BRD and Subjobs after level cap increasesFollow

I've been browsing through each job forum looking at threads concerning subjobs with the new level caps coming up and didn't find one on the first page of the BRD forum, and personally, I'm pretty darn curious what BRD will be looking at for subjobs when the cap hits 99.

I see mostly /whm pretty much all the way until 74, when pulling becomes less hazardous and more beneficial for parties thanks to Utsu: Ni /nin.

But, when I used to play BRD, I liked RDM because of Fast Cast.

Now?

RDM would still give Fast Cast I and II, but you'd also get Convert (we'll see how this is when subbed), Refresh and Haste. Could 99 BRD/RDM become the ULTIMATE party buffer? (obviously BRD is already a damn good buffer, but c'mon...this would be just pure awesomness)

In certain very specific situations, /COR may be viable. I.e. you're already rolling with a RDM in the BLM party, or all your mages are /SCH. Could work in a melee party as well. However, splitting haste duties with your healer and ensuring that all 4 melees are getting 35%~ total haste at all times would almost definitely outweigh the benefits of a gimpy DA or attack roll.

Edited, Apr 19th 2010 9:38am by AmeiliaLakshmi

/WHM is good til about 24 then /NIN all the rest of the way. It'll still be an awesome subjob 76+.

STOP!


....this is why we don't discuss subjobs on the BRD forums.

I'm.. confused XD sorry.. but my brds still lvl 1 (planning to lvl it!) and i haven't really read anything on brd... but what Asmoranomar said kind of confused me <.<;

Have they ever before blocked a Spell from being usable while subbed? I doubt they'll start doing that now.

And, if things continue the way they have been concerning end game parties and such, what are the odds that a support healer will even be necessary? BRD got pulled into the /nin crowd because it was discovered that BRD did a decent job of pulling even WHILE keeping the party buffed.

So, unless the types of XPing we'll be encountering after 75 will be drastically different and back to your "pre-Utsu-&-WS-Burn" parties where having a job that would pretty much only be healing and possibly having a backup healer and hell, maybe even making SCs again, I doubt BRD's role will change that much.

But I'm crossing every body part I can that they bring back some kind of need to make SCs again. I'm not a fan of WS spam, mostly because I LOVED the party coordination involved in making SCs and then MBing off've them. Assuming you didn't have an idiot in your party that didn't understand SCing or MBing, those were some of the most fun times I had, trying to figure out what the best SC we could make was, and factoring in what our Caster DPS's highest spell was, etc. Good times!

Sorry, but every time the /WHM vs /NIN sub topic comes up, it spirals into a massive debate about which is better. That wasn't the purpose of this tread. If your looking for that I can point your way to a few hundred similar derailed topics. Furthermore, while speculation is all well and good, debates about which sub is better (note: not will be/might be) is just downright silly. This applies to levels below the current level cap (this thread is about the future levels, not what you did at level 20), as well as above the current level cap (because it and the surrounding content isn't here yet, where are you getting this nonsense that any sub is better?)

I didn't really intend for it to be all inclusive like I said it, I just didn't want this thread to be a total derail. Thinking about subs (and what we might get) is a good thing, reminding people that you can level your subjobs now is even better, but we don't need another /WHM vs /NIN discussion here.



If I remember correctly, I believe SE said during vanafest that RDM was too powerful and /RDM would give both convert and refresh, and they were looking for other ways for RDM to be more unique. They said this about other jobs, like lowering the level of the SAM ability Sekkanoki so it can be usable as a subjob. However, they also did mention that some abilities would not be available as a sub, such as WHM's Afflatus and NIN's Yonin/Innin. Things can always change, but I think it is safe to assume for now that some sort of refresh and convert ability will be available.

Edited, Apr 20th 2010 10:25am by Asmoranomar

On one side, the existing areas are going to be made super easy. So SE might choose to restrict subjobs in some way so they aren't overpowered.

But then again, the fact that Abyssea is going to be insane could be reason enough to for SE to let loose and play the 'anything goes' card.

Honestly it could go either way. Which is why I mentioned that we should speculate on what we know and not be so quick to whip out 'x combination is better'. Right now we know we are going to get some form of refresh or convert. SE could restrict them, or add new spells and equipment for RDM only that would enhance these existing abilities.

600? I average between 550 and 600mp. Without food. So yes Convert is attractive to me. If I uncursed some more zenith I'd be getting pretty close to a respectable ratio.

Edit: If RDM gets RefreshII and obsoletes Refresh we can assume they won't be stackable. Captain obvious kind of remark, sure. I'll be very happy to stack it with ballads on myself if all else fails.

Which begs the question: what kind of area is Abyssea going to be that we need that much mp regen?

Sarcastic answer: The kind that SE haphazardly adjusts upward in level and says "there we fixed it! be happy!"

---

Edit 2: Personally I'll be more interested to see how bard's number game changes with the increase in levels, and how SE handles player magic skills relative to the increase in level cap. Naturally I'm thinking of Marches, first. Won't be too groundbreaking unless a whole lot of other mechanics change with the increase as well. The interim levels (i.e. 80 and 85) will be interesting from a mechanics standpoint.

Edited, Apr 21st 2010 9:24pm by Ezzelin

With everyone thinking Convert will be dumbed down on a subjob...

This:

"[ Red Mage ]
We intend to ensure that red mages maintain the prominent position they currently enjoy, while closely monitoring their balance with other magic-wielding jobs.
For example, the level cap increase will render both “Convert” and “Refresh” usable by support jobs. If this gives red mages more free time in their parties, we will find ways for them to fill that time productively. If this threatens to deprive the job of its uniqueness, however, we will make sure to cover for this in other areas. "

Source: http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/event/vanafes2010/index.html

To me, this doesn't sound like they are gimping it at all. If it causes a problem, they may. But I doubt they will gimp it when the level cap goes up.

Actually, it WAS kind of fun. There's a nice feeling of success every time you get the timing just right for a SC+Burst. Burn style is mindless hammering of the macros, although there's still an element of timing I've found as I leveled up melee jobs. Melee still need to occasionally hold damage past 100 (you don't WS right at the start of the fight, even if you have 100, unless everyone else has 100 too, or else you might eat a faceful of pecking flurry - and you don't WS if it's got a sliver of health left because it's a waste.)

First off, the timing required to hit a SC is simply an ability to count to 3. Timing a MB is a slight bit tougher, but I assure you once you've done it a few times, it's quite routine.

Might I ask you what melee jobs you have leveled, and when? I ask because as you've alluded to, there is a degree of timing required in TP burn. In fact, it requires MORE timing than the traditional parties for more people. Let's examine what actually requires timing in the two situations.

Melee, Non-Burn:
Engage
Use job abilities (zerk, focus, jump, etc)
Cast shadows if applicable.
Announce TP (We don't all have windower TP)
WS.

Melee, Burn:
Engage
Use job abilities
Cast shadows, or Seigan/TE as applicable. Much more prevalent in a burn.
WS.

For melee, the difference is huge. You don't have to announce TP, but you're generally recasting shadows or using Seigan/TE much more in a burn than a non-burn. For healers and buffers in a burn, the main difference is speed. You're going at a MUCH higher pace, so resting is greatly reduced. They can no more mindlessly spam macros here than before.

The ONLY job that required more timing in traditional parties than in melee burns, are the people no longer invited to melee burns. BLMs. So please, knock it off with the mantra of "TP burn is mindless spamming." Unless of course you're willing to admit traditional parties were the same damn mindless spamming.

As for the fun factor, I don't deny that SCs were fun. Hell, I MB songs on end game mobs whenever I can. But honestly, having to put up with pick-up melees who don't eat food and TP in crap gear, therefore they can't gain TP at a decent rate? No thanks.

Finish reading what I wrote. Speculation is good. Saying /NIN or /WHM or /??? 'is absolutely better and you don't need any other sub' for:

75 and below - is retarded, because the topic is about future level caps, not about what you did at level 20.
beyond 75 - is also retarded because the sh*t isn't out yet. No one can make such claims.

The derail that was in progress was specifically targeted at:



Which has NO significance to the topic at hand. It only serves as a derail and has been discussed to death. If you don't get that, gtfo.

Edited, May 18th 2010 3:23pm by Asmoranomar

Party setups:
BRD/WHM for hasting / healing / dia (potentially could be COR/WHM, but BRD has better MP gear and refresh body)
BRD/NIN or COR/NIN for pulling (potentially could be /mage or /DNC if shadows aren't needed)
DNC/NIN or SAM/DNC or DRG/mage for main healer

DD
DD
DD

Bard will potentially be able to give people ~37% haste alone (even if no new march, victory will be 12%+ after new skill), on top of haste samba giving another 5 (sub) or 10 (merited). While the kill speed may potentially change, the only real reason you don't see the above more often is because of haste (spell), which will become subbable.

The response to keeping mages in the party is that melee burning will phase out and be replaced with more solid parties, but not only will the mobs need to justify giving equal XP/time, they would also need to justify XP/time/effort.

If I need to pay closer attention because mobs will potentially kill me (and face decent xp loss), I need a reason NOT to just level sync to 75 and do greater colibri for comparable XP with significantly less effort (or past birds where I can really not worry about anything).

SE has given us multiple camps that we can sync to and get 20~30k/hr, these new camps will need to either be just as mindless or 1.5~2 times that XP. Unless the mobs are taking ridiculously more damage from skill chains and magic bursts, I really don't see bringing back mages. If the new mobs are significantly more dangerous without a large XP bonus, there wouldn't be any reason to fight them and constantly risk death.

We're basically going to get 3 DD, 2 support, 1 DD/healer that kills very fast or we're going to get 3 DD, 2 support, 1 DD/healer that kills slightly slower for better XP. I find it doubtful we will see much else given the direction this game has taken.

In the off chance they introduce Haste II, it would need to out do haste samba to change the above setup (or you just have WHM and RDM sub dancer). Because the magic haste cap is ~43.75% and we have an increased singing/wind skill our marches should be 22~24%, leaving a ~5% magic haste room for improvement. Realistically, I could see SE releasing Haste II at 20% so you could couple it with haste samba and match a dancer's merited haste samba...though you wouldn't have as much damage. If SE realizes that 20% HII wouldn't be that impressive and increased it beyond that, potentially another ~10% you could swap out advancing march for minuet V and WHM|RDM could hold their speed king reign.

..... I managed to avoid feeling the need to level sch to 50 because I hadn't considered this. Thanks for pointing it out. Oh well, guess it gives me something to do til June update, seeing as all of my other required and situational subs are now 50+.

/shakefist