been released by Studio Gobli (which many assume the data is generated from SE insiders).

Back to CHR - There is no part of the MACC formula that works like DEX does for Critical Hit Rate. Low/High stat builds have been tested and exhibit predictable MACC rates.

Quote:
You can surely find the info on the mythical ~120CHR figure somewhere around here, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who noticed while debuffing sky/sea/limbus that if you didn't get to that number, you just were doinitwrong, since nothing was landing, aside from retarded stuff like Genbu which required /blm at the time, not sure about now. (That's a mob I'd like to test on, now that I think about it)


Why can you not understand that the community was incorrect in its assumptions? The system you are describing was theoretical (not proven), and was found to be wrong. Your sitting in the middle of 4+ year-old knowledge. I'm not debating that people used to think this was true, I'm telling you it is incorrect.

I don't see why your stuck on something that was never tested and proven - when you have one person doing 8,000 tests with 95% confidence, and hundreds of other smaller tests that support it. Not to mention that there are NO tests that show the system works differently for CHR or supports any type of method you describe. All of these tests began back in 2008, so none of this information is exactly new now. Most people stopped believing in the 120 Cap even before then.

If your unwilling to provide accurate data that proves your system works, or do the work yourself, then please stop providing advice regarding a system that has been debunked years ago.

If you need links, let me know and I'll provide what I can. I'm not the go-to person for every available resource/test, but I can most certainly point you to references that can get you started. Having a JPN Translator might help too.

Edited, Oct 28th 2010 7:00am by Asmoranomar
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#25 Oct 30 2010 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I see. Well, seems like I need to move out from the 2005 mentality, lol. Ok, so you say that the less CHR you have compared to the target's, the more CHR gives. This I understand, and can make sense to me based on previous experiences. Do MND and INT "dSTAT" have the same effect on M.Acc than CHR?

Then, it's worth it to get CHR until the point it gives less and then go M.Acc, correct? Seems to me we understand each other, but I clearly did not have the resources or info to convey it. Then, The lower your CHR, the more CHR is worth, so Osode better, but as you approach that point, CHR gives less, so Teal comes into the equation. Still, even then, Marduk Jubbah seems like a winner piece for debuffs over those two in any situation, since anything that you need that much CHR to approach dSTAT you're song acc is capped anyway. Once reaching this optimal point (that, from what I understand now is not tiered, but a function of pcCHR vs. mobCHR, so varies from mob to mob) seems like Teal is better than I expected for debuffs past that point.

However, imagine there is a new Kirin-style (nvm the elemental affinities, I mean something comparable level-wise) added of sorts, what would you cast Elegy on? (assuming no Marduk)
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#26 Oct 30 2010 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Cigarman wrote:
I see. Well, seems like I need to move out from the 2005 mentality, lol. Ok, so you say that the less CHR you have compared to the target's, the more CHR gives.
Not exactly. You get either 1 macc per mnd/int/chr, or 1 macc per 2 stat. If you're stat minus the mob's appropriate stat is > 10, then you get macc in a 1:2 ratio. If it's lower than 10, then you get 1:1. You'll basically always have >10 Δstat, so you can just simplify it to 2 chr = 1 macc, as that's the case 99.99% of the time
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#27 Oct 30 2010 at 10:28 PM Rating: Good
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Cigarman wrote:
Do MND and INT "dSTAT" have the same effect on M.Acc than CHR?

At the moment, any tests done with CHR show that it is the same or very close as with INT/MND. It is safe to assume it is the same for now.

Quote:
Stuff about Kirin's Osode, Teal Saio, Maruk's Jubbah

Its all about the MACC ranges and whether you want something more reliable or stronger.

Kirin's Osode: 5~10 MACC
Teal Saio: 7~10 MACC
Marduk's Jubbah: 6~12 MACC

Teal Saio *could* beat Marduk if dStat leans toward the lower end (2CHR:1MACC).

Quote:
However, imagine there is a new Kirin-style (nvm the elemental affinities, I mean something comparable level-wise) added of sorts, what would you cast Elegy on?


There are already a few mobs that have or had high resistance rates since the Kirin days. They are the reason why I continue to gear for the stronger bonus, rather than what is more reliable. As I stated before, I really don't have issues with the peon mobs of FFXI - so losing some MACC due to dStat isn't a big deal to me. Absolute worst case (ie: Mob with 0 CHR), I'd lose 71 MACC due to dStat - it sounds big, but when your sitting between (an assumed) 765-841+ MACC its not an issue (It would be entertaining to see a mob with 0 CHR and incredibly high magic evasion tho - I'd be @#%^ed) As the mobs CHR increases, the MACC I would have received between the gear I could have worn and the gear I am wearing narrows.

At this point, I can't really say how much it has paid off, since the level cap has been raised and I'm still well over-geared for anything. I do know that some of the non-main BRDs in my LS have trouble landing debuffs after they dinged into Teal Saio before they hit 85. And even at 85, some of the Abyssea NMs and HNMs give them trouble at times. I never experienced any difficulties, so I'd like to think there's still a dividing line - just not as big as there was before. Atma also plays a new role, and can easily balance things out between players.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 12:33am by Asmoranomar
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#28 Oct 31 2010 at 5:01 AM Rating: Default
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Asmoranomar wrote:
Quote:
Stuff about Kirin's Osode, Teal Saio, Maruk's Jubbah

Its all about the MACC ranges and whether you want something more reliable or stronger.

Kirin's Osode: 5~10 MACC
Teal Saio: 7~10 MACC
Marduk's Jubbah: 6~12 MACC

Teal Saio *could* beat Marduk if dStat leans toward the lower end (2CHR:1MACC).
You are wrong. There are no ranges. 10 chr gives either 5, or 10. Nothing in between.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 7:01am by ThePsychoticOne
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#29 Oct 31 2010 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are no ranges. 10 chr gives either 5, or 10. Nothing in between.


There are ranges. Every single test has shown that you get 1 MACC from stats *UNTIL* you reach the dStat point. After the dStat point, additional points give 1 MACC for every 2 Stat. There has even been tests by lodeguy, Kanican, and others that specifically prove this.

I can see where the confusion comes from though. Wiki gives the formulas only for dStat, and says nothing of the other stats up to that point (actually it does, it's just not in formula form). If you gear below dStat, you will get the full bonus. If you gear above dStat, you will get half the bonus. If you gear between dStat, you will get a variable bonus based on where you broke dStat.
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#30 Oct 31 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Default
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Asmoranomar wrote:
Quote:
There are no ranges. 10 chr gives either 5, or 10. Nothing in between.
There are ranges. Every single test has shown that you get 1 MACC from stats *UNTIL* you reach the dStat point. After the dStat point, additional points give 1 MACC for every 2 Stat. There has even been tests by lodeguy, Kanican, and others that specifically prove this.
That's what i said Smiley: frown

Quote:
If you gear between dStat, you will get a variable bonus based on where you broke dStat.
That's not a variable bonus. You get 1 macc per stat up until Δstat=10, and then 1 per 2 stat after that.
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#31 Oct 31 2010 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Princess ThePsychoticOne wrote:
Asmoranomar wrote:
Quote:
There are no ranges. 10 chr gives either 5, or 10. Nothing in between.
There are ranges. Every single test has shown that you get 1 MACC from stats *UNTIL* you reach the dStat point. After the dStat point, additional points give 1 MACC for every 2 Stat. There has even been tests by lodeguy, Kanican, and others that specifically prove this.
That's what i said Smiley: frown


Clearly you didn't. You said that there are no ranges, I said there was. You said it was always either 5 or 10, I said it could be in between.

Quote:
That's not a variable bonus. You get 1 macc per stat up until Δstat=10, and then 1 per 2 stat after that.

Sorry, the bonus you get is static, the point where you might hit the change between 1:1 and 1:2 may be variable (it depends on your target). I thought it was clear that I was talking about that, but I guess not.

For example - Say you are fighting a mob with 110 CHR and you have 115 CHR. Equipping Kirin's Osode would give you +10 CHR, and put you at 125 CHR. You would break dStat at 120CHR, and would receive 5 MACC (to finish reaching the dStat limit) and an aditional 2 MACC (2.5, but floored).

In this example, Kirin's Osode would would give you 7 MACC.

Earlier you said that it was either one or the other. This example shows that it can be between. You don't lose the MACC Bonus of ALL your Stats if you break dStat.

Edited, Oct 31st 2010 1:51pm by Asmoranomar
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