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BRD and Subjobs after level cap increasesFollow

#1 Apr 18 2010 at 10:18 PM Rating: Good
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I've been browsing through each job forum looking at threads concerning subjobs with the new level caps coming up and didn't find one on the first page of the BRD forum, and personally, I'm pretty darn curious what BRD will be looking at for subjobs when the cap hits 99.

I see mostly /whm pretty much all the way until 74, when pulling becomes less hazardous and more beneficial for parties thanks to Utsu: Ni /nin.

But, when I used to play BRD, I liked RDM because of Fast Cast.

Now?

RDM would still give Fast Cast I and II, but you'd also get Convert (we'll see how this is when subbed), Refresh and Haste. Could 99 BRD/RDM become the ULTIMATE party buffer? (obviously BRD is already a damn good buffer, but c'mon...this would be just pure awesomness)
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#2 Apr 18 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Good
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Rdm will be an excellent sub. Just keep in mind that rdm does not get -nas, but if those aren't needed, it will likely be the default sub for brd.
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#3 Apr 19 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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In certain very specific situations, /COR may be viable. I.e. you're already rolling with a RDM in the BLM party, or all your mages are /SCH. Could work in a melee party as well. However, splitting haste duties with your healer and ensuring that all 4 melees are getting 35%~ total haste at all times would almost definitely outweigh the benefits of a gimpy DA or attack roll.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 9:38am by AmeiliaLakshmi
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#4 Apr 19 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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/COR would only offer a few more rolls. I suppose it would be situationally useful, but having half potency buffs seems to ruin the better rolls. Refresh would be better than Evoker's. Haste would be better than Fighter's. I wouldn't really envision this any better than what is available now.

But there's always the possibility that SE adds more to or adjusts the jobs (they even hinted at this during vanafest). Until such things happen tho, we'll still probably be stuck at WHM, NIN and RDM.
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#5 Apr 19 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Roller wrote:
I see mostly /whm pretty much all the way until 74, when pulling becomes less hazardous and more beneficial for parties thanks to Utsu: Ni /nin.
/WHM is good til about 24 then /NIN all the rest of the way. It'll still be an awesome subjob 76+.
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#6 Apr 19 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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Depends on what you're doing. You can pull most things just fine with /WHM, and if so, there's little reason to use /NIN.
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#7 Apr 19 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Isiolia wrote:
Depends on what you're doing. You can pull most things just fine with /WHM, and if so, there's little reason to use /NIN.


STOP!


....this is why we don't discuss subjobs on the BRD forums.
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#8 Apr 19 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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:O
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#9 Apr 19 2010 at 9:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm.. confused XD sorry.. but my brds still lvl 1 (planning to lvl it!) and i haven't really read anything on brd... but what Asmoranomar said kind of confused me <.<;
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#10 Apr 20 2010 at 12:45 AM Rating: Decent
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It will depend on how convert is implemented, among other things. I can see a higher WHM sub still being useful for Stona.

The mage subs will gain some traction over NIN just because of the increase in potential curing power with CureIV. I doubt a RDM sub gets Refresh. Haste, maybe -- Refresh? Doubtful.

I'm fully expecting the "support healer" side of the job to take over a bit more.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 2:47am by Ezzelin
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#11 Apr 20 2010 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
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Ezzelin wrote:
It will depend on how convert is implemented, among other things. I can see a higher WHM sub still being useful for Stona.

The mage subs will gain some traction over NIN just because of the increase in potential curing power with CureIV. I doubt a RDM sub gets Refresh. Haste, maybe -- Refresh? Doubtful.

I'm fully expecting the "support healer" side of the job to take over a bit more.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 2:47am by Ezzelin
Have they ever before blocked a Spell from being usable while subbed? I doubt they'll start doing that now.

And, if things continue the way they have been concerning end game parties and such, what are the odds that a support healer will even be necessary? BRD got pulled into the /nin crowd because it was discovered that BRD did a decent job of pulling even WHILE keeping the party buffed.

So, unless the types of XPing we'll be encountering after 75 will be drastically different and back to your "pre-Utsu-&-WS-Burn" parties where having a job that would pretty much only be healing and possibly having a backup healer and hell, maybe even making SCs again, I doubt BRD's role will change that much.

But I'm crossing every body part I can that they bring back some kind of need to make SCs again. I'm not a fan of WS spam, mostly because I LOVED the party coordination involved in making SCs and then MBing off've them. Assuming you didn't have an idiot in your party that didn't understand SCing or MBing, those were some of the most fun times I had, trying to figure out what the best SC we could make was, and factoring in what our Caster DPS's highest spell was, etc. Good times!
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#12 Apr 20 2010 at 4:57 AM Rating: Good
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Roller wrote:
But I'm crossing every body part I can that they bring back some kind of need to make SCs again.


The idea of reviving skill chains makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I hope SE does implement some type of monster weakness to skill chains and magic bursts for monsters in the add-on zones. I mean, I'd like to see an earth-shattering weakness to SC + MB that basically makes Colibri a joke and gives Black Mages a chance to join normie parties instead of having to always Manaburn (although, Burnin' is a lot of fun in my opinion).

Now, if you're reading this, please SE make it a variety of mobs that are weak to a number of Skill Chains and Magic Bursts. Don't make it so it's only Polearm + Great Katana SCs. Give everyone a chance to play this game at the new higher levels (and play with others instead of having to solo all the damned time).
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#13 Apr 20 2010 at 5:13 AM Rating: Good
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Binckly wrote:
I'm.. confused XD sorry.. but my brds still lvl 1 (planning to lvl it!) and i haven't really read anything on brd... but what Asmoranomar said kind of confused me <.<;


Sorry, but every time the /WHM vs /NIN sub topic comes up, it spirals into a massive debate about which is better. That wasn't the purpose of this tread. If your looking for that I can point your way to a few hundred similar derailed topics. Furthermore, while speculation is all well and good, debates about which sub is better (note: not will be/might be) is just downright silly. This applies to levels below the current level cap (this thread is about the future levels, not what you did at level 20), as well as above the current level cap (because it and the surrounding content isn't here yet, where are you getting this nonsense that any sub is better?)

I didn't really intend for it to be all inclusive like I said it, I just didn't want this thread to be a total derail. Thinking about subs (and what we might get) is a good thing, reminding people that you can level your subjobs now is even better, but we don't need another /WHM vs /NIN discussion here.

Quote:
The mage subs will gain some traction over NIN just because of the increase in potential curing power with CureIV. I doubt a RDM sub gets Refresh. Haste, maybe -- Refresh? Doubtful.


If I remember correctly, I believe SE said during vanafest that RDM was too powerful and /RDM would give both convert and refresh, and they were looking for other ways for RDM to be more unique. They said this about other jobs, like lowering the level of the SAM ability Sekkanoki so it can be usable as a subjob. However, they also did mention that some abilities would not be available as a sub, such as WHM's Afflatus and NIN's Yonin/Innin. Things can always change, but I think it is safe to assume for now that some sort of refresh and convert ability will be available.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 10:25am by Asmoranomar
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#14 Apr 21 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Good
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The whole Refresh and Convert thing gives me warm and fuzzy feelings, which is why I'm so cautious about expecting it.

Take the proposed RNG enmity changes that were advertised for -- last update, I think? My brother was all set to resub when they decided not to make enmity changes based on distance or whatever it was.

It is precisely because I am looking forward to the proposed changes that I'm expecting them to give the subbed abilities or spells some kind of nerf bat.

And to answer the question asked a few posts ago, SE blocked the use of "Call Wyvern" while dragoon was subbed, and also made it so that subbed Utsu:Ni gets one less shadow than a NIN using the same spell. Although it's possible that we'll get fully powered subs when the patches are first released, I doubt it will stay that way.

Even if SE intends for the RDM job to be "less powerful," giving every other job the option to sub their "powerful" spells and abilities seems an odd fix to me. Why not just change the existing spells and abilities? Granted, SE's convoluted "solutions" to problems don't surprise me anymore (claim shield, etc.). Both Convert and Refresh have long been unique traits of the job, so I'm leery of expecting SE to give BRD either of those with full benefits.

I could see Convert only giving you half the value of your HP for instance ... or a 1 or 2 tick Refresh when subbed. Let's just say I'll be profoundly surprised if they implement even half of what they discussed at VanaFest.

Edit: I'll be even more surprised if anything they implement doesn't lead to disaster or recovery patches within 48hrs of initial release, too.

Edit2: SE has implied that Abyssea is going to be somehow nuts. Although I did KRT bones parties way way back when, and there will probably be burn spots for at least a few jobs in the future, I'm not counting on anything at this point. Making SC's vital to exp again would be interesting.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 6:15pm by Ezzelin
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#15 Apr 21 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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On one side, the existing areas are going to be made super easy. So SE might choose to restrict subjobs in some way so they aren't overpowered.

But then again, the fact that Abyssea is going to be insane could be reason enough to for SE to let loose and play the 'anything goes' card.

Honestly it could go either way. Which is why I mentioned that we should speculate on what we know and not be so quick to whip out 'x combination is better'. Right now we know we are going to get some form of refresh or convert. SE could restrict them, or add new spells and equipment for RDM only that would enhance these existing abilities.
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#16 Apr 21 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Good
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Ezzelin wrote:
The whole Refresh and Convert thing gives me warm and fuzzy feelings, which is why I'm so cautious about expecting it.

Take the proposed RNG enmity changes that were advertised for -- last update, I think? My brother was all set to resub when they decided not to make enmity changes based on distance or whatever it was.

It is precisely because I am looking forward to the proposed changes that I'm expecting them to give the subbed abilities or spells some kind of nerf bat.

And to answer the question asked a few posts ago, SE blocked the use of "Call Wyvern" while dragoon was subbed, and also made it so that subbed Utsu:Ni gets one less shadow than a NIN using the same spell. Although it's possible that we'll get fully powered subs when the patches are first released, I doubt it will stay that way.

Even if SE intends for the RDM job to be "less powerful," giving every other job the option to sub their "powerful" spells and abilities seems an odd fix to me. Why not just change the existing spells and abilities? Granted, SE's convoluted "solutions" to problems don't surprise me anymore (claim shield, etc.). Both Convert and Refresh have long been unique traits of the job, so I'm leery of expecting SE to give BRD either of those with full benefits.

I could see Convert only giving you half the value of your HP for instance ... or a 1 or 2 tick Refresh when subbed. Let's just say I'll be profoundly surprised if they implement even half of what they discussed at VanaFest.

Edit: I'll be even more surprised if anything they implement doesn't lead to disaster or recovery patches within 48hrs of initial release, too.

Edit2: SE has implied that Abyssea is going to be somehow nuts. Although I did KRT bones parties way way back when, and there will probably be burn spots for at least a few jobs in the future, I'm not counting on anything at this point. Making SC's vital to exp again would be interesting.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 6:15pm by Ezzelin


They showed a WHM doing Convert as one of the promo images when they annoced the level increase (of course, they can change their mind and pull it).
They will Probably make it work at half power, which actually makes it more practical.

Lets be honest. How much MP do you have as a BRD? Baring Tarus who get a generous boost to MP, most classes without native MP have very low, sucky base MP. Thus making the returns of your Thousands of HP to your 250~ MP kinda pathetic.

Sublimation is already a subable "convert" and I don't see everyone running around as /SCH.

Refresh is another story, though. And we won't know about that one till the update after the next one.

They mentioned RDM getting Refresh II, which will trump/overwrite Refresh I, and potentially RDM/SCH might be able to even -aga it, thus they have nothing to worry about becoming "less unique/wanted". And also makes casting Refresh I obsolete to a RDM.

If Abyssia is gonna be as "crazy" as they've been alluding to. Refresh I subabable might be useful to fill the gaps of strength. Also MP bars are going to get larger with more levels and more gear. Spells are going to cost more for mages to cast.
The option may level the playing field a little with the more intense new content, and open up options.
#17 Apr 21 2010 at 7:04 PM Rating: Good
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DreamerGuy wrote:
Lets be honest. How much MP do you have as a BRD? Baring Tarus who get a generous boost to MP, most classes without native MP have very low, sucky base MP. Thus making the returns of your Thousands of HP to your 250~ MP kinda pathetic.


600? I average between 550 and 600mp. Without food. So yes Convert is attractive to me. If I uncursed some more zenith I'd be getting pretty close to a respectable ratio.

Edit: If RDM gets RefreshII and obsoletes Refresh we can assume they won't be stackable. Captain obvious kind of remark, sure. I'll be very happy to stack it with ballads on myself if all else fails.

Which begs the question: what kind of area is Abyssea going to be that we need that much mp regen?

Sarcastic answer: The kind that SE haphazardly adjusts upward in level and says "there we fixed it! be happy!"

---

Edit 2: Personally I'll be more interested to see how bard's number game changes with the increase in levels, and how SE handles player magic skills relative to the increase in level cap. Naturally I'm thinking of Marches, first. Won't be too groundbreaking unless a whole lot of other mechanics change with the increase as well. The interim levels (i.e. 80 and 85) will be interesting from a mechanics standpoint.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 9:24pm by Ezzelin
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#18 Apr 21 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, my elvaan brd used to have 640 mp before food, with only 2 mp merits. Marron glace brought that to 725. Even elvaan brds can get over 900 mp with food, and they don't even need a perfect mp build to get it!
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#19 May 15 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Good
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With everyone thinking Convert will be dumbed down on a subjob...

This:

"[ Red Mage ]
We intend to ensure that red mages maintain the prominent position they currently enjoy, while closely monitoring their balance with other magic-wielding jobs.
For example, the level cap increase will render both “Convert” and “Refresh” usable by support jobs. If this gives red mages more free time in their parties, we will find ways for them to fill that time productively. If this threatens to deprive the job of its uniqueness, however, we will make sure to cover for this in other areas. "

Source: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/event/vanafes2010/index.html

To me, this doesn't sound like they are gimping it at all. If it causes a problem, they may. But I doubt they will gimp it when the level cap goes up.
#21 May 16 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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even still with a nerfed version it still becomes the must have mage sub for any class, a 500MP convert every 10 minutes an a 1-2MP/tick refresh is still better than the alternatives out there
Depends on the job. WHM would still be better served by /SCH than /RDM if refresh and vert are gimped like that.

As for BRD at higher levels, the sub jobs will likely be subjected to the law of "sh*t is situational." For exp, if we still keep with burn style, then I'd still stay BRD/NIN for pulling. No chance in hell would I have time to go casting refresh or haste on party members, while buffing and pulling. End game. Well...

I'll wait and see.

As for as the nostalgia of SC parties, are you guys serious? Did you really find holding TP to 150% because your SC parters sucks, fun? Did you actually find counting to 3 after your SC partner required much thought? Was using a SC chart to plan out a SC really that in depth of researching how to do damage for you? Old style parties were slow and boring, with few exceptions. KRT was fun, because it involved constant activity, as well as 3 way light SCs on the ghosties. Deco Weapons were fun, but again you were constantly moving, and the only SCs were when two RNGs released Slugwinder around the same time.

I think people glamorize the old days a bit too much, and forget about the bad parts.
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#22 May 16 2010 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, it WAS kind of fun. There's a nice feeling of success every time you get the timing just right for a SC+Burst. Burn style is mindless hammering of the macros, although there's still an element of timing I've found as I leveled up melee jobs. Melee still need to occasionally hold damage past 100 (you don't WS right at the start of the fight, even if you have 100, unless everyone else has 100 too, or else you might eat a faceful of pecking flurry - and you don't WS if it's got a sliver of health left because it's a waste.)
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#23 May 16 2010 at 1:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I found SC+MB parties fun as well, because it gets a lot of people involved and I loved finding the best combination of WSs to make the most appropriate SC for our mage to MB on.

I didn't mind holding TP...at some point in the party someone is going to be holding some amount of TP over 100 while waiting for their partner. In general, that would make YOUR WS stronger, and, if you were closing, it would make the SC stronger.

SC parties were fun, but also frustrating at times if you got a partner or mage that just didn't know what was going on. It was also frustrating that people didn't realize that SMN (when I played it) could SC or MB quite effectively (MB starting at level 10) OR, even after explaining that my MBs would be pretty sweet (with the Tier II spells at level 10) I wasn't allowed enough time to summon and then BP to get the MB off.

Those are my thoughts, but they have nothing to do with my original topic lol.
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#24 May 16 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Good
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There's a nice feeling of success every time you get the timing just right for a SC+Burst.
First off, the timing required to hit a SC is simply an ability to count to 3. Timing a MB is a slight bit tougher, but I assure you once you've done it a few times, it's quite routine.

Quote:
Burn style is mindless hammering of the macros, although there's still an element of timing I've found as I leveled up melee jobs.
Might I ask you what melee jobs you have leveled, and when? I ask because as you've alluded to, there is a degree of timing required in TP burn. In fact, it requires MORE timing than the traditional parties for more people. Let's examine what actually requires timing in the two situations.

Melee, Non-Burn:
Engage
Use job abilities (zerk, focus, jump, etc)
Cast shadows if applicable.
Announce TP (We don't all have windower TP)
WS.

Melee, Burn:
Engage
Use job abilities
Cast shadows, or Seigan/TE as applicable. Much more prevalent in a burn.
WS.

For melee, the difference is huge. You don't have to announce TP, but you're generally recasting shadows or using Seigan/TE much more in a burn than a non-burn. For healers and buffers in a burn, the main difference is speed. You're going at a MUCH higher pace, so resting is greatly reduced. They can no more mindlessly spam macros here than before.

The ONLY job that required more timing in traditional parties than in melee burns, are the people no longer invited to melee burns. BLMs. So please, knock it off with the mantra of "TP burn is mindless spamming." Unless of course you're willing to admit traditional parties were the same damn mindless spamming.

As for the fun factor, I don't deny that SCs were fun. Hell, I MB songs on end game mobs whenever I can. But honestly, having to put up with pick-up melees who don't eat food and TP in crap gear, therefore they can't gain TP at a decent rate? No thanks.
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#25 May 18 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry, but every time the /WHM vs /NIN sub topic comes up, it spirals into a massive debate about which is better. That wasn't the purpose of this tread.


The topic is about Bard and subjobs after level increase. What if /whm or /nin is still better? Either sub will be situational, even Rdm if we get all the benefits. Characters are customizable so play what you want. If you want to maximize your efficiency, test each out and see which works best for you.
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#26 May 18 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Good
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Mattelot wrote:
Quote:
Sorry, but every time the /WHM vs /NIN sub topic comes up, it spirals into a massive debate about which is better. That wasn't the purpose of this tread.


The topic is about Bard and subjobs after level increase. What if /whm or /nin is still better? Either sub will be situational, even Rdm if we get all the benefits. Characters are customizable so play what you want. If you want to maximize your efficiency, test each out and see which works best for you.


Finish reading what I wrote. Speculation is good. Saying /NIN or /WHM or /??? 'is absolutely better and you don't need any other sub' for:

75 and below - is retarded, because the topic is about future level caps, not about what you did at level 20.
beyond 75 - is also retarded because the sh*t isn't out yet. No one can make such claims.

The derail that was in progress was specifically targeted at:

Quote:
You can pull most things just fine with /WHM, and if so, there's little reason to use /NIN.


Which has NO significance to the topic at hand. It only serves as a derail and has been discussed to death. If you don't get that, gtfo.

Edited, May 18th 2010 3:23pm by Asmoranomar
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#27 May 24 2010 at 10:23 PM Rating: Good
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For SC+MB to work they will have to make mobs much tougher and give them massive bonus xp (like triple), as well as make them very weak to magic damage. Fights in merit parties are so short now that even if Colibri took 2x magic damage and didn't reflect, it still wouldn't be worth inviting a BLM and setting up skillchains.
#28 May 25 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Party setups:
BRD/WHM for hasting / healing / dia (potentially could be COR/WHM, but BRD has better MP gear and refresh body)
BRD/NIN or COR/NIN for pulling (potentially could be /mage or /DNC if shadows aren't needed)
DNC/NIN or SAM/DNC or DRG/mage for main healer

DD
DD
DD

Bard will potentially be able to give people ~37% haste alone (even if no new march, victory will be 12%+ after new skill), on top of haste samba giving another 5 (sub) or 10 (merited). While the kill speed may potentially change, the only real reason you don't see the above more often is because of haste (spell), which will become subbable.

The response to keeping mages in the party is that melee burning will phase out and be replaced with more solid parties, but not only will the mobs need to justify giving equal XP/time, they would also need to justify XP/time/effort.

If I need to pay closer attention because mobs will potentially kill me (and face decent xp loss), I need a reason NOT to just level sync to 75 and do greater colibri for comparable XP with significantly less effort (or past birds where I can really not worry about anything).

SE has given us multiple camps that we can sync to and get 20~30k/hr, these new camps will need to either be just as mindless or 1.5~2 times that XP. Unless the mobs are taking ridiculously more damage from skill chains and magic bursts, I really don't see bringing back mages. If the new mobs are significantly more dangerous without a large XP bonus, there wouldn't be any reason to fight them and constantly risk death.

We're basically going to get 3 DD, 2 support, 1 DD/healer that kills very fast or we're going to get 3 DD, 2 support, 1 DD/healer that kills slightly slower for better XP. I find it doubtful we will see much else given the direction this game has taken.

In the off chance they introduce Haste II, it would need to out do haste samba to change the above setup (or you just have WHM and RDM sub dancer). Because the magic haste cap is ~43.75% and we have an increased singing/wind skill our marches should be 22~24%, leaving a ~5% magic haste room for improvement. Realistically, I could see SE releasing Haste II at 20% so you could couple it with haste samba and match a dancer's merited haste samba...though you wouldn't have as much damage. If SE realizes that 20% HII wouldn't be that impressive and increased it beyond that, potentially another ~10% you could swap out advancing march for minuet V and WHM|RDM could hold their speed king reign.
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80 Pup Brd, 75 War Rdm Drg Sam Mnk Pld Bst Thf Whm Nin Smn Blm Rng, 72 Drk, 63 Cor, 50 Blu, 40 Dnc Sch
#29 May 28 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Decent
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1,274 posts
I think /SCH will be situationally useful.

White arts will extend your mp pool some, with the cap increases you'll get erase back. (although /whm will offer Haste, Cure IV).

Curious if Accession will stack with Etudes or Prelude. (would be nice occasionally).

Of course the biggest advantage is having a dark based sleep and dispel that have a prayer in hell at sticking. Obviously, useless at many things, but occasionally helpful.
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Brimstone
#30 May 28 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrimstoneFox wrote:
Of course the biggest advantage is having a dark based sleep and dispel that have a prayer in hell at sticking. Obviously, useless at many things, but occasionally helpful.

..... I managed to avoid feeling the need to level sch to 50 because I hadn't considered this. Thanks for pointing it out. Oh well, guess it gives me something to do til June update, seeing as all of my other required and situational subs are now 50+.

/shakefist
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