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#1 Apr 03 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
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So I took a break for a few months from about Oct '09 to Jan '10. Since I've been back I haven't merited at all just been doing LS events and doing some subs for the upcoming cap increase.

So today I went out with a few LS members to merit on birds. We picked up a couple of random pick up guys. It was Brd, Rdm, Sam, War, War and Mnk (me). The Brd we has sang Att/Acc songs the entire time. I was the only one using food (mithkabobs) and wanted Att/Haste songs instead (I have the gear to support it).

After the pt was done and talking with the Brd (he's a friend of mine), he was saying that Att/Acc is the best way to go at birds. Now he's not an idiot and a really good player so this seemed really odd to me. Another really talented and well geared LS friend, who plays Sam, also says that Att/Acc are the best way to go as well.

Now I have Brd, Mnk, Nin, and War all leveled so I have a VERY good idea of what songs would be the most ideal. Before I took my break in Oct, Att/Haste was always the way to go. So my question is: Did something change to make Att/Acc more ideal at the bird camp?

Even in a pick up group, what songs do you guys usually sing or do people ask you to sing for?
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#2 Apr 03 2010 at 11:10 PM Rating: Good
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No. Anyone who says to use anything other than march x2 is an idiot. For good dd/sam, march x2 is aprox a 57.1% damage increase (assuming 20% gear, 15% haste, and 10% hasso). Without hasso it's still a 44.4% increase. Nothing else can even come close to that.
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#3 Apr 03 2010 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
No. Anyone who says to use anything other than march x2 is an idiot. For good dd/sam, march x2 is aprox a 57.1% damage increase (assuming 20% gear, 15% haste, and 10% hasso). Without hasso it's still a 44.4% increase. Nothing else can even come close to that.


Error in your assessment of a pick-up party.
#4 Apr 03 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Overburn wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
No. Anyone who says to use anything other than march x2 is an idiot. For good dd/sam, march x2 is aprox a 57.1% damage increase (assuming 20% gear, 15% haste, and 10% hasso). Without hasso it's still a 44.4% increase. Nothing else can even come close to that.
Error in your assessment of a pick-up party.
Even with just turban, swift, and dusk (14 from gear) it's still 48.7% with hasso, and 39.2% without hasso. ****, even with just the haste spell march x2 is 30.8% increase, which easily beats march/min.
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#5 Apr 04 2010 at 3:50 AM Rating: Good
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For those of you talking about damage, this is less of a question of DPS and more of a situational balancing act for BRDs. Sometimes we WANT you to slow your kills down (or speed them up), so its possible to maintain chains. Also there's a difference between having haste on a mob your able to continuously hit and having haste to hit continuous mobs. There are pros and cons for having Marches on all the time. BTW, In case you were wondering - I prefer Marches in my Merit Parties.

The only situation in which Marches are not ideal is when you have slow pulls, long downtime between monsters, and/or during situations where the monster dies before you get an extra attack round. Additionally, long-term damage potential is reduced any time where the benefit of swinging faster (or swinging again) is lost.

Unless you were either...
A) In a slow party where birds were not ready or...
B) In a party where Melee frequently failed to swap-target or..
C) In a party with a RNG or COR or..
D) In a really great party where birds died extremely quickly (and thus, you couldn't get any extra hits in)*, then...

...Marches will always be better.

Keep in mind that some of the same reasons would overlap for ATK/ACC songs (ie: not having a bird ready would hurt in all situations), while others have large bonuses over Marches (Rangers, etc).

Also, while it isn't mentioned much, Marches do wonders for recast timers on Utsusemi and Elegy (if you use Elegy). Sometimes kills go too fast, even in situations where the melee *could* benefit from ATK/ACC songs, it's better for the group in the long-term to keep Marches in order to maintain a good pull order.

It's important to mention that there's also no black/white answer either. Each party will be different. Each BRD is different (Minuet Merits? Madrigal Merits? March Tiers? Instruments?). Each situation is different (Like those 4xRelic parties where you just constantly pull and never buff -.-). The right answer is to be multipurpose and not be set in what "should be" used rather than what "is needed".


Edit: *You know what I'm talking about...those moments where everyone seems to have TP and the bird gets mangled from every direction simultaneously.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 6:23am by Asmoranomar
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#6 Apr 04 2010 at 4:58 AM Rating: Default
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ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Overburn wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
No. Anyone who says to use anything other than march x2 is an idiot. For good dd/sam, march x2 is aprox a 57.1% damage increase (assuming 20% gear, 15% haste, and 10% hasso). Without hasso it's still a 44.4% increase. Nothing else can even come close to that.
Error in your assessment of a pick-up party.
Even with just turban, swift, and dusk (14 from gear) it's still 48.7% with hasso, and 39.2% without hasso. ****, even with just the haste spell march x2 is 30.8% increase, which easily beats march/min.


Now give me the numbers with 0 merits, 0-1 dusk, a warwolf belt and full STR+ gear. Variable between AF body, NQ haub, a Domaru or ******/halfright ACP body.
#7 Apr 04 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Now give me the numbers with 0 merits, 0-1 dusk, a warwolf belt and full STR+ gear. Variable between AF body, NQ haub, a Domaru or sh*tty/halfright ACP body.


My marches would add 0% to their damage output, because I would leave that party.
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#8 Apr 04 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Asmoranomar wrote:
D) In a really great party where birds died extremely quickly (and thus, you couldn't get any extra hits in)*, then...


marches still better. you never fail to reap the benefits of haste; a merit mob can't "die too quickly" for haste to matter. it's still more hits, more melee DoT, more TP, more WS, quicker kills. if mobs are dying immediately from WSs, that means that melees have adequate ACC/ATT to begin with, and they're getting the TP for those immediate kill WS barrages from haste.

(b) is wrong too; march/march is best *for any given fight* not just in the course of a party. you don't lose haste's benefit by not autotargeting.

(a) i don't understand, but chances are march/march is best for the reasons rog mentioned.

(c) is right if you cut out the COR, the RNG doesn't have k.club, and all the DDs are RNGs. if you want to be nice and let shoot-for-TP RNGs into your TP burn parties, it's pianissimo time for you.
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#9 Apr 04 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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RAWR 2K DRAKESBANES ONRY I DON'T NEED ACC FOR WEAPON SKILLS IF YOU GIMME MADRIGAL
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#10 Apr 04 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Overburn wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
Overburn wrote:
ThePsychoticOne the Prohpet wrote:
No. Anyone who says to use anything other than march x2 is an idiot. For good dd/sam, march x2 is aprox a 57.1% damage increase (assuming 20% gear, 15% haste, and 10% hasso). Without hasso it's still a 44.4% increase. Nothing else can even come close to that.
Error in your assessment of a pick-up party.
Even with just turban, swift, and dusk (14 from gear) it's still 48.7% with hasso, and 39.2% without hasso. ****, even with just the haste spell march x2 is 30.8% increase, which easily beats march/min.
Now give me the numbers with 0 merits, 0-1 dusk, a warwolf belt and full STR+ gear. Variable between AF body, NQ haub, a Domaru or sh*tty/halfright ACP body.
Uh, i already did?
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#11 Apr 04 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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cyanjoeblake wrote:
Even in a pick up group, what songs do you guys usually sing or do people ask you to sing for?


From a bard perspective?
1. Never take pickup parties.
2. Use Marchx2 until someone complains. Then continue using Marchx2.

Pickup parties tend to have less than ideal group members, which may also mean using less than ideal songs. If I've got Einherjar in a few hours and I want the EXP buffer bad enough, there's no end to the strange groups I'll put up with.

Experience is knowing what songs will give your party the most return, and when switching from the 'standard' is desirable/appropriate. Deal with idiots on a case-by-case basis (I'm looking at you wifftastic DRK).
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#12 Apr 04 2010 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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milich wrote:
Asmoranomar wrote:
D) In a really great party where birds died extremely quickly (and thus, you couldn't get any extra hits in)*, then...


marches still better. you never fail to reap the benefits of haste; a merit mob can't "die too quickly" for haste to matter. it's still more hits, more melee DoT, more TP, more WS, quicker kills. if mobs are dying immediately from WSs, that means that melees have adequate ACC/ATT to begin with, and they're getting the TP for those immediate kill WS barrages from haste.

(b) is wrong too; march/march is best *for any given fight* not just in the course of a party. you don't lose haste's benefit by not autotargeting.

(a) i don't understand, but chances are march/march is best for the reasons rog mentioned.

(c) is right if you cut out the COR, the RNG doesn't have k.club, and all the DDs are RNGs. if you want to be nice and let shoot-for-TP RNGs into your TP burn parties, it's pianissimo time for you.


To clarify, in situations where your killing to fast, you have the potential to have downtime between kills. You aren't getting any benefit in situations where there isn't a mob to swing at (this applies to Marches, Minuets and Madrigals). The point was not ATK/ACC > Marches in this case, it was No Buffs > Marches as it applies to the kill speed and respawn times of the mobs around you.

Remember, I wasn't simply talking about DPS - I was talking about the needs of the party as a whole, keeping exp chains going is part of that. Especially for birds, in the fact that it *IS* possible to run out of birds and lose chain (and thus, lower exp/hr).

Of course, the remedy for this is to not fight birds, remove a DD to kill slower, or stop casting Marches to maintain chains.

Edit: Also, your making it sound like I'm in support of not casting marches. I'm only simply offering a reason as to why the paticular BRD in the OP may have thought as such. The reasons I've given have been discussed before. They are, shall we say - 'trivial' reasons but they are situations that CAN occur and DO affect the benefits of haste.

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 8:19pm by Asmoranomar
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#13 Apr 04 2010 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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if you're running out of birds and not killing wivre, kill wivre. you won't lose chain as long as you kill things as fast as they pop. not buffing doesn't help at all. that whole story about dropping march "to help the party" is wrong.

yes, (a) happens (if (a) is supposed to mean a party with weak melee). and again, march/march is the appropriate thing to do in (a). (b) happens too. march/march is the right move there (want to explain why it isn't?). (c) only matters of it's all RNG (CORs melee for TP, so you messed up mentioning them as well). 1 RNG; still march/march. and, again, (d), march/march is better than no songs at all. you'll kill faster when the mob finally pops, and you will not run out of mobs if you kill wivre (and you won't run out of birds if you're incapable of killing wivre).

Edited, Apr 4th 2010 8:48pm by milich
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