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Self-songs overwriting? Not anymore!Follow

#1 Mar 03 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Link to analysis by Elmer

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Elmer the pointy wrote:
Bard is a powerful Job that raises the base strength of the entire party, but there are still some issues present. First and foremost is the inability of a Bard to cast songs on themselves. Either you get what you cast on your party members, or you quickly overwrite anything song you had active on yourself before. A way to make songs on oneself immune to being overwritten is being discussed. Also, now that Bard pulling is common practice, they are looking for a way to increase a Bard's survivability during a long or tricky pull. To help manage instruments, the Magian system may allow for a single instrument to support bonuses on multiple song types.


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#2 Mar 04 2010 at 6:25 AM Rating: Decent
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Possible a new ja or 2 and for the magian thing hopefully not only for relics so that it possible to have 1~2 more +2 (hopeful for +3) song types on a single instrument for less inventory space.
#3 Mar 04 2010 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
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The multiple-songs-on-same-instrument is nice, but do we really need an ability that allows you to keep a particular song on yourself? The only time this would be beneficial is if you are low on MP.

What would be much MORE helpful is if they made the ability work on others alongside pianissimo - it sucks hard to worry about Ballad on a PLD, BLU, or DRK being instantly overwritten (because there is no instrument that gives a longer duration on Ballad, so it susceptible to being overwritten) when you are spamming all other front line peeps with march or minuet.
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#4 Mar 04 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Who the **** cares about what songs the BRD has on himself? He's usually not even attacking, and if he's /NIN his MP is irrelevant too.

This is only a problem for COR, not BRD.

Quote:
Also, now that Bard pulling is common practice, they are looking for a way to increase a Bard's survivability during a long or tricky pull.


I thought they already had these.

BRD doesn't even catch magic aggro, so it's basically as good as pulling with ranged attacks (with slightly less range).

BRD is a joke to pull with, sheesh. I really don't see how anyone could think they need more help in this department. I already take hits from mobs far better than most melees do, if I'm even getting hit in the first place...

If you ask me, the only thing that should really be changed is fixing Requiem to make it easier to pull with at lower levels when Elegy isn't available yet (give this 21' range instead of 17'; why is it shorter range to begin with? -- and eliminate the stupid animation delay you get when casting it that freezes you in place for another second or so)

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 9:32am by Fynlar
#5 Mar 04 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Default
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It may be a fool's hope......


But relics are already going to be outclassed. Mnk and Pup will get an added 12 damage per fist on their weapon rating from skill alone. Either other DD will get similar boosts to base damage or everyone will be Pup or Mnk. IF relics are going the way of the dodo I could see one of these 'different song types' being ballad. That would also close the gap if SE decides to give RDM refresh II since rdm sub will give refresh now (unless they gimp it).


Relic would still be best due to the +skill, but the ballad bonus may be swallowed up. Prolly not....but fun to play 'what if'.
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#6 Mar 04 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Who the **** cares about what songs the BRD has on himself? He's usually not even attacking, and if he's /NIN his MP is irrelevant too.


Perhaps Square feels like BRD should be DDing when /nin or performing magely duties more efficiently when /mage.

I wouldn't mind at all being able to keep songs on myself while doing my rotations.

****, most merit burns dont even need the lazy brd any more to be healing. BRD gets some hella good DD gear. Put the songs on you that you need, keep them and DD while going through your rotations. Kill faster.

Seems good to me.

Edited, Mar 4th 2010 12:59pm by ThiefKiller
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#7 Mar 04 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
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****, most merit burns dont even need the lazy brd any more to be healing.


Uhh, what? BRD is anything but lazy in merits, unless you're being lazy by refusing to pull...

If you're referring to having more than one BRD in the party, I have never had an EXP party with two BRDs, ever. Even if I was one of the BRDs, the only reason I would be asked to come BRD would be if the party didn't have one.

The closest thing I've had to it was cycled BRDs in some HNM fight (I don't even remember which mob it was) but that's an entirely different circumstance altogether. It's also fairly doubtful people would want their BRDs meleeing HNMs, or that the BRDs themselves would want to melee them.

Yeah, BRD *can* do damage. So can RDM. In both cases, it's not what you're invited for so nobody cares, and both jobs are quite capable of busying themselves via other means.

Fact remains, this is far more of an issue for COR (who comes far closer to being recognized as a DD compared to BRD and RDM, despite the fact I still think the majority of people only invite COR for their buffs) and I really don't know why it came up for BRD. BRD even has Pianissimo which can often prevent the self-application of Ballad already (assuming your party has only one mage, which is usually the case); COR doesn't even have any such equivalent.
#8ThiefKiller, Posted: Mar 05 2010 at 9:03 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There is really no valid comparison with a BRD's ability to do damage and a RDM's. BRD's selection of DD gear is infinately superior to RDM's. If something like this was implemented so that a BRD could have their own specific songs on themselves full-time, custom tailored to their on gear sets, yes, BRD could make quite a powerful meripo DD contribution.
#9 Mar 05 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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BRD melee equipment is not infinitley supperior, they just have access to kitty pants where RDM doesn't. BRD has lower skill ratings (240 dagger 220 sword), no composure and no enspells. But BRD's shine at making everyone else better, and with their own melee buffs they can kick major a$$.

Two support jobs is the best setup for any XP party currently. Three melee, two support, one dedicated healer isn't that hard to build. Finding two BRD's might be a stretch, depending on how many friends you know that can come BRD. But there also is COR / RDM / SMN / DNC that all can perform support duties while contributing damage.

The "lazy BRD" is in reference to the BRD/WHM doing two songs sets and waiting to cast something, this is an amazingly boring job to be doing. I've always desired to see these guys go /NIN with solid melee gear and contribute some damage. Buff with Min / Mad (or whatever the DD's require) while the puller BRD does March x 2, Pianessimo ballad to the back line Mage. Might not be nearly as effective as a dedicated melee, but its better then sitting on your a$$ waiting to cast cure III or DS Curaga II.
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#10 Mar 05 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Default
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saevellakshmi wrote:
BRD melee equipment is not infinitley supperior


Yes it is.

They dont JUST have access to kitty pants (although this is pretty significant). They can also wear Hecatomb Gear and Relic body is also a pretty good EV piece too.

Quote:
and with their own melee buffs they can kick major a$$.


This is really the point. Their lower skill or lack of enspells/composure/whatever don't really matter in this comparison. RDM's can't sing themselves BRD's specific soings to max their own gear sets.


You have your puller singing the double marches, you have double minuet on your DD, sing yourself a madrigal = hybrid brd/dd pwnage. This is really already possible with pianissimo. But having a new adjustment like this would make it easier/smoother.

But if you ask me what they really need to do is increase song duration.

Edited, Mar 5th 2010 11:25am by ThiefKiller
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#11 Mar 05 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
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You might have Heca, but you don't have the WS to actually take advantage of it. Evis has no STR mod only a DEX one, which makes the two equal on a point per point basis. ACP / MKD / ASA pretty much leveled the playing field with respect to gear choices. We have Ogre +1 boots and Alky's which are killer on Death Blossom but wouldn't work very well for evis. Other then that both jobs use the same set of equipment, SH / AJ / ACP + dusk + swift / w.turban + suppa ect..

Enspell is a significant source of damage, approx 15% total depending on target monster. Composure is +15 accuracy combined with 250 base skill, plus whatever buffs the BRD is getting the RDM is too. Tag with that the BRD has to sing four annoyingly long songs (I wish SE would reduce the casting times... ohh well). RDM is self buffing occasionally and refreshing the back line healer.

At the end of the day RDM has better melee prowess then a BRD can get, but BRD has much better buffing then a RDM could ever dream of. The two actually work quite well together.
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when you're hefting something that deadly, you don't miss - mobs get the **** out of the way instead...
#12ThiefKiller, Posted: Mar 05 2010 at 9:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm really sorry. I stopped reading right here.
#13 Mar 06 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
BRD's selection of DD gear is infinately superior to RDM's.


I laughed. Do you really think ability to DD is only about the gear? Not that Hecatomb is really all that great for BRD in the first place, but I digress...

You may want to look into why MNK is a popular job for Salvage.
#14 Mar 06 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
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BRD's selection of DD gear is infinately superior to RDM's.


I laughed.


Congrats. I'm still laughing :)
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#15 Mar 06 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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ThiefKiller wrote:

Perhaps Square feels like BRD should be DDing when /nin


Yeah, that sounds like one of SE's ideas. XD
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#16 Mar 07 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Perhaps Square feels like BRD should be DDing when /nin


I am not sure this is the case. He spoke of "long and tricky pulls" when he spoke of abilities to increase BRD puller survivability. While its been a long time since I was the puller in a merit party, I can still remember having such painful pulling situations. With competition in a camp longer and more difficult pulls can be common. (Yes, I know competition is not exactly common these days with server pops, but it does happen.) Some sort of ability to enhance Bard survivability as /nin would be nice here. Yes we have gear that we should be choosing to use, but it is possible to give us more.

But, really... If SE really feels like BRD should be contributing to the DD being done as /nin they would change our Weapon Rating at the very least. There is a lot of other things they could do to enhance our DD abilities, but raising our skill to B+ would be the biggest step in that direction. A BRD only skill that was actually useful would also be a good step. Even if it wasn't a DD ability per se but a Damage + Significant Debuff ability it would help usefulness as /nin.

All that being said, I have never been the bard puller in a group that wasn't pulling the second mob as soon as I finished putting my song cycle up for the first. Any DD gains would be for situational uses such as 2xBRD, low-manning and single party endgame events.

--
To the OP... the ability to protect your own songs is an interesting idea. Personally, I would rather see Pianissimo be able to protect the song you use it with. Either a new ability or a "Seal" type ability that protects those songs. If not an ability to do this, than an ability that would lengthen the song by 15-30 seconds so that it will not be the song pushed off by other buffing.
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#17 Mar 08 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps it is just because I have dagger merits and DD gear from my THF to fit this purpose nicely. But I wonder how many BRD's actually put one of these situational DD builds together?

Re: SE not wanting BRD to DD....maybe, maybe not. But it is clear BRD has the opportunity and the gear to do it fairly well in certain cases.

But really, in a BRDx2 merit party why wouldn't you? You have another BRD pulling. The RDM doesn't NEED additional Healing support...what else do you do? DD and assist with additional pulls as pace dictates is a nice option and it will increase your xp/hour. Is that not the point?
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#18 Mar 08 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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There's really never been a time where I've had time to DD outside of like coffer key parties and really lowbie stuff like that. If the rdm has an abundance of mp in a two bard party, its only a matter of time before full time hassos, souleaters, etc start getting thrown out which help way more than a bards DD. I've had /nins refuse to cast :ni because it took away from their attack rate.


I hope its something to do with:

A) The duration of songs. I can't take a sip of lemonade in a merit party/nyzul/limbus/etc unless I want songs to drop. I refuse to half *** it, but its such a busy job most of the time. Stuff like salvage bosses is actually a vacation since everyone stands still and there is no pulling.


B) The overwriting of ballad. So frustrating that the bard never gets the benefit of one ballad. SV--->troub---->DD songs----->ballads and you only get one ballad. If you reverse the order you get zero. If you wait you lose troub. Same thing in nyzul type situations. Unless you have relic horn your ballads are getting overridden unless you tailor your strat around not letting that happen. But if you do that other, and larger, parts of your game will suffer.
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#19 Mar 15 2010 at 9:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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You might have Heca, but you don't have the WS to actually take advantage of it. Evis has no STR mod only a DEX one.


You forgot about Mordant Rime.

Also, why are people even bothering to argue against Brd melee in situations where it may be approprate? It makes little rational sense for someone to turn down the free damage contribution such that the bard's ordinary dudies are fulfilled. It seems as if this matter is less about the bard as it is about sheer egotism.

But I'd love to hear a rebuttal from someone to say that free damage as opposed to sitting around doing nothing, assuming the party has a puller already, is somehow harmful to the effectiveness of the party. Or perhaps they'd be better off doing "other things" as constructive as brd/whm that was so throughly rejected as "unnecessary" earlier in this thread.

And a final consideration; what makes you believe that higher lvl camps will have the abundence of pink birds that our current merit paradigmn relies on so heavily?

I suppose if it didn't, everyone would just leech off syncs to 99; just as they do from 20s, 37s, 55s, etc. Why exp at an area approprate for your level when leeching off powerlvls is so convinent after all?

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 10:12pm by Teiei
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#20 Mar 16 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
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Teiei wrote:
Quote:
You might have Heca, but you don't have the WS to actually take advantage of it. Evis has no STR mod only a DEX one.


You forgot about Mordant Rime.

Also, why are people even bothering to argue against Brd melee in situations where it may be approprate? It makes little rational sense for someone to turn down the free damage contribution such that the bard's ordinary dudies are fulfilled. It seems as if this matter is less about the bard as it is about sheer egotism.


I'm guessing because not many bards play outside of that box that they have grown quite comfortable in.

Addressing the Hecatomb gear being bad (lol seriously wtf?) for evisceration...I don't really know how to argue with that. Many of its pieces are the best evisceration gear pieces in the entire game. Brd can also use some decent WS pieces in place of heca...Osode, Relic Body (have you SEEN the stats on this thing), Kitty pants are pretty good evisceration pieces too.

Anyone that says Hecatomb gear is not great gear for evisceration just doesn't know what they are talking about. Not only do they have some of the largest amounts of DEX on a single piece gear for their slot, but also great chunks of STR...which is great for multi hit WS like this.

Blau is an amazing dagger, great TP options, Great WS options, dagger merits, piercing weak mobs, self tailored songs...I honestly don't see how one could intelligently argue against this.

A well geared DD bard, singing himself Mad/Minuet and getting double marches while eating crab sushi/pizza is going to be a meaningful increase in kill speed. Mobs dying faster = less time for them to hurt the dd's = less MP strain on the mages = easier, increased xp/hr.

After a certain point there are so few ways to meaningfully increase XP/HR. Adding a good chunk of DD from the second Bard is a great way to get this done.

Just because YOU'VE never done it/tried it/thought about it/wanted to do it, does not mean it is a bad idea.
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#21 Mar 16 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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****, most merit burns dont even need the lazy brd any more to be healing.


Uhh, what? BRD is anything but lazy in merits, unless you're being lazy by refusing to pull...

If you're referring to having more than one BRD in the party, I have never had an EXP party with two BRDs, ever.
I almost never partied with 2x BRD until I hit BRD 75 myself, then almost all of my parties were 2x BRD.

Only one of them managed to get more than 20k/hour, which is what we would have been getting with one less BRD and one more DD anyway. And yes, the lazy BRD in merits would be the second BRD subbing /WHM and doing minutes and ballads. Personally I'd rather they both sub /NIN and both help pull.
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#22 Mar 16 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Playing melee on bard is some of the most fun I've had in this game. I wish I could do it more often. Bard is relatively easy to hit the 25% haste cap on compared to some jobs. You can do it without expensive pieces like dusk +1, speed belt, etc. It does take some end game gear that can be difficult to get (goliard body, haidate for example) but they're not as uncommon as they once were. Meleeing bard/nin with 25% haste, dual wield traits, suppa, and quick/multi hit weapons (blau/joy is a winning combo) is really something to see. Bard has some amazing weapon skill options too, better than what a lot of actual DD jobs get, but that's already been mentioned in this thread.

And I don't think of it as something just to ***** around with, it has real potential in places such as merits. Remove one of the DDs in a standard single bard merit party, and replace them with a well equipped DD bard, dealing personal damage as well as increasing the damage of everyone else in the party through a second round of buffs. In many cases, I believe the melee bard would be more efficient.


Edited, Mar 16th 2010 6:12pm by Susanoh
#23 Mar 17 2010 at 4:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I almost never partied with 2x BRD until I hit BRD 75 myself, then almost all of my parties were 2x BRD.

Only one of them managed to get more than 20k/hour, which is what we would have been getting with one less BRD and one more DD anyway. And yes, the lazy BRD in merits would be the second BRD subbing /WHM and doing minutes and ballads. Personally I'd rather they both sub /NIN and both help pull.


2 pullers? seems like overkill if a single bard can keep a party going forever.
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#24 Mar 18 2010 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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One time in Campaign I had about 60% Haste, dual wielding Jambiya and Joyeuse.

I had, 25% Gear Haste (Wal Turban, Gol Saio, Dusk gloves, Byakko's hadit, Dusk feet, Swift belt, Angel lyre), casted double March on myself (aprox 20%) and I had a friendly Rdm cast Haste on me as well (15%).

25+20+15= 60% Haste

My dual wielded weapons had a combine delay of 425, minus 20% delay from Dual wield trait, meaning a total conbine delay of 340.

340 * 3/5 (0.60 for those who don't like fractions) = 204
340-204=134 total delay.

Well whatdayaknow, I can swing two weapons (one which double atks half the time) faster than the fastest dager in the game. Giving me a DoT of aprox, (33+35)/(136/60)

68 * (60/136) = 30 Damage per Second

Now if only I had Haste Samba to go along with it. /wishful thinking

Edit: If I did have Haste Samba (10%), it would raise my DoT to 40 dmg/sec.
And at 80% Haste, it would raise my DoT to aprox 60 damage per second.
Edit again: I wonder if 60 dmg/second is somehow the absolute cap on DPS reguardless of the weapon (all else constant, and average base damage with respects to the weapon catagory), because even Apoc with 80% haste can't break 60 damage per second. But raise the Haste cap to even 90%, and dmg potential jumps to over 100 DPS.

Edited, Mar 18th 2010 10:57am by Teiei
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#25 Mar 30 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I would give ANYTHING for this ability.

Why?

Chocobo Marzuka ^^
Pulling would be some much easier and efficent.
#26 Mar 31 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Decent
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Pulling would be some much easier and efficent.


Except for the fact that Mazurka wears off on every pull, and if anything reapplication would just slow you down...
#27 Apr 01 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Fynlar wrote:
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Pulling would be some much easier and efficent.


Except for the fact that Mazurka wears off on every pull, and if anything reapplication would just slow you down...
He must of played brd when mazurka tanking was allowed.
#28 Apr 09 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I would give ANYTHING for this ability.

Why?

Chocobo Marzuka ^^
Pulling would be some much easier and efficent.


I agree on point one, not on point two for reasons already noted above.

It may not appear as an overly useful ability, but the more I think about it the more I think it'd be a very useful addition. Not having our songs overridden could be very helpful if we were using March, lowering our recast timers, or Balled, if not pulling in a party or at some event, to further improve our supporting role. Along with a number of other possible applications.

And, dare I even suggest, putting melee songs and breaking out a dagger?
Na, I'm sure we all know what would happen, as most primary melees tend to disreguard math that doesn't pertain to their own concept of what's effective. Course, even with our songs and gear, our dagger skill is a hold back unless for whatever reason SE decides to raise it. Unlikely but one can hope eh.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 7:45pm by Teiei
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#29 Apr 09 2010 at 7:16 PM Rating: Decent
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He must of played brd when mazurka tanking was allowed.


Uhh, from my understanding, Mazurka always wore off upon attacking or being attacked, making it fairly pointless for pulling because it will wear off as soon as you pull. Sure, you can run toward your next mob to pull a little bit faster, at the cost of singing another 4-second song somewhere during the fight... you wouldn't really be saving any time, and might even be costing yourself some time.

The whole Mazurka tanking thing came from the ridiculous amounts of hate it used to pull when hitting an entire party with it -- this is what got reduced.

Edited, Apr 9th 2010 9:17pm by Fynlar
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